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Richard Thornton and the "Maya" of Georgia

3/20/2013

52 Comments

 
I’ve been writing about alternative history since 2001, when I first started publishing articles about the then-popular ideas of Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, Robert Schoch, and their friends. More recently, I’ve devoted enormous amounts of space to cataloguing the fabrications and plagiarism of David Childress, Erich von Däniken, and their friends. But in all that time, with the exception of Childress’s negative comments about me in the Chicago Reader in 2006, these alternative theorists have been content to largely avoid engaging me, probably because they never really considered my website to be much of a threat to building their audiences.

Not so the new group!  Over the past few weeks, I have apparently upset multiple alternative theorists, many of whom appeared recently on America Unearthed, and they want me to know it. The most recent is Richard Thornton, who last night wrote to suggest that I did not fully understand his hypothesis that the Creek tribe of Georgia descended from Maya gold miners from Chichen Itza. He insists that I will understand after giving him $15 for an eBook with 350 photographs that prove his position.

“I really could care less what you say,” Thornton wrote, “except you are misleading people by pretending to be an authority on something that you are not.”

My misleading “authority,” of course, is that I wrote a book on alternative history and write a blog about it. This stands in contradistinction to Thornton, whose authority is that he wrote a book about an alternative interpretation to history and runs a website about it.

I have never claimed to be an authority on ancient history, and I rely heavily (and with citations!) on the efforts of scholars who do the hard work of generating new research about the past.  Something all alternative speculators share in common is the inability to understand that the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim to provide evidence for it. The skeptic’s role is to evaluate this evidence and analyze whether it justifies accepting the claim.

Richard Thornton cannot provide a single Mesoamerican artifact found in Georgia. That’s because only one has ever been found in the whole southeastern United States—a single obsidian scraper pulled from Spiro Mounds in Oklahoma. Despite the fact that archaeologists have been looking for such connections for two centuries, Thornton claims that American archaeologists’ “unfamiliarity” with Mesoamerica prevented them from recognizing Mesoamerican constructions in America.

Instead, his evidence is the same as that offered by the Atlantis theorizers of the past: coincidences of architecture and language. He believes that the Track Rock site is shaped like a Central American pentagonal mound, and he feels that the Native village name of Itsate (as recorded by early mapmakers, not known for their phonetic fidelity) is “identical” to the Itza Maya’s word for themselves. He claims that a similar nearby place name, “Itsaye,” means the “Place of the Itza” in Itza Maya, but standard works on the Itza Mayan language give “Location of the Maya” as “Tah Itza” and its derivative Tayasal. “Itza” as a modifier typically follows the noun; it does not precede it—hence Chichen Itza (Well of the Itza) and Peten Itza (Island of the Itza).

But as Thornton points out, I am not an authority on the Maya language, and I can only report what the experts on Maya language have written. They have written that even a few coincidences of words are not enough to prove a relationship. Nor am I an expert on southeastern archaeology; there too I can only report what the archaeologists working in the region have found. Mark Williams, an archaeologist, wrote that “This is total and complete bunk. There is no evidence of Maya in Georgia.” Johannes Loubser, who excavated at the Track Rock site, concurred. Thornton has the right date for the site, c. 800-1100 CE, but scholars do not agree with him that the Creek were actually Itza Maya. The Creek, or Muscogee, descended from Mississippian mound building cultures responsible for mounds throughout the southeast. 

52 Comments
Brian Peck
3/20/2013 07:23:42 am

It is interesting that the connection with the Southwest and Mesoamerican cultures, at least through trade, is fairly clear (ballcourts, trade goods, etc.). Yet, folks like Thorton would have us believe the same, if not greater, levels of connection to the Southeast but can provide not even a fraction of the evidence that exists in the Southwest. I would love a demonstrable connection to be shown but it hasn't happened yet, and mound=pyramid ain't gonna cut it.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/20/2013 07:31:58 am

Exactly. It's like there was a sign on the Oklahoma border informing all Mesoamericans to please leave all their cultural baggage at the security desk before continuing into the Southeast.

Reply
Rick Buck
7/5/2020 10:33:36 am

I think you are completely misunderstanding his thesis. My understanding is that the Maya transited SE/GA prior to the Archaic Period. Several Cree bands went BACK. DNA boss! Connects with the LAPPs in FINLAND! Why is there so much Xena mDNA in the Chippewa/Ojibwa tribes? Minoans in Michigan? Diffused into the west, but none in the East? If polynesians could paddle from China, Lapp landers could make it to America. BADASS!

R.H. Edwards
5/5/2014 03:42:36 am

What about all the Mayan DNA markers found among Mvskoke/Muscogee people? What about some of the language similarities?

Reply
Samantha link
6/7/2017 10:18:44 am

I personally believe people already existed in the southeast as their own peoples. Creek Nation has a generally accepted creation story in which they came from the east, but each tribal town has their own creation stories. I am from Koweta (Coweta) tribal town. They say they came from the south. I believe some people may have come from Mexico. In the span of human history, any chain of events could have occurred. To think they lived that close to each other and had no knowledge of the other is absurd. If there is Mayan DNA markers in the blood, that proves undeniably that there is some type of connections, but if they didn't trade together, maybe one group or the other were slaves. Maybe small factions went up and joined the mound builder tribes. There are many possible scenarios. There is even evidence of Creeks traveling to the islands. I believe they were aware of each other. Why they didn't trade? I don't know.

Cathleen Anderson
3/20/2013 07:37:17 am

There are some big differences.

One of the biggest ones: You cite the sources. They don't, probably because they don't have reliable sources to cite.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/20/2013 07:43:45 am

Obviously, I do get things wrong now and then, which is why I think it's so important to cite sources so readers can evaluate the evidence, draw their own conclusions, and--from time to time--let me know where I've made mistakes. (Not too often, I hope!)

Reply
Shawn Flynn
3/20/2013 08:50:26 am

I bet they think your spoiling their spotlight time, diffusionist really don't get airtime unless its about Atlantis.

Reply
Sue
11/28/2013 12:23:40 pm

Aw, "diffusionist(s)" is a big word, Shawn. Must have learned it in college.

Reply
Poo
11/19/2016 09:23:03 pm

Obviously, Sue did not go to college.

Paul Cargile
4/1/2013 04:42:16 am

I'm from middle GA and this is the frist time I've ever heard this claim. Thornton must be dismissing the cultural differences between the Mississipian earthen mound builders and the Mayan stone temple builders, as if there is no limestone in Georgia from which to build stone temples. There's that and plenty of granite, but you wont see stone temples at the Ocumulgee Indian Mounds in Macon. And I never thought any of the artifacts in their musuem looked Mayan.

Sure, anyone can find that few evidence that supports their idea, but to dismiss all the other overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary is absurd.

Reply
Sue
11/28/2013 12:26:18 pm

Don't forget the very likely possibility of Georgia as a source of Maya blue. There were some small amounts in Mexico but not enough for the large quantities used. Its possible some Mayans went north and melded with the local populations. More likely is trade, always trade.

Reply
Harry Keeton, Founder, Leflore County Paranormal Society
8/4/2013 04:20:05 am

Have you ever considered the hypothesis of Vikings settling at Spiro from the Arkansas River, building a settlement trekking to Heavener, Oklahoma,signings the Runestone to establish dominance and then returning to the village.

I would love a reply and maybe even develop this hypothesis a little further possibly into an archealogical investigation Rutherford into this theory.

You can get ahold of me on Facebook and also message me at Leflore County Paranormal Society. Located on Facebook.
Sincerely,
Harry Keeton

Reply
Jason Colavito link
8/4/2013 01:37:50 pm

You'd need to establish that the Vikings traveled anywhere south of Canada before you can speculate about their alleged activities.

Reply
Jackson Nixon
3/12/2014 01:28:08 am

Jason
there has been many proven artifacts and Rune stone writings proving that the Vikings where here in the good ole US of A. Like the cave the collapsed at the Heavner rune stone. And the fact that mound builders in the US didn't appear until somewhere from 750 to 1000 CE. About the same time the Vikings where here you think they stopped on that slab Newfoundland. And they are not just mounds they are engineered houses and buildings.

Sue
11/28/2013 12:28:08 pm

There is some evidence of the Vikings in Minnesota, and I don't mean the football team:

http://www.ancientvikingsamerica.com/

Reply
Paul Johnson
10/12/2013 04:54:35 pm

With alll of the new advances in DNA research, we should be testing different indian tribes in the US and find out what their DNA holds to trace their origins.

Reply
Will Warwick
11/16/2013 05:21:34 am

Thornton claims the Creek and Cherokee from North GA have Mayan DNA.

Reply
Sue
11/28/2013 12:29:08 pm

mmmmaybe...

Sue
11/28/2013 12:30:44 pm

Bah, humbug! If man were meant to fly then he woulda given 'em wings!

Reply
Hancock
12/16/2013 07:22:51 pm

I believe Thornton is on to somethime - I think the Georgia - Maya connection is real. Something worth further research!

Reply
R.H. Edwards
5/5/2014 03:50:07 am

I agree Mr. Hancock. R. Thornton may not be 100% correct but he is on to something. One or two findings could be a coincidence but multiple findings....more than just a coincidence. Furthermore, Muskogee oral history says the Muskogee people came out of what was described as Southern Mexico/Central America region.

Reply
Samantha
6/7/2017 10:22:42 am

The generally accepted story is that they came from the east, but yes... some tribal towns claim coming up from the south.

R.H. Edwards
5/5/2014 03:50:21 am

I agree Mr. Hancock. R. Thornton may not be 100% correct but he is on to something. One or two findings could be a coincidence but multiple findings....more than just a coincidence. Furthermore, Muskogee oral history says the Muskogee people came out of what was described as Southern Mexico/Central America region.

Reply
Jason
3/6/2014 01:04:57 pm

I'm trying to contact Richard. Could you steer me in the right direction?
Thanks
JasonCulpepper@hotmail.com

Reply
Ric
4/21/2015 01:07:27 pm

You can contact him through People of One Fire.

I have seen many things first hand that makes me consider that Mr.Thornton's theory has merit. Besides, Amerindians can walk from Asia to Iceland but not from Meso-America to Florida?



ric@bigbend.net

Reply
Roy
4/29/2014 09:05:22 am

The problem with society today (especially acedemics) is that they are to scared of change. It would mean that they are wrong in what they reach and profess and that would kill them. Why is it so hard to believe that the Mayans came to north america. They went some where and they didn't just disappear. We know that. So why can't the creek be decedent's. Because you and others say so. That's not only wrong but biased as well. You say others no proff that they came to Georgia but honestly is there any completely solid proof they didn't?

Reply
Mickey Davis
8/4/2014 04:59:41 am

They did but not as early as Thornton say's. In the Creek Migration Legend it says they migrated North to the Red River to escape the Spanish Guns.

Reply
Rob Bates
10/25/2019 05:41:27 pm

Go to apalacheresearch.com and keep reading. Richard's working very hard and if you're going to debate him...better pack a big lunch LOL! Also, the Creek Confederacy was made up of survivors from many peoples in the SE.

Bijah
7/3/2014 05:49:20 am

The mound building cultures of the "American" continent began to emerge some 3,000 years ago first of all. How could anyone ever even begin to think that Vikings are responsible for OUR mounds?? Another thing... Before the white man came to this hemisphere, there were no borders and peoples moved back and forth, to trade, to marry, to visit, whatever the case, you cannot look at Native American history with European eyes. You have to learn to see through my ancestors eyes. We were not savages and I know why "the trail of tears" happened. To get my ancestors out of minds eye because they were civilized and the government couldn't claim "manifest destiny" if this country already had civilized people on it. Oh yea, and yes, Columbus himself reported trading vessels traversing the Caribbean. Don't think Natives were incapable of over-the-water trading.

Reply
Mickey Davis
8/4/2014 05:05:17 am

They had borders but not like Europeans. They had like circular zones they saw life in the form of a circle; like a Mayan calendar.

Reply
Wesa Ageya
11/27/2017 11:09:38 pm

I have just recently read Mr. Thornton's thesises, as in today recent, he seems convinced that the Cherokee are not an indeginous race at all, and I agree on all points with Bijah, the Tsalagiyi, my people have always been here...

Reply
Mickey Davis
8/4/2014 05:14:21 am

Well thornton has hit the infrastructure of the Ga. school system and some are taking his skitzoid for truth. He totally refutes the existence of the entire eastern band as being old Jews; really. He says he is a Creek Micco cause his grandma told him. His work is the most high energy bull shit ever written and I wish I could finish my research with half as much zeal.However he is just making it up as he goes along

Reply
xSamWaynex
8/6/2014 06:27:22 pm

Someone on here asked about "Maya Blue" and the author nor anyone else replied. So I would like to weigh in with my two cents on the matter, haha. Maya blue was made from a certain type of clay known as palygorskite, and the leaves of a plant called "anil" (there is a tilde over the n, but I don't know how to place it there sorry). Anyway palygorskite as well as anil, or indigo plant, can be found in Georgia. But this clay can also be found in Mexico, just not nearly as abundant as was needed to account for the amount of Maya blue. However this in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the Mayan culture as a whole moved north to the state of Georgia and the immediate surrounding areas. This simply proves that there was trade among the two cultures. This could also be the reason why certain words are so similar, and the fact that there is Mayan DNA in the tribes of Georgia and the surrounding areas. We know that tribes traded with one another, as well as inter-married, so why are people so gung ho about there not being a connection? All I am saying is, the possibility needs to be taken into account, instead of just dismissed. When there is no further inquiry on a subject the scientific process stops. Don't dismiss something simply because it goes against what was taught, or because you don't want it to be true. Because when the truth if found out, if you were on the opposite side you look like a jackass, and quite frankly I don't like looking like a jackass. I don't straddle the fence on many subjects, but this is one time I have to.

Reply
Mikey K
9/18/2014 05:10:23 am

I have gotten my dna analyzed two years ago and I also have paper evidence of my Native Creek ancestor who was from Harris County Georgia, who was only part Creek. My autosmal DNA did have Maya in it. Also the Maya, and Creeks look similar in appearance and do share words like other posters above me have said. I believe Thornton is right the Creek are part Maya and were in Georgia building pyramid like mounds, but I do agree with you all above that his facts need to be ironed out more and better proof especially that the Creeks are the Maya.

Reply
Pepper
11/17/2014 08:55:36 am

Perhaps someone should tell Thornton that the phrase is "I COULDNT care less" because if he cared very much about what you say the the phrase "I could care less" still works.

Reply
Pepper
11/17/2014 09:00:01 am

Perhaps someone should tell Thornton that the phrase is "I COULDNT care less" because if he cared very much about what you say the the phrase "I could care less" still works.
Perhaps someone should tell Thornton that the phrase is "I COULDNT care less" because if he cared very much about what you say the phrase "I could care less" still works.

Reply
Marian E.Smith
2/6/2015 04:39:11 am

I have lived among the Cherokee in North Carolina & in Oklahoma since 1982. They tell the world in their museum in NC, that they obtained corn from the Mayans about 1000 years ago. It is also said that the middle, or Kituwah Cherokee dialect contains Itza Mayan words.
I am no authority, but this is what they have told me & their oral tradition supports this as well!

Reply
david west ret sc dept of agriculture
2/17/2015 12:13:17 pm

Richard, would like to talk 864-812-2064

Reply
Helena Atkins
3/29/2015 07:41:34 am

I receive email from Richard Thornton and I would like to receive yours to. I just shared this article to my Facebook. And will try to share it to my Pinterest Board too.

Reply
Bo Sewell link
4/21/2015 11:34:00 am

Only recently following the programs and the post above. I am no scientist or expert but am an avid thinker and what strikes me more particularly is the Southern states that open onto the Gulf of Mexico would share the water with shore Mayans who could find food and had boats and all the skills to move as curiosity propelled them. Rivers would be a welcome break from being on the water and a way to move inland without having to master new skills. Any trade opportunities would lead to exchanges benefiting both sides and ongoing collaboration. As a result of the tv episode I went to Fort Mountain and found plaques along side the Track.
The aluminum plaques brought up two other items: the Moon Faced People and separately boats from Wales (UK) landed in Mobil in 1170 and had something to do with the Ft Mountain site. I have some iPad pics. There should be more on the web and you can check it out. What appears conclusive is we are all interested and it is pretty cool for a native Georgian to find this different way of looking at my State! Did you guys know there are mountain lions living East of Fort Mountain? I was shocked. Glad for the energy and spirit of these exchanges. Another item of interest are the three tribes around Lake Okeechoobee in Florida: Mayimi, Mayayuaka and Mayaka. Let's keep going with this.

Reply
Tracey Brogan
7/18/2015 09:01:33 am

We have the American Stonehenge over our way which is similar with the sun directions.

Reply
Mitchell McNeely
8/13/2015 07:50:05 am

Just remember people were put to death and tortured in the past for saying the world wasn't flat and that the sun didn't revolve around the earth.Mr.Thornton may well be at least in some instances correct.No one in academia likes to admit they are not correct.

Reply
Kris
8/22/2015 06:07:36 pm

Jason,

Thanks for the informative article!

I noticed that Richard Thornton guy has made dismissive comments on other blogs that question his work and even threatened legal action in his comments on a particular blog post.

He also claimed to have found a 28 ft stone statue on the Oconee river. No pics of the statue of course ;) He went on with claims some paramilitary force is responsible for the inability for shows like Nat Geo and History Channel to get filming permits at Track Rock.

Oh, he also threatened a female blogger that his lawyer knew her address. Which is basically a veiled threat of, "I know where you live.

This Thornton guy appears to be a real creep.


Reply
Samantha link
6/7/2017 10:50:00 am

I agree that Thornton is a creep. I've had it out with him myself, but not all of it is incorrect. Plenty of details in regard to Creek culture is correct. However, Creek Nation isn't one tribe. Each tribal town was its own tribe, really. Its a band of mismatched peoples that came together during and after the Indian slave trade. I believe the Yamasee War ended indian slave trade for the most part, which is what brought about the heavy influx of slaves from Africa. Its all broken pieces of many cultures. Those people could have come from anywhere. They had, for the most part, similar languages which is partially what brought them together, but the Hitchiti language is very different and they are Creek also, technically. We have no idea where the Mayan blood came from, but in the span of human history, most any chain of events is possible. The Creeks as a whole, share a general consensus that they came from the east, but individual tribal towns have their own creation and origin stories. Koweta (Coweta), my tribal town, believes they came from the south and settled on the southern Alabama/Georgia border. You're talking about the history of one group which in itself has people coming from all over the southeast and Mexico. Its a clusterf*ck. Pardon the language, but you could name almost any plausible scenario and its probably somewhat true for some people at some point in time.

Reply
Rob J
8/23/2021 05:30:31 pm

I agree... to think that the Mayans w/all their intelligence, skills & technical advancements wouldn't have been able to venture to the Southeast of "North America" seems to be somewhat ignorant. I mean, they were known to be very good on the water & had vessels capable of traveling long distances over water; not to mention how they were believed to have incredible stamina in being able to walk or even run for miles & miles at a time.... so to me, it's EXTREMELY PLAUSIBLE they'd have migrated to or simply traded w/other tribes in those areas...

Reply
Drew
2/12/2018 05:03:00 pm

I am intrigued--especially after reading Charles Mann's most recent edition of 1491.
Where did maize originate as a food/growing substance? How did it get to Georgia?
How is it that in the "creation stories" of Southeastern tribes, they refer to themselves as traveling toward the sunrise (i.e., TO the east, not from it), that they were cast out of their home of origin, out of Creator/Sun's graces, and therefore seeking the origins of the Sun (the sunrise) in order to try to make amends?
To my mind, I can easily envision the Mvskoke creation story as implicating a Central American origin (because of the active volcanoes).

Reply
jerry fortner
8/13/2018 12:31:33 pm

I have been in the relics business for 57 years now. Also, have
traveled widely doing digs and exploring sites. I have found a lot
of great relics and have also purchased a vast quanity which I
sell. I have, over the years heard of the Maya connection to
Florida and Georgia. I found a birdstone in Georgia which are
usually found in the northern states, though some have been found in a few southern states. Those are believed to be trade
items. The interesting thing about the birdstone I found in Georgia, is that it is made from Mexican alabaster! It means that
the artifact was traded from Mexico or the stone was. That is
the only place Mexican alabaster is found. It I not hard to believe that the Maya didn't said to the American coast. They
were experts at building sea going boats. Just my comment.

Reply
Jim D link
1/12/2020 10:24:54 pm

I own property near Etowah. We’ve found more than a dozen bird stones, eye ball stones, and obsidian points and shards on our property in Georgia. Our place is on Euharlee creek on a south facing peninsula and is inaccessible to logging and farming equipment. There’s a weir, burnt rock midden and several rock burial mounds on our property which we don’t disturb.

Reply
Tina
5/1/2019 03:08:31 pm

My father in law is full blood Creek & told me they migrated from Mexico and left mounds behind every season & he speaks Creek & says he can understand most of their language. I started researching this bc I'm from a northern tribe & I discovered that the Myan believe that men came by sea & mixed with Myans at the yucatan & those people became the Cherokee Cherokee traditional headgear is a turban. Interesting, my husband also speaks the Creek language & visits the georgia sites often.

Reply
Jim D link
1/12/2020 10:18:44 pm

I own property on Euharlee creek about five miles from Etowah. There’s a burnt rock midden on my property, a weir and several rock burial mounds. We’ve found over a dozen obsidian artifacts and hundreds of shards. There’s also a chert quarry and many rock anvils with all manner of shard surrounding them including obsidian, chert, quartz, amethyst, jasper and so on. Our property is also close to the Leake site and Ladds mountain. We’ve got hundreds of points, tomahawks, mortar and pistols, quarry hand tools, sharps, scrapers, and so on. Would you like to see and analyze some obsidian found in Georgia? Would you like to excavate some yourself? I can put you on it. There are also many other complex stone tools on our property and several in mapped earthen mounds upstream. Our property is inaccessible to farm and logging equipment. There are stone tools and artifacts everywhere. Come see for yourself.

Reply
Zach E
5/21/2020 12:08:20 pm

Say what you will about Richard Thornton personally -- he does seem like a creep -- but he is on to something. I do take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt, as one of his biggest flaws is exaggeration and/or the reporting of incomplete information. But even looking past these things the Maya/Creek connection has a lot of merit. Not only is there Mayan DNA in Creek peoples, but their plants are here. Ever hear of maize-beans-squash? Well, that comes straight out of the Mesoamerica milpa, as practiced by contemporary Mayan peoples like the Lakandon and Yucatec. And another plant come out of the Yucatan too -- pink moonflower or Ipomoea macrorhiza. It is like jalap, and grows not only in the Yucatan, but also on Indian Shell Middens in the southeastern coastal plain of the so-called USA. Oh, and how about the Maya'mi (Miami) of Florida, who seem to have migrated to the Illinois/Indiana area during European colonization. Not only did they have landrace varieties of Mesoamerican winter squash (Cucurbita maxima -- even though contemporary archaeologists believe only summer squashes Cucurbita pepo were in the lower 48), but they also had a tribal name which superficially resembled "Maya" (Maya'mi).

Linguistically this may not mean much, as the Maya didn't actually go around calling themselves "Maya." However, it is thought to mean "big water" and Maya'mi gets commonly associated with Lake Okeechobee. But what if "big water" actually refers to the Gulf, their place of origin/travel?

Further confounding things are words like "asimin" -- the Miami word for "pawpaw," as reported by Laudonierre among the Illinois band of Miami in the 17th century, from where we derive the Latin genus name "Asimina." The pawpaw, Asimina triloba, has custard-apple cousins in Mesoamerica, such as Annona reticulata and Annona scleroderma. The superficial similarities are striking. Among the Lakandon Maya, some of these wild forms of custard apple are given names like oop'tsimin, which transliterated means something like "tapir custard apple" (conveying a meaning like "wild custard apple fit for tapirs"). If we imagine a scenario where a Mayan culture traveled northeast across the Gulf waters or along the coastal plain, arrived in Florida, and found the wild pawpaws there, it seems probable that they would name them something like "a-simin" / "oop-tsimin," due to the strong superficial resemblance between Asimina triloba and Annona reticulata/scleroderma.

There are just way too many similarities to discount.

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        • Fragments on Giants
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