Yesterday a blogger posted a lengthy review of Saturday’s America Unearthed episode, and while I don’t agree with all of the points made in it, I did appreciate that it was harsher and meaner than anything I’ve written—going so far as to describe Wolter’s normal mode of operation as “belligerent.” Somehow, however, no fans of Scott Wolter have visited her blog to complain about her handling of the program or to insist that it’s only entertainment. The blogger rightly focused, as did I, on Dr. Roberto Rodriguez, and his bizarre claims about maps. I find his claims fascinating—not because they’re true but because they are so designed to twist history in order to further a Mexican immigration-reform agenda. I’d like to explore Dr. Rodriguez’s ideas a bit more. Rodriguez earned a PhD in Mass Communication from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2008, but before this he spent several decades as a journalist and a newspaper columnist. He is not a trained Aztec migration expert as America Unearthed asserted. His wife Patrisia Gonzalez was also a newspaper columnist, and together they published a collection of their writings on race and immigration issues called Gonzales/Rodriguez Uncut & Uncensored (1997). Rodriguez must also be the same Roberto Rodriguez who wrote Justice: A Question of Race that same year, detailing his two-decade struggle to understand white anti-Mexican racism following his beating by (white) sheriff’s deputies in Los Angeles while serving as a journalist in 1979, and the subsequent civil suit he attempted to bring against the officers involved. Following this event, Rodriguez devoted his life to advocating for the rights of Mexican and Latino immigrants to the United States. This took a turn into fringe history in 1998 when Rodriguez accepted fringe historical ideas in order to promote the political idea that the United States was the natural and original homeland of the Mexicans and therefore should not restrict immigration from Latin America, particularly Mexico. In 1998, Rodriguez and his wife learned about an 1847 map made in conjunction with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo (it be viewed at large size here), which would end the Mexican-American War with the cession of a large area of Mexican territory to the United States in 1848. Under the terms of the treaty, Mexicans living in newly-American territory could become U.S. citizens, and 90% did. Rodriguez claimed that the map “indisputably” shows the ancient homeland of the Aztecs, the “Antigua Residencia de los Aztecas,” in the Four Corners region of what is now the U.S. The map does indeed show this, but it shows it in 1847, which is more than three decades after Baron Alexander von Humboldt popularized the Aztec myth (known in scholarly literature long before) that the Aztec had come from the north. The map applies the name to what is very likely the ruins of Chaco Canyon or Mesa Verde, which had then been known for at least twenty years. (Chaco Canyon was officially discovered in 1823.) I would consider it more than likely that the mapmaker was applying the Aztec myth to the Anasazi (Ancestral Pueblo) cliff dwellings in an attempt to explain the brick ruins in terms of a known high culture rather than attributing them to the Native Americans, whom America had just removed from their lands under the theory that they were culturally backward and benighted savages who lacked the rudiments of high culture. A second supposed Aztec homeland (“Ruinas de las Casas 2das de los Aztecas”) is also marked on the map along the Gila River, correlating very closely with the Casa Grande ruins, known since 1687 and explored by the Spanish in 1694 and the 1700s and by the United States in 1846. This correlation helps to prove that the U.S. mapmaker was attempting to name Anasazi ruins in terms of the Aztec migration myth. Additional Aztec sites are listed further down in Mexico. Rodriguez, however, points to a 1771 Spanish map by Nicholas de Lafora, which depicts the “Casas de Montezuma” in the same location on the Gila River. He claims this proves that the U.S. mapmaker wasn’t making up an Aztec connection to America, but given that this site correlates very closely to the known ruins of Casa Grande, described in Spanish literature back to the 1600s, this doesn’t really prove what he thinks it does. It only shows that the Spanish assumed that the ruins had belonged to the Aztecs when they first stumbled across them. Indeed, when we review the relevant literature, we find that indeed the Spanish historians of the 1700s had wrongly attributed the Gila ruins to the Aztecs, as the U.S. Department of the Interior reported in its official report on the Gila Ruins in 1913. The confusion occurred because the Spanish missionary who found Casa Grande in 1687, Father Eusebio Francisco Kino, mistakenly believed Casas Grande was Chichilticalli, a semi-mythical city seen by Coronado and wrongly though to be the northern stronghold of the Aztecs (not their homeland). Later historians followed Kino and associated the Aztecs with Casas Grande, and thus also with similar Pueblo ruins across what was then the Mexican northwest, now the U.S. southwest. The U.S. government itself published what Rodriguez claims as his own “discovery,” that old Spanish and Mexican maps assigned the “Aztecs” to various Pueblo sites. By the time of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, there was apparently a wrongheaded idea that the Anasazi and Pueblo sites were the successive occupations of the Aztecs on their mythical southern journey from Aztlán. This was an artifact of the colonial period, not a genuine Aztec belief. We know this because we have the documentation of who first saw each ruin and what they called them. The Aztecs themselves said nothing of the Pueblo, though there was obviously influence from Mesoamerica in the desert southwest, such as the Mexican-style ball court at Hohokam. It was this cultural diffusion that helped cement the idea that the “Aztecs” had once ruled the southwest. Later, as knowledge grew, scholars recognized that the Aztecs were too recent to have been associated with these pueblos and instead assigned them to the Toltecs, from which we find the fringe history idea that the Jews who cast the Tucson Lead Artifacts battled the Toltecs! The idea of a more distant migration for the Aztecs than the (current) Mexican-U.S. border derives from Alexander von Humboldt, who in 1810 wrongly calculated mathematically from a literal reading of the Aztec origin myth that they had walked from the forty-second parallel; from Josiah Priest, who popularized the claim; and from Joseph Smith, who made it part of the teachings of the Mormon church in his “Traits of the Mosaic History Found among the Aztaeca Nations.” As mentioned, when the U.S. began surveying the Pueblo ruins in the 1840s, officials recognized they were not culturally connected to the Aztec and the Aztec name dropped off the maps. It wasn’t a conspiracy but science; it is only the failure of Rodriguez to connect the older map sites to Anasazi or Pueblo ruins that makes it look like one. Rodriguez, however, admitted in his 2008 PhD dissertation, whose subject was trans-continental indigenous corn myth communication over the past 7,000 years, that the site of Casas Grande was likely the site identified as an Aztec habitation on the maps, but he denied that this had anything to do with Spanish exploration or historiography. Instead, he asserts that the idea came from “pre-Columbian codices (and oral traditions) and chronicles that recorded these oral traditions.” He can’t name any, however, and instead points to a map made in 1940 (!) as showing the Olmec migrating to Mexico from Michigan, which I have not seen and cannot evaluate on its merits. Perhaps it was attempting to show very early migrations from Asia and the peoples who much later arose from their descendants. Rodriguez concluded that Eurocentric bias prevented Western scholars from recognizing indigenous maps, many of which were destroyed. What remains, in the form of picture-writing, looks to Westerners like art. Therefore, he explains, indigenous maps can only be understood in terms of myth, specifically corn myths, allowing him to follow Humboldt in assigning geographic correlates to each aspect of the Aztec migration myth based on what I can only describe as “looks like, therefore is.” But even Humboldt recognized this didn’t work very well since there are no palm trees in the northern lands where he wanted to put Aztlán despite the appearance of palm trees on indigenous “maps” of the mythic location. All of this, though, received a preview in 1998, when Rodriguez and his wife reported on the 1847 map: “To us, it’s as if the map has lifted an oppressive aura of ‘suspicion’ from the psyche of Mexicans/Central Americans—populations that have been deemed to be illegitimate by some in U.S. society.” For them, identifying the Aztecs with the United States legitimized Latino presence in America as natural and sanctioned by history. But there was more. The two authors took inspiration from Cecilio Orozco, a professor of education at Cal State, who used what he called “archaeo-astronomy” and a photograph of four rivers in Utah to determine that the Great Salt Lake must be the original Aztec homeland. He had based his work on that of the Mexican scholar Alfonso Rivas-Salmón. The short version is that for him the Aztec words Nahuatl (four waters) and Huehuetlapallan (place of many colors) meant the four rivers that cut across the “colorful” rocks of Utah. (Remember: “looks like, therefore is.”) He further asserted that Quetzalcoatl was the “Egyptian” phoenix, and that all of this was encoded in “mathematical formulae” in Utah petroglyphs—despite the phoenix being a Greek myth, possibly distorting the Egyptian solar benu bird. He turned this into a one-hour course he provided, for a fee, to those interested in learning about the “greatness” of Native Americans. Orozco died in 2012. Here’s how Rodriguez and Gonzales discussed Orozco and the 1847 map in 1998: The moral argument used against Mexicans in the immigration debate -- that they are invading aliens -- has been rendered completely baseless by Orozco's research and the [1847] map. It ends the debate. He [Orozco] related that he spends lots of time presenting this information to children so that they know that "our roots are absolutely here in the United States." […] No child should ever be made to feel like an alien anywhere in the world. This map, to the chagrin of xenophobes, moves our society in a better direction. In short, Rodriguez and Gonzales wanted the map to serve as proof that Mexicans were indigenous to the United States and therefore were rightful occupants of the land.
In his PhD dissertation, Rodriguez took this still further, directly asserting that the maps he claimed to be evidence of Aztec occupation of America serve as inspiration for Chicano/a people and “proclaimed Indigeneity to lands in which Mexicans had traditionally been framed by the U.S. master-narrative as aliens and unwanted strangers.” Further, these maps have “created a new narrative and a new identity for peoples who, a generation ago, still accepted the imposed alien frames of mainstream society” and declared the story of the Aztec and Toltec origins of America “an ancient one.” That’s a lot of weight to place on a Spanish map mix-up, and it’s also vaguely imperialistic in a new direction, creating a modern myth to situate Latinos in a modern American context while, again, denying the Native Americans their own heritage since in this reading they are simply adjacent to the superior cultures of Mexico. It also shows that mass communication programs have no concept of history and let all sorts of unjustifiable fringe history nonsense pass through under the guise of “communication” studies. Such claims have largely escaped the notice of archaeology because they are sequestered in the morass of communication and ethnic studies. How does one get a PhD in Mass Communication writing about Aztec origin theories and prehistoric, trans-continental corn myths? This research really ought to be anthropology, not communication (mass or otherwise), but I suppose if he tried to do so, anthropologists would be unlikely to accept it, not least for the reasons outlined above.
158 Comments
Fantasy History Watcher
1/20/2014 07:09:38 am
Having a PhD doesn't mean anything. A long list of pseudohistorians, believers in the paranormal, believers in ancient astronauts holding PhDs can easily be developed
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1/20/2014 07:11:22 am
Certainly; I was more shocked that he slipped so much fringe history into his dissertation.
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A Lydia Necochea
4/27/2020 02:53:10 pm
All of you have who have commented negatively on Roberto Rodriguez writings are university educated, and so what! That doesn't change the fact that you all are descendants of the real immigrants, squatters who arrived to North America and committed genocide on my ancestors, destroyed, looted and burnt most of our knowledge, all in the name of the Crown and/or Church. Forced Christianity and everything else upon us, your power is an illusion, that has gotten in our minds, your manifest destiny, racist laws, reservations and borders, dismantled daily
spookyparadigm
1/20/2014 09:45:32 am
Getting one from a real department at a serious school is more than the usual correspondence course PhD you see some pseudoscientists display. That's a different problem than what is described here.
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Steve
1/20/2014 03:57:13 pm
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Walt
1/20/2014 04:32:59 pm
You left out "This might have made a good episode of America Unearthed, but it would have meant exploring real science rather than seeing Scott Wolter in a submarine."
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/20/2014 04:49:19 pm
Okay, but … other than THAT … ???
Steve
1/20/2014 05:00:14 pm
Exactly, Rev. Phil,
Clint Knapp
1/20/2014 05:15:47 pm
To which you'll pick one word out of and cry fouler, and the cycle will continue. 1/20/2014 11:49:04 pm
If I read you correctly, Steve, you have taken issue with a subjective point about whether one review was harsher than another, on which we apparently have a difference of opinion. You then state that unless I respond to each of your 12 self-selected points, any response is illegitimate.
Steve
1/21/2014 12:41:59 am
Let's review why your website exists, shall we Jason? 1/21/2014 01:26:42 am
Scott Wolter appeals to "dualism," "the sacred feminine," and other supernatural concepts as the driving force behind the Templars, and in this episode he discussed a mythic sea monster. Since he is exploring how his chosen groups have allegedly employed the supernatural, I don't see how this goes beyond my general mission statement.
Shane Sullivan
1/20/2014 07:40:30 am
Does this mean that people of mixed Aztec-European ancestry are only half welcome in the United States?
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RLewis
1/20/2014 08:42:40 am
So, if you can trace your ancestors back to another country - then you are actually native to that country. I guess that makes all of the white people in the US aliens. Damn foreigners.
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Coridan
1/20/2014 10:48:16 pm
I demand to be considered a citizen in my family's homeland(s)! Lenape nation, England, Scotland, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany and Slovakia. I rserve the right to pay taxes to only one of them (my choice).
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RLewis
1/21/2014 12:38:03 am
I also want all of the Mexicans to go back where the came from - Spain. I mean, they speak nearly the same language so they must have originated from there - right?
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J.A. Dickey
1/21/2014 07:56:27 am
Curiously enough, FDR is thought to have begun an address to
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Dave Lewis
1/20/2014 10:32:12 am
I posted a link to the Slate article about the charter school in Lewisville Texas using the right wing history book to a neighborhood web page yesterday and already received hate mail accusing me of having a religious and political agenda! I never thought of myself as smart enough to have any kind of agenda! Please excuse me if I come off as a pseudo-intellectual for a few days.
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1/20/2014 12:33:19 pm
Obviously, I need as many bodyguards as Steven Greer and David Wilcock!
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Prone
1/20/2014 04:24:10 pm
If fringe types like Greer and Wilcock genuinely believe everything they say, then there is a big gap in the market for personal security services which guard against hostile aliens, the illuminati, Smithsonian black bag operations and the like.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/20/2014 04:39:37 pm
"Don't cross the streams … It would be bad … "
Scott David Hamilton
1/20/2014 10:42:41 am
The underlying assumption in Rodriguez's work is really interesting. Basically, he's assuming maps reflect reality, rather than the mapmaker's perception of reality. It a bit like the Sovereign Citizens movement with its treatment of certain passages of law like they're magic able to mold reality, though I suppose with the completely opposite political agenda.
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1/20/2014 12:35:26 pm
It's kind of like the ancient astronaut theorists, who want us to read ancient texts literally. Rodriguez doesn't seem to allow for speculation, imagination, or even misperception. If a map says something, than gosh-darn-it, it was really there.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/20/2014 04:13:16 pm
For sure, infamously, "the map is not the territory" …
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/20/2014 02:55:40 pm
I don't understand why it is a PROBLEM to acknowledge some widely accepted facts, e.g., that some Native American peoples DID migrate to "new" areas …
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Only Me
1/20/2014 03:45:33 pm
Native American migrations aren't the problem.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/20/2014 04:00:54 pm
Exactly …
J.A. Dickey
1/21/2014 08:02:23 am
also, on the old maps... i do believe there is a 1/20/2014 05:00:09 pm
Yesterday I raised a legitimate question about Scott Wolter`s ( a certified geologist) methodology,since,while investigating the so called "Rock Lake Aztec underwater pyramids",Scott Wolter never even approached the issue related to Wisconsin geology & the formation/creation of Rock Lake.
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1/20/2014 09:16:18 pm
Rev Phil Gotsch.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 01:58:38 am
Scott Wolter does NOT "'pretend' to be a geologist" …
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Tara Jordan
1/21/2014 03:31:25 am
Yes indeed,this is why it is unacceptable & disgraceful for someone who qualifies as certified geologist,to be engaged in such floppy pseudo scientific investigation.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 04:07:10 am
Tara …
The Other J.
1/21/2014 09:54:48 am
He's a geologist who claims authority based on his credentials, then discards the best practices of that discipline in favor of unproven and nonsensical methods, and then demands his claims be accepted based on his credentials.
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Dave Lewis
1/21/2014 05:46:05 am
When I was a kid I heard someone say that when you learn a new word you should use it ten times that day to help you remember it.
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Gunn
1/21/2014 05:49:36 am
Though I don't agree with Tara's style of communicating any more than I do Jason's, because of the harsh overtones, she brings up a valid point: a simple geologic survey (even online) would show how the lake water accumulated and probably even reveal a time-table, based on the water source. Is there a natural spring or springs? Is there a creek run-off, or more than one, or none? How much has the lake water levels see-sawed, according to available data? Was the basin ever empty enough to build pyramid -like structures?
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Tara Jordan
1/21/2014 06:48:21 am
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 08:16:03 am
Tara --
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Gunn
1/21/2014 12:18:11 pm
Phil, I think what she means is that she, herself, likes to be engaged in personal attacks, hate communications, sexual slurs, etc., and that she's a tough girl. She expects nothing less from the other side, and she says it doesn't bother her. At least she's being honest...I think.
Only Me
1/21/2014 01:16:19 pm
"My name is Scott Wolter, and I'm a forensic geologist."
The Other J.
1/21/2014 01:26:43 pm
Gunn, you still don't have this down; "biting your tongue" is a figure of speech, not a metaphor. 1/21/2014 05:59:41 pm
Rev.Phil Gotsch
Tara, I suspect you don't wish to be mean-spirited or come across as mean-spirited. But, as with Jason, it's simple enough to make a point in a more respectful manner. People can still read in-between the lines if it's done right. I've known folks who swear all the time "for effect," but the effect wears down after a while, like in the way of The Boy Who Cried Wolf! You can come across as a nicer person, but it'll take some work.
The Other J.
1/22/2014 06:30:11 am
So you consulted a dictionary but only came up with a category, not a definition -- and you wonder why some of us question your interpretive acumen? You need to read a little more carefully.
mike
1/21/2014 07:42:46 am
So if we accept Roberto's argument, then any Italians from the Tuscany region can immigrate to Israel or Turkey or that area since the Etrucians came from that area...
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Jen
1/21/2014 01:59:53 pm
I was so excited about this show when I first discovered it. It has unfortunately gone from bad to really really bad. The set up scenes, SW feigning surprise at revelations, he already knows, the inconsistent and lack of detail... the fact he always seems to run out of tide, battery, light and foresight to follow through on getting conclusions... Best thing about this blog is finding out more information, debunking or getting a clearer picture of subject in the episodes. Thanks to you and your comments section. America Unearthed is a shocker! We watch it now, purely for a laugh, and to try and guess which bar he will end up in and which mode of transport/line of questioning will he follow to come to nothing. #ridic
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 02:53:52 pm
(IMHO) the H2 "America Unearthed" TV shows are NOT of the nature and quality of, say, "NOVA" or "Frontline," but they have genuine positive value in stimulating discussion of and interest in North American history and pre-history ...
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Only Me
1/21/2014 03:20:31 pm
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same mantra, people will continue to express their opinions of the show. It doesn't matter if you agree with those opinions or not, at least be respectful enough to quit piggy-backing on them to continuously repeat the same weak excuses.
jen
1/21/2014 03:32:20 pm
Hi Rev, not sure if I'm posting in the right place, as I've only been on here a few hours. Seems like AU has a big budget and resourses, there is no reason why it cant be more than what it is. It's very full of nothing. The continuous repeated updates of what? Nothing... I'd just like to reiterate, that I'm glad to have found this blog, its a lot more helpful than AU, in my thirst for historical context.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 03:43:52 pm
For sure …
Paul Cargile
1/22/2014 12:37:57 am
You know, if Acient Aliens and American Unearthed were on the SyFy Channel, no one would care about the content as much. People expect fiction on the SyFy Channel.
I like the way you boiled this down, Phil. Remedial inclusions will do the trick, too, I think. I like this method, myself, in promoting an object of great affection.
The Other J.
1/22/2014 07:09:58 am
Gunn said: "Well, the problem for you, Paul, and Jason, even, is that some fringe history ultimately comes true. This is an inescapable fact, seen by the Vikings' visit to Newfoundland."
Gunn
1/23/2014 03:14:06 am
The OtherJ., I wish you would bite your tongue. Figurative or literal? We'll go with it as a degenerated metaphor. L'Anse Aux Meadows was on the fringes, Foul Man. It would've stayed undiscovered, perhaps, if a dedicated team hadn't taken the time to study, yes, fringe literature. I would venture to guess that even Jason sees the Sagas as fringe literature...at least in some respects.
Walt
1/21/2014 05:07:03 pm
A great example in this episode is when he refused to surface in the submarine several times. What was the point? I expect an intelligent person to surface when the sub expert says it's time to surface, then go back down when the sub expert says to go back down. They actually seem to think viewers will be impressed, as if it takes bravado rather than stupidity.
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Jen
1/21/2014 03:47:13 pm
Rev... are you patronising me? I'm not looking for confrontation here. Just like to say, I'm a grown up and a free thinker. Thanks.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 03:53:54 pm
Jen --
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jen
1/21/2014 04:04:16 pm
LOL right ok Rev, I have noticed your other comments. I take that as a yes. You appear to have an agenda. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, without saying it with your 'caps and ... '
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 04:17:34 pm
Jen --
Matt Mc
1/22/2014 02:43:50 am
I like how Rev states on someone elses bog what is up for discussion.
Gunn
1/22/2014 05:12:12 am
For Matt McNutt:
Only Me
1/21/2014 04:17:29 pm
Jen, for what it's worth, welcome to the blog. If you intend to stick around, you'll find Jason has a *lot* of interesting reads to enjoy.
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jen
1/21/2014 04:25:58 pm
@Only Me, thank you : ) @ The Rev, ahhh ok, personal friend, I see. Well I would want to defend my friend also. However, I would also want to have a talk with them about substance and quality and misrepresentation. Lets leave it at that shall we Rev? Not wanting to have the last word, just dont want to do this any longer :)
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/21/2014 04:32:08 pm
Scott Wolter is the host of a TV show produced and distributed for commercial purposes, i.e., to attract and hold an audience that will see the paid adverts …
Only Me
1/21/2014 06:25:08 pm
Who knew a continuous playback loop could double as an argument?
RLewis
1/22/2014 02:02:15 am
Rev, you must stop playing the "it's only entertainment" card. If SW began each show saying "These are controversial topics that we feel should be to explored further" - then OK (maybe). But instead he states that the history we were taught is wrong, that it has been manipulated by a conspiracy of academia and government officials , and that he is going to tell us the truth. He has written several books/articles and appeared on multiple media outlets making the same claims.
Matt Mc
1/22/2014 02:04:22 am
Rev.
Gunn
1/22/2014 05:21:23 am
Only Me, by now you should know that life is a circle...the continuous playback loop is working. It's repeat advertising, man. Get with the program.... 1/22/2014 05:47:31 am
RLewis says: "But instead he states that the history we were taught is wrong, that it has been manipulated by a conspiracy of academia and government officials , and that he is going to tell us the truth."
Only Me
1/22/2014 07:16:49 am
Sorry, Gunn, there's only so many times I can read the same response to the same point before it gets old. At this point, I'm just having fun.
RLewis
1/22/2014 01:06:17 pm
OK Rev, you got your theory (and profession of man-love for SW) in yet again. Of course it had nothing to do with the previous comments - but there you go.
Kevin
1/22/2014 12:34:34 am
Does this sound like people you have read here?
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 02:14:16 am
I don't say, "It's only 'entertainment'" …
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1/22/2014 02:17:54 am
The Aztec are not known for certain to have originated in the United States. The best consensus is that they migrated from what is now northwestern Mexico or, possibly, extremely southern California. The latter is considered less likely.
RLewis
1/22/2014 02:41:08 am
To be clear, I am characterizing your following statements as equal to "just entertainment" :
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 02:45:36 am
The Aztec language has ties to other groups including the Ute, Shoshone, Hopi, Pima, and others …
RLewis
1/22/2014 02:54:30 am
If you go back far enough, everybody migrated from somewhere. Not really that educational or surprising (and not necessarily AMERICAN history).
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 03:15:53 am
Oh, yes, historic relationships between "The United States" and "Latin America" certainly DO figure in North American history and pre-history, and of course, as Scott Wolter correctly says in his standard intro to the AU shows, "Some of what we were taught … is WRONG …"
RLewis
1/22/2014 04:07:22 am
Seized? What are you talking about? How can a signed treaty - with a significant amount of money exchanged - be characterized as seized?
Steve
1/22/2014 04:08:18 am
Regarding Scott, above in this comment thread Jason wrote, '…even though he is acting out someone else's script?' 1/22/2014 04:18:17 am
Steve, I was making a rhetorical point based on Phil's comments. It was a rhetorical point that, pointedly, was meant purposely to be contrary to reality. I was trying to prompt Phil to either admit or deny that Wolter is responsible for his own statements. Such context escapes you. That said, the show has two credited scriptwriters on most episodes. Are you suggesting that the show is falsely crediting them with writing the show?
Steve
1/22/2014 04:48:54 am
Quite right, Jason. I did not read it as a rhetorical point. And I don't believe that you meant it that way, despite your explanation. Had you meant it rhetorically, you should have thought to put full quotation marks around it. Here's an example: 1/22/2014 04:55:50 am
I'm a bit confused, Steve. You're saying that there was a plan, that it was written down, and that it served as a guide for deciding what to film, what subjects to explore, and where to go, but that following this outline is not the same as acting out the script?
Steve
1/22/2014 05:35:43 am
'following this outline' is 'the same as acting out [a] script' 1/22/2014 05:44:22 am
It would be rather difficult to "squirm" out of a point you never made. What exactly is your point? I made a rhetorical statement designed to prompt Phil to offer some consistency in his views. You attacked that as dishonesty and lies, and then you accused me of various thought crimes. When I pointed to the fact that my rhetorical statement could be supported with reference to Wolter's own statements, you immediately declared this a hateful thought crime as well. Since you are the expert on all things Wolter, please enlighten us: Is he or is he not responsible for the material that goes out in his name?
Steve
1/22/2014 08:36:28 am
"Since you are the expert on all things Wolter, please enlighten us: Is he or is he not responsible for the material that goes out in his name?" 1/22/2014 08:43:22 am
So, if I may borrow a phrase, Steve, you've chosen to "squirm" on the substance of the question and instead engage in a game of semantics. I ask you again, since you volunteered to answer: Is Scott Wolter responsible for the claims he voices on America Unearthed?
Steve
1/22/2014 10:34:37 am
First Jason wrote, "Since you are the expert on all things Wolter, please enlighten us: Is he or is he not responsible for the material that goes out in his name?"
Steve
1/22/2014 09:40:02 am
While I'm sure which you'd say I am, this was LOL funny.
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Will
1/22/2014 02:12:14 am
subscribe
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CFC
1/22/2014 03:43:15 am
Mr. Wolter is NOT being supported and endorsed by respected geologists, archaeologists, linguists, runologists or historians regarding his bogus claims, so I’m not surprised that ONLY a few individuals with their own agendas are here supporting him.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 03:45:20 am
More snarky personal insults and attacks, rather than discussion of the facts ...
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 03:47:41 am
But I DO agree that the relentless Scott Wolter bashers DO come here with some kind of agenda of their own ...
CFC
1/22/2014 03:56:56 am
I don't know any respected geologists, archaeologists, linguists, runologists or historians supporting his claims.
Steve
1/22/2014 04:28:14 am
See how he worded this statement, Rev. Phil, 'I don't know any RESPECTED geologists, archaeologists, linguists, runologists or historians SUPPORTING his claims.' (caps are mine) 1/22/2014 04:56:47 am
Rev. Phil Gotsch
CFC
1/22/2014 04:34:27 am
Perhaps you missed what she has said on this blog about Mr. Wolter? She obviously has a very different opinion about Mr. Wolter these days.
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CFC
1/22/2014 05:02:59 am
Steve,
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Steve
1/22/2014 06:06:09 am
Thanks, CFC,
Reply
1/22/2014 06:42:16 am
Yes, CFC caustically said: "I don't know any respected geologists, archaeologists, linguists, runologists or historians supporting his claims."
Joe
1/22/2014 06:53:38 am
Steve,
The Other J.
1/22/2014 07:58:30 am
Joe said: "I am still not sure why everyone thinks that Jason is obsessed with Mr. Wolter, if you review the blog he covers every different fringe topic that comes across his screen. I just notice that there are alot more comments on the blogs about Wolter. So maybe it is not Jason who is obsessed but the commenters of this blog that are."
Steve
1/22/2014 08:07:05 am
Joe, I agree with almost everything you wrote.
Joe
1/22/2014 08:21:26 am
Other J.
Joe
1/22/2014 08:29:48 am
C'mon Steve,
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 09:51:17 am
Scott Wolter's work on the Kensington Rune Stone indeed was VERY thorough … He was leader of a team that developed and followed SEVERAL lines of evidence, all of which indicate authenticity …
CFC
1/22/2014 12:33:08 pm
Some good points Steve, but I respectfully differ with you regarding the KRS. It is unfortunate that Mr. Wolter has refused to write a scientific paper and submit it for peer-review verifying the results he claims he has. He would need to complete that process to meet the standards required. Self-proclaimed proof contributes nothing of any real value to the research.
So, here's what a few hard scientists had to say about Wolter’s claims (from http://explorermf.wordpress.com/2010/06/28/the-kensington-code-fact-or-fiction/):
RLewis
1/23/2014 08:25:06 am
Gunn
1/23/2014 01:31:46 pm
RLewis, you are misinforming people about Nielsen/Williams's most recent findings. Please update yourself. I have provided a valuable link a few threads back. Yes, I'm saying your info is outdated.
RLewis
1/24/2014 01:03:48 am
Sorry Gunn, but I don't see it (there are a lot of posts so I may have missed it). I see the link to the Hooked X foreword - but that was 2005 (the link I provided was supposedly from 2010). Can you please point me to the link to Nielsen/Williams's most recent findings?
The Other J.
1/22/2014 08:31:33 am
Ever play that Google game where you put in the first couple words of a search and see what Google predicts you're looking for? Google uses an algorithm that analyzes the most commonly-grouped search terms and offers those as autocomplete suggestions for your search, with the most commonly-grouped terms at the top of the list.
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Steve
1/22/2014 09:30:10 am
"The Other J.", very interesting idea for a comment. Among the sizable group of Wolter haters on this blog, it will be well-received.
Reply
Steve
1/22/2014 09:33:13 am
By the way "The Other J.", 1/22/2014 09:39:35 am
I wasn't able to reproduce your results in the Keyword Planner. According to the documentation, results are targeted to a specific location and AdWords budget. What geo-location were you using to obtain these results? When I tried, I received only 14,200 monthly searches for all America Unearthed related keywords. It would seem that this far too low for a show with 1.35 million viewers.
Steve
1/22/2014 10:50:21 am
I'm in the New York City metro.
Matt Mc
1/22/2014 11:35:07 am
Being a big Lovecraft fan I myself would love to see more posts about Lovecraft or Lovecraft themed items.
RLewis
1/22/2014 02:08:02 pm
Maybe it's apples and oranges, but I think your list confirms TOJ's findings. He said if you start typing in "america unearthed", it automatically suggests "fake" as the next word. Since this shows up fourth on your list (the first entry has no third word and the 2nd and 3rd entries do not start with "america unearthed") - it seems plausible. Perhaps this is a somewhat slanted view, but note that after the series title and the host's name, it shows up third (I assume the recent episode in the 3rd entry will differ each month). Does this mean anything? I dunno.
The Other J.
1/22/2014 02:15:25 pm
Okay Steve, that was a bit of a weird swing and a miss. Good to see you can even play Tech Yoda in a patronizing way, but your strange analysis is for something else entirely, not what I was talking about.
Steve
1/22/2014 03:17:48 pm
Actually, I was pretty clear what you meant. And I was pretty certain that, while you are clearly aware of how Google Autocomplete works, you don't fully know what you're talking about on search. Case in point:
The Other J.
1/22/2014 03:38:51 pm
Alright Mr. Wizard, if the suggested autocomplete means nothing, how is it generated and why does Google suggest "america unearthed fake" when you type in "america unearthed"? Just happenstance? Another Wolter hater at Google?
Steve
1/22/2014 04:29:34 pm
I didn't say the "suggested autocomplete means nothing". Did I use the phrase "means nothing" or "meaningless"? I said it should not, as you suggest, be of concern to the producers and/or Wolter.
The Other J.
1/22/2014 06:29:40 pm
Handwavium sophistry. Fail.
Gunn
1/23/2014 04:07:11 am
I expected nothing less from a person who wrote a thesis on "metaphor," but doesn't even know what it entails, or includes.
Steve
1/23/2014 04:11:11 am
I've got the patience, Gunn. And I type very fast.
Steve
1/23/2014 10:20:53 am
The Other J.,
The Other J.
1/23/2014 11:25:41 am
Yeah, your highness, I guess you've argued me into believing that when you type "america unearthed" into Google, the first suggested autocomplete FOR "AMERICA UNEARTHED" isn't in fact "america unearthed fake." Even though it damn well does.
Steve
1/23/2014 12:11:54 pm
Gunn, Rev. Phil,
Gunn
1/23/2014 01:47:02 pm
Great metaphor, Steve!
Only Me
1/22/2014 08:39:10 am
Actually, Steve, I think it would boost the show's credibility immensely if they scouted areas of investigation. It would show that Scott is taking the subject matter seriously enough to filter the relevant material he is investigating.
Reply
1/22/2014 12:03:11 pm
America Unearthed: "the positivist" exaltation of sleaze?.
Reply
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:06:56 pm
Tara, just curious; were you unable to post the last few hours?
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/22/2014 12:10:43 pm
"Earn more sessions by sleeving … " -- "Charlie," to "Roxanne" 1/22/2014 12:12:48 pm
Gunn
Tara Jordan
1/22/2014 12:22:18 pm
As a matter of fact,I am unable to post from my computer right now.
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:25:00 pm
Jason wouldn't have any control over this, right? 1/22/2014 12:27:41 pm
No, I don't have any control over it. The blog platform is managed by a third party, Weebly, not me. If you go to Weebly.com you can contact tech support, and maybe they can figure out why some people can post and others can't. My end doesn't show any problems.
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:33:27 pm
Thanks for letting us know. I only had that problem once before, a few months ago. Just some kind of glitch, I guess. I noticed a message on my computer saying the firewall was off, and when I turned it back on, I was able to post. Probably just coincidence, then--not a victim of circumstances at all.
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:02:43 pm
The Other J., you can split all the hairs you want. I go by my trusty Oxford American Dictionary and Thesaurus, which does in fact say:
Reply
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:04:53 pm
I couldn't post for a few hours...I think my firewall was turned off, but I don't see how that would've prevented me from posting. (?)
Reply
Joe
1/22/2014 12:12:21 pm
not to be annoying but Other J. is correct. Also according to the definition you supplied "biting your tongue" could not be a metaphor, since you can actually bite your tongue.
Reply
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:19:25 pm
Actually, Joe, you are occasionally rather annoying. The Other J. is possibly correct, but so am I. Did you, or did you not read my dictionary's definition? I didn't look up various dictionary definitions...this is the one I regularly use. And it says I'm right. Also, you could just butt-out, too, since I said it is petty, anyway. Look at what I just said my dictionary's definition is. What do you possibly not understand? Just being an annoying trouble-maker, right? Nothing better to do, right?
Joe
1/22/2014 12:29:43 pm
Per the definition that you provided
Tara Jordan
1/22/2014 12:37:56 pm
Joe
Gunn
1/22/2014 12:39:05 pm
Joe, what's the matter with you? Just because one can bite one's tongue has nothing to do with the expression also being used figuratively. Now, maybe it's time for you to bite your tongue! You see, Joe, I just used it figuratively. I do not wish for you to actually bite your dag-gum tongue, even though you physically are able to. Do you get it now? Should you have just butted-out? Should The Other J. have just butted-out? I'll answer for you: a double, emphatic YES!
Joe
1/22/2014 12:40:22 pm
Nah, she really great and puts up with me spending too much time reading blogs
The Other J.
1/22/2014 02:21:53 pm
Gunn, at this point I think you wouldn't know a metaphor if it bit you in the ass and spoke in tongues. A picture is a metaphor. An idiom is a metaphor. Every figure of speech is a metaphor. The only thing that isn't a metaphor is a metaphor.
Reply
Gunn
1/23/2014 04:15:53 am
It sounds like yer finally getting the picture. (Don't look around for a picture.)
The Other J.
1/23/2014 01:41:55 pm
Just so you know -- because you keep gnawing on this metaphor bone in other places -- even by your own Oxford definition, you're incorrect. There's still no substitution or juxtaposition of meanings in your images, and that's what "a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable" means (unless you don't know what "juxtapose" or "substitute" means -- look them up in your Oxford.)
Gunn
1/23/2014 02:04:55 pm
"Or maybe I should just stop -- either interacting with you...."
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/23/2014 02:42:43 pm
"What is the sound of a guy biting his tongue with his head up his a** ... ???"
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Only Me
1/23/2014 02:51:42 pm
The same sound as a Wolter Loyalist speaking? LOL
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Joe
1/23/2014 04:16:03 pm
Not that the "Other J." and "Only Me" need defending. But I thought your expressed purpose was to prevent personal attacks to your friend and professional colleague Scott Wolter.
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Gunn
1/24/2014 05:18:27 am
Say it ain't so, Joe...we got new rules now.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/24/2014 04:34:36 am
The fact that (perhaps) Dr. Alberto Rodriguez MAY have an "immigration reform" agenda operating in his desire to understand the origin of the Aztec people is IMHO entirely legitimate …
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Gunn
1/24/2014 05:36:43 am
I'm very liberal, a bleeding heart, when it comes to immigration reform. Personally, I think everyone from all the Americas should be able to travel freely, from the tip of S. America, to the far reaches of Canada. I don't like walls and fences, having worked in corrections. We need to tear down these walls and let the people move about more freely. We are living in huge exclusionary zones, which are illegal in smaller form, in many places.
Reply
Jesus Rodriguez
7/10/2023 05:10:56 pm
Hello, Jesus Rodriguez here, no relationship to Roberto Rodriguez. The Aztecs did left a map. This map is in a form of geoglyphs. Yes, the Aztecs did had an empire throughout the United States. For more than two years I have been recreating this map. This map is the largest, the most ancient, and most precise map the world has ever seen. Wherever the Aztecs went, they left their mark on the earth, and that is why there are so may geoglyphs throughout the planet. Geoglyphs are direction pointer, a way of navigating around the planet. The alignment between geoglyphs are so precise as it a GPS system was used on ancient times. The Aztecs did not originate in the Americas. Their origins are from the country of Turkey. I do not have a PhD; I am a simple Licensed Practical Nurse that happened to break this code using the computer program Google Earth. If I am given an opportunity to present this in public, I will redefine what a is a geoglyph, as many archeologists have stand in front of ancient ruins (literally) and are unaware there are looking at geoglyphs. This map is embedded in ancient ruins throughout the globe. Here is my map Here is my map over the United States.
Reply
Jesus Rodriguez
7/10/2023 05:20:24 pm
How can I place a picture of this map in this post? So I can make my case more solid?
Reply
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AuthorI am an author and researcher focusing on pop culture, science, and history. Bylines: New Republic, Esquire, Slate, etc. There's more about me in the About Jason tab. Newsletters
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