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Scott Creighton Claims a Medieval Pyramid Story Is an Ancient Egyptian Text

11/23/2020

92 Comments

 
Regular readers will remember Scott Creighton, who has published a number of poorly researched books about Egyptian history containing various occult and fringe conspiracy theories. I criticized him in a previous review for writing about medieval Arabic-language pyramid myths as an accurate guide to ancient Egyptian practices, and it seems that he didn’t quite take the lesson.
Creighton has a new book coming out next year, and his publisher posted an excerpt on Amazon in which he finds a new way to misuse medieval pyramid myths. Get a load of this section in which he alleges that the recently discovered and still unexplored “void” in the Great Pyramid is some sort of “recovery vault” to restore life and knowledge after the Flood—the essence of the medieval myth:
This idea of a “Recovery Vault” is not unlike our modern-day seed vault on Svalbaard in the Arctic Circle, which opened in 2008. I did not, however, arrive at this Recovery Vault conclusion of my own accord--I took my cue from what the ancient Egyptian texts tell us:

“. . . The king then directed the astrologers to ascertain by taking the altitude whether the stars foretold any great catastrophe, and the result announced an approaching deluge. The king ordered them to inquire whether or not this calamity would befall Egypt; and they answered, yes, the flood will overwhelm the land, and destroy a large portion of it for some years. . . . upon which the king ordered the Pyramids to be built, and the predictions of the priests to be Inscribed upon columns, and upon the large stones belonging to them; and he placed within them his treasures, and all his valuable property, together with the bodies of his ancestors.”

And there it is--this text suggests that the Big Void within the Great Pyramid is a chamber built specifically to house and protect, “. . . the bodies of his [Sūrīd’s] ancestors.”
Now this is an interesting mess. I suppose we should start by insisting quite loudly that the passage Creighton quotes is not an ancient Egyptian text. It is a paragraph from the Akhbār al-zamān, a tenth or eleventh century Arabic treatise on the history of Egypt.
 
Creighton has quoted from the version translated in Col. Richard William Howard Vyse’s Operations from 1837, which is both incomplete and wrongly attributed to the historian al-Mas’udi. In prior publications, Creighton had given al-Mas’udi as the author of the passage and identified it as medieval. Almost three years ago, Creighton had attributed the same text to Mas’udi reporting a Coptic oral tradition that dated back to the Old Kingdom.  I criticized him for it, and now the same supposedly Coptic oral story has become both an ancient written text and “ancient Egyptian.”
 
As Abu Ma’shar and the actual al-Mas’udi testified in the ninth and tenth centuries respectively, the story Creighton believes represents an ancient tradition about the Great Pyramid was first applied to the Egyptian temples, particularly the great temple at the alchemical center of Akhmim, and not the pyramids. As Abu Ma’shar explicitly wrote: “Fearing the destruction of knowledge and the disappearance of the arts in the Flood, he [Hermes] built the great temples; one is a veritable mountain called the Temple in Akhmim, in which he carved representations of the arts and instruments, including engraved explanations of science, in order to pass them on to those who would come after him, lest he see them disappear from the world” (Ibn Juljul, Tabaqat al-atibbaʾ 9-10, my trans.). In turn, this traces back to Greco-Roman stories from Late Antiquity that referred to Egyptian temples and tombs in the same terms (e.g. Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman History 22.15.30).
 
There is no record of the stories being applied to the pyramids prior to the late 900s CE.

My own book on the subject of pyramid myths and legends comes out in August 2021 from the trade division of Indiana University Press.
92 Comments
Martin Stower
11/23/2020 06:45:46 pm

Progress of the quote.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/312992-hidden-chamber-found-in-great-pyramid#comment-6268072#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1189963#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

https://grahamhancock.com/creightons9/#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Void-Enigma-Ancestors/dp/1591434025#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

Reply
Hanslune
11/24/2020 04:35:59 pm

Howdy Martin

Yes I put a link to JC's comment into a thread 'hosted' by SC at Above Top Secret forum.

Lets see how long it takes SC to have it deleted!

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1271835/pg2

Reply
Martin Stower
11/25/2020 09:24:08 am

No reaction so far, but then the post before yours is dated September 19, so not exactly a live discussion.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1271835/pg2#pid25583203#:~:text=Hanslune

Martin Stower
11/25/2020 12:17:48 pm

We may, however, it seems, look forward to further excerpts.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1271835/pg1#:~:text=As%20the%20publication%20date%20nears%2C%20I%20will%20be%20posting%20some%20excerpts%20from%20it

T. Franke link
11/24/2020 05:11:47 am

It is always telling if somebody repeats an error after he has been clearly informed that it is an error.

But I heard now (from the Amazon book preview) for the first time of the "Big Void" in the Giza pyramid, and I found: It is true, they detected a big empty unknown space in the pyramid in 2017. I did not know this. And I am reading the news daily. What does this say about the media? And now, after three years, they still have not managed to drill a small entrance to the Big Void. What does this say about the Egyptian authorities?

Reply
Kent
11/24/2020 09:23:52 am

It speaks less to the media than to your choices as a consumer.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5259801/Is-throne-METEORITES-inside-Great-Pyramid.html
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/egyptian-space-rock-news-update-a-pebble-from-another-galaxy-and-a-throne-of-meteoric-iron
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/review-of-ancient-aliens-s13e07-earth-station-egypt
https://www.bernerzeitung.ch/wissen/geschichte/beruehmteste-pyramide-gibt-neue-raetsel-auf/story/10558175
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/11/great-pyramid-giza-void-discovered-khufu-archaeology-science/
https://www.nzz.ch/wissenschaft/ein-mysterioeser-hohlraum-in-der-cheops-pyramide-ld.1325844

As for the Egyptians, they are quite sensibly beginning with the least invasive approach. The thing'll likely still be there in a few years.

Reply
T. Franke link
11/24/2020 03:13:52 pm

It is not the first time that such a space is detected, and it is always the same story: They (Egyptian authorities and Egyptologists) talk a lot about being cautious, and in the end they will just drill a hole (which was clear from the beginning, since no other way is possible). The technology is all there and all is said and methods are known, so they just could have done it in these three years.

Or do you expect that they will do something else than drilling a hole? Do you expect the invention of Star Trek beaming? I can tell you, they will drill a hole. Sooner or later.

The media do not cover such cultural events any more on page one. There is no identification with history any more. It is perceived as a curiosity, as an entertainment, not as a message with a potential meaning. There is no idea that the way we live and think today depends on developments in Egypt thousands of years ago.

And consumers are not educated to know this, anymore. So the media adapt to the uneducated consumers. A vicious circle. How to break it?

This hidden chamber is of utmost importance. You know what was found in similar chambers: Graffiti of the time. Very speaking. I want to know what is in this chamber. I have no understanding for stalling and delaying.

In the end they will drill a hole, believe me. A simple hole. With technique available for years. And all talk of waiting for being cautious will turn out to be utter nonsense.

Drilling a small hole *is* cautious.

Jim
11/24/2020 07:37:13 pm

"It is not the first time that such a space is detected, and it is always the same story: They (Egyptian authorities and Egyptologists) talk a lot about being cautious, and in the end they will just drill a hole (which was clear from the beginning, since no other way is possible). The technology is all there and all is said and methods are known, so they just could have done it in these three years."

Sure, send in the Laginas !
Not buying that you know better than the pros, It seems a little arrogant to me.
Drilling into the pyramids, besides causing damage, has not always been successful. In the 90s they intended to drill a 200 foot hole but only got ten feet before hitting sand.

"Widespread criticism arose after they later got permission from Egyptian antiquity officials to drill a hole 200 feet long and 1 inch wide in the Pyramid's wall to photograph a room. They drilled only 10 feet before reaching sand."

https://www.deseret.com/1995/8/27/19189921/peepholes-in-pyramids-pique-a-protest

" And as long as the Pyramids are standing, attempts will continue to preserve them for eternity. That is why some experts are demanding greater caution be taken to discern experienced restorers from amateurs and safe technologies from harmful."

Also perhaps we should wait for the results from the Japanese non invasive program before we start drilling away.

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2020/01/japanese-team-to-re-scan-great-pyramid.html

We have waited 4500 years, we can wait a few more, especially considering the huge strides technology has taken in recent years in developing non invasive methods, these will only get better.

Kent
11/24/2020 08:37:40 pm

"It is always telling if somebody repeats an error after he has been clearly informed that it is an error."

You, Sir, are the Defektskoenig. If you think all news needs to be on the front page of the newspaper there is something wrong with you and it raises the obvious question: Why more than one page?

Tell me what media you consume and I will tell you where and when you missed the story.

"It is not the first time that such a space is detected, and it is always the same story" No, it's NOT always the same story. Specifically, in this case the method of discovery was novel.

"So the media adapt to the uneducated consumers. A vicious circle. How to break it?" Not my problem. YOU are the one who didn't see the articles.

"This hidden chamber is of utmost importance." That's a gratuitous assertion which I gratuitously deny, according to the rules of rhetoric. The onus (Latin for "big stone") is on you to prove it. Scoop of vanilla, scoop of chocolate, don't waste my time.

"Drilling a small hole *is* cautious." My term was "least invasive". Drilling a hole is invasive. Please do not try to put words or anything else in my mouth.

I get it, you got caught out and feel bad because you missed something obvious and easy. Move on, everyone else has.

T. Franke link
11/25/2020 10:09:04 am

I am feeling pretty well, your priorities aren't, and believe me ..... in the end they will drill this hole.

Kent
11/25/2020 12:36:14 pm

Let's make a wager then. If you outlive me (many have tried) and they drill a hole during your lifetime, you win.

Lux rhetoricus you are not.

E.P. Grondine
11/25/2020 08:57:45 pm

"The media do not cover such cultural events any more on page one. There is no identification with history any more. It is perceived as a curiosity, as an entertainment, not as a message with a potential meaning. There is no idea that the way we live and think today depends on developments in Egypt thousands of years ago."

Nice summary.You are correct. It is interesitig that we get cheap blather on impact events, The search of the Holocene start Impact blemishes gets no coverage.

I do see where Andrew Lawler from Philllips Publishing has moved on to a successful career writing about ancient history, and good on him, Our own Jason's moundbuilders book came close, but sadly, no cigar.


Kent
11/26/2020 03:33:45 pm

Here's a hint. When you get your first publisher, then you can offer Jason advice. No one cares about your stuff because science is still not decided on it. You are a bitter old man offering a published author unsolicited advice on how to improve his published books. It's not a good look. People of substance use private channels for that sort of thing, but you are more the "look at me!" sort.

Andrew Lawler? Is there no nonsense to which you will not hitch your wagon? You are the Dhani Ywahoo of male fake Indians.

Larry storch
11/28/2020 02:18:50 am

E.P. Grondine, I’m not going to pretend that I typically agree with you, but your viewpoints are certainly thought provoking and unique. Regardless, I think we all recognize who the real “bitter old man” is in this dialogue.

Doc rock
11/28/2020 11:23:24 pm

I dont think that the average person is chomping at the bit to read about a void in a pyramid or are losing sleep over when they will drill into it. The people who want this type of thing done yesterday tend to be conspiracy theorist types who push the narrative that a cabal led by Zahi Hawass are dragging their feet because they dont want the world to know that the precise directions to Hancock's lost civilization or the secrets of the universe are inscribed on the walls.

Jim
11/29/2020 10:18:20 am

Doc, my theory is that when they say they drilled and found sand in a void, that is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by the Smithsonian and academia to hide the fact that it was full of hooked X's, Templar treasure, the remains of many giants along with the entire ninth Roman legion still alive.

Doc rock
11/30/2020 07:12:57 am

Is it really a void or is it actually filled with copper that registers differently in the scan than the surrounding stone. Now we know where all that great lakes copper went. Hell with drilling, let's get after it with jackhammers. The world deserves the truth!

Jim
11/30/2020 10:51:20 am

Maybe Rudy can start a lawsuit to get all the stolen copper back.

Kent
11/30/2020 04:38:46 pm

Maybe Trudeau can with a majority of the vote.

Nat Thur
12/1/2020 06:26:00 pm

If anyone in the Egyptian Department of Antiquities has homeowners insurance i am sure it will cover their defense in the lawsuit.

Jim
12/1/2020 09:25:26 pm

As long as they don't have a lawyer who took a a pre-law major, the Scales of justice may be against you.

Jim
11/24/2020 09:55:58 am

" What does this say about the Egyptian authorities? "

Hopefully it says they are advancing with caution, as it should be.
It's been around for 45 centuries or so, why rush things ?
Leave it to the pros, I'm sure they have their reasons.

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Kent
11/26/2020 12:57:31 pm

"Not buying that you know better than the pros, It seems a little arrogant to me."

But he is reading the news daily! Show some respect, won't you?

Crash55
11/24/2020 10:47:43 am

I watched a show on the detection of the void. IT may not actually be a void but just an area with very low density - loose rubble fill for example. It is also a ways in from the outside and rather high up for drilling into it is not easy.

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Jim
11/24/2020 03:15:00 pm

Most likely filled with grain.

Crash55
11/24/2020 08:10:36 pm

Jim - highly unlikely. Sounds like something Ben Carson would have claimed

Kent
11/24/2020 09:06:42 pm

What is something filled with something if not a void? The remedial work never ends.

Crash55
11/25/2020 08:11:34 am

Kent, if it is filled with something (other than air) it is not a void. Per Webster’s a void is an empty space.

In this case they are using the term void as neutral word to describe the volumes they discovered as these volumes have much lower density than the surrounding structures. They don’t know if it is one empty space or many (like the roof supports above the kings chamber) or loosely filled with rubble. They don’t even know the actual shape or orientation of the space just it’s approximate size and location.

Jim
11/25/2020 09:52:47 am

Well, perhaps it is where they store their lightbulbs !

I kid, I kid.

Kent
11/25/2020 12:52:41 pm

If you put something into an empty space, is it still empty? Do empty spaces even exist? What makes air so special? Are you in charge of rules? Shall we all report to you now?

Give me one good design, artistic, religious, or engineering reason for storing whatever you mean by "rubble" inside a huge stone structure. With the storage space engineered into the architecture.

Don't be an idiot.

Crash55
11/25/2020 04:01:01 pm

Kent, I don't have to worry about being an idiot as you are doing a fine job of it for all of us.

Go read up on the spaces they found. Here is a National Geographic article on it: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/11/great-pyramid-giza-void-discovered-khufu-archaeology-science/

One theory is that the "void" is the remains of the ramp used to build it and they backfilled it with loose rubble as they closed it up. Another they mention is layered stone / empty space such as a above the king's chamber.

The scanning method they used is not precise it is measuring changes in density. Thus loose fill or many empty spaces between supports would show up as "empty space." That doesn't mean it is truly empty, just a much much lower density than the surrounding rock. "Empty" and "void" are terms that are easier for the average person to understand.

As for other designs pretty much any walled city used rubble in the walls. You would build two thin walls, fill the space between with rubble and then cap the space with stone. So yes there are many many large stone structures that use rubble fill.

The engineering reason is that the center of the wall doesn't support much load but you want the thickness for defensive reasons. In the pyramid I could see a rubble fill in many places because the load is born by the outside not the center - similar principles to arches. For tall structures (say aqueducts and stone bridges) you want width for stability / bending stiffness but most of the load is born by the outer skin so a rubble fill accomplishes that. Same principle as i-beams / cored wing structures.

I mentioned air because I didn't want you whining that a void requires a vacuum. Most voids on earth are filled with air. Evidently I need to use very small precise words to get you to grasp the concepts at hand.

So take your own advice and don't be an idiot. If you had half a modicum of intelligence it would be a good idea to leave the science and engineering answers to me, since that is my background. However I know your sole goal is to be a troll so go have fun

Jim
11/25/2020 04:21:20 pm

"Don't be an idiot."

They have already found unexplained "voids" filled with sand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notz0z53wtM

oops

Crash55
11/25/2020 05:32:15 pm

Jim, sand is a definite possibility. It would present as a lower density than the stone around it. I would not be at all surprised to find rubble with sand filling in the gaps. That would be the fastest way to fill large spaces or to backfill the ramp

Kent
11/25/2020 08:10:59 pm

The idiocy never stops.

It has been argued that the term "void" is meaningless. Okay, great, we'll ignore all the voids in the United States, the graves, the septic tanks.

"In the pyramid I could see a rubble fill in many places because the load is born by the outside not the center - similar principles to arches."

That's a hard NO. That's not how pyramids work. The outside of a pyramid does not "bear the load".

"leave the science and engineering answers to me" It would be interesting to know your license number (who am I kidding) because you are demonstrably an idiot and incompetent, thinking a pile of rocks is an arch.

Don't be an idiot.

Oops.

Zahi obvious
11/25/2020 11:13:25 pm

"What makes air so special."

Priceless!

Crash55
11/26/2020 03:40:42 pm

Kent you are truly an idiot and a troll. I will put my CV up against yours any day of the week. You pathetic moronic troll.

Yes a pyramid is not an arch but any enclosed space will basically function as one. I was trying keep things simple. The load is not evenly distributed in the pyramid, especially with an irregular interior. If you do an analysis you will see that the load is more to the outside than the inside. The vertical load transitions to a shear load which wants to push the sides out. This is why when they made the side angles too steep on earlier ones the pyramid started to collapse. Only in a column is the load purely vertical. That is why buckling is the main concern in a column.

I also did not say that the term void is meaningless. I said they were using it to make the concept understandable to the average person. Obviously you are well below their targeted audience.

I would again urge you to stop being a moronic pathetic troll but I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.

I am done here. Feel free to make nitpicks comments about this post as well

Jim
11/26/2020 04:08:16 pm

Crash, I take your point, why quarry and drag 2.5 ton blocks of stone when you can simply fill areas not necessary to to structural integrity with cobble and/or sand which would still give lateral support to structurally necessary parts of the pyramid.

That said, the sand found was 99% quartz so imported or worked somehow. More mystery, why a special sand if only for fill ?
The more we learn the less we know.
Just spitballing here, but maybe they had a drainage system to protect the main chambers from water seepage.

Crash55
11/26/2020 06:02:30 pm

And before someone points to a web page showing even load distribution under a pyramid that is sophomore level statics. That requires lots of assumptions including everything being perfectly uniform and joined together. In small structures those assumptions are fine. Not when you get to ones the size of the pyramids though.

Crash55
11/26/2020 08:28:55 pm

Jim, I haven’t read up on where they found the sand nor it’s makeup. Silica is the most common component of inland sand.

My question would be how does it differ from the local sand? Is the special sand only in certain locations? Are those locations of significance?

Kent
11/26/2020 09:09:58 pm

Remember that your argument began with "you watched a TV show."

"Yes a pyramid is not an arch but any enclosed space will basically function as one."

So the planet Earth is an arch.
My fist is an arch.
A can of soup is an arch.
The Kensington Runestone is an arch.

Comparing imaginary CVs in a universe where every object is an arch is all well and good, but I will stipulate that your donger is bigger than mine. So effing what?

What's your license number again? I didn't quite catch that.

Crash55
11/27/2020 12:40:42 pm

Kent, I know I said I wouldn't respond again but your stupidity is beyond belief either that or you are close to being a professional troll.

My original comment was related to what the show said. You are the one that then started making comments that required going outside of that.

You know as well as I do that in context "any enclosed space" is referring to an enclosed space in a structure like the pyramid. So stop being a pedantic asshole. Jim was able to grasp what I was trying to say.

I don't have a license as it isn't required for my job. Licenses are required for primarily for contract work and civil engineering. As a researcher with an engineering degree a license is not required. In the research / academic world the CV is what matters.

You have reminded me though why I rarely post on this blog now - trolls like you that are not concerned with positing possible theories or explanations but only nitpicking details that are secondary to the central comment.

My basic comment / thesis stands - the "voids" are not necessarily empty. The method used means that they just have a much lower density than the surrounding area. Based on stone building construction techniques it is possible that the areas are not empty but filled with rubble / sand as that was a common way to fill interior spaces since they are not critical load bearing areas.

Jim
11/27/2020 12:51:36 pm

Crash: I can't claim to be very knowledgeable about this, perhaps watch the video I linked to.

The fellow sounds knowledgeable, but I can't vouch for his accuracy in this, the Golden Age of Bullshit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notz0z53wtM

"Holes were drilled in the horizontal passageway and they discovered a cavity filled with sand, a very peculiar and still unexplained find as the sand was brought from hundreds of miles away, being 99% quartz.

In this video I highlight a number of sand-filled cavities inside the Great Pyramid, but why are they there? I also take a look at the hill (or inselberg) under the pyramid and claim that maybe it is far larger than we are led to believe. Watch the video now to learn more."

Man who says nee
11/27/2020 02:24:41 pm

Kent thinks that the Kensington Stone is an enclosed space and thus is an arch. His logic reminds me of the witch trial in Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail.

Kent
11/27/2020 05:42:53 pm

"Jim was able to grasp what I was trying to say." As bar setting goes that's borderline child abuse but let's take a step back and realize I'm trying to talk to a (longwinded) "academic and researcher" who thinks a pile of rocks and an arch are the same thing. Can we stay focused on the fact that you don't understand the difference between a pyramid (pile of rocks) and an arch?

Crash55
11/28/2020 10:16:18 am

Kent, again you show vastly subpar reading comprehension skills. I said I was a researcher. I never said I was an academic. I said that CVs are used to judge skill level in the research / academic world.

If Jim is a low bar for getting a concept across then you must think that he is highly intelligent. After all a low bar for getting someone to understand a topic is an intelligent person not a stupid one. If you were trying to say that Jim is not very bright and thus he was a low bar then what does that say about you? In either case it still implies that Jim grasped something that you can not.

I understand the difference between an arch and a pyramid. I was trying to convey that in most large structures the out layers are more responsible for carrying the load than the interior ones. The King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid could be seen as a predecessor to the arch as it intentionally uses multiple layers (top one angled) to move the load from the center to the walls. However I obviously failed in my intent as you didn't get the point. That is on me as I targeted the wrong audience level

Going forward I shall have to remember to use small words and ensure that even a first grader could grasp the point I am trying to make. You think I am long winded now, just wait for that. However it appears to be the only way to get my points across without providing you with fodder.

Crash55
11/28/2020 10:38:42 am

Jim.,

I watched the video and the sand composition issue I find to be rather misleading. I may have missed it but it sounded like the sand was sampled in only one location. The blocks themselves were quarried from far away and cutting the drilling them would create sand so it could be just an anomaly. You would to need to sample from the center of the sand deposit and take multiple samples to ensure that the test was representative.

I could also see the Egyptians screening the sand to get it an even consistency. Also getting it from far away is not out of the question for religious reasons. Remember this is a tomb for the Pharaoh and his afterlife depended upon it.

As for the use of sand, that goes to my original point on filling interior spaces. Sand and rubble are easier than cut blocks. Especially for the lower levels. I watched a show on building Notre Dame and guess what the thick sections of the walls are filled with - rough cut blocks (i.e. rubble) and sand. The foundation it is built on is rough cut stones and sand. So finding find when you drill a hole into an interior space is not a surprise

Pink House
11/28/2020 09:09:10 pm

Crash55,

With all due respect I disagree with your classification of Kent AKA American Negro as a troll. The goal of a troll is to provoke others into emotional responses that make them look foolish and to derail discussions.

Kent is only being successful at making himself look foolish and your responses provide some intelligent insights into the issue of pyarmid construction and alleged mysterious voids which is keeping on topic.

Kent is not a troll he is just someone who isn't nearly as smart or informed as he thinks that he is but he seriously believes that he is demonstrating intellectual superiority when he is just doing the opposite.

Jim
11/29/2020 12:04:16 am

Ya, my point was that there was indeed "voids" found that were not technically voids, as you surmised.
I think we can agree (at least most of us) that for all intents and purposes a "void" in this context is a space filled with something of lesser density than solid stone or (for the nitpickers among us) solid stone blocks.

Crash55
11/29/2020 10:36:45 am

Pink House, I never said he was a good troll. Though he does often elicit an emotional response from me

Crash55
11/24/2020 10:03:42 am

Has anyone ever found any actual ancient Egyptian texts with similar stories? I watch a lot of shows that cover Egyptian archaeology and have never seen anything similar.

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Rock Knocker
11/24/2020 10:29:10 am

What does it say...?

Media: after focusing on Trump, #MeToo, the Royal wedding, COVID-19 and the Area 51 invasion, there simply wasn’t room for a story about a void in an old pile of rocks.

Egyptian authorities: with the new cemetery found at Luxor, new discoveries at Saqqara, the Ka of Ramses, a new Roman city, new discoveries at the Valley of the Kings and increased looting, the resources of the highly-stretched Ministry have challenged. Plus in recent times there has been a great reluctance to approve invasive study at the Great Pyramid, this in spite of the numerous theories (crackpot or not) about hidden chambers and passageways within. Too, during my numerous trips to Egypt I noticed that many things move at a much slower pace than in many Western cultures. Remember, Time fears the Pyramids.....

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Hanslune
11/24/2020 04:44:29 pm

Yes it can take quite some time to arrange for a western donor to pay for the research/drilling and also how to select who will benefit from it. Additionally, they have to agree whose nephews will be hired to assist the investigation and most importantly who will be blamed if something goes wrong.

So, after all that they have to determine which participants will share credit with the Egyptians, who will write the paper and who will approve it and arrange for media coverage and make the announcements.

This has been slowed down by Covid too.

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E.P. Grondine
11/25/2020 08:45:40 pm

Hi Hanslune-

It work much the same way here in Ohio, so not much point in picking on the poor Egyptians. Jason's book did not have an image of the precursor of the Grave Creek stone, for example.

Hanslune
11/26/2020 05:24:02 pm

Pick on them? LOL

I was being charitable. I worked for a variety of Arab Governments on an off from 1983 to 2011. In general, they were incompetent, lazy, grasping, petty and only interested in promoting themselves (the individual(s) I was working with) and their families.

The good side is that the rich countries threw money at a problem and the poor ones threw western donor's money.

There were few exceptions but those guys kept me in the game - they actually cared about archaeology, education or their army and tried to make them better.

Kent
11/26/2020 06:02:23 pm

"Jason's book did not have an image of the precursor of the Grave Creek stone, for example."

Nor do you, yet you persist in telling Jason how to re-write his books that publishers actually like. You are a bent piece of metal without the bend or the metal.

Martin Stower
11/24/2020 05:17:36 pm

Creighton first gave the quote an outing here:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/312992-hidden-chamber-found-in-great-pyramid#comment-6268072#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

—but just a couple of days later it had become his one example of what the “ancient texts” tell us about the “void”:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1189963#:~:text=The%20king%20then%20directed,the%20bodies%20of%20his%20ancestors.

This is of course the standard “ancient mysteries” equivocation, in which everything from the Pleistocene to the MIddle Ages is indifferently “ancient”.

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The Rooster
11/25/2020 02:27:13 pm

Totally off topic.

But if you will allow the question?

I know we have some Geologists here, and Archeologists.

Is this thing actually useful?

https://www.estwing.com/collections/geological/products/gad-pry-bar

I'm just curious.

I can think of many uses for it. But only wondering if this thing is honestly useful in the field for your work.

Thanks!

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Kent
11/25/2020 04:12:09 pm

You're asking if a bent piece of metal is useful. I've never known such to be the case. That's just insane. How could it possibly be useful? If a Coca-Cola bottle falls out of the sky you could perhaps use it to smash the Coca-Cola bottle. Don't tell me it's not useful!

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The Rooster
11/25/2020 07:02:36 pm

That's a really good question! About the bottle.

I suppose that's what we'll all be watching, then, over the long weekend "The Gods Must Be Crazy". Good call!

No, no. It's just an honest question. I have one sitting on my desk right now. Have reviewed Estwing's "geological tool" catalogue, and am only wondering. I'm sort of a nut for hardware. Why this over, say? A simple rock hammer?

Was honestly a real Q.

Thanks for remaining feral. It's why I love you.

Happy TG!

❤️

The Rooster
11/25/2020 07:17:04 pm

"If a Coca-Cola bottle falls out of the sky you could perhaps use it to smash the Coca-Cola bottle."

Just OMG!

I love that so much. I know your mind, and I know what you would do: catch the coke bottle with your left hand, analyze its constituency, and origin, and then build a coke bottle-launcher to shoot back. Don't try and trick me!

Just trying to keep up with the "phunny".

Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.

There was an Omen today: went to the tobacconist? He was wearing a James Dean t-shirt. No shit.

❤️

The Rooster
11/26/2020 03:12:37 am

Also?

I did mention once before my experience in the OR.

Don't doubt my ability to estimate the capability of tools like this.

I'm only interested in how the professionals, that this thing was supposedly designed for, estimate it's value.

I'd choose a rock hammer.

😅❤️

E.P. Grondine
11/25/2020 08:40:47 pm

Hi Jason-

Glad to see your pyramid book is coming out from a university press. But I am more interested in Brando, Dean, Mineo, and Vampirilla.

The mysterious pyramids! Perhaps someday the University of Chicago will uncover something in the workers' quarters at the Pyramids. I will not be surprised if it turns out to be asteroid or comet related. as impacts have generally explained a number of proto historical mysteries.

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Kent
11/26/2020 04:19:24 pm

One of your neighbors could fail to clean up after their dog and you would think it's asteroid or comet related. Sad.

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T. Franke link
11/26/2020 04:41:08 pm

I have seen that Jason's Pyramids book is fully announced on the editor's page, complete with PDF flyer and everything ..... but announced only for August 2021.

https://iupress.org/9781684351480/the-legends-of-the-pyramids/

I politely mailed to the editor and asked for the reasons. Let's see what they will answer.

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Kent
11/27/2020 12:50:18 am

I'm guessing the answer will be "We don't work for you, piss off."

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Martin Stower
11/26/2020 07:05:37 pm

Is Void the HOAX II we were promised?

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,628912,628937#msg-628937

M.

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Nerd11135
11/27/2020 07:36:20 am

Weird, and somewhat depressing, to see Mr. Colavito's site still being used as troll gladiator training.

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Hanslune
11/27/2020 12:55:53 pm

Yep that is why I rarely post here. I greatly enjoy JC's blogs, books and comments but his decision to let the heirs of the troll 'American Negro' and his ilk destroy the comments section on a regular basis seems both odd and off putting.

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Winnie texas prom queen
11/27/2020 04:12:17 pm

But fewer trolls and with some semblance of a moderating filter to keep the idiocy to a reasonably low level compared to the past.

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The Rooster
11/28/2020 01:07:14 am

Oh? Uh, uh.

I have "stupid" enough to feed everyone for weeks.

"Stupid".

Ask HANSLUNE?

He knows. I'm the stupidest ever. Totally armed with "dumb bombs".

Oh yeah.

Now.

I want my fucking James Dean.

🖕🇺🇸

The Rooster
11/27/2020 05:28:29 pm

Holy Christ, what a tedious post!

Kids?!

Keep rowing!

The voids are where they hauled the giant rocks through.

End of story.

Any Questions?

Jesus.

Can we get on to James Dean and weirdness now?

Gawd!

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Crash55
11/28/2020 07:05:54 pm

The voids being the remnants of an internal ramp system is one of the possibilities identified by the team. I mentioned that in one of my posts

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The Rooster
11/29/2020 02:03:39 am

Truly lovely to be in agreement with you.

You? I like you. You're Core.

Yeah, so, the whole construction? It's just what it is.

Who wouldn't want to build that shit. And then all the dependent micro-economies that would be stood up to support the effort? Beer? Bread? Temples & Life.

And they all had worms, but that's alright.

+!!? The cosmetics? It just gets crazier & crazier!

Total nuts. No Aliens.

We rule!

Martin Stower
11/27/2020 05:54:13 pm

This is a cogent comment on the imaginary basis of Creighton’s assertions:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/333753-great-pyramid-hidden-chamber-set-for-re-scan/page/8#comment-6929336#:~:text=Your%20projection%20of%20this%20situation,no%20sign%20of%20it.

Creighton treats “oral tradition” as a magic formula which frees him from the constraints of evidence and allows him to impute to the ancient Egyptians whatever statements he likes.

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Jim
11/27/2020 11:27:06 pm

He reminds me of the black knight in Monty Python.

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The Rooster
11/28/2020 05:41:36 pm

Can't believe this ATS craziness has landed here.

So sick of this shit.

Do you all understand what the the whole point of building a Pyramid is?

It's to build a pyramid.

Same shit with all the other Megalithic shite.

The point is the point.

It means income, food, and life.

It's what we do.

Go to hell doubters, and study Ekistics.

Piss off. HANS.

🖕🇺🇸

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Crash55
11/28/2020 07:12:18 pm

You are viewing an ancient society through a lens of today’s society. The ancient Egyptians viewed things differently.

Yes this was part jobs project for the off season. However it was also a religious endeavor. I have read some articles stating that they almost depleted the treasury

At the end of the day it is just a big tomb. Egypt was prosperous at that time so the Pharaoh could employ a large segment of his population when they weren’t in the fields.

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The Roosters
11/28/2020 08:25:22 pm

I wouldn't, if I were you, necessarily judge my historical "speculum".

But yeah: you just stuck it like a gymnast.

Happy Holidays!

❤️

Charles Verrastro link
11/29/2020 03:43:30 pm

Whenever the subject of the pyramids comes up I cannot but harken back to my first reading of Sir Thomas Browne's famous judgements "But to subsist in bones, and be but Pyramidally extant, is a fallacy in duration" and "Man is a noble animal, splendid in ashes, and pompous in the grave."
What a monumentally (no pun intended) wasteful use of resources for a totally negative result. No pharaoh was ever usefully preserved in those supposedly impenetrable recesses. No wonder they opted for the Valley of the Kings approach. Although it is rarely mentioned even King Tut's tomb was ransacked almost immediately after it was sealed.
It is nicely hopeful to speculate spectacularly illuminating texts may be preserved in some chamber (although "void" could just as easily be a side gallery or sand and rubble filled pocket). But we may as well hold out hope the pyramids were indeed Joseph's granaries and we find a silo of ancient grain. It could come in handy when the world is starving from environmental degradation.

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Hanslune
11/29/2020 05:17:44 pm

Yes a colossus waste of effort and resources - nothing is impossible or wasteful if ordered done by a person who thinks he is a god.

That said one Pharaoh's tomb was not looted that was Psuseness I, 1047-1001 BCE but it was damaged by nature.

His water logged tomb was found in 1940 and due to the war pretty much ignored.

Interestingly his outer and inner sarcophagi had been looted from the Valley of the Kings and the outer container had been originally made for Pharaoh Merenptah of the 19th Dynasty.

His inner coffin was made not of gold but silver.

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Charles Verrastro link
11/30/2020 12:33:12 pm

Thanks, but I was referring to the pyramids specifically. I have nothing against the more modest mastabas and other tombs. Even today every modern cemetery has over elaborate and expensive funerary monuments. But the pyramids, and many temples like Baalbek, are just off the charts in terms of manpower that could have been spent on decent housing for the general populace and lowered taxes. The idea the pyramids were a work project ignores there could have been improvements made on so many other useful fronts with less effort.
But then, I still can't get my head around the ancients using gigantic nearly intractable megalithic blocks when more manageable ones were just as readily available. Or why so many invaders razed gigantic structures or even entire cities to the ground and then just rebuilt them. Wasn't life itself hard enough they had to make extra work to keep from getting bored?

Kent
11/30/2020 05:33:28 pm

It could be argued that a society that thought this sort of thing was a good idea had to be borderline retarded. Certainly not people I would trust with children, fire, or sharp objects. To sum up:

"Good with gold and drawing, bread and beer, bad with city planning." And at the end of the day, really anything. Egypt sucked.

Crash55
11/29/2020 08:08:41 pm

I would argue that it was not a totally negative result. It kept the people busy during the off season (latest theory is they built the pyramid while not farming). One of the goals was to be remembered and we still talk about the pharaohs that built them so they were successful in that way. I am also betting the ancient Egyptians were quite proud of their monuments so that would be a positive as well.

If you look at the border defenses built both by Rome and China they were more make work projects than anything else. They kept the soldiers / populace busy but didn’t really work well as a defense.

As for Tut’s tomb, almost every article or video I have seen on the discovery mentions that tomb robbers had broken in shortly after it was sealed. However they only entered the outer room. They didn’t make it into the inner chamber where Carter found Tut.

I doubt we will find anything in the “voids.” However they could help tell us about how the pyramid was made.

Reply
Martin Stower
12/6/2020 06:29:12 pm

On Creighton’s “recovery vault” tomfoolery, consider this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120916004452/http://www.scottcreighton.co.uk/PDF-Files/The%20Giza%20Genesis%20Plan.pdf

Conspicuous by its absence is the word “Coptic”—and no mention of “ancient texts” other than (once) the Pyramid Texts.

We find at the bottom that this is an extract from The Giza Prophecy (2012). We find in that work one instance of the word “Coptic” and no mention at all of the medieval Arabic histories.

Far from his having taken his “cue” from what the texts “tell us”, this was a preconceived theory which he brought to the texts.

Reply
Jim
12/6/2020 10:18:18 pm

I couldn't get past his alignment drawing where he draws the (G2) pyramid in the wrong position so as to fit his alignment and then blames the ancient Egyptian for building it in the wrong position.

Reply
Martin Stower
12/7/2020 08:02:32 pm

Faulting reality for not being what he says it should be is characteristic of his “method”.

The procedure is facile, as what he says it should be is of course entirely arbitrary.

M.

Martin Stower
12/6/2020 07:32:53 pm

“I took my cue from . . .”

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22scott+creighton%22+%22took+my+cue+from+what+the+ancient+*+tell+us%22&filter=0

Let’s break that down into its variants, in chronological order.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22scott+creighton%22+%22took+my+cue+from+what+the+ancient+egyptians+themselves+actually+tell+us%22&filter=0

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22scott+creighton%22+%22took+my+cue+from+what+the+ancient+egyptians+themselves+tell+us%22&filter=0

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22scott+creighton%22+%22took+my+cue+from+what+the+ancient+egyptians+themselves+tell+us%22&filter=0

Reply
Martin Stower
12/6/2020 09:52:00 pm

Last of those should be this:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22scott+creighton%22+%22took+my+cue+from+what+the+ancient+egyptian+texts+tell+us%22&filter=0

Reply
Martin Stower
12/7/2020 11:34:46 am

A fuller statement:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/forum/read.php?6,628912,629056#msg-629056

Reply
Martin Stower
6/20/2021 01:45:43 pm

URL for the fuller statement is now this:

http://www.maatforum.com/forum/read.php?6,628912,629056#msg-629056

Reply
Martin Stower
6/7/2021 05:51:04 pm

This appears to be new (but I am not sure how new):

https://www.innertraditions.com/books/the-great-pyramid-void-enigma#table-of-contents

We see that the Vyse material (in what was to have been HOAX II) has been consigned to two appendices: “APPENDIX 1 Portrait of a Fraud: Analysis of Colonel Vyse’s Activities” and “APPENDIX 2 Mounting Evidence: New Confirmation of Vyse’s Deceit”.

Reply
Charles link
6/10/2021 04:58:02 pm

Another interesting study of these Prisca Theologica traditions (besides Jason's book of course) is 'The Lost Pillars of Enoch' by Tobias Churton. He covers much the same ground of dubious Arabic scholarship and confusion of periods and personalities.
I've been sharing research with the author for some time, and teased him he missed the contribution of Wesh forger Iolo Morgannwg who added his own false myth that I have seen quoted by even serious Celtic scholars as ancient testimony.
The Pyramid inscription is redundant at this point as it is certain Cheops was the titular builder.

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