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Skeptical Inquirer Seeks Out the Origins of the Holy Bloodline Myth in Belle Epoque Paris

2/21/2016

67 Comments

 
In the latest edition of the Skeptical Inquirer journalist Massimo Polidoro explores some of the fringe speculation about Mary Magdalene that grew up in the wake the Da Vinci Code hysteria of the early 2000s, mostly by asking whether a Templar church painting of the Madonna’s soul rising to the heaven in the form of a baby is really Mary Magdalene and Jesus’ child (it’s not). In so doing, Polidoro interviews Mario Arturo Iannaccone, an Italian historian who wrote a book a decade ago about Mary Magdalene called (in Italian) Mary Magdalene and the Shadow Goddess: The Sacred Feminine, the Spirituality of the Goddess, and the Contemporary Imagination. Iannaccone has some interesting things to say about Mary Magdalene, and his book reinforces much of what I and other who have looked at fringe claims about her have concluded.
​In his book, Iannaccone argues that the Mary Magdalene of fringe history—the hidden goddess, the wife of Christ, the Bloodline Mother, the vessel of the sacred feminine, the matriarchal queen, etc.—is entirely a modern invention. In reviewing literature about the Magdalene, he finds no trace of this modern Magdalene in any of the works written between the apocryphal Gospels and the Enlightenment. It is remarkable, he says, that if there were a conspiracy about a Bloodline and wife that it “has not affected the atheists or those highly critical of orthodox Christianity, like the humanist (Pietro) Pomponazzi, or the Swiss Anabaptists and the reformer (Lucillio) Vanini, who denied the divinity of Jesus, not to mention Giordano Bruno, who treats Jesus as a fraud but says nothing of the Magdalene.” In other words, the people we’d expect to have revealed or at least hinted at the conspiracy remain maddeningly silent where they should have been vocal.
 
The conclusion Iannaccone draws is that the Magdalene as fringe historians know her is a product of the rise of feminism and freethought in the eighteenth, nineteenth, and especially twentieth centuries. In his book, he said that no atheist, anti-Catholic, or feminist considered the Magdalene to be the bride of Christ before 1970. We know this is wrong because our dear friend Louis Martin, the Freemason, wrote his Gospels without God in France in 1886 and in that book declared Mary Magdalene to be the wife of Christ and the mother of Jesus’ son, Maximin. (This Louis Martin shouldn’t be confused, as I apparently confused him, with Leon Aubry, who wrote anti-Masonic and anti-Semitic books under the name Louis Martin and got himself sued as a result.)
 
In an interview with Polidoro, Iannaccone says that the bride of Christ myth emerged in nineteenth century France among freethinkers trying to get a rise out of the Church, which was then closely aligned with the French state.
It’s an idea born in the Parisian ‘counterculture’ at the end of the nineteenth century, developed by artists that were protestors and often involved in the occult, who wanted to shake up the conventions. […] For example, in 1888, an opera titled The Lover of Christ was performed in Paris. It was written by Darzens and the lover was, obviously, Mary Magdalene.
It seems Iannaccone hasn’t come across Louis Martin’s book, which is to my knowledge the oldest “wife of Christ” claim in existence. (The Cathars alleged her to be the concubine of an evil duplicate of Christ, but that wasn’t really the same thing.) It’s also odd that Iannaccone used word-for-word identical phrasing speaking with Polidoro as he did speaking with Diva e donna magazine in 2006, where he again cited Darzens as the source of the myth. The more I looked at what Polidoro described as a “personal interview,” the more I found that it was word-for-word identical to Italian-language interviews reprinted on Iannaccone’s own website. I have no idea how that occurred, but there would seem to be only two possibilities: Either the “personal interview” wasn’t with Polidori, or Iannaccone is extraordinarily consistent over a decade. Since Polidori’s account contains additional material not found in the newspaper interview from 2006, the latter must be the case… But to be word for word the same seven years apart! My word!
 
I guessed that “Darzens” refers to Rodolphe Darzens (1865-1938), the French poet, though he’d have been pretty young at the time. I had to look up the Anthologie des poètes français du XIXème siècle to discover that he is indeed the correct author. Published in Paris in late 1888, his one-act verse play L’Amante du Christ had been performed a few weeks earlier at the Théâtre Libre, on October 19. However, it was not, as Iannaccone implies, an explicit acknowledgement of the marriage of Christ, or even an opera. Instead, it was one of many pieces of its era that highlighted the erotic in the scene where the Magdalene washes Jesus’ feet. While there is the implication of love, there is neither marriage, nor sex, nor children described.
 
In fact, the American reviewer for the New York Herald most enjoyed the fact that Jesus appeared as a blond, Aryan stud! “The play is one of the most daring pieces of realism ever put on the French stage. The Saviour appears in flesh and blood, with long flaxen locks flowing over his shoulders and white raiment.” But the love of Christ and the Magdalene was the main focus: “Christ and the Magdalene are represented as loving each other, in an ultra Parisian way and with all the realism which Zola, for instance, might throw into such a situation.” I have no idea if Darzens was aware of the Gospels without God controversy, though the timing would have been about right.
 
All in all, I had really hoped that one of the world’s leading experts on Mary Magdalene in modern culture would have had more enlightening information. I guess it may well be the case that Martin’s Gospels without God is so obscure—only a few hundred copies were printed—that the modern version of the Magdalene-Jesus marriage myth arose independently. It feels to me like it shouldn’t be the case, and that some of the earlier Holy Bloodline speculators must have come across references to the Gospels without God controversy, if only in secondary sources (just like I did), but I have no way of proving it. 
67 Comments
Time Machine
2/21/2016 09:54:23 am

>>>has not affected the atheists<<<

James Randi showed on his blog in the past that the Jesus Bloodline theory is as equally irrational as the Bible.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 10:00:21 am

Iannacone's book "Maria Maddalena e la dea dell'ombra. Il sacro femminile, la spiritualità della dea e l'immaginario contemporaneo" was published in 2006. The information about Louis Martin was first published in one of Christian Doumergue's books, well after 2006.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 10:12:23 am

Christian Doumergue also drew attention to the 1897 article by in the French magazine "L’Initiation" by Dr Fugairon, who claimed that the grave of Jesus was in the South of France.

Christian Doumergue drew attention to Louis Martin in his book "La Tombe perdue - Le corps du Christ repose-t-il dans le sud de la France ?" (2008).

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 10:16:29 am

Just seen this
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/on-the-person-of-jesus-christ.html

Jason Colavito link
2/21/2016 11:53:19 am

I had meant that if Iannaccone was looking in French sources from the 19th century about Mary Magdalene, he might have stumbled on Louis Martin's idea since it was talked about in a number of publications. He was looking in the right place and the right time period but seems to have missed it, as most people did until recently.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 03:38:38 pm

Iannaccone, according to Polidoro's article has confused "The Risen" by D. H. Lawrence (correct title "The Risen Lord", a 1929 poem) with "The Escaped Cock" (a 1929 short story).

Ph
2/21/2016 11:00:14 am

I'm still find the connection between Jesus and Maria Magdalene interesting for the following (facts?)
- Book (Gospel) of Maria hints to a special relationship, but we only have fragments of the book.
- New Testament is a canon that is NOT divinely inspired, but put together with a political agenda. (IMHO)

I would welcome some unpartial research on the subject, anyone have some reputable links?

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 11:40:35 am

The Gnostics accepted both males and females and the special role assigned to Mary Magdalene would have been for that reason, a role model to represent women within Gnosticism.

Reply
Ph
2/21/2016 02:01:14 pm

I was not aware that Gnostics were already assigning special roles in the time that the Book of Mary was written.
That theory sounded more like a rationalisation after the fact to me.
Do you have more info regarding that, Time Machine?

Time Machine
2/21/2016 02:52:13 pm

I am sure Karen King said something similar.

Time Machine
2/21/2016 02:59:24 pm

Jane Schaberg, "The Resurrection of Mary Magdalene: Legends, Apocrypha, and the Christian Testament" (2004)

"The elevated role given to Mary Magdalene in the Gospel of Mary and elsewhere in gnostic or near-gnostic literature might represent the authoritative roles of women (such as prophet, teacher, healer, priest, bishop)

Ph
2/21/2016 04:57:46 pm

Thanks for that reference, i see now what you mean.

I'm not liking the phrasing, "The elevated role was given"
It implies either the author or some conclave or other decided to make her an example of the matriarchal position.

Book of Mary 5:5
"Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman."

I know translations are very subjective most of the times, even worse when words don't exactly have a match in the other language (anyone for uberhaubt or apartheid?)

That sentence has a lot more possibile, and more probable meanings then elevating someone to an authorative matriarchal role.

For me the mystery is still open, and my bias is towards a consort that did (some) wifely duties.

Time Machine
2/22/2016 08:47:14 am

>>>For me the mystery is still open, and my bias is towards a consort that did (some) wifely duties<<<

Alas, there is no historical evidence for the existence of either Jesus Christ or Mary Magdalene,

Ph
2/22/2016 11:30:09 am

"Alas, there is no historical evidence for the existence of either Jesus Christ or Mary Magdalene"

Thats what makes the mystery persist and interesting.
Even if you regard it as a folktale, the circumstantial evidence has (dare i say biblical) proportions.

Time Machine
2/22/2016 01:54:35 pm

>>>biblical) proportions<<<

Not at all -- most of the stories in the Gospels about Jesus Christ are modelled on Old Testament passages.

The reference to the washing of Jesus' feet by a woman (take your pick, it makes no difference) is modelled upon the story of the Queen of Sheba washing Solomon's feet (forgot the reference, try and find it).

Time Machine
2/22/2016 02:00:00 pm

Doesn't refer to the washing of Solomon's feet, but it's the equivalent:

Song of Solomon, 1:12-13

"While the king sitteth at his table, my spikenard sendeth forth the smell thereof. A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts."

DaveR
2/22/2016 09:15:57 am

"...divinely inspired..."

I'm still laughing over this gem.

Reply
V
2/21/2016 11:47:49 am

>>But to be word for word the same seven years apart! My word!

It's possible that the "interview" was "send me your questions by email and I'll send back responses," in which case Iannaccone may have just copied and pasted older answers from previous interviews for duplicated questions, rather than typing it all out all over again. I have certain files that have answers to questions I'm commonly asked from ten to fifteen years ago, and I'm not even a celebrity. Don't see why someone with more reputation than I have might not do the same thing.

Reply
David Bradbury
2/21/2016 11:53:26 am

Louis Martin update: I'm hoping to get sight of a copy of "The Gospels Without God" in three weeks' time. Meanwhile, I've found that in the 1890s he was an anarchist and a member of two philosophical groups, the "Harmoniens" and the "Naturiens", living in the Montmartre area of Paris.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 12:47:10 pm

Sure this wasn't Louis-Aimé Martin

Reply
David Bradbury
2/21/2016 02:08:28 pm

Certainly not the Louis-Aimé Martin who died in 1847 !
(And probably not any other, as the -Aimé is never included in descriptions of his activities).

anon
2/22/2016 07:00:03 pm

"the "Naturiens", living in the Montmartre area of Paris."

Naturism ?

Reply
David Bradbury
2/23/2016 03:23:49 am

Naturism in its original sense, of "back to nature", following the philosophy of Émile Gravelle; but yes, that did include nudism.

Juan
2/21/2016 11:57:40 am

"In fact, the American reviewer for the New York Herald most enjoyed the fact that Jesus appeared as a blond, Aryan stud! "

Sort of like Max von Sydow in "The Greatest Story Ever Told?"

Reply
Cesar
2/21/2016 03:03:09 pm

“It was one of many pieces of its era that highlighted the erotic in the scene where the Magdalene washes Jesus’ feet”.

With “in the scene” are you referring to a scene of the play? There is not such “scene” in the Gospels. Luke 7:36-50 makes no reference to Magdalene, only to “a sinful woman”.

“A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them”.

Maybe Rodolphe Darzens was conflating different passages for dramatic reasons.

Reply
Time Machine
2/21/2016 03:23:20 pm

The initiated would know that the washing of Jesus' feet is the symbolical equivalent of the women going to Jesus' tomb with spices to anoint his' body.

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Jason Colavito link
2/21/2016 04:44:17 pm

At the time, the various women of the Gospels were conflated as part of the Catholic claim that the Magdalene was a prostitute and sinner. Darzens and his audience would have thought of the sinful woman as the Magdalene even though she is not so named.

Reply
Juan
2/22/2016 11:52:13 am

Let's not forget that, as Bart Ehrman has shown, the "woman taken in adultery" was a later scribal addition, not found in earliest mss.

Time Machine
2/22/2016 01:49:50 pm

The earliest mss are not that ancient

David Bradbury
2/22/2016 02:50:52 pm

As a percentage of the time between the prefecture of Pontius Pilate and the present day, the earliest MSs of John which ought to contain that passage but don't, are around 83% ancient. Could be a lot worse!

Time Machine
2/22/2016 08:13:43 pm

But the mss do not date from the first century, the all-important time period when surviving witnesses would have still been alive, assuming the Gospels are works of historical fact, and they could be works of literalised myth. The original stories may have been actual myths that were later transformed into historical fact by later generations. And this belief kick-started the popularity of Christianity.

David Bradbury
2/23/2016 03:31:51 am

Clearly there is a good deal of mythology in the stories of Jesus Christ, but that does not rule him out as being the particular Christ whose followers were becoming troublesome to Roman officials in the later part of the 1st century.

Only Me
2/23/2016 05:06:00 am

>>>But the mss do not date from the first century<<<

That's because what we have are copies. The autographs are believed to have long disappeared. With the exception of Papyrus 72, no NT papyrus manuscript is complete. Most of what we have is fragmentary.

I have yet to hear or read anything that says someone has declared one of the surviving manuscripts as the autograph.

Time Machine
2/23/2016 06:35:06 am

>>>does not rule him out as being the particular Christ whose followers<<<

That was the corporeal Christ. There were other versions of Christianity that rejected this and believed in an incorporeal Christ.

This is problematical and cannot be dismissed. There was no incorporeal Napoleon Bonaparte or incorporeal Winston Churchill.

You referred to a political Jesus Christ and that strain of religious thought goes back to the Seleucid Invasion and could be remarkably compared to occupies France and the Vichy regime as was pointed out by the late Professor S.G.F. Brandon (which is also echoed in the story of the Teacher of Righteousness and the Wicked Priest in the Dead Sea Scrolls).

There were many different versions of Christianity that can be refined to two different superficial versions - a Jesus Christ that was a miracle-working prophet, or a Jesus Christ that represented the collective consciousness of believers.

Time Machine
2/23/2016 06:45:34 am

>>> The autographs are believed to have long disappeared<<<

But how long, that's the question. The Gospels of the New Testament would have been automatically mentioned during the first century had they existed during that period of time. But there is stonewall silence.

Again, going back to Justin Martyr who first mentioned the existence of the Gospels in the New Testament, he did not provide exact quotations from them but approximate quotations, this suggests that they date from the second century as a result of religious inspiration. Those Christians were not liars but thought differently to the way we think today, especially in relation to religion - this has been pointed out by researchers.

Form-criticism was invented by Biblical scholars to arrive at explanations but again, these "explanations" proved to be guesswork.

Emeritus Professor n the Department of Theology and Religion in Durham University, Ann Loades once introduced a television chat show on Christian origins with the words "Nobody knows who wrote the gospels, when or where they were written",

We will never be any the wiser because those facts are lost to us.


David Bradbury
2/23/2016 02:15:27 pm

"There was no incorporeal Napoleon Bonaparte or incorporeal Winston Churchill."
I wouldn't bet on that. There is an incorporeal Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement

Only Me
2/23/2016 06:39:17 pm

>>> The Gospels of the New Testament would have been automatically mentioned during the first century had they existed during that period of time.<<<

Not necessarily. Even the most conservative dates for their autographs place them at the second half of the first century. The chain of events that would include copying the autographs, translating them into other languages, copying those translations and circulation of all the copies would take time.

>>>Again, going back to Justin Martyr who first mentioned the existence of the Gospels in the New Testament, he did not provide exact quotations from them but approximate quotations, this suggests that they date from the second century as a result of religious inspiration.<<<

What about 1 Clement—referencing Matthew, John and 1 Corinthians— which most scholars place within the last two decades of the first century? Also, given the factors I mentioned above, it's difficult to imagine Ignatius could reference six Pauline epistles in 110CE if they were all written in the second century.

Since all of the second century manuscripts are from codices, I think the discovery of a scroll copy would serve two important purposes: 1) it could show when early Christians began adopting the use of a codex and 2) it has a 50/50 chance of dating to the first century, making it the oldest and possibly closest copy to the autograph.

I agree with you, there are facts that are unknown to us...and it may remain that way.

Time Machine
2/23/2016 11:12:57 pm

1 Clement did not mention the existence of Gospels.

Time Machine
2/23/2016 11:27:27 pm

>>>, it's difficult to imagine Ignatius could reference six Pauline epistles in 110CE if they were all written in the second century.<<<

1. The earliest surviving fragments of Paul's letters date from the third century AD. Thus we cannot tell how much of those letters have been tampered with by later Christians.

2. The accounts given in Paul's letters contradict the version of early Christian history as given in the Gospels.

3. Many scholars believe that the works of Ignatius of Antioch contain later interpolations and some believe that some are faked.

Only Me
2/24/2016 03:08:26 am

Clement doesn't explicitly refer to his NT sources as "Scripture"; he saves that distinction for the OT. Still, he's mentioning or alluding to NT material at around 96CE.

1. Hopefully, older copies might yet be discovered.

2. Well, not really. His undisputed letters are mostly about his life and thoughts, and some theologians already note Paul's teachings differ from those of Jesus. Since the Gospels are about the teachings of Jesus, there would appear to be some contradiction. Barrie Wilson says Paul differs in terms of the origin of his message, his teachings and his practices. Hence, the term "Pauline Christianity".

3. True, but there are at least seven letters considered to be authentic, since they were mentioned by the historian Eusebius of Caesarea.

Time Machine
2/24/2016 09:00:52 am

1. If the letters of Paul were tampered with by later Christians then they would have made sure that the earlier versions would have all been destroyed, wouldn't they...

2. The letters of Paul don't contain any references to the life of Jesus Christ (never referring to John the Baptist, Pontius Pilate, etc). As for Barrie Wilson, his agenda is similar to that of James Tabor.

3. The letters of Ignatius of Antioch could have been tampered with before Eusebius was born.

Only Me
2/24/2016 07:29:38 pm

1. Assumption.

2. That's why I mentioned his undisputed letters were about *his* life and thoughts. He wouldn't need to repeat Jesus' history if the canonical Gospels were written for that purpose.

3. Speculation. The oldest known example of Ignatius's authentic letters being altered is in the collection called the "Long Recension", its first use being traced to Anastasius of Antioch (598CE) and Stephen Gobarus (c. 575-600) . Eusebius's "Historia Ecclesiae" was completed in 323/4CE.

Time Machine
2/24/2016 08:38:21 pm

>>>He wouldn't need to repeat Jesus' history if the canonical Gospels were written for that purpose<<<

There is no proof that the gospels existed during the first century and Paul's version of Christianity cannot be reconciled with the version found in the gospels,

This has been referred to for over a century - had Paul known about Peter's denial of Christ he would have used it as ammunition against Peter in his writings. And there is a massive list that can be added on top of that to show that Paul knew absolutely nothing at all about Gospel material when he wrote his letters, Books have been written about this subject matter.

Only Me
2/24/2016 10:16:00 pm

I understand.

I would just reiterate the autographs of the Gospels are lost and we don't know how long ago that happened. Since accepted estimates place the writing of the Gospels at 70CE or later, Paul wouldn't know of them before his death in 67CE.

Only Me
2/24/2016 11:09:02 pm

I just realized my last comment contradicts the statement you were addressing. I was thinking Paul had died at a later date when I made that statement. My mistake.

Time Machine
2/25/2016 05:30:49 am

Those estimates are without any basis.

Ph
2/21/2016 06:25:12 pm

Worldcat lists 'Essai sur la vie de Jésus' with a cover title of 'Les Évangiles sans Dieu.'

https://www.worldcat.org/title/essai-sur-la-vie-de-jesus/oclc/58676157
https://www.worldcat.org/title/essai-sur-la-vie-de-jesus/oclc/458210043

La couverture porte : "Louis Martin. Les Évangiles sans Dieu" ; et le faux titre : "Études socialistes. Principes religieux"

Sure, give a book 3 titles, makes it easy to find.

Now just to find an english translation, my french is quite oxidised

Reply
Time Machine
2/22/2016 10:26:07 am

Gerald Sinclair has been thrown out of a Sinclair discussion list by Rory Sinclair for using the term Jewish Piano (cash register).

Political correctness gone mad.

Jewish people and the Irish cannot tell jokes about themselves anymore as was the routine and the "Englishman, Welshman, Scottishman and Irishman" jokes are considered offensive.

It just goes to show how flimsy society can be.

In the meantuime, the evils of the exploitation of the working classes by unscrupulous governments and employers continues to be nothing bad at all.

Reply
Time Machine
2/22/2016 10:28:23 am

Correction, Gerald Sinclair was thrown out the discussion list by Gary M. Sinclair, not Rory Sinclair

Reply
Kal
2/22/2016 05:38:26 pm

One of the posters is partly correct. The adulterous woman story was added later and is not mentioned by name.

The third Mary called Magdoline is also a bit later, and is attributed to the foot washing, although not specifically said.

The foot washing was with an oil used in burials at the time, so it was symbolic, and in no way sexual, unless the reader is a morbid foot fetishist, which is not what the Gospel meant. It is meant to be about humbleness, love and preparing for death, not about any kind of sexual passion. That would be kind of weird.

Reply
Kal
2/22/2016 05:42:13 pm

It seems someone (the author of the story that JC mentions) recently has seen 'The Last Temptation of Christ' one too many times, and possibly 'The Da Vinci Code'.

Leave it to the French to make themselves off as the heirs of Christ. Talk about humble.

The Bible is meant to be non fiction. The Mary line thing is fiction.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/22/2016 05:52:30 pm

Oh, please: Every group has its imagined ties to greatness. The British Israelists declared the Anglo-Saxons God's Chosen People, and some American Evangelical Christians argue that America is God's Chosen Land. Humility isn't in the vocabulary of pretenders to glory.

Reply
anon
2/22/2016 06:42:37 pm

"It’s an idea born in the Parisian ‘counterculture’ at the end of the nineteenth century, developed by artists that were protestors and often involved in the occult, who wanted to shake up the conventions. "

We're cocky and we think counterculture pranksters are a 1960s invention.

Reply
Time Machine
2/23/2016 06:33:27 am

>>>does not rule him out as being the particular Christ whose followers<<<

That was the corporeal Christ. There were other versions of Christianity that rejected this and believed in an incorporeal Christ.

This is problematical and cannot be dismissed. There was no incorporeal Napoleon Bonaparte or incorporeal Winston Churchill.

You referred to a political Jesus Christ and that strain of religious thought goes back to the Seleucid Invasion and could be remarkably compared to occupies France and the Vichy regime as was pointed out by the late Professor S.G.F. Brandon (which is also echoed in the story of the Teacher of Righteousness and the Wicked Priest in the Dead Sea Scrolls).

There were many different versions of Christianity that can be refined to two different superficial versions - a Jesus Christ that was a miracle-working prophet, or a Jesus Christ that represented the collective consciousness of believers.

Reply
David Bradbury
2/23/2016 02:19:03 pm

See my cheeky response to the other version of this message, upthread. You're creating a straw man.

Reply
Time Machine
2/23/2016 11:15:35 pm

There was no such thing as one version of Christianity during the first three centuries. You are overlooking this and imagining that Christianity was only that as given in the Gospel accounts.

Reply
David Bradbury
2/24/2016 03:39:47 am

No- your second sentence creates another straw man. My original point was that you were claiming my "particular Christ whose followers ..." was "the corporeal Christ" [definite article] as opposed to "an incorporeal Christ". In reality, given that the term "Christ" is a pre-Christian title rather than a name, there is no justification for such a definitive split. Any sect which made use of either the apparent biography or the collected sayings which are now found in one or more of the canonical Gospels was, in effect, based on the Christ of the Gospels- even if different sects might have regarded each others' use of the common material as heretical. Per my original point, some sects calling themselves followers of Christ might have had no connection with the Christ of the Gospels at all (but realistically, sects which had spread to distant parts of the Roman Empire by the early 2nd century probably did).

Time Machine
2/24/2016 08:53:57 am

You seem to indicate that the gospels existed during the first century. No evidence for that.

There were different versions of Christianity just as there were different versions of Judaism - which we know from the evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

To the Christians that believed in the corporeal (physical) Jesus he was the Son of God.

To the Christians that believed in the incorporeal (spiritual) Jesus he was the Word of God - the reason, the logos.


Time Machine
2/24/2016 09:10:25 am

We know that Christianity existed before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple by the Romans in 70 AD because of the letters of Paul. And what a big difference in Christianity between the letters of Paul and what is claimed in the Acts of the Apostles.

The story about Jesus Christ standing trial in front of Pontius Pilate and High Priest Caiaphas is the one reason why people tend to believe in a historical Christ.

It would be great to travel back in time to ask the historical Pilate and the historical Caiaphas what they knew about Jesus Christ or even if they ever heard his name.

The story of the massacre of the innocents by Herod is based on the Old Testament story of Moses. Here is an example where a historical character was dragged into the gospel stories. And it was not done very well at all -- because the other nativity story about the census by Quirinius contradicts the Herod version (Herod was dead at the time).

And there are other reasons why the Gospels cannot be treated as first century documents - the author of the gospel of Mark for example, wasn't knowledgeable about Judaean topography.

David Bradbury
2/25/2016 03:37:41 am

"We know that Christianity existed before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple by the Romans in 70 AD because of the letters of Paul. "
But there are no first-century manuscripts of the letters of Paul, so how can we be certain that they predate 70 AD?

Time Machine
2/25/2016 05:27:22 am

The point is that Paul never mentioned the gospels, as neither did Peter, Jude and James. Echoes begin to appear within I Clement, Ignatius, Barabbas and Papias, but these references are not identical to gospel material and resemble trial spins about the life of the historical Jesus that never found their way into the gospels. These references are the strongest evidence that the gospels did not exist before they were first mentioned by Justin Martyr.

David Bradbury
2/25/2016 09:02:23 am

But if Paul/Saul really did write the epistles of Paul, and nobody these days seriously claims that any of the Gospels as we now know them existed during his lifetime, why would anybody seriously expect him to refer to them?

Time Machine
2/25/2016 09:44:23 am

That's it. The earliest references to the "life" of Jesus began to appear towards the end of the first century, none of which tallied with the accounts in the gospels. And these references to the "life" of Jesus appeared within the context of squabbles within Christianity over the incorporeal and corporeal Christ.

David Bradbury
2/25/2016 02:57:52 pm

I think you may have an over-rigid definition of "tallied". What is notable about early non-Gospel references to Jesus/Christ is more what they omit than what they include which contradicts the Gospel accounts.

Time Machine
2/25/2016 03:13:58 pm

Accounts that waged war against the incorporeal Jesus.
The phantom Jesus goes back a long, long way

JaredMithrandir link
2/23/2016 02:36:33 pm

You seem to have overlooked the Mormon claim of Jesus having 3 wives and children form whom came the ancestor of Joseph Smith.

Reply
Time Machine
2/23/2016 11:18:16 pm

This was discussed weeks ago. The Mormons would have claimed Jesus was married with several wives because Mormons practiced polygamy.

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        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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