Remember that academic conspiracy that Scott Wolter claimed was working against him? Well, according to a new interview with Wolter it extends to the very heart of Wikipedia, which he and fellow alternative historian Richard Thornton say has been systematically edited to discredit him. Before we begin let me state up front that I have nothing to do with any of the alleged editing. Wolter told Richard Thornton, writing as a columnist on Examiner.com, that he has demanded that Wikipedia remove its biography of him because too many people had inserted false or misleading claims into the biography. He claims that Wikipedia failed to act upon his request, and he claims that an editor named Doug Weller edited or removed articles Wolter authored for Wikipedia about controversial artifacts. As of this writing, there is no Scott Wolter Wikipedia page, and I can’t recall ever having seen one. America Unearthed does have a Wikipedia page, and it fairly describes the show as a “pseudo-documentary,” which Wolter would understandably disagree with. The America Unearthed Wikipedia page, I learned, also links to my blog as the only example of “one blog site” that was “critical” of the show and its host. It links back to my piece on Scott Wolter’s non-existent honorary master’s degree, which explains why so many angry people have been arriving on that blog page to yell at me for “attacking” Wolter. I’d like to think I’m not the only person in the world to have written anything critical of the show. Doug Weller is a skeptic and rationalist who is an administrator for Wikipedia. Creationists, ancient astronaut speculators, and alternative historians have criticized him for editing Wikipedia entries to remove false or misleading claims. (See, for example, this discussion on the white supremacist Metapedia.) Even though these speculators have no degrees in the relevant fields, they feel Weller should not be allowed to edit material about their claims because he does not have a degree in archaeology or history. Thornton and several conservative websites accuse Weller of falsely claiming to have been an archaeologist, but I am not aware of this claim. It seems to be due to confusion about the fact that Weller runs an archaeology website. Thornton also accused the Cherokee of removing references to the Creek in Georgia in order to undermine Wolter’s (and, though he doesn’t say it, his) claim that the Maya gave rise to the Creek. The article claims this was part of a concerted effort on the part of the Cherokee to attack Scott Wolter and delegitimize America Unearthed. (Keep in mind that Examiner is not a real newspaper but a “citizen journalism” site with fewer quality control measures than Wikipedia.) The extensive changes to Wikipedia were designed to give the impression that the Cherokees had always lived in Georgia. This was done because the Eastern Band of Cherokees planned to participate in an effort to discredit the premier [sic] of America Unearthed, “Finding the Mayas in Georgia.” [sic] It is not known who edited these articles. It could have been US Forest Service personnel, archaeologists, who are allied with the Cherokees, or members of one of several New Age cults that are obsessed with all things Cherokee. Wolter has worked with the Cherokee in the past, and he examined the Bat Creek Stone at their request. He presented findings to the Cherokee and has continued to speak at Cherokee events. And lest you think this stuff doesn’t matter, remember: Glenn Beck advocated the Bat Creek Stone in 2010 as absolute proof of the truth of the Book of Mormon, based in part on Scott Wolter’s then-recent “analysis” of the geology of its alleged Hebrew inscription. Thornton also failed to disclose to his Examiner readers that he is the originator of the idea that the Maya were responsible for the Track Rock site in Georgia. Instead, he pretends to be a mere “columnist” reporting disinterestedly on the “scandal” at Wikipedia. Thornton is, of course, revealing volumes about his conspiratorial thinking. This is not the first time Thornton has accused the Cherokee and the Forest Service of a conspiracy against both Wolter, again failing to disclose his own role. In December, he wrote another lengthy Examiner column claiming that the Forest Service cut down trees to block Wolter from accessing the site and created their own online video to refute him. He linked the video to the KKK because the KKK linked back to it! He failed to note that the Forest Service was responding to Thornton’s own “theories,” which he published, again in Examiner, the previous year. “There has never been an explanation from this federal agency as to why it is so interested in proving that the Mayas did not come to North America,” Thornton wrote in December. It’s not a negative, Thornton: They’re trying to disseminate the known facts, as determined by actual archaeologists rather than angry conspiracy theorists, in order to inform the public of the truth. Thornton ironically and risibly accused Wikipedia of failure to disclose its conflicts of interest and bias against alternative views. He specifically accused Weller of monopolizing control over how issues affecting alternative history are presented and for not being an archaeologist. But I’m still not understanding: It’s OK for Richard Thornton and Scott Wolter, dilettante speculators both, to “rewrite” history based on coincidences, fabrications, and their own feelings, but the sacred job of editing Wikipedia must be reserved for credentialed professors? Given that actual archaeologists disagree with Thornton and Wolter (which is what the Forest Service wanted people to know), this seems like a ploy to avoid editing since few professionals have the time to review every Wikipedia page everyday for alternative history nonsense. It is also probably the reason that Thornton airs his ideas on the unedited Examiner rather than anywhere where they might be exposed to critical thought. UPDATE
After some additional research, I learned some relevant information:
73 Comments
William Dashiell Hammett
3/27/2013 04:30:16 am
“Wikipedia is the first place I go when I'm looking for knowledge... or when I want to create some.”
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The Other J.
3/27/2013 08:08:19 am
A while back I caught some students plagiarizing from Wikipedia. So I did my own two experiments: I seeded some pages of topics we were discussing with interesting misinformation, and three of them used that in their papers.
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William Dashiell Hammett
3/27/2013 09:00:29 am
I like your experiments. I like wikipedia as a "good place to start" when doing research. I think a lot of wiki editors are really sincere in their efforts, myself included. But as anyone can make a change, you do need to dig deeper.
Judyann Joyner
4/7/2019 05:41:09 pm
Completely agree. Wikipedia merely a STARTING place of researching anything. No serious researcher or academic hangs their hat on Wikipedia
Brandi Benefield
6/5/2021 09:49:55 am
Where is Scott Wolter and his wife now?!? I have been watching some of his work on The History Channel. He's right!!! The history we've been taught was wrong!!! Where is Mel Gibson? He was right too!!!
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B L
3/27/2013 04:43:45 am
I remember running across the Scott Wolter entry on Wikipedia in the recent past. It WAS pretty unflattering.....not undeserved, just unflattering.
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3/27/2013 04:46:11 am
I wonder when it disappeared. When the show started in December, I remember trying to look up info on Wolter, about whom at the time I knew very little, and it wasn't there then. Mysterious!
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The Other J.
3/27/2013 08:11:12 am
Wolter demanded that his Wikipedia page be taken down early into the run of America Unearthed. I don't recall if I found that Wikipedia discussion through here first, or if I found this site after stumbling across Wolter's take-down request, but there was a discussion and Wolter exclaimed he was tired of it all and just wanted the page gone. The request was honored.
B L
3/27/2013 09:05:30 am
I would take The Other J. at his word. I happened across it sometime last summer or fall while I was trying to find some info on the Kensington Runestone. It was a pretty strange entry. It was very short, and was written in the third person. It was like Wolter's worst enemy was forced to write something good about him. It wasn't derogatory or defamatory, but you could tell the writer was holding his nose during the process.
sean
2/13/2015 03:20:46 pm
if you cant see thare is a clear plot to keep secrets about the land we live on you are not smart at all as a person that hikes I have seen things to question the so called real scholars that seem to know nothing as it seems thay don't even go look at the things out thare but discredit them from a far and I for one don't buy that as what a real scholar should do
Americanegro
9/2/2016 03:23:24 pm
Watching Wolter on America Unearthed, I found him delusional and not a good scientist. Reading his website, particularly his responses to comments, I find him actively disagreeable and aggressively ignorant. To the extent that I'd be okay with it if died in an auto crash.
Jon B
3/27/2013 04:55:41 am
When AU first aired, I tried finding a Wikipedia page for Wolter. There was still a Google result at that time, but it just linked to a message about the page being removed. The Talk section mentioned Wolter asking that the page be removed. That certainly seems odd for someone with a TV show.
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3/27/2013 05:05:58 am
That's what I found, too. It seems it was a preemptive strike to prevent bad press against the TV show. In that case, the only one in a conspiracy would be Wolter and/or H2 in trying to scrub the internet of uncomfortable facts.
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Rlewis
3/27/2013 12:56:43 pm
this link is still active...
The Other J.
3/27/2013 08:12:29 am
I could have read this comment before I went ahead and posted basically the same damn thing... show's what happens when you spout off with incomplete information.
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CFC
3/27/2013 05:18:08 am
Only people who lack the confidence in themselves and their facts behave this way. Their only defense mechanism is to attack those who challenge them or provide alternate explanations.
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kirstein
7/6/2013 12:54:48 am
Ohh lalahhhh bingo!!!!
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Carlos
2/6/2015 08:53:59 am
I realize this is old. Blame Netflix.....
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Cathleen Anderson
3/27/2013 05:43:37 am
You are not the only one being critical.
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The Other J.
3/27/2013 08:16:16 am
Do you mean examples of faked evidence? Any particulars?
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Cathleen Anderson
3/27/2013 09:25:35 am
No, examples of other people writing critically about the show.
Phillip
3/27/2013 07:08:11 am
If I was pretending to be the Indiana Jones of America, I would want my findings spread all across the pages of Wikipedia and every else for that matter, unless of course my findings were false and damaged further by "actual" evidence.....oh I get it now. No web presence, no criticism. Brilliant!
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3/27/2013 12:07:48 pm
I have decided to return from a short, self-imposed exile. There is yet hope here.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/27/2013 02:56:01 pm
Let me clarify this, "Mandans, anyone? Jason? What about the figurative use of "Blackfoot" to not describe human skin color?"
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Normandie Kent
7/7/2020 12:11:18 pm
The ‘Black’ and ‘White’ Mandan, literally have nothing to do with skin color, this is what European American and African Americans need get thru their heads, because there were no ‘black or white’ people in the Americas! Their were indigenous Americans of various shades! Native Americans do not focus on shallow concepts of black and white, and they constantly painted their bodies white white, black, red, and yellow! This is the case thru out the Americas, and you find painted murals of the ancestors in different colored pigments in their art, Besides this, the Native American race lived in different ecological zones above and below the equator, so they had light, medium and dark pigmented skin to start with. Native Americans also have ancestral and derived light skin mutations, so it’s possible that that is the reason for their different skin tones! DNA studies on ancient and modern indigenous Americans proved they have no close genetic relation to ancient or modern Europeans or Africans. Wishful thinking and jealousy doesn’t cut it!! Non-Native Americans need to stop inserting themselves into Americas past. Native people were the only people in both continents of the America’s!!
Normandie Kent
7/7/2020 12:25:46 pm
If ‘Black’ is able to be used figuratively, then so can ‘White’!!! It can also be applied to painted bodies, which we know that indigenous people did!! Since when are Native Americans living through out ALL of the Americas any one skin tone, and why should White Americans neurotically care about Native American Skintones?! Why should the care so much about the Native American past when it’s not your history?! Shouldn’t you be looking at your own history in Europe?!
The Other J.
3/27/2013 06:31:23 pm
Admittedly I haven't been following the stone holes debate very closely here; when I first came across it on these posts, the discussion was already pretty long and in-depth, and seemed like something I didn't have enough info on to jump into in medias res.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 04:26:41 am
Well, I thought maybe there was hope here, The Other J., but you just dispelled that notion.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 06:59:52 am
Checking our Jason's Wiki bio, one can see that his "job" is to debunk what is referred to as alternative archaeology, and he has good credentials for doing this publicly, as a journalist or writer. This is a good niche to fill, and I see nothing wrong with this as a profession.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 07:06:46 am
Sorry..."red-head."
DMC
5/1/2013 03:53:47 pm
Here here! History is what someone wrote down! Doesn't always mean it is accurate! I'm sure when God flooded the earth there were many artifacts that were lost! The bible states that there is nothing new under the sun! Why is it such a stretch to believe there was another culture before the Indians?
The Other J.
3/29/2013 12:14:56 pm
Well like I said, I wasn't dipping into the stone hole conversation before, and just tried to get some base familiarity with before I said anything (from your one page and I did some other searching as well, including a cursory look at one scholarly article).
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Not Sure
9/21/2015 04:06:24 am
Yeah, because "I'm not an archaeologist, but some archaeology was part of my graduate work in Ireland." gives you enough to discredit any work by anyone because You had some study into archaeology. You sound just as stupid as wolter himself. Biggest problem with the interwebz, you finally meet all the village idiots who only think they know what they are talking about. Jackass
J.J.
3/28/2013 02:10:09 pm
Gunn and other J- there is a published article (1985) telling of making holes to blast on the Ohman farm. Landsverk also had a letter from Art Ohman telling of blasting rock on the farm. Now, how do you discern if this or that holed stone is old? We are doing scope work on the holes to see what type of weathering presents itself. The next question to take into consideration is water standing in the holes- does this hasten to any extent the weathered 'look'. Just to look at the holed stones and deem them ancient will not result in reliable data. We have stories for over 100 years- well and good- but it has not answered the question. My study area, not around Kensington, has garnered over 70 such stone holes. Will 71 answer it, will 75 answer it? It needs to be looked at from a more scientific attitude.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 03:52:00 pm
I agree with you, J.J. The stoneholes need to be looked at from a more scientific attitude than they are now. They have stories to tell, right? Exactly. The problem is that not enough people are taking these stoneholes seriously, seriously enough for further study. I'm glad to hear that someone is trying to age-test some of these triangulated stoneholes.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 03:59:49 pm
"Maybe I can move this idea forward with the State Archaeologist, but I doubt it since, like Jason, he must believe in no pre-17th century European activity in America, especially out in the middle of nowhere...sorry...out in the middle of nowhere for that time!"
B L
3/28/2013 04:58:45 pm
Hi J. J. I am also interested in the stone holes. I am aware of the 1985 article you mention. On its surface, this article would seem to make the mystery of the stone holes on the Ohman property an open and shut case. However, even that simple article has stirred up some controversy. Sometime after Art Ohman died a researched attempted to validate the claim made in the article. The researcher asked representatives at Ohman's nursing home if he had ever been interviewed during his stay there. The nursing home claimed that they were under strict orders to keep such people away from Ohman, and that family members didn't want Ohman's golden years to be tormented by Kensington Runestone fanatics. So, it is possible that the interview never happened, and that the claim was made up by the article's author.
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CFC
3/28/2013 06:12:49 pm
Who is the "researcher" that is casting doubt on the integrity of the journalist who authored the article you mention? This interview conducted with individuals at the nursing home... where is this researcher's interview published?
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B L
3/29/2013 01:06:38 am
CFC: You seem to have a lot of questions for someone so disinterested in this stone hole conversation. I'm not sure what Scott Wolter has to do with my comments. I'm certainly not a big fan of his. I am aware of at least one group in the field right now in the process of analyzing these holes. I eagerly await their results. I have no preconceived notion regarding these holes. As I have stated before, my personal experience keeps me from believing that ALL of these holes were intended for blasting.
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CFC
3/29/2013 02:01:16 am
I'm interested in facts and published reports not gossip, heresay and accusations. It's irresponsible to make the comments about the researcher's interview that question the journalist's story without providing documentation. If there is a reference you can provide to this interview, that would be appreciated.
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B L
3/29/2013 02:32:42 am
I wonder which is more irresponsible...asking questions to prompt further investigation and possible discovery, or lumping everyone you find disagreeable in with Scott Wolter?
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J.J
3/29/2013 03:36:23 am
CFC - I appreciate your thoughts. My comments as to our testing is to encourage people that some of us ARE out there starting to do what hopefully will be perceived as science to help with dating these stoneholes. If all people do is read the old stories, old negative material that put everything down- nothing is done to inspire or encourage people to expand their minds to the possiblities of such a procedure. It may even show some promise for other so called 'artifacts'. It is easy to read people who have the baby already thrown out with the dishwater.
Gunn Sinclair
3/29/2013 04:12:02 am
J.J., I don't think the Art Ohman reference was helpful...kind of sounded like old, negative material to me. Thanks for clearing that up for me, BL.
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J.J.
3/29/2013 04:36:37 am
Gunn- then you did get the point- all of these stories are just that- the person writing it's opinion or slant. This will not answer the questions concerning the validity of the holes themselves. CFC wants peer reviewed journal material stuck away in places the average person will not have access- no win?
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B L
3/29/2013 05:23:39 am
Gunn, J.J., and CFC:
CFC
3/29/2013 05:31:51 am
If you want to be taken seriously, I would suggest approaching this in a manner that supports the scientific method.
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CFC
3/29/2013 05:40:49 am
I don't think asking for you to produce the evidence where you claim a researcher conducted an interview as negative. It's asking you to back up the claim. Can you do that?
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Gunn Sinclair
3/29/2013 07:27:42 am
Well, actually, there is a lot known about these stoneholes. They are mysterious, but not a complete mystery.
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3/29/2013 07:31:59 am
As you have a website, Gunn, and an abiding interest in these stone holes, I think it would be appropriate at this point for you and those interested in continuing this discussion to move over to your website to discuss stone holes.
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Americanegro
12/16/2015 12:22:05 am
Criminal Justice is arguably the only major easier than sociology. It's not really a credential.
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Americanegro
9/2/2016 03:40:25 pm
"I admit that my training in Criminal justice has me looking at the preponderance of evidence..."
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Gunn Sinclair
3/29/2013 07:41:33 am
That last one stung a bit, didn't it?
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3/29/2013 07:45:53 am
I'm going to generously assume it didn't cross your mind that I'm half Italian and you were referecing that in terms of establishment thinking only.
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Gunn Sinclair
3/29/2013 08:09:38 am
The discussion was about Wiki, too, for which I had added in my two-bits with my own experience with Wiki, referencing both the Kensington Runestone and the now famous "Jason Calovito Stonehole" rock. I'm sorry the Maya and Georgia got in my way.
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Mangoe
3/29/2013 08:47:32 am
As one of the participants in the editing of these articles on Wikipedia, I would only like to add that for me the message is how any amateur with a fairly basic idea of how scholarship and archaeology are done can see the problems with these artifacts. It's striking, for example, how may of them involve isolated inscriptions in odd alphabets on stones of dubious provenance and lacking any kind of archaeological context. The comparison with L'Anse aux Meadows is instructive.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
4/30/2013 10:52:10 am
There is now a very brief "Wikipedia" article on "Scott Wolter" ...
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Junk Science Skeptic
5/1/2013 08:34:37 pm
Wolter's show seems a bit iffy, but it seems as though he only walks right up to the edge of asserting his points. He implies all day long, but assertions are few and far between.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
5/8/2013 04:56:43 pm
Ummmm ... I'm not aware that ANY of Scott Wolter's work is anything about "climate gate" ...
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Junk Science Skeptic
5/8/2013 05:41:13 pm
Really tangential to the Wolter discussion, but earlier comments cite "peer review" as if it still deserved the status of a "papal edict" that such review once held. Not that peer review ever deserved such status.
Will Ritson
5/5/2013 04:46:28 pm
"which Wolter would understandably disagree with" - have you asked him? Speculation....
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5/5/2013 11:30:14 pm
Beck mattered because he was advocating the authenticity of the Bat Creek Stone to an audience five times the size of America Unearthed's. The other figures you metnion are not relevant because they were not advocating alternative archaeology.
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steve
5/7/2013 01:07:33 am
Bwahahaha!!! I love the self-serving plug there, Jason. You and I both know you edited the AMERICA UNEARTHED page to add yourself. What a tool.
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5/7/2013 01:11:49 am
I have never touched the America Unearthed page, and you are welcome to view the page history on Wikipedia to confirm this fact. My edits to Wikipedia (few that they are) are tagged with my name in the page histories of the relevant pages, such as the page for the Orphic Argonautica.
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Cora Kelly
7/22/2013 06:39:33 am
I am the youngest daughter of Dr. A.R. Kelly. Recently my family has become aware of the writings of Richard Thorton. Anyone claiming experise in a topic needs to check every possible fact before printing it. I studied chemistry much to my father's distress. He wanted me to follow in his BIG footsteps. This at this point is just my unprofessional opinion.
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Veronica Brown
11/28/2013 03:08:23 am
I have ancestry in northeast Alabama and western Georgia, smack dab in the middle of what was once Creek territory. As far as I knew, my ancestry was 100% northern European, with one branch deemed 'Old Colonial'. I had my genome run, put the raw data thru Gedmatch, and was surprised to discover that I have a small percentage of Mesoamerican DNA, from an area around Peru, and also Mexico. My great grandmother's maiden name happens to be Thornton. At the time I had my DNA run, I had NO idea who Richard Thornton was. I don't believe we are related, nor, that the Mesoamerican genes come from my Thornton line. I still don't know what to think. Coincidence I guess? To make this even more intriguing, we settled on the edge of a northern Mississippi Mound Building site in the north, before we knew any of this. I now take an interest in the archeology digs that are done yearly. It just feels a lot more personal now. Maybe it is worth looking at the genetics of southern old colonials and the Creeks, before casting off any theories? Just sayin......
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Normandie Kent
6/20/2019 07:24:56 pm
Their are hundreds of legitimate Creek Indians that show continuity from their ancestors from first European contact down to the present. From both documentary records to DNA. If you just found som vague Meso-American ancestry that could of come from a displaced detribalized Mexican that could of come from any of the hundred Mexican tribes, then you you are delusional. If you have to take a DNA test to tell you you have distant NA ancestry, then you are not Creek Indian. You are a generic White American with a would be Mexican ancestor! Thornton is a wannabe Creek, and Thornton is a common southern name.
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Bruce David Wilner
6/27/2014 08:36:58 am
Scott Wolter is not much of a scientist. He jumps to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. He knows next to nothing about archaeology, history, or linguistics but flaps his lips, regularly and generously, about all of these. He rushes to identify the sketchiest of petroglyphs--whether square or circular--as hard evidence of such-and-such relationship. He identifies random linear scratches here and there as Old Irish ogham and, consequently, clear evidence that Irish sailors visited site X fifteen hundred years ago. His theories about the "hooked X" and such are beneath contempt. He should stick to his own expertise, to wit, geology, and I question his expertise at that, although I'm not a geologist. Generally speaking, he should be ashamed of himself.
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Cory
1/4/2015 04:03:03 am
Here is a link to the Wikipedia editors discussion about why they deleted Wolter's page. Basically, they deemed him not scientific or reliable enough to deem being on the site so they honored his delete request.
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Sue
1/10/2015 01:03:14 pm
The writer implies there was no Scott Wolter wiki page, when there absolutely was. The writer is a liar with an agenda. Scott Wolter is just looking at things from a different angle. Funny that he gets so much opposition, ey?
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Michael Grace
2/8/2015 05:45:01 am
Have been reading some of your material and thought I'd just pass on an ATTABOY to you.
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3/15/2015 02:44:47 am
I have read all these criticisms of Scott Wolter and Richard Thornton. I have yet to hear any of the critics give an explanation of where the formations came from. Fact the Maya just seemed to walk off the face of the earth around the year 1000. Where did they go? Who do you critics say built those formations if not the Maya. They carbondate them back to around the year 1000 and they have evidence of the Maya written all over them. I applaud Scott Wolter for doing this research. And furthermore, what is a degree? Its a piece of paper that entitles someone to sit at a desk and decree what is truth of the matter. Scott Wolter is a hands on and in my book, he has a degree from life experiences. I applaud him and wish the show still aired. I was born deep in the heart of those mountains, 3 miles from the closest neighbor, six miles to the tiny country store and 18 miles from town. I am part Cherokee on my mother's side and a small part Creek Indian on my father's side. I believe the Maya built that and other sites in Florida and Georgia. I believe the Maya did become known as the Creek Indians. Scott if you ever read this ......My hat is off to you. I am a 77 year old woman and I hold no degree other than a high school diploma, but.......I hold three quarters of a century of life experiences. Nobody can take that from me. Scott Wolter has the experiences of hands on, visiting, touching, researching. Who are you people to sit in you homes or offices and write criticisms about what He goes out and touches and researches. All of you get your information from reading books. He gets his from hands on research and nobody can refute that. ........My hat is off to you Scott, and to Richard Thornton also.
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Scott Kaiser
5/16/2016 04:19:38 pm
And the Clovis people were the first to make it to the continent, right?
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Normandie Kent
6/20/2019 07:34:20 pm
What are you even talking about?! Clovis was never a people. It was a lithlic tool kit that evolved in the Americas, by the ancestors of the Native Americans. Of course they were already in the Americas, if the Clovis Point evolved here. Since when do you have to be White to use a hammer. Maybe you should read up on the population genetics of the People of the Americas, because Clovis first has been debunked now going on 10 years.
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