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S. T. Joshi: People Who Aren't Famous Have No Right to Criticize Lovecraft for Racism

8/26/2014

84 Comments

 
Canadian author David Nickle has an interesting post on his blog about H. P. Lovecraft and the issue of racism, prompted by the recent petition by Daniel José Older to replace World Fantasy Award’s bust of Lovecraft with that of the Black female writer Octavia Butler because Lovecraft was an “avowed racist and a terrible wordsmith” while Butler challenged “our notions of power, race and gender.” Personally, I’d have objected on the grounds that Lovecraft is better suited to horror than fantasy, but boundaries blur at the edges of the forms of speculative fiction. I don’t really have a problem with the World Fantasy Award being a bust of Lovecraft, nor do I see it as an endorsement of racism, but the debate over Older’s petition has degenerated into parody of the kind of debates over racism we see in society today.
In the post, Nickle describes his trip to the World Horror Convention last year to participate in a panel discussion on Lovecraft’s “Eternal Fascination” moderated by Lovecraft scholar S. T. Joshi. Nickle said he came with the intention of discussing Lovecraft’s views on race and eugenics, but he quickly found that the panel was uninterested in the topic:
I brought up the topic early and affably in the panel, and just a little later but also affably, Mr. Joshi shut it down with a familiar canard: Lovecraft's racism and xenophobia must be viewed in the context of Lovecraft's considerably less-enlightened time.
Nickle participated in a second panel discussion on Lovecraft at Worldcon on the international appeal of Lovecraft. There he again tried to raise the issue of racism in Lovecraft’s work. “One of my co-panelists straight-facedly claimed she had seen no hints of racism in the Lovecraft that she’d read and wasn’t sure what I was talking about.”

Nickle therefore concludes that it’s important for fantasy writers to acknowledge and deal with the racism of older works like those of Lovecraft, not just to push them under the carpet or pretend they don’t exist. Lovecraft’s fiction, he says, emerges from racism and takes much of its power from fear of the Other, and this simply cannot be excised from the stories as an inconvenient fact. He provides the example of Lovecraftian pastiches that mimic the style but lack the effect because they are missing the fear and loathing that animates the original work.

He was reacting specifically to S. T. Joshi’s apoplectic response to Older’s petition, and, also, to author China Miéville’s claim to have hidden the WFA statuette away to avoid looking at Lovecraft’s racist visage. (Joshi does not have linkable blog posts; I am referring to the August 16 and 23, 2014 entries .)

Joshi was outraged at the petition, and penned a horrible “satire” on August 16 making the faceitious case for replacing Lovecraft with himself on the World Fantasy Award, including such noxious lines as “I have a fatal predilection for blonde Caucasian females, a trait I share with Arabs engaged in the white slave trade.” (Joshi, a native of India, recently married Mary K. Wilson, a blonde white woman.)

Apparently Joshi discovered that not everyone appreciated his post (least of all Oder), so he offered a second, this time criticizing Older, an emerging writer, for not being famous enough to question Lovecraft, penning a massive blog post to challenge the paragraph-long petition: “What lofty literary achievements, I wondered, gave him the right to cast such Olympian moral judgments on a writer against whom, from an objective point of view, he would seem like a flea on the back of an elephant?” He objects that Older has published only two books and lacks a Wikipedia page. But it gets worse:
Has he made any attempt to understand the sources—intellectual, social, familial, cultural—of Lovecraft’s racism? Is he content to hand down facile condemnations on a figure who lived a century ago without the slightest attempt to grasp the reasons why that figure came to his views? That would seem to be the act of a partisan hack, not an informed critic or scholar. […] Does Mr. Older have any awareness of the nearly uniform opinion of Lovecraft’s friends and colleagues that he was one of the most admirable individuals—kind, courteous, dignified without pomposity, witty, immensely learned and aesthetically gifted—they had ever met?
He concludes by saying of Older, “When he dies, it will have been as if he had never lived.” Therefore, his opinion is “preposterous kerfuffle.” Here is Older’s response.

Well, as it happens, Mr. Joshi, I am familiar with the source material, and I have conducted research in to the life and times of H. P. Lovecraft, published on the same, and have a Wikipedia entry on my work, so by your criteria I can therefore pronounce ex cathedra that Lovecraft was a racist, that his work is permeated with racist assumptions and ideas, and that it is impossible to understand Lovecraft’s fiction without significant engagement with his racist views. I will also assert that Lovecraft’s racism was an order of magnitude greater than the casual racism of the New England of the 1920s and more closely aligned to the Jim Crow South and to the Nazis, whom Lovecraft praised for promoting cultural purity. On Hitler, Lovecraft once wrote, “by God, I like the boy!”

Now I need to add a disclaimer since Joshi is rather quick to attack those who disagree: Joshi suggested the title for my first book, though to our shared publisher, not to me, and he has included positive references to my work in his own. He has also told me he never read my book, and he stopped talking to me after I asked for his assistance in developing my literary career. I haven’t spoken to him in at least seven years.

Let’s remind ourselves of Lovecraft’s racism. Consider some of Lovecraft’s work:
“… the prisoners all proved to be men of a very low, mixed-blooded, and mentally aberrant type. Most were seamen, and a sprinkling of Negroes and mulattoes, largely West Indians or Brava Portuguese from the Cape Verde Islands, gave a colouring of voodooism to the heterogeneous cult.” (“The Call of Cthulhu”)

“…a frightful and clandestine system of assemblies and orgies descended from dark religions antedating the Aryan world, and appearing in popular legends as Black Masses and Witches’ Sabbaths. That these hellish vestiges of old Turanian-Asiatic magic and fertility-cults were even now wholly dead he could not for a moment suppose, and he frequently wondered how much older and how much blacker than the very worst of the muttered tales some of them might really be.” (“The Horror at Red Hook”)

“The negro had been knocked out, and a moment’s examination shewed us that he would permanently remain so. He was a loathsome, gorilla-like thing, with abnormally long arms which I could not help calling fore legs, and a face that conjured up thoughts of unspeakable Congo secrets and tom-tom poundings under an eerie moon.” (“Herbert West—Reanimator”)

When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Jove’s fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th’ Olympian host conceiv’d a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.
(“On the Creation of Niggers”)
And his personal thoughts:
Of course they can’t let niggers use the beach at a Southern resort – can you imagine sensitive persons bathing near a pack of greasy chimpanzees? The only thing that makes life endurable where blacks abound is the Jim Crow principle, & I wish they’d apply it in N.Y. both to niggers & to the more Asiatic type of puffy, rat-faced Jew. Either stow ’em out of sight or kill ’em off – anything so that a white man may walk along the streets without shuddering nausea. (letter of February 1925)

The New York Mongoloid problem is beyond calm mention. The city is befouled and accursed—I come away from it with a sense of having been tainted by contact, and long for some solvent of oblivion to wash it out! (letter of August 21, 1926)

The black is vastly inferior. There can be no question of this among contemporary and unsentimental biologists — eminent Europeans for whom the prejudice-problem does not exist. But, it is also a fact that there would be a very grave and very legitimate problem even if the negro were the white man’s equal. For the simple fact is, that two widely dissimilar races, whether equal or not, cannot peaceably coexist in the same territory until they are either uniformly mongrelised or cast in folkways of permanent and traditional personal aloofness. … All told, I think the modern American is pretty well on his guard, at last, against racial and cultural mongrelism. There will be much deterioration, but the Nordic has a fighting chance of coming out on top in the end. (letter of January 1931)
It’s true that other (usually lesser) pulp authors of the era had racist views, but their work isn’t continually reprinted, nor is it celebrated among the great accomplishments of its genre.

Joshi explains that he devoted 2% of his biography of Lovecraft, I Am Providence, to racism, but that he considered atheism a much more important subject, superseding any need to devote more time to racism. He also notes that when he read that Lovecraft considered Joshi’s native India to be a nauseating place that made him want to “vomit,” Joshi immediately decided that it was a “perfectly natural” response born of love for the British Empire rather than hatred of India.

Joshi goes on to present several logical fallacies in absolving Lovecraft of responsibility for his racism, and the audience from the need to care about it. As noted above, Joshi expects us to take the esteem of Lovecraft’s friends as absolution, as though racists do not have friends and cannot be polite and even charming. He next presents an appeal to authority, arguing that Joyce Carol Oates’s praise of Lovecraft’s aesthetic style absolves the stories (and the man) of responsibility for their content, and that critical studies of the author justify the “intrinsic merits” of his work. But work can be meritorious while still containing repugnant ideas; Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will is perhaps the most prominent example.  

Here is the most problematic line in Joshi’s post: “The WFA bust acknowledges Lovecraft’s literary status in the field of weird fiction and nothing more.” On the one hand, this is strictly speaking true; the Edgar Award for mystery writing, for example, takes no position on alcoholism or child marriage despite taking its form from Edgar Allan Poe. But on the other hand, could we honestly give out an award in the shape of Arthur Conan Doyle for logic and reason? Sure, he invented Sherlock Holmes—his great contribution to literature—but he also was a crank who believed in fairies and psychics and actively tried to undermine science and reason in the real world. The personal and the political cannot be so easily separated, especially when the personal directly impacts the form and content of the work in question, as with Lovecraft and racism.

Joshi says “It would appear that Bram Stoker was a Christian (an Irish Protestant). I am an atheist. Would it be legitimate for me to feel uncomfortable accepting the BSA [the Bram Stoker Award for horror] because of my religious differences with Stoker?” But religious difference isn’t the same as racism. One can be religious without engaging in hatred, while one cannot be a racist without denigrating others. To equate them to is set up a false dichotomy. Racism involves the active hatred of the Other and the purposeful denigration of the same. Bram Stoker’s Dracula promotes Christianity to be sure, but it does not actively argue that people of other faiths are subhuman. Even if it did, religion is not an inherent quality of a human being; humans can and do change their faiths. Race, however, is an inherent characteristic, despite not being biological, because our culture has ascribed value to skin color, and (Michael Jackson aside), this cannot be changed.

I understand that Joshi has tied so much of his life and work to glorifying Lovecraft, but it does no one any good to minimize the man’s faults, especially when they play such a large role, paradoxically, in driving the very power that Joshi sees in Lovecraft’s mature fiction. There are fine arguments to be made for and against using Lovecraft on the World Fantasy Award, but arguing that those who are opposed to it are ignorant and/or not famous enough to take seriously are not among those arguments.

84 Comments
Byron DeLear link
8/26/2014 06:04:48 am

Lovecraft definitely had racist views. Joshi seems to want to look past all of Lovecraft's flaws, and works hard to do so. One similar case, although reversed, would be a young, not-famous author who went after Joseph Campbell criticizing him, among other things, for racist, ethnocentric views that rendered his scholarship unworthy. I read the relatively unknown author's novella and wrote a review of it and his anti-Campbell views. Link is provided above.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
8/26/2014 11:38:26 am

I read Drew Jacob's entry on Joseph Campbell. I have my own reasons for not being a fan of Campbell's Monomyth, but I have to admit Jacob pretty much lost me when he started talking about being an "actual hero". I'm not sure what he even means by that, unless he's talking about becoming a volunteer firefighter or something, and his use of Che Guevara as an example of a hero is a little unsettling to me.

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EP
8/26/2014 12:12:32 pm

An "actual hero"? Do I want to know? :)

Shane Sullivan
8/26/2014 03:00:43 pm

Yeah, apparently Drew Jacob feels that the Monomyth promotes the idea that a hero is nothing more than some dude who fits into a specific (very broad) category of narrative. Mr. Jacob aspires to be an "actual hero"--in his words: "... the kind where you do stuff that saves lives or makes people safer."

According to Byron DeLear, a fan of Campbell's, Jacob is also some kind of pagan priest, so he's a bit of an odd bird from the get-go.

EP
8/26/2014 06:24:23 pm

Oh man... geez... I'd make a joke about "becoming an hero", but now I'm just not in the mood... for anything...

I need to find less depressing diversions...

Byron DeLear link
8/27/2014 03:42:02 am

Shane said, "According to Byron DeLear, a fan of Campbell's, Jacob is also some kind of pagan priest, so he's a bit of an odd bird from the get-go."

So, I usually would try to be more forgiving of new author like Drew Jacob, but in his case the hypocritical nature of his attack on Campbell had to be answered. He goes way over the top, yes, saying how he wants to be an "actual hero" and that's the substance of his "beef" with Campbell... In my opinion, Jacob's well-written critique is just a skin masking what in reality is a player hater's screed. Attacking a monument like Campbell with dubious reasoning and logic --- probably par for the course for a "poly-theist priest" --- in his attempt to be an actual hero, saving lives and such, is not heroic. It's immature.

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EP
8/27/2014 05:42:39 am

His attack on Campbell is self-serving and one-sided, but I really have no sympathy for Campbell. He is nowhere near deserving his status as a "monument" and his popularity has nothing to do with his scholarly merit (and everything to do with his ideas being accessible to people with high school education).

EP
8/26/2014 06:11:35 am

Here's the passage from Joshi's blog where he discusses Older's credentials:

"I had to do some literary research into the life and work of Mr. Older, of whose existence I had been previously unaware. What lofty literary achievements, I wondered, gave him the right to cast such Olympian moral judgments on a writer against whom, from an objective point of view, he would seem like a flea on the back of an elephant? I am still wondering. I first tried Wikipedia—but, alas, Mr. Older has no Wikipedia entry."

While Joshi almost certainly brings up Wikipedia to belittle his opponent, he doesn't state or even imply that lacking a Wikipedia entry disqualifies one from the right to discuss these matters. He brings it up to underline the obscurity of his opponent - he couldn't learn about him by going to Wikipedia. It is the relative lack of relevant accomplishments "from the objective point of view" (whatever that means) that disqualifies him.

While the rhetorical intent is still blameworthy and Joshi does indeed shoot himself in the foot by making such ridiculous remarks, I think this is far from the most ridiculous thing he says in this blog post.

For example, he says that Butler's qualifications are undermined by her having won several Hugo awards. LOL

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spookyparadigm
8/26/2014 06:13:05 am

I agree with almost all of this, strongly. I would suggest that if a writer did have religiously-based views that others are sub-human, that would be similar to the issue with Lovecraft. Otherwise, I agree with the lot. And I read some of Joshi's essay a day or two ago (his followup one), and couldn't finish it as it was so embarrassing. He's honestly taken his legacy down a peg with this, as it makes him look like a fanboy.

Also, I think Nickle makes a very important distinction that makes this different than just "PC-ness" or the issue of personal lives. I absolutely agree one cannot understand Lovecraft's fiction without understanding the impact of race and colonialism. Too many of his stories, and especially "The Call of Cthulhu," simply don't make much sense without it.

I also think Nickle is very much on to something when he argues that the problem with so many Lovecraft pastiches/mythos fiction stories is that they aren't about anything, there is a hole. I routinely praise Stross' "A Colder War" as the scariest Lovecraft story. Because it successfully weds the fear of nuclear extinction with Lovecraft's cosmicism, and with the deep time science that inspired it. Some of it reads like lesser material (the CIA Kadath drop point, the shoggoths in Afghanistan, etc.). But the apocalyptic deep time material, and then the terrifying strange vista at the end, are fantastic and scary. That story is about something, and Nickle is right, most pastiches often don't work because they're a different sort of story with tentacles attached, or they are a copy of a Lovecraft story with the core driving fear removed.

When I read the first complaints about the HPL statuette some years ago, I also had an initial bristling reaction. I don't know, and Joshi's essay definitely sent me over to the other side if I wasn't already there.

The added "who the hell are you?" bit against Nickle, I understand where it comes from in an era of constant twitter-based tall poppy cutting, but it was absurd and frankly helps Nickle's point in regards to a little Lovecraft clique refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

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spookyparadigm
8/26/2014 06:15:57 am

The fourth passage in my previous post should read

"When I read the first complaints about the HPL statuette some years ago, I also had an initial bristling reaction. I don't now, and Joshi's essay definitely sent me over to the other side if I wasn't already there."

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EP
8/26/2014 06:34:48 am

I couldn't agree more. Joshi's post is ridiculously embarrassing. And embarrassingly ridiculous. The only explanation I can see is that race relations must be a sensitive issue for him, to the point of making him lose control. Otherwise, what he says is unworthy of a serious scholar (or, indeed, of an intelligent person).

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spookyparadigm
8/26/2014 07:00:54 am

Nah, I suspect it is that he's too close to the issue. Neverminding any more cynical perspective (Joshi's star has risen with HPL's in the last decades), which I don't suspect are the main thing, he has indeed dedicated his life work to studying the man. He had to have made his decisions about these questions, possibly decades ago, otherwise he couldn't have done the work he has. To then see constant complaints about these topics, and yes usually from those younger and in many cases not that well known (though I suspect China Mieville didn't get quite such a nasty response), he's going to take it as an indictment of his life work.

spookyparadigm
8/26/2014 07:10:54 am

But yes, it does make Joshi look non-scholarly.

And I'll be honest, that's how I've felt when I've read Joshi's discussions of Lovecraft's fiction.

As a biographer and a historian, Joshi obviously is the go-to on HPL. But I've never been very impressed when he starts discussing the tales themselves, or influences and interpretations that are not directly related to the biographical (whereas I obviously listen when he connects Lovecraft's travels to stories like The Dunwich Horror).

I am somewhat schooled in the secondary literature on HPL, and it has generally been my experience that I turn to Joshi for the biographical facts, and that he provides a framework for other commentators and scholars who sometimes have terrible ideas, and sometimes very interesting ideas.

EP
8/26/2014 07:13:17 am

Or it could be the combination of the two... In any case, I hope we can all agree that his reaction disqualifies his opinion on the matter from being taken as unbiased, as representing an "objective point of view".

EP
8/26/2014 07:21:39 am

"I've never been very impressed when he starts discussing the tales themselves, or influences and interpretations that are not directly related to the biographical"

He's never been anything more than a biographer and a polularizer. His status as a "leading" scholar of this literature is largely due to the indifference of the academia. But it doesn't take a "PhD Scientist" (to use RWS's phrase) to avoid howlers out of which his blog post in question is composed.

EP
8/26/2014 06:29:27 am

"work can be meritorious while still containing repugnant ideas; Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will is perhaps the most prominent example."

Jason, I'm pretty sure you can find more prominent examples. Like the Iliad or the Bible. But I suppose it makes sense if what you mean is that Triumph of the Will is the most most prominent example when it come to the racism of Lovecraft's era (or something similarly qualified)...

"Racism involves the active hatred of the Other and the purposeful denigration of the same."

This is, strictly speaking, false. Racism is indeed organically linked to these other things, but one can be a racist (and there have been racists) who did not exhibit hatred of "the Other" - they simply pitied races they believed to be less fortunate (I'm thinking of some progressive neo-Lamarckians).

"religion is not an inherent quality of a human being; humans can and do change their faiths."

I'm not sure why this is relevant. Like, I can see several things you could have in mind, but I can't tell which one of them is behind you briging this up.

"our culture has ascribed value to skin color"

Racism has to do with more than just skin color (both now and back in Lovecraft's day). Anti-Semitic racism is just the most prominent example of where skin color is not the whole story.

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me
8/26/2014 02:34:17 pm

L.R's "Triumph of Will" films the events of the 1936 games.
Its the same Olympics where Jesse Owens wins the gold
as Hitler has a very good view of things from his seat. The
context behind the drive for Berlin to host the games is the
genocidal racism of the Nazi totalitarian state. My obvious statement. Her filmography includes careful and deliberate
edits, her footage includes more blue eyed blondes than
normal. It is a propaganda film, its latent racism is worse
than D.W Griffith's Birth of a Nation. Our South elite liked
the idea of a perpetual caste system. The Nazi superstate
wanted a global control and a massive purge. Propaganda
can be Art or something insulting and horrid. There is a line.

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Matt Mc
8/27/2014 12:48:57 am

I had the pleasure of being the cameraman for Riefenstahl for the Synapse DVD release of TRIUMPH OF THE WILL. The film indeed was a propaganda film and was conceptualized and exicuted as such. She was very clear that it was Goebbels who dictated the overall execution of the film and that she was just doing a job, one that she felt if she did not do correctly could have great negative consequences on her, now there are many debates about what her role actually was but she was always clear that she was just doing her job.

The film itself was to showcase the German male and how strong it can make the state. That every true German male was stronger and better disciplined that the rest of the world. Historically the film really is strong on two points, a great empowering film that shows that through meticulous presentation moving imagines can influence and inspire beyond a level that had been seen before and it set a precedents in film theory about the use and location of the camera and how if can be used to convey emotion and action.

As for Propaganda being art of course it is, the two go hand in hand. Art is propaganda, all art is trying to provoke some kind of response from the viewer or reader which is exactly what propaganda goal is. It all depends on the use, we are subjected to endless propaganda everyday by way of advertisements, news stories, articles, ect... the question people need to ask is which ones are "bad" and which are "acceptable". TRIUMPH OF THE WILL as a film played a huge part in how the mass media and media in general is used in our daily lives and that it will forever be remembered as the moment that things changed in the world of mass media, the moment that it was proven that images and sound can truly be used to influence that masses. So next time you drink a coke or eat a fast food place thank Riefenstahl and Goebbels for their meticulous work. Now is the film art well I would say yes but subjectively just as all art is.


As for art reflect unappealing subject matters, if art did not what fun would that be, art can and should stimulate, provoke, upset, encourage ect.... that is its nature. I would hate to live in a world without art reflecting both the good and bad side of humankind, it helps us all look in a mirror and hopefully opens our mind to new ideas and a better understand of how others arrive at what the believe. IMHO if art does not provoke some response that it has failed

Byron DeLear link
8/27/2014 03:59:31 am

For more on the Nazis pursuit of perfecting the German people, this documentary is very informative and a sublime depiction of how Hitler rejected degenerate art, and the propaganda mission followed this agenda to "purify" the state. The racial purity of the blood, the blood religion, in essence, saw Hitler as the grand artist sculpting his domain with dispassionate murder and cruelty. I highly recommend it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Architecture_of_Doom

The invention of propaganda is of course well documented; this 4-hour BBC documentary, The Century of Self, which is available for viewing online, unpacks the role of Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, during WW I in utilizing propaganda to "regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments their bodies."

Chomsky says: "If you read Mein Kampf, Hitler was very impressed with Anglo-American propaganda. He argued, not without reason, that that’s what won World War I and vowed that next time around the Germans would be ready, too, and developed their own propaganda systems modeled on the democracies. The Russians tried it, but it was too crude to be effective. South Africa used it; others, right up to the present. But the real forefront is the United States, because it’s the most free and democratic society, and it’s just much more important to control attitudes and opinions."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self

EP
8/27/2014 04:54:16 am

"TRIUMPH OF THE WILL as a film played a huge part in how the mass media and media in general is used in our daily lives and that it will forever be remembered as the moment that things changed in the world of mass media, the moment that it was proven that images and sound can truly be used to influence that masses."

That's overstating it a bit, don't you think?

paperback writer
8/27/2014 06:24:04 am

American Cinema came of age with CITIZEN KANE but the
editing and cutting techniques she utilized predates Orson
Welles's masterpiece. In one scene the divers endlessly float
upon leaving the diving board, she had stationed a camera
under it and cut the footage carefully to achieve the effect.

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 06:27:43 am

Not at all,

It was the first time a propaganda film so masterfully demonstrated how powerful if can be. It proved to the world how powerful manipulating the moving image can be. If you look at the film on a technical and theoretical level you will notice that it defined how modern day news, magazine , advertising ,and even dramatic presentations are done. It is the cornerstone, sure there were films before it but none so expertly mastered the approach.

The impact and influence of TRIUMPH OF THE WILL will be present in our media for as long as the moving image is used to influence public opinion or influence public thought. There is a reason the TRIUMPH is required viewing for anyone entering the Moving Picture (TV and FILM) industry both to serve as a warning and to serve as a guidepost.

The only other film I can think of with such a strong influence throughout the entirety of the moving picture industry is NANNOOK OF THE NORTH, which proved that there needs to no truth in presentation, that the truth of the film is the truth the viewing public will accept.

EP
8/27/2014 06:45:14 am

To clarify, I agree that Triumph of the Will is a landmark of cinema. I was taking issue with you overstating the case: "it will forever be remembered", "the moment that things changed", "the moment that it was proven"... And now you say:

"It was the first time a propaganda film so masterfully demonstrated how powerful it can be."

This statement cannot be evaluated unless we have a clear way of measuring and comparing "masterfulness". (To be sure, it was an important film in all the ways you're saying. I'm not questioning that, by the way.)

"It proved to the world how powerful manipulating the moving image can be."

What historical evidence do we have for this claim? The power of cinema was widely appreciated long before Triumph of the Will. What specifically did it add to people's understanding of it?

"it defined how modern day news, magazine , advertising ,and even dramatic presentations are done."

This is a very strong historical claim. What is your basis for saying this? *When* did it "define" these things?

"The impact... will be present in our media for as long as the moving image is used to influence public opinion or influence public thought."

This is either trivial, since the impact of lots of things can be expected to persist indefinitely into the future, or it is yet another very strong claim that one may find questionable without denying the importance of Triumph of the Will.

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 07:10:02 am

You know I really hate arguing for the sake of arguing, people take exception all the time with statements, These are mine coming and based on my career as a editor in the new industry. I would gladly encourage you to research and explore the topic of TRIUMPH and its impact on media, there are many places to do so but most are actual courses and I simply can only give basic and general qualifications of my statements since I really do not have the time to break down the film on a theoretical level and then do the comparisons to current media.

I will sayI have never been the best at words and expressing my thoughts via using words but I stand behind my comments and fully believe them . What I would suggest is watching the film, watching how if presents a given scene, than watch advertising or news and notice how the pacing, editing, camerawork are very much replicated.

What Riefenstahl did in the movie was set the standards for the techniques that we use today. Hence my statements of cultural impact and TRIUMPH was the first film to be used on a large scale to influence the masses to a certain agenda on a large scale success. While there where many films before it none had the immediate impact on its audience, now do not get me wrong, someone else would of done it if Riefenstahl did not, it was bound to happen. It simple was a matter of having a very skilled director with an excellent eye and sense of pace teamed up with Goebbels who had mastered the use of propaganda. The teaming of the two created this film, one fueled the other. One example of a current use of the technique use in TRIUMPH is the almost constant display of the Nazi flag to assert national pride, now look at the use of the American Flag in our news programing they are almost identical and are used to promote the same response from the viewer.

I would suggest renting the DVD or BluRay and listen to the audio commentary by Dr. Anthony R. Santoro as great starting point in exploring how influential the film is.

I wish I had the time to go into this in more detail but Like I said I have never been great with words and as a topic it takes hours to explore the theory behind the emotional response of the audience and its how that theory is used in contemporary video/film presentations.


EP
8/27/2014 07:22:19 am

I have watched the movie and I know a fair bit about its history. I wasn't denying that it's innovative and influential. I was merely expressing doubt that your incredibly strong statements about the movie are supported. You haven't really addressed my specific complaints, but if you don't wish to for whatever reason, that's cool.

I just hope that you appreciate that pracical experience in an industry does not make one an expert in that industry's history. And that observing parallels between one movie and certain standard practices does nothing on its own to support the claim that it *made* them standard.

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 07:44:25 am

It is hard to address in this forum and with the limited time, simply because it is all discussing and analyzing the theory of presentation. I feel my example of the use of the Flag in the film and the flag used in current news media is the best simple example I can come up with. If you want me to address then "When" well the when is when others saw how the techniques used worked. Understand also that everything has been built upon and further developed in the way of technique since 1934. TRIUMPH serves only as a cornerstone of using the visual medium to influence it is not the final statement.

As for experience not amounting to being an expert on history. I would agree to some extent. When however your job is to use these techniques on a daily basis having an understanding of the history makes you better at your job. Would I say I am qualified to teach the subject, no not an any manner. I however can say that my execution and understanding of the techniques and theory made me better very good at my job, something that to this day helps me on a daily basis. So am I an expert at history no but I am am expert on the application and use of the techniques. That is the reason I suggested watching the audio commentary because Dr. Santoro can express and teach way better than I ever could.

You are entitled to feel however you want about my statements. They are mine and I know from experience and practice from which the techniques I and others use on a daily basis come from. It is like discussing the rule of thirds in photography by John Smith, we can question it and debate it forever, some has will say it has less importance than other but the fact is that when Smith first wrote it down it forever changed the landscape afterwards, I say the same thing about the film theory and techniques in TRIUMPH, which I know to be true.

Like I said I simply do not have the teaching skill or the patience to explain properly, if we were sitting side by side with the film I could show and demonstrate how and why things are effective and how they are used today but for me without being able to do that I would simply be wasting time and most likely be causing frustration for myself and others.

EP
8/27/2014 07:52:43 am

You're not getting what I'm saying. I never questioned that the movie employs certain techniques effectively or that it was influential. I am merely suggesting that your strong statements (which I quoted in my posts) are both false and unsupportable.

For example, it is one thing to say that the movie is an important and illustrative early example of certian techniques. It is another thing to say that this movie "proved" to "the world" that such techniques work. The latter claim cannot be inferred from the former, or from any examination of the movie on its own or in comparison to contemporary practices. It is a historical question. (Ditto for the other claims of yours I quoted.)

Regardless of who says what in which DVD commentary, what are *your* sources for these strong claims? (You don't owe anyone an explanation, of course. But one would be appreciated.)

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 08:09:48 am

So you are questioning my use of certain words, in a purely rhetorical sense?

Simple put the film introduced an aspect of theory and application of that theory that had not be done in the landscape before. Its execution of of theory and technique where noticed on a cultural level as seen from the impact and influence the film exerted to the German and world public. Others noted that such technique had an effect on the viewers and replicated it. Were there other films that toyed with the it before, of course, but none executed it so well Like I said it is the cornerstone and has been built upon.

Honestly I could care less if you thing I am wrong and feel free to do so. We come from to different mindsets and I think that is the real problem, I know from practice, I would say my sources are all around me, throughout media, the understanding of why a jump cut has a certain psychological effect on the viewer or how a certain angle can empower the subject being filmed all things that find its roots in execution in TRIUMPH and that are used on a daily basis.

You seem to want me to come from the scholar, I am no scholar and never was, I am a practitioner. So take what you will, agree or disagree. I do know the playing rhetorical games is just as much of a waste of time as me trying to be an instructor.

But hey if you are ever in the DC area and I have the free time, I will gladly sit down and demonstrate and show you through visual examples of where my statements came from. That however still will not change your rhetorical argument, which simply is saying that you disagree with my opinions, which is fine.

EP
8/27/2014 08:28:28 am

"So you are questioning my use of certain words, in a purely rhetorical sense?"

No, I'm questioning the truth of what you say using these words.

Nor am I "simply" saying that I disagree with your opinions. I've been trying to explain why your claims are very strong and what would be needed to defend them.

Whether some claim of historical fact is true has nothing to do with mindsets. It has to do with what actually happened.

If you'd made claims about application of technique, I would have deferred to your expertise. But you are talking about history. You sound like Scott Wolter when he claims that his (real) geological expertise translates into archaeology. And you are subject to all the same criticisms. (Note that I'm not comparing you to Wolter. I'm comparing specific claims of yours to specific claims of his.)

You may try to pretend that my points are "rhetorical" or otherwise not worth addressing, but no one who understands what I'm actually saying is going to be impressed. If you don't wish to address them, that's fine. But don't make this out to be anything other than what it is: You making claims you can't defend and trying to save face after getting called out for it. (Because God forbid someone should ever admit they may have to reconsider something!)

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 08:47:22 am

Look feel how you want. I stand by my statements dislike them if you want.

Like I said I am not a historian and I never was or claimed to be. I do however know the root and introductory application of the techniques that I use as a daily basis as a practitioner.

Like I said think I am wrong that wont change me from thinking I know what I am talking about or affect how will continue to express what I know.

Like I said I am no wordsmtih and never was. I am horrible at expressing things in writing. You can say what you want but all I see is a person who just wants to debate for debates sake and I do not like to do that.

I know in the world that I work in TRIUMPH is the cornerstone and will remain that way. It is one of those films that you can say there was a before and there was an after. You want me to sit down and go through old text books and find film scholars and historians to repeat that. They are out there but honestly I am not the type to waste my time digging just because you disagree with my opinion. I do not feel the need to defend my position and even if I did I have said I feel I could not properly express that defense to you in this forum without visually comparisons and breakdowns it is simply not how my brain works.

My offer still stands if you are ever in the area I will demonstrate visual and through example where I come from, hell I will even take you on a tour of CNN and FOX news to talk to other editors that will repeat the same things I have said but beyond that I do not thing there is anything I can do that will satisfy you. Which is fine for me.

All I can say is that I stand behind my statements, they are my educated opinions. Dislike them, feel they are wrong, or dislike how I choose to express them fine.

EP
8/27/2014 09:25:22 am

I guess my effort to make you consider whether your "educated opinions" are really all that educated in the right sense have been for nothing. Your loss.

At least you aren't accusing me of making "merely rhetorical" argument any more, so that's something.

Matt Mc
8/27/2014 09:44:14 am

I left out the rhetorical comment from my last post because there was no need to state it again, that would become rather redundant, kind of like your need to debate. I am sorry I choose to interact beyond my initial statements, I should of know there would be nothing to build on or discuss. Only thing I would suggest as I have is to listen to the audio commentary to better understand where I am coming from something which you feel is not needed. I should of realized there that you just like to argue... Honestly I do not understand that, it is really not that interesting.

Trust me when I say that there is nothing you will say that will make me think my opinion is not correct in this. My education has informed me, I know what I do everyday (okay well not everyday) and where those techniques are theories are founded in. Also when questioning my work experience I welcome you to come into my world and than make that assessment, as I said I will gladly take you into it and give you a tour and even shadow me on a day of work if you would like and than I will accept you commentary about my "educated opinions" until then it is just a ploy to try to get me to debate, which well worked since I am damn bored sitting here.

I will say I happily think you like to debate for debates sake and this conversation amounts to nothing. In fact if I was not sitting here waiting monitoring a long render I would of never even made my first response to your post.

Like I said think what you think.. but I will say there is nothing that you can do that will make me say or believe that my statements about TRIUMPH OF THE WILL are not the representative of the major impact the film has had on how we use the visual motion mediums to influence people and peoples decisions.

EP
8/27/2014 12:14:28 pm

"I am sorry I choose to interact beyond my initial statements"

I bet you are. Whenever I'm sorry I chose to interact with someone I always write long posts stubbornly repeating the same thing without even trying to understand why the other side is disagreeing.

"better understand where I am coming from something which you feel is not needed."

So, let me get this straight: your familiarity with the issue is largely based on this DVD commentary? Otherwise I don't understand why you're saying this. Also, I keep this going precisely because I'm not indifferent to understanding it.

"Trust me when I say that there is nothing you will say that will make me think my opinion is not correct in this."

Is this how intelligent adults function? (This *is* a rhetorical question, by the way.) Amazingly, you are the second person in this thread to say this. The first one is BillUSA, who thinks that a cabal of Hollywood "power homosexuals" is trying to invade his private life and that homosexuality is unnatural.

"when questioning my work experience I welcome you to come into my world and than make that assessment"

I specifically acknowledged that I wouldn't question your technical expertise. For all I know you're amazing at what you do. However, that's irrelevant to whether your historical claims are defensible.

"you like to debate for debates sake and this conversation amounts to nothing."

I asked one short question (to which I didn't even expect a reply). You are the one who came back with long post after long post, somehow failing to address my rather limited criticisms of what you said.

Hope that render's going well. Don't be a stranger. :)

Mark link
8/26/2014 06:59:39 am

I agree with Jason. Now, I personally couldn't care less about who's on the WFA Bust, whether it's Lovecraft or Octavia Butler or somebody else. But - and I speak as a massive Lovecraft fan with 2.5 bookcases of Cthulhu Mythos stuff - I think the attempts to minimize Lovecraft's racism, and the importance it played in his work, are unfortunate. Lovecraft was a great cosmic visionary, a man whose stories were driven by a nihilistic awareness of the vastness of the universe compared to our puny selves - but they were also driven by his terror of miscegenation and racial contamination, and we do him no favors by denying that.

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BillUSA
8/26/2014 07:36:54 am

I grew up in the town of Chester just south of Philadelphia amidst the racial issues and tensions of the 1960's. Out of my own ignorance I held some racist views, but they were gleaned from a lack of racial neutrality in my circle of influences. As I grew, I became wiser to the subject and today I do not tolerate racism.

But it's not so cut-and-dried for me. In other words, I don't look at the world through a "if-it-doesn't-promote-equality-it's-gotta-be-racism" lens. The fact that Lovecraft wrote in a time of open prejudice shouldn't be held against him because he's deceased and that age has elapsed. It's different than what Jimmy "The Greek" experienced when he lost his job due to racist remarks. Jimmy was living in a time of growing racial equality and should have considered his remarks before making them.

I'm not saying I condone each and every reaction to public statements that are racist, but the context of reaching back into our past to condemn people who were products of their time doesn't change anything. It doesn't mean I condone what folks like Mark Twain or H.P. Lovecraft wrote in regard to racism, but I don't exist in a vacuum where I believe that reverse editing is worth our while. In fact, it's childish, divisive and non-productive.

Like we say in the 12-step program I'm involved with, one has to accept their faults in order to improve, our species must also accept that our attitudes have been deplorable at times in order for us to become a more mature civilization. Just as I can't afford to think that my character flaws can be dismissed as being external in origin, humanity cannot afford to act like racism can be erased from our shelves and be better for it.

I can accept a change in the design of the award because an organization has to be extremely careful about using a person's likeness to represent them. It takes incredible foresight to go that way and I believe that many organizations design their awards so that they avoid such negative associations as Lovecraft does to racism.

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EP
8/26/2014 07:53:08 am

"Out of my own ignorance I held some racist views, but they were gleaned from a lack of racial neutrality in my circle of influences. As I grew, I became wiser to the subject and today I do not tolerate racism."

Admirable. (You've expressed some views about gay people that betray similar ignorance, however. Just a word to the wise.)

Reply
BillUSA
8/26/2014 01:42:14 pm

I understand your opinion. That I don't like homosexuality in my own life can't be taken to mean that I wish they crawl back into the closet. I just don't like how the homosexual community thinks it owes all of us a peek into their lifestyle. They have as much right to be here - despite their nonsensical belief that they are born that way - as anyone else. But it seems as if one doesn't engage in homosexual practices or so much as expresses a lack of support for same they are labeled as intolerant and opposed to them.

It isn't a fault of mine that a lack of understanding pervades society to the point where there is no margin of tolerance for those who oppose homosexuality for themselves and yet have a "live-and-let-live" attitude about homosexuals in general. It might be wrong of some to assume that those not at the head of the parade for homosexual rights has to be totally against them.

What is my fault is that I have yet to find a way to explain exactly what my point of view is. In short, homosexuality and homosexuals aren't for me - and contrary to seemingly popular belief I do reserve the right to feel that way and to express my opinion on the subject. But that doesn't mean I want to rid the Earth of them or get in the way of their effort to attain equal rights. If they want integration into society without abuse that's fine. I just don't want that sort of thing in my life - any more than I want the old druggies and alcoholics that I used to hang with (albeit for different reasons).

You might be surprised to know that in the 12-step program I am engaged with, there are several openly-homosexual men and women whom I've accepted into my circle of support who also know my stance on homosexuality. I was the featured speaker for a meeting in which a homosexual acquaintance is a member and the constituency is almost entirely homosexual. There too, I alluded to my support for their rights in and out of the rooms despite not being interested in homosexuality in my life. If anyone found that offensive that night not a one of them came to me to state as much.

See, some either don't recognize, or choose to ignore, the dividing line (being supportive of homosexual's without being homosexual). A lot of people use the meetings as a way to get laid despite advice from the teachings that we should all refrain from relationships in general for the first year or so. Of all the one's in the program whom I befriended, it took one to express his desire for getting horizontal to make me much more cautious.

I don't know any better way to say that I don't want anything to do with homosexuality in my private affairs while at the same time support their efforts to achieve equality in society. It's a fine line I admit EP, but a line that must exist in my life and I do my best to stay on it in such a way so as not to offend anyone without surrender. But I admit, it is difficult.

If you or anyone else agrees with me or not, that's fine. But as long as I can make my own choices, I don't see any reason to hide my opinion and get into lock-step because it is easier than trying to split this hair.

In closing, would it be fair to expect any homosexual to accept into their life the notion that heterosexuals and heterosexuality deserves a place within it?

EP
8/26/2014 02:20:33 pm

I wasn't talking about not wanting it "in your life". (Although I'm not sure where "your life" ends civil rights begin...)

I was talking about you saying before that homosexuality isn't "normal". And you saying just now that you "don't like how the homosexual community thinks it owes all of us a peek into their lifestyle."

What is this "homosexual community"? Do you think that there is less variety of views among homosexuals than among heterosexuals? What's a "peek"? Do you think that heterosexuals are entitled to be more open about their sexuality than homosexuals? That's not just "private life". That's a challenge of others' rights.

You also speak of "their nonsensical belief that they are born that way". Are you so sure that you know this issue to describe the belief of the vast majority of educated people that (at least a great many) homosexuals are "born that way" as "nonsensical"? Is that how a calm, rational person speaks about issues on which they aren't as informed as many of those with whom they disagree?

How is not wanting homosexuals "in your life" any different from not wanting blacks or Jews "in your life"? People don't live their lives in isolation. That is what tolerance of others is all about. Surely you'd find absurd and offensive the attitude of someone who didn't want heterosexuals "in their life". But if you think that your attitude is more warranted, then you are refusing to admit that homosexuals deserve lives free of hatred from others.

Most importantly, I wasn't talking about your rights. I do not wish to question them. I was talking about the nature of your views. You'd have as much of a right to retain your racist views, but you didn't. Because they were ignorant. So is it okay to have ignorant views sometimes, but not at other times?

You sound like a homophobe, in the strict sense. If you wish to remain one and hide behind your rights, then your claims to be against irrationality are hollow and hypocritical.

Mark L
8/26/2014 08:45:16 pm

Ah, choice. If you feel it's a choice to be gay, there's an extremely simple way to prove it, and to destroy homosexuality forever. You, BillUSA, need to have gay sex. If you choose to have sex, as an avowedly hetero guy, with another guy, then you could prove their lie about being born that way!

Funny how absolutely no-one has ever done this though, have they?

BillUSA
8/26/2014 09:36:36 pm

I see your point about my generalization and agree. To clarify any earlier statements I made to the effect, by "the homosexual community" I was referring to what some would term the "power homosexuals" - meaning GLAAD, Hollywood or any public entity that either threatens economic hardship to get businesses to fall into line or people who try to make it my business to know they are homosexual. I know several homosexuals whom I keep at arm's length so to say. Besides a few relatives who live thousands of miles away, the others are in that program. I'll help them in any way that is consistent with the steps. I'm not there to hook up (I wouldn't touch the females if I were wearing a spacesuit), I'm there to learn how to live another day clean. It's worked for me for over ten years.

I believe that you are generously combining racism and homosexuality. I have absolutely no problem with anyone from any race. But race and homosexuality are separate subjects. That's like saying a fringe theorist should believe everything Scott Wolter says if he believes everything Erich Von Daniken says. It's almost as if the world is trying to tell me that I have to embrace homosexuality if I embrace people of different races. That is just wrong.

You often hear of isolated people engaging in homosexual activities as a way of easing sexual tension. It happens in prisons mostly and I suspect that many folks who aren't able to deal with the opposite sex or are sexually unappealing turn to homosexuality for their sexual satisfaction. I'm of the belief - and I've posted this elsewhere on this blog - that for a species to produce newborns predisposed to engaging in non-reproductive sexual activity is a) anomalous and b) a biological dead end. I recognize there are accomplished experts who disagree but they are wrong. But that's just my opinion. I'm not about to write a paper on it even though we're approaching that end here on this blog.

I know that the term "homophobe" encompasses more than one's fear of homosexuals, but I reject the observation that I am such a person. Granted I don't support the lifestyle and keep any homosexual away from my most innermost circles, even though I support any homosexual in the 12 step program I'm involved in. I'll help anyone as long as it doesn't make me regret it. Does that make me a hypocrite? Well, yes, but that's a result of a society that is hell-bent on indoctrinating everyone toward homosexuality. I feel like it's open season on straight men and I work to discourage any such notion in the rooms.

I never once felt you were suggesting that I don't have any rights. I was referring to the unwritten state of affairs (or cultural atmosphere) regarding the homosexual movement if you will. It's as if the mantra is "Join or Die" with no acceptance or tolerance of people who prefer a heterosexual way of life. But my life and my choices are such that they don't interfere with anyone's civil rights. That's too broad of an assumption you made there.

I said earlier that I know that I'm splitting hairs here. I suppose that explaining all this makes it sound more complicated than it really is for me. I've always been aware of the dichotomy. But that's not something I struggle with because I know my intentions aren't malevolent. I'm merely exercising my choice as to how close to homosexuals I get. But it sounds as if I'm required to be a perfect human being who loves everyone and accepts everything without regard to my personal constitution. Would it be acceptable to suggest to a homosexual that they have to accept heterosexuals with the proviso that failure to do so would earn them the label of hypocrite or heterophobic?

Again, nothing stated here is an accusation toward you EP. It's me pointing a finger at the fashionable trend to surrender to the homosexual community (again, refer to my definition) while having to explain yourself in great detail as one defends their heterosexuality.

I feel that I explained myself in great detail in order to illustrate my opinion. You don't have to agree and I respect anyone's opinion even if it is contrary to mine. I don't think the blog subject was meant for just such a discussion but that's my fault for responding to your advisement. We can go on ad infinitum hitting this "tennis ball" of a topic, but that wouldn't add anything to the discussion for it would most likely devolve into a tit=for-tat arguing of the same points. You can have the last word but my involvement in this discussion ends here.

Byron DeLear link
8/27/2014 04:12:57 am

BillUSA --- I appreciate your candor, but it is also clear that you are homophobic, and I would encourage you to examine the foundation of your beliefs concerning freedom and equity. Equating homosexuality with druggies and/or alcoholics is absolutely bigoted, as you say, "I just don't want that sort of thing [homesexuality] in my life - any more than I want the old druggies and alcoholics that I used to hang with (albeit for different reasons)."

Being accepting of other people, races, classes, etc. does not mean you're all of sudden homosexual, or that homosexuality is in your life. Gender and sexuality are on a spectrum for all human beings.

You also shockingly said, "for a species to produce newborns predisposed to engaging in non-reproductive sexual activity is a) anomalous and b) a biological dead end."

Referencing a comment I made earlier on this post about racial purity and propaganda, I'd appreciate if you made the above sentiment in the original German.

EP
8/27/2014 04:47:19 am

"by "the homosexual community" I was referring to what some would term the "power homosexuals" - meaning GLAAD, Hollywood or any public entity that either threatens economic hardship to get businesses to fall into line or people who try to make it my business to know they are homosexual"

Oh my.

You can't expect people to just drop this topic when you go and say things like that...

More to the point, since you seem to be unwilling to address the point, no one is questioning your right to be a homophobe. I'm merely pointing out that (a) your attitude stems from homophobia, rather than from desire to defend your rights, and (b) your homophobia stems from ignorance, as you have amply demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere.

As for the race analogy, you either didn't get it or felt like your trivial statement about race and sexuality being different helps you answer the criticism implicit in the analogy. Or perhaps you actually think that homosexuals are more "different" from heterosexuals than different races are from each other...

And yes, the world *is* trying to tell you that you have to embrace homosexuality like you have to embrace different races. (You don't have to have sex with people of different races if you choose not to, right?) It is you not wishing to do so for no reason other than personal distaste that makes you a homophobe.

EP
8/27/2014 05:14:10 am

"for a species to produce newborns predisposed to engaging in non-reproductive sexual activity is a) anomalous and b) a biological dead end. I recognize there are accomplished experts who disagree but they are wrong."

OMG I just noticed this. Wow. Remember, BillUSA is a man who likes to pat himself on the back for how rational he is.

I don't know what you can say to a man who believes he knows better than the acknowledged experts in spite of lacking any relevant credentials, but...

First, look up 'anomalous'. You are aware that it doesn't mean 'bad', right? Albinos are "anomalous". Even if homosexuality was anomalous, why would it be relevant to how homosexuals should be treated, or any other moral and social issues related to homosexuality?

Second, you are aware that homosexuals are able to reproduce, right? So even if GLAAD, Hollywood and other "power homosexuals" made everyone gay (some people believe the strangest things!), humanity wouldn't go extinct.

Third, even if no homosexual person ever had children, they are a minority. Their impact on population is negligible.

But hey, you think you can disagree with the experts because you know better.

Also, please explain how masturbation isn't anomalous and a biological dead end.

Harry
8/27/2014 12:25:31 am

Mark Twain actually deplored racism, at least later in life. Although he wrote racist dialogues and monologues, he did it to satirize racism.

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I Have a Dream...
8/26/2014 01:56:12 pm

Andrew Johnson's presidential papers and his public remarks
simply do not have as many racist observations as HPL's body
of work.Woodrow Wilson was more polite when not questioning
racism or segregation. Mark Twain perceptively writes about all
his characters. Even with these juicy quotes Jason provided, it
still is a toss-up in my mind, I'd prefer an inclusiveness that has
a bust of Octavia Butler next to H.P Lovecraft. This is fairness.

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EP
8/26/2014 02:03:52 pm

I have a dream where . doesn't shitpost

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me
8/26/2014 02:19:52 pm

I have a dream about a future where we all are more tolerant.

Only Me
8/26/2014 02:51:44 pm

I have a dream where I can be more tolerant of someone's posting habits, if they contained salient points and remained on topic.

EP
8/27/2014 04:53:10 am

@ Only Me

Keep your eyes on the prize, man. Eyes on the prize.

me
8/27/2014 05:55:45 am

Allen Ginzberg's "Howl" and HPL's "The Dunwitch Horror" are
two examples of prose in print that let Harlan Ellison write "I have no mouth, and i must scream" and get it critically accepted.

i have a dream...
9/4/2014 12:13:48 am

i have actually read some of
Finley Peter Dunne's better pieces...
yes... when i was younger. at the
time i wasn't quite comparing him to
Mark Twain, but if we need to refresh
what good satire after Jonathan Swift
consists of, a few of his brain*freezes are that.


http://college.cengage.com/english/lauter/heath/4e/students/author_pages/late_nineteenth/dunne_fi.html


Dunne's career took a sharp turn in 1898, when Mr. Dooley's satirical coverage of the Spanish-American War brought him to the attention of readers outside Chicago. Beginning with his scoop of "Cousin George" Dewey's victory at Manila, Mr. Dooley's reports of military and political bungling during the "splendid little war" were widely reprinted, and national syndication soon followed. By the time Dunne moved to New York in 1900, Mr. Dooley was the most popular figure in American journalism. From this point until World War I, Dunne's gadfly mind ranged over the spectrum of newsworthy events and characters, both national and international: from Teddy Roosevelt's health fads to Andrew Carnegie's passion for libraries; from the invariable silliness of politics to society doings at Newport; from the Boer and Boxer Rebellions abroad to the so-called Negro, Indian, and immigration problems in the United States.

Mr. Dooley's perspective was consistently skeptical and critical. The salutary effect of most pieces was the exposure of affectation and hypocrisy through undercutting humor and common sense. The most frequently quoted Dooleyisms indicate this thrust. Teddy Roosevelt's egocentric account of the Rough Riders is retitled, "Alone in Cuba." The rationale of American imperialists becomes "Hands acrost th' sea an' into somewan else's pocket." High Court solemnity is undercut with a memorable phrase: "America follows th' flag, but th' Supreme Court follows th' illiction returns." A fanatic is defined as "a man that does what he thinks th' Lord wud do if He knew th' facts iv th' case." Although he joined Ida Tarbell and Lincoln Steffens in taking over the American Magazine in 1906, Dunne was not himself a progressive reformer. He viewed the world as irrevocably fallen and unimprovable, and many Dooley pieces reflect their author's tendency toward fatalism. More pronounced in the early Chicago work than in the lighter national commentary, Dunne's darker side may be explained by his roots in the oppressed, colonized culture of Ireland and his journalist's education into the harsh realities of nineteenth-century urban life.

Drew link
8/26/2014 02:12:51 pm

Lovecraft also hated Poles - I've done a lot of work into retracing his visits to Salem and his letters are always filled with complaints about the Polish community on Derby street. It's actually using that bile that I was able to place the location of the (Dreams in the) Witch House in Salem/Arkham.

I can see how a person interested in discussing HPL's racism at a panel will be unsatisfied. Unless the panel is focused on it from the outset, the majority of attendees will not be interested in discussing it. "UNGH, this again? I want to talk about madness out of time and space, not actually serious real world issues!"

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CHV
8/26/2014 02:26:17 pm

Jack London was a racist too. I still love his work. As for Lovecraft, I heartily agree that his prose is like plowing thru molasses. But he was a great idea man.

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BillUSA
8/26/2014 09:42:27 pm

Careful now. By someone else's logic, that would make you a racist.

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Only Me
8/26/2014 06:53:16 pm

I've read Nickle's blog post, and the ones by Joshi and Older.

Frankly, I see the exchange between Joshi and Older as an argument involving fanboys, something akin to the "Batman can kick anybody's ass!" argument among comic book fans. While Joshi doesn't do himself any favors, Older, likewise, hasn't been overly mature. For example, Older's reply to a comment left on his blog:

"If you think Lovecraft is a genius writer…There’s no hope for you. Your only defense here is that others agree with you. You haven’t made a case, you’re just being snide. Keep it moving, nobody here’s interested in your opinion."

Wow, Older. His juvenile response seems founded on "how dare he have a personal opinion not in tune with mine!"

Personally, I could care less about who's face is on the WFA's award. It *is* entertaining to see two grown men duking it out on the Internet, in favor of their respective idols.



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Matt Mc
8/27/2014 01:07:40 am

I agree this whole thing sounds like two kids saying I know better than you and in a few oh yeahs and it is no different that the verbal slams in the playground.

Overall it is unproductive and leads to nowhere, which is a shame because the question about whether Lovecrafts bust should be an award based on his personal beliefs is one that should be had, as should someone like Orson Scott Cards, or the countless racist (or other controversial figures) who have schools and other public buildings named after them. I believe discussion about racism and race are a good thing and do in the long term promote better understanding. Now is the bust something that should be given as an award well that is up to the organization and its members but I would rather have it be the award and lead to a discussion like this then having people just ignore the discussion.

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Harry
8/27/2014 12:43:45 am

Lovecraft's anti-semitism may be sharply contrasted with the views of J.R.R. Tolkien, who is unquestionably a fantasy writer. When he was preparing to publish a German translation of The Hobbit and his publisher in Nazi Germany asked for proof that he was Aryan, he reportedly drafted the following response for his British publisher to send:

" I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Flindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people….

"I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride."

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Decimus
8/27/2014 03:56:24 am

I would say a much better argument could be made for replacing the bust on the World Fantasy Award with Tolkien on pure "merit" grounds. Tolkien was more of a pure fantasy author, he did show excellent use of words (although I personally dislike his style), and he was not overtly racist. Although again a few such themes are hinted at in his work, he does seem to have genuinely struggled with them.

But I do agree it seems this particular dispute has lost the original focus in a flurry of ad-hominem attacks between Joshi and Older.

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EP
8/27/2014 04:49:58 am

Tolkien may not have been an anti-Semite, but he was pretty racist.

I think they should just make the award an abstract geometrical figure and put an end to all this nonsense once and for all.

spookyparadigm
8/27/2014 06:03:25 am

Just give out rings inscribed in the language of Mordor. How is this not obvious?

Only Me
8/27/2014 06:15:00 am

Funny you should mention that, EP. One guy suggested on both Nickle's blog and Older's that the award be a tablet with cuneiform, to represent the age and scope of fantasy writing...or something to that effect.

I don't suppose a quill, inkwell and paper would suffice?

EP
8/27/2014 06:17:36 am

I was thinking more along the lines of of some tentacles writhing within a frame of alien geometry, but I suppose if you want to be lame that would do :)

Only Me
8/27/2014 06:45:54 am

I just don't think there should be an award that requires the winner to roll for anal circumference :)

EP
8/27/2014 06:50:00 am

Where you stick the statuette is entirely up to you... Unless you're like BillUSA and worry that Hollywood "power homosexuals" are trying to make you gay :)

AW Hendry link
8/28/2014 04:42:16 am

"One guy suggested on both Nickle's blog and Older's that the award be a tablet with cuneiform, to represent the age and scope of fantasy writing...or something to that effect."
That was me. I suggested the opening passage of The Epic of Gilgamesh in cuneiform as it is the oldest example of fantastical story telling.

Harry
8/27/2014 11:33:41 pm

EP, I am not convinced that Tolkien was racist, either (at leas by the standards of his day). In a 1959 speech at Oxford, he reportedly said, "I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones." He also evidently criticized South African treatment of nonwhites in a private letter to his son during World War II.

For a discussion of perceived racism in Tolkien's work and evidence of Tokien's own views on the subject, see:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien%27s_Works.
There are also a variety of links on the subject at:
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/60536856891/tolkien-and-racism

Reply
EP
8/28/2014 04:07:41 am

I never meant to suggest that Tolkien was a vicious, hateful racist. He certainly wasn't. However, look at what is presented as evidence against his racism. Sure Tolkien thought the Holocaust and the Apartheid were abhorrent. But it's not like all racists approved of them.

While I certainly haven't studied this issue, racial issues are portrayed in his works in a way that is consistent with the the kind of view of race we now reject. Did he write this way to help spread racism? I don't believe so. Was he consciuosly hateful toward any real group of people? I don't have any evidence of that. But neither is required to make one racist.

I guess if you would like for me to be more precise I mean that he was pretty racist by *our* standards, not by the standards of his day (especially if we mean for the latter to require predisposition toward genocidal and oppressive racial politics).

.
9/4/2014 12:23:33 am

EP --- i see that in my absence you also dumped on Thomas Edward Lawrence in addition to JR.R. Tolkien, this has me curious. You do know the character Clause Rains plays in
David Lean's LAWRENCE OF ARABIA is a total scriptwriter's
composite and that Peter O'Toole, T.E.L's distant cousin
really liked to drink heavy, and perhaps adds to the madness.
Had the British Establishment listened twice as often to poor
Colonel Lawrence, our own policy concerning Iraq would be
half as screwed up today. It is beyond bollixed up. I am in
the opinion he is the last person to have a perceptive idea
about the Mid-East and he dies in the 1930s. Trust me on this.

.
9/4/2014 12:27:03 am

Claude Rains --- not "Clause" i hit the "S" key, not the "D"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Dryden <--- a curious fellow!

.
9/4/2014 01:00:54 am

EP --- Admittedly you did qualify your glib remark...

as i said, we are beyond bollixed up, our experts

are a major fail. dumping on poor Col. Lawrence

because we've compounded the mistakes of the

past in a bad way seems rather bad form, all told.

PaulN. link
8/27/2014 09:56:12 am

To paraphrase a qoute from Alexander Dumas (as I do not have the exact qoute at hand), "Do not judge the past by the present, for it was a different time with different ways". As an example, look back to 100 years ago. You had a prevalent use of alcohol and tobbaco, drug use had just been outlawed by the Mann Act of 1914, racism was prevalent but not always recognised ;especially by those progressives who thought they were helping te lower classes and inferior people.
Again, in 100 years think of how our descendants will consider us. Will they think of us the same way we now think of those who have gone before us, and consider us to be ignorant and un-knowing.

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PaulN. link
8/27/2014 11:58:46 am

Warner Bros. and Walter Lantz studios are both examples of un-recognised racism. From the late 1930's through the war years, they released a number of cartoons that by todays standards are considered as racist.
From Termite Terrace we have Going to Meeting, Coal Black and de Seben Dwarves, and Tin Pan Alley Cat. Tin Pan Alley Cat was done as a tribute to Fats Waller, and the creators were genuinely shocked when it received harsh criticism as being racist.
Walter Lantz studios produced Boogie Woogy Bugle Boy and Scrub Me Mama with a Boogy Woogie Beat. The latter one also exceptionally harsh criticism as portraying blacks as shiftless and lazy. Walter Lantz thought he was merely parodying life on the Mississippi river.
Honorary mention goes to George Pal (Belgian emigre I believe) who created Jasper and the Scarecrow.
Anyway to, wrap up, racism is often in the eye of the beholder. Awareness and sensitivity make us able to understand it better and try to avoid getting caught in its tangle definitions. Sometimes though it's better to sit back and not over-analyze things, just ask chubby white guy who keeps being taunted by a certain wascally wabbit.

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Ralph E Vaughan
8/31/2014 03:47:03 am

Lovecraft was supposed to be racist because that was the time in which he lived and the cultural baggage handed to every WASP, but he wasn't very good at it, treating everyone he met with courtesy and respect, even if they were of ethnic groups he had written about. Later in life, he admitted how much his upbringing had screwed him up, but, sadly, did not live long enough to do anything but admit it. As far as Older is concerned, it's not that he's not famous, but marginal and always will be. As Lovecraft is judged racist by the future, so might Older by future generations with differing standards. He is certainly ignorant, recommending a science fiction writer for a fantasy trophy, and perhaps even a bit racist for implying "anybody but a white guy." And, yes, if you attack idols, their followers will hit back, so he should not be surprised at all the attention he's received...and maybe counted on.

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F.D.R.
9/4/2014 12:30:14 am

Redemptive he voted for me, even
though I was not a total socialist...

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Residents Fan
9/14/2014 09:14:25 am

" He is certainly ignorant, recommending a science fiction writer for a fantasy trophy, and perhaps even a bit racist for implying "anybody but a white guy." And, yes, if you attack idols, their followers will hit back, so he should not be surprised at all the attention he's received...and maybe counted on."

Yes. For instance,l ook at how furious the late Christopher Hitchens got whenever anyone ever criticised his beloved George
Orwell.

As for the statue issue...I can understand people people of colour being offended by a statue of a writer who, however great his fictional
work, held reprensible views on ethnic minorities.

Having said that, I think Older is mistaken to ask for the
award to be changed to an image of Butler- while she
is a great writer, she is not known for her fantasy
work, (you might as well suggest changing to
WFA to Chester Himes or Zane Grey) and the
suggestion seems to be solely because her
political views are congenial to Older.

Changing the Award to a fantasy writer without racist views (Tolkien ? Jorge Luis Borges? Ray Bradbury? ) or simply to
a symbol would be a much better idea.

As for S. T. Joshi...bloody hell, any respect I had for
him has now gone down the drain. Implying someone
who disagrees with you is "a " half-crazed idiot"
and not "a sane and rational person" -this is a school
bully masquerading as a literary critic. (Given that
China Mieville's essay in "At the Mountains of Madness"
contains strong criticism of Lovecraft's racism, for
Joshi to call it "flattering" is inaccurate).

As for saying the work of "Nnedi Okorafor, and China Miéville" will descended into the voracious maw of oblivion" - how the
expletive does this Andrei Zhdanov of fantastic literature know that nobody will be reading Okorafor and Mieville's work in 2088?

Reply
W. H. Pugmire link
9/17/2014 05:09:46 am

I was the one Older was responding to with his moronic "If you think Lovecraft is a genius there is no hope for you" or whatever it was comment. I followed with a comment from Peter Straub, who also called E'ch-Pi-El a genius. Of course, being such a complete Lovecraft fanboy does nothing to "help" Lovecraft's reputation--you just look extreme and foolish. But Lovecraft needs no such assistance, because his fiction is excellent in every way, his beautiful prose style is near perfection, and -- oops, there I go again. I love S. T.'s blog and the hilarious reaction they are getting from certain crybabies. I shall do allI can to encourage him to continue.

Reply
Residents Fan
9/17/2014 10:53:59 am

Hello, Mr. Pugmire.

"I love S. T.'s blog and the hilarious reaction they are getting from certain crybabies. I shall do allI can to encourage him to continue."

I understand Joshi is a friend of yours, and that he also favours
an aggressive style of polemic * but do you not think
some of things he has written are simply unfair? Joshi implied
the writer China Mieville was "half-crazed", and his
arguments are not "sane and rational". That's not
something written to get a "hilarious reaction", nor does
it fit any definition of journalistic "fair comment" I know of.

Something that hasn't been discussed, AFAIK, is that the
most objectionable racial statements people are complaining over
are actually from Lovecraft's LETTERS -private documents. These
were never, AFAIK, intended for publication. Lovecraft's
devotees, while they did sterling work preserving his
ideas in his letters, also left the dark side of the man
far more visible. Whether or not Lovecraft was more
or less racist than the average person of his time and
background, he certainly left far more of his racism
in print.

* Perhaps Joshi thinks he's writing like one of his heroes,
H. L. Mencken.

Reply
Man From The South
9/18/2014 06:07:46 am

"Yes. For instance,l ook at how furious the late Christopher Hitchens got whenever anyone ever criticised his beloved George
Orwell."

Joshi seems to identify very strongly with Lovecraft, and
your Orwell/Hitchens comparsion is thus interesting.

The contradiction arises when Joshi attempts to promote
Lovecraft not just as a excellent weird writer (which
he was) but also an important thinker. Since a large
part of Lovecraft's thought is concerned with racist
ideas, Joshi's promotion of 'Lovecraft the
thinker' brings the racism issue up in a way simply focusing
on his fiction does not.

Reply
Man From The South
9/18/2014 06:28:05 am

I forget to mention- while Joshi's dislike for Robert E. Howard's
fiction is well known, many people are unaware he made an
appalling joke about Howard several years ago:

" [Robert M.]Price: Howard held the gun to his own head.

[Audience laughs.]

Joshi: Yeah, yeah. I only wish Howard had held the gun to his head a little _earlier_. "

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/alt.horror.cthulhu/joshi$20$2B$20%22colin$20wilson%22/alt.horror.cthulhu/JpaXBOcXg9I/8vGrLfdGU-0J

Not very nice, especially considered how upset HPL was
at Howard's death.

Reply
Residents Fan
9/19/2014 10:25:13 am

Here some interesting stats about the blog posts of S. T. Joshi
on this ruckus:

August 23, 2014

Joshi writes 2661 words about the Lovecraft and racism issue,
and finishes with:

"I grow weary of this preposterous kerfuffle. "

September 1, 2014

Joshi writes 665 words about the Lovecraft/racism issue. He
again claims to dislike discussing the subject:

"And with that, I am (I hope) done."

September 13, 2014

Joshi writes 734 words about the Lovecraft/racism controversy.

September 16, 2014 --
A Few More Delicate Words on Laura Miller

This criticism of Laura Miller contains
941 words about the same issue as above.

September 18, 2014 --
Daniel Older Speaks!

Joshi writes 532 words about the same issue and claims

"As I’ve said before, I weary of this debate. "

Does he truly "weary of the debate" ? He keeps returning to the "debate" obsessively.

Complaints about people focusing totally on HPL's racism (as
opposed to, HPL's fiction, his literary criticism or his interest in
American history) have a point, but Joshi's complaints about
this issue don't - when he keeps bringing up the subject of HPL's racism again and again and again...

I suspect we'll see him mention this subject at length before this year is out.

Reply
Knygathin
11/26/2014 04:01:16 am

Many posters seem to take for granted that racism is automatically something "bad". Tragically they are completely brainwashed by jewish controlled media, and its PC propaganda.

Racism is Love for your own people! Not hatred of others! Love for stability and a harmonious society. Hatred only develops when ethnically foreign people intrude upon your own geographic territory, and cause social chaos, divide, and criminality.

There is no wrongness about Lovecraft's racial ideas. They are sane, and he was correct all the way. History has proved him right. Multiculturalism is an abomination, as is commercialism, capitalism, materialism, and their "feeder", mass immigration. Racism is healthy. Anti-racism is against Nature (or rather call it anti-white-ism, because its ideas are forced down upon us by non-whites. And its purpose is to move us aside, lessen our position and culture, and make room for themselves) .

Reply
Mike
11/11/2015 05:22:10 pm

Gandhi also has some quotes admiring hitler. Considering lovecraft died in 1937, before the extent of hitlers evil was known, lovecraft having an admiring quote of hitler is nothing incriminating and pointing it out is only done to associate the name of evil (hitler) to inflame the audience.

Reply
Casey Allen
5/31/2016 03:14:49 pm

Back in Lovecraft's time, most Americans were racists, so this was a strongly ingrained attribute for his time. Does it make it "okay" for him to have written racist comments in his letters? Well, if you read what he wrote from the vantage point of NOW, then yes, yes, his comments are provoking...However, you're not automatically a fanboy if you love Lovecraft's stories, his writing really was admirable. Maybe not to the less is better school of people who love Hemingway, but this is a matter of apples versus oranges. Personally, I believe that most people today haven't the patience for most writing written back then, period--they'd also have troubles reading Henry James or Joseph Conrad. If you acclimatize your mind to his prose style, and climb over the present aversion to adjectives, then..Lovecraft's writing is enjoyable, at least in my opinion.

Reply
George Ellis
1/9/2020 10:43:07 pm

My experience is that the people who like to fling the word "racist" at others are usually racists themselves. Hypocrites and witch-hunters. Isn't it just as wrong to judge a man by a single character flaw while overlooking the other more positive aspects of the man as it is to judge someone by the color of their skin and not the whole person? Besides, Lovecraft changed his views considerably as he matured and even if he didn't, he had a right to his opinions. It's time for all the crybabies to get over their sensitive feelings and psychological hangups before we all end up losing our rights to free speech and freedom of thought.

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