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Skepticism and the Value of Negative Knowledge

6/20/2014

61 Comments

 
Did you see PZ Myers’s recent blog posting about the problems with skepticism? It was an interesting read, and one that seemed to reflect criticism I have myself received on more than one occasion. In sum, Myers disapproves of skepticism because it does not generate new knowledge and instead suggests that the positive knowledge generation of science is the most effective weapons against falsehood. He uses the example of Bigfoot:
Skepticism is all about taking apart case by case, demonstrating fakery or error, and demolishing the stories of the Bigfoot frauds. That’s useful — in fact, skepticism is most useful in dealing with malicious intent and human fakery — but it doesn’t advance our knowledge significantly. The scientific approach would involve actually studying forest ecology, understanding how the ecosystem works, and getting a handle on what lives in the forest…and at the end, you’re left with something informative about the nature of the habitat, as well as a recognition that a giant ape isn’t part of the puzzle
This reflects much of the criticism I receive from my more thoughtful readers—as opposed to the angry adherents of alternative ideas: They complain that debunking ancient astronauts, Atlantis, Templar conspiracies and the like is all too negative. One reader demanded to know why I don’t come up with my own alternative explanations to explain what really happened in the past.

The most obvious reason for that is that I am not a trained historian. I have to rely on the expertise of those who have done the hard work of combing through archives and assembling the big picture of history. It takes hard work to come up with an explanation for history, and when I have ventured to do so, it was the result of years of research—as in my books, The Cult of Alien Gods, Knowing Fear, and Jason and the Argonauts. I wouldn’t give away the results of all that research for free! Moreover, fringe history thrives by holding itself as an equal and opposite alternative to mainstream history; only by explaining in great detail what is wrong with a faulty fringe history claim does it become possible to show that it is not an equal alternative.

But here is where I depart from Myers because he wants to conflate the act of skepticism with what he calls “movement” skepticism, that is to say the series of conferences, meetings, and forums revolving around the Center for Inquiry, JREF, and the Skeptics Society. These, in turn, he conflates with anyone who says something negative about anything.
Unfortunately, the current doctrines of organized skepticism open the doors to pathology, because they so poorly define the proper domain of skepticism, and what they do say are inconsistent and incoherent. What we’re stuck with is a schema that tolerates motivated reasoning, as long as it looks like debunking. […] Also…hyperskepticism. Some people take their skepticism to such pathological extremes that they become conspiracy theorists or fanatical denialists of simple human behavior.
We seem to have reached an epistemological impasse, for Myers would count climate change deniers as skeptics, the same as those who debunk psychics. Under that definition, Scott Wolter becomes a “skeptic” for doubting the teachings of the Catholic Church, and Giorgio Tsoukalos a skeptic for doubting archaeology. Indeed, many fringe thinkers have claimed they are skeptics—of academia, of the government, of science.

Myers also takes movement skepticism to task for its misogyny, which is not something I can comment on since I am not involved in movement skepticism and have never attended one of their conferences. But the human failures of an organization make no claim upon the value of doubt in search of truth.

But this was the line that was perhaps the most challenging:
When your whole business model is simply about rejecting fringe claims, rather than following the evidence no matter how mainstream the target, you’ll inevitably end up with a pathologically skewed audience that uses motivated reasoning to abuse the weak.
The first clause I think is unfair; skepticism in theory is about evaluating claims rather than planning to reject them. However, a claim that is supported by evidence isn’t really worth publishing on since there is little to say except in agreement; and if a claim is supported by evidence it ceases to be a fringe claim once that evidence is proved true. The second clause, however, is the one that is the hardest: Myers wants skeptics to focus on bigger, more mainstream targets rather than fringe claimants. But someone has to say something about the odd ideas that creep in at the fringes of rational discourse. One of the failures of the academy was to ignore fringe archaeology as unworthy of public rebuttal—don’t we have better things to do? Jeremiads calling on archaeologists to do more date back a century, but the response was always the same: It isn’t a big enough issue to care about. And today we have a world where surveys find untold millions hold illogical or fringe beliefs about archaeology. Fringe ideas seem small, but they have a funny way of growing.

The last clause is the most disturbing, the idea that skeptics would pick on the weak in the name of asserting their superiority. This strikes me as a question of how the so-called “movement” utilizes its resources, not a question of whether skepticism is invalid just because the proponent of a false claim is impecunious or has a small audience. Heaven’s Gate had just 39 members when they committed mass suicide to meet up with aliens on a passing UFO.

I understand Myers’s point, but I think he errs in confusing JREF, CFI, etc. with the value of doubt. Negative knowledge is still knowledge, and knowing what is untrue can be as valuable as know what is true. If nothing else, it saves time and energy by avoiding costly errors.

61 Comments
Josef Karpinovic
6/20/2014 07:35:09 am

I have to strongly disagree with the idea of(reasonable) skepticism, debunking, etc., being 'negative', in fact I don't understand that argument at all. There are already scholarly explanations for most of the things that fringe types like to portray as 'mysteries', all you're really doing is defending the scientific method and it's results, by exposing the lies of it's detractors. If anything, it's idle, untempered conjecture, masquerading as open mindedness, and the wholesale dismissal of academics as a bunch of biased conspirators, which is negative, I'd say.

Reply
666
6/20/2014 07:45:56 am

Skepticism is putting things to the critical test.
Good established scholarship should be doing that to its own subject matters continuously in order to maintain credibility - the debunking of fake alternative subject matters should part of the same process.

Reply
Josef Karpinovic
6/20/2014 07:51:17 am

I agree 100%, and, most of the time I think that they are part of the same process.

Reply
Cathleen Anderson
6/20/2014 10:44:57 am

Typo in second to last paragraph. I think the word if should be is in that first sentence.

Reply
Will
6/20/2014 11:18:38 am

Isn't this guy's argument kind of circular? I mean isn't he kind of skeptical about skeptics?

Reply
Chris
6/20/2014 11:45:57 am

To use a sports metaphor, you have to play defense as well as offense, and some people are better at and tend to focus on one as opposed to the other.
The other issue here is that Myers seems to imply that "skeptics" are only skeptical about certain things. That is simply not the case. I, for example, am skeptical of many things until there is a sufficient evidence that those ideas are true (heck, I used to be skeptical about global warming). I (like other "skeptics") only voice my doubts when the evidence proves insufficient, and fringe claims are simply the worst offenders when it comes to bad evidence.

Reply
Chris
6/20/2014 12:03:11 pm

We are evolutionary pattern-seeking creatures with the added benefit of higher brain functions. The same pattern-seeking takes place at that higher level and results in belief systems and the applications thereof. The scientific method is a tool to cut through that and remove our beliefs and pattern-seeking from the process of fact-finding.

I see debunking as akin to pointing out that someone is not using this tool or, more likely, is using this tool wrong.

Reply
Dave Lewis
6/20/2014 02:49:33 pm

Here's a blog post entitled PZ Myers quits skeptic movement, should we care?

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2013/05/pz-myers-quits-skeptic-movement-should.html

Reply
666
6/20/2014 06:23:12 pm

"the straw that broke the camel’s back apparently came during the recent Freethought Alliance meeting in Orange County, CA, in disgusted reaction to another speaker’s remarks."

P. Z. Myers is author of "The Happy Atheist" (Pantheon, 2013)

Reply
666
6/20/2014 06:39:28 pm

P. Z. Myers is an outspoken critic of intelligent design (ID) and the creationist movement, and is active in the American creation–evolution controversy. He is widely regarded as a confrontationalist.

Myers received the American Humanist Association's 2009 Humanist of the Year award and International Humanist Award in 2011. Asteroid 153298 Paulmyers is named in his honor.

charlie
6/21/2014 03:50:29 am

For myself, NO, I do not care what P. Z. does. I used to follow his blog and some of the others at the "free thought" blogs site. No more, IF you dare to not agree with the exalted Mr. Myers, even on some point that you may not have fully understood, after explaining that you (me actually) is NOT a "scholar" but just an old retired machinist, you still will be raked over the coals, and not only by the "great man" himself, but his devoted acolytes are all too happy to pile on.
Some of the other blogs at that site can be worth my time now and then, but I found many of them to be much like some religious/fringe sites where if you dare disagree with the blog author, you will be put in your place as an idiot and shunned. Thrust me, many of the supposed "free thinkers" and "scientific rationalists"(whatever the hell that means) can be just a dogmatic and bullying as any other cult, be it religious(as in main stream religion), loony religious cult or even fringe groups.
One thing about Jason, as far as I have seen here, he does not get highly upset and rant on at those of us who question what he posts.
Be wary of those who blog and are held up on some pedestal by the followers they accumulate. I think P.Z. is starting to believe his own PR and that is sad as he usually has something to say that is of interest, but I refuse to bow to any persons ego.

Reply
Gregor
6/20/2014 03:00:19 pm

I don't know...I may be alone on this, but to me saying that "[skepticism] doesn't advance our knowledge significantly" is akin to saying "I like my chair, but it doesn't clean my bathtub." I don't see Skepticism as a [new] knowledge divining process, rather as a guard against rampant speculation (with manic creativity on one end, ignorant asshattery on the other). Neither is it a blunt with which to club people nor a self-contained system of glad-handing and spite. Put simply, it's surface tension. If the preponderance of evidence falls on the side of change, it breaks. If not, it remains intact and change is rejected.

For me, the "advancement of knowledge" is the job of the scientist who - at least in my own little world - is an individual trained to entertain (but not be consumed by) unusual ideas and potentially non-traditional avenues of inquiry.... which then either pan out, or don't.

For what part I can agree with the source text, I would say that as the two camps exist "in practice", I see the "Skeptic" vs. "Believer" interaction increasingly becoming like those involved in the "Atheist" vs. "Faithful" debacle: neither side honestly represents their view (or their fellows), they just like creating drama and being jackasses to one another

Reply
666
6/20/2014 06:26:44 pm

There are folks contributing to this blog only too happy to criticise Scott Wolter, but who reject freethinking and scepticism.

Of course, enough said

Reply
Only Me
6/20/2014 04:25:41 pm

While Myers has a point, I think his focus is too limited. One doesn't have to be a member of "movement" skepticism or the fringe element to contribute to skepticism run amok.

Take for example, an excerpt from a comment made on another forum I visited today:

[Just some food for thought...the whole idea of "proof" being needed is debatable within itself. Think about it...we are told there are black holes in space....do we believe that, and do we really have/need proof?? Other things "most intelligent people" believe, without concrete proof are too numerous to list...DNA; man has really been on the moon; molecules & atoms make up everything we see; God exists...and the list goes on!!!]

The level of skepticism in that statement could be considered outright ridiculous, as apparently the "positive knowledge generation" of science has had no effect on his personal opinions.

Reply
666
6/20/2014 06:17:39 pm

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/mower-equipment-operation/19887-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-8.html

Reply
Only Me
6/20/2014 07:56:33 pm

Yep, a lawn mower forum of all places. That highlights my point.

See, Myers and fringe theorists both see too much skepticism as being a problem, but arrive at different conclusions as to the end result. For Myers, it's the lack of advancement of new knowledge; for fringe theorists, it's proof of conspiracy. These attitudes and conclusions filter to the rest of society, creating differing schools of thought:

1) Science is the answer and fringe theory is garbage...ignore it and it will go away
2) Science is stagnant, eternally locked in a paradigm and only alternative theories can reveal the truth "they" don't want you to know
3) Both science and fringe theory are self-serving, neither having satisfactory answers, and I can't trust what either of them tell me
4) Let's look at the claims and evidence of fringe theory, compare it to the collective research of the experts and try to arrive at the most informed conclusion we can

In this case, I see little difference between too much skepticism and not enough.

666
6/20/2014 07:59:57 pm

And the composition of the Bible and the invention of Religion has "nothing to do" with self-serving.

Only Me
6/20/2014 09:47:21 pm

When you have a point that is on-topic, let me know.

Varika
6/21/2014 10:27:43 am

Um...666...you DO realize that "religion" did not start with Christianity, right? And that for the vast majority of recorded history, neither Christianity nor Judaism were particularly large players on the world stage? If you're going to diss religion in general, at least remedy your ignorance that far.

666
6/21/2014 12:36:08 am

>>Science is the answer and fringe theory is garbage...ignore it and it will go away<<

This attitude has been the fatal mistake of scholarship and science. By bursting out laughing at fringe material and ignoring it in the process for being too nutty, it has allowed it to grow.

>>Both science and fringe theory are self-serving, neither having satisfactory answers<<

Science is self-serving in the sense that it is always correcting itself through revision when new knowledge is introduced and alters perceptions of understanding

Alternative theories are self-serving in the sense that their existence rely upon emotional fulfilment that acts as pleasure (like watching a good film, or holding a religious creed), and are not based on objective demonstrable facts.

>>little difference between too much skepticism and not enough<<

There can never be "too much" skepticism

Reply
charlie
6/21/2014 04:10:26 am

OK, so P.Z. says skepticism does not advance knowledge. So what?
Seriously, why is that such a bloody big deal? Does everything HE do "advance knowledge"? I bet he will never answer that question IF anybody would dare to ask him. I have found him, my opinion only, yours may vary, to be very self assured/self centered, and I get the impression that we lesser people must take his pronouncements as wondrous tidings from on high.
Question, does going to a place you enjoy and spending the day having fun there advance knowledge? Does having a discussion on any topic at all with people you enjoy being around always advance knowledge? What in hell is so necessary that everything we do MUST always advance knowledge.
You can read the glad tidings of P.Z. Myers. I'll pass for now. I think he is beginning to buy into his own PR and getting a bit too high and mighty. The entire "free thought" blog site, various blogs/authors can be not so accepting of actual free thought and many of those who blog there do not like to be questioned by a lowly retired old machinist who is also a combat vet from the vile imperial war in Vietnam. They seem to be more interested in gathering followers and those who agree than explaining their pronouncements to such a lowly person as myself and do not appreciate my simple minded (I was told my questions were such more than once there) Big deal, in my life I have been called worse than that and it did not bother me, but what DID bother was the lack of even the most cursory explanation. When your questions/comments are totally ignored, why bother to ask/comment, going further, why bother to read such a blog/site? So many blogs/web sites have gone downhill in the recent few years. They start out great, but as the author gets more groupies and gains some small "fame", they let it go to their heads and off to the races folks.
Read P.Z. all you want, the net is still free and open, for now at least, but I'll not make any more comments about dear old P.Z. and his blog/ web site, nor the "free thought" site in any way.
I just needed to get this said for the last time. Be very careful WHO you hold up as exalted. Or, as Bob Dylan sang; "Don't follow leaders, and watch the parking meters............"

666
6/21/2014 12:20:57 am

The antonym of scepticism is conviction

Reply
Lynn Brant
6/21/2014 12:37:24 am

Two of the first things I learned about science is that the facts are always friendly, and that negative findings are findings nonetheless.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 03:39:23 am

Part of the problem with positions like the one Myers takes is that there's this implied duty on the part of any given person to challenge any given idea on any given day. There's not; if a cursory review of the idea shows that the thinking is shoddy, most academics simply ignore it and move on. It doesn't even matter if the idea is fundamentally right and needs refinement, if the foundation's bad, let it tumble on its own. Unfortunately, you can't un-think ideas, so once they've been said, even when it tumbles on its own, someone else will come along, pick up the pieces, and keep tinkering with it. A lot of the fringe "idea structures" we see today come from exactly this root, where lesser sons of greater fathers pick up, say, Donnelly's Atlantis and add to it. The idea is still ludicrous, and there's plenty of evidence to show that it is, but it's not yours, my, or anyone else's duty to go around correcting every single error we see. No one has infinite time, therefore no one has infinite error-correcting capacity, and no one has infinite interest, and therefore most of the silliness that any given person sees gets ignored. You pick and choose the errors you correct and hope the ones that you don't don't come back to bite you.

Reply
666
6/21/2014 04:17:27 am

Supporters of Established Scholarship should accept Evolution. Rejection of inspired Biblical teaching like Creationism should be encouraged. The Bible is a fraud.

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 04:22:57 am

Supporters of clear thinking should reject red herrings and strawmen. You're the one who keeps bringing the Bible up on every thread you post, no one else. Anyone who disagrees with you must be "believers in mystification," "closet churchgoers," or something equally dismissive. Very well, I can play that game too. You clearly practice bestiality. I have no evidence to support this, but you've said humans are no different from any other member of the animal kingdom, and you haven't jumped through hoops to prove to me that you DON'T practice bestiality, so it must be true!

666
6/21/2014 04:29:45 am

Supporters of Established Scholarship should transparently support scientific facts. Not half support scientific facts and half support Biblical teachings that contradict scientific facts.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 04:38:31 am

Supporters of the scientific method should not make broad, sweeping statements as to the possibility or impossibility of something, confining themselves instead to probability and the weight of the available evidence. And again with the strawmen - please, lay out to me which Biblical facts I support? I don't recall ever saying "because the Bible says so" or even using it as a reference.

666
6/21/2014 04:42:54 am

Evolution has been tested and tested and confirmed to be scientific fact. There is consensus agreement in Established Scholarship.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 05:03:15 am

And you again avoid my question. First, when have I questioned evolution? Second, when have I appealed to religious authority?

Let us speak plainly here for a change, instead of going "supporters of." You're a zealot, and your outrage is limited and misdirected. I note that you constantly harp on "the Bible" and Christians. I have yet to hear you tell us how Ask and Embla weren't carved out of wood, or how Amaterasu wasn't raped to produce the islands of Japan. You haven't told us how the Olympians weren't really formed from Gaia and Uranus. I haven't heard you tell us how the Koran is a work of fiction. It's always Christianity, and it's always "the Bible is a lie." No, it's not a lie; it's rather hard for an instruction manual to be a lie. It's possible for it to be incorrect, and fusing your instruction manual with what started as an oral history, then insisting that every word of it must be literal truth just clouds the problem. That, however, does not make it a lie, unless you also take me saying I ate lunch at eleven yesterday as a lie when I actually ate it at 11:30 and misremembered because I usually eat at eleven.

For that matter, you yourself aren't sufficiently skeptical. You claim a scientific backing for everything you say, but more often than not, there are plenty of holes in your argument. You say others shouldn't accept Big Bearded Jesus In The Sky, but you wouldn't turn that same lens on any number of subatomic particles whose presence or existence can only be detected by their effects on other things, not by direct detection. You say that human beings are just animals, which is absolutely true, since we're made of meat and die just as easily as anything else, but would you then argue that I should be tried for murder because I ran a snake over with a lawnmower? Your arguments are weak and flawed, you make giant pronouncements as if they're Handed Down From On High, and you never bother with support, just repetition.

You are tiresome, boring, a poor debater, and thoroughly unoriginal. I can't count the number of times I ignored you rabbiting on about Gematria - which, again, I cannot care less about. The only reason I am here now is because you are actively ruining the experience of reading here for me. You specifically, not anyone else. For the sake of the rest of us, either learn to stick to the topic at hand, or prove so far as we're concerned that you truly believe that life is a random, meaningless occurrence and shut up.

666
6/21/2014 05:24:43 am

Another nebulous posting

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 05:32:02 am

Ah yes, nothing says nebulous like "you are a zealot," followed by examples, and nothing says "clear and concise" like dodging questions.

666
6/21/2014 05:45:10 am

Accusing people who accept the scientific fact of evolution with bestiality is not exactly an endorsement of evolution, especially when it comes from someone who claims the Bible is divinely inspired.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 05:50:11 am

When did I state that the Bible was divinely inspired, please? I can think of once that I said "IF" - and "if" is a conditional, not a flat statement. You appear to ignore the part about its literal truth requires that the stars and the rocks be lying, or the part where I said a physical, historical Christ would obviously not be a divine figure. So please, again, tell me where I said the Bible was divinely inspired?

666
6/21/2014 06:00:59 am

Gee, never endorsed the historical cultural importance of the Church, never acknowledged that the fictions found in Josephus were propped-up by New Testament scholarship despite the facts that prove the case is the contrary (the testimonies of Origen, John of Damascus, Andrew of Crete and Jerome can be added because I forgot his reference to Jesus found in Josephus). Never said "You clearly practice bestiality. I have no evidence to support this, but you've said humans are no different from any other member of the animal kingdom, and you haven't jumped through hoops to prove to me that you DON'T practice bestiality, so it must be true!"

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 06:21:40 am

The last is the same rhetorical device you use, saying that anyone who disagrees with you must have religion in mind. The last time I was in a religious institution of any kind was 2003, so yeah, I must be a "closet churchgoer." See? Just as much evidence as that you practice bestiality.

As for the cultural importance of the Catholic Church - yep, I endorsed it. Last I checked, the Church was where literacy lived in western Europe between about 400 and 1400. The great educational institutions of Europe - Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne, to name three - were all started for religious education, again, by the Catholic Church. For that matter, it's not JUST the Catholic Church. The foundations of learning in eastern Europe were also monastic, there was no tradition of secular religious education to speak of in the eastern Roman empire. Medieval Islam used its religious teachings as a tax source, but left people of the Book alone, leading to things like algebra and alchemy - perhaps you've heard of them? Without the existing religious conditions, they never would have existed. I could go on and on with the list of religious architecture in thoroughly non-Christian settings. The Parthenon and Angkor Wat were both temples, after all.

As for the last - Josephus. Your argument is internally flawed. You say that all references to Christ are later additions by Eusebius. Very well; then explain your own earlier reference to Origen, who wrote on Josephus referring to James, brother of Jesus. It cannot be both: It cannot be "there are no references" and "there's an earlier reference." Further, your argument that "no two scholars agree what it looked like, so it must not exist" regarding the original shape of the Eusebius-tainted passages is equally flawed. Physicists cannot tell you what a quark looks like, and an electron has never been directly observed, but we know from signs of their passage that they exist, and we can observe some of their properties. That a passage describing Jesus DID exist in some form seems likely to me, whether it was later altered by Eusebius or not. I reach that conclusion by examining the exact same evidence as you - which is to say, I did five minutes' worth of research on the Internet - and by examining the existing conditions as follows.

First, you don't argue that Josephus didn't describe John the Baptist. You accept a description of a known Biblical figure.

Second, you don't argue that Josephus didn't describe James the Younger. You therefore accept a description of a second known Biblical figure.

Third, you don't argue that first-century Judaea was in the midst of a messianic revival. You therefore accept the conditions for a historical Jesus are possible.

Fourth, you argue that any New Testament scholar that disagrees with you must be a closet churchgoer. This is especially rich since the overwhelming majority of them are professional theologians. I don't say this makes them right; I say this makes their biases obvious, unlike you. At the same time, you would happily take in hand any priest who suggests that the New Testament is not perfectly true, so "closet churchgoer" is code for "someone who disagrees with me."

Fifth, you discard references to Jesus in any other source as "forgeries" or "frauds," never mind that the references to Jesus in Tacitus isn't particularly flattering to Christians.

Summary:

The mass of circumstantial evidence leads me to the belief first, that Josephus wrote on Christ in at least two places; second, that other Roman authors of the pre-Christian period wrote on Christ, generally in a less than flattering light; third, that you refuse to disclose your own biases while claiming to see them in everyone else; fourth, that for all your high talk, you are highly unscientific in your approach; fifth, that the divinity of Christ is hurt, not helped, by the existence of a historical Christ, so your claims that religion is my motivation are flawed to begin; sixth, that you yourself cling dogmatically to positions even when they make no sense.

666
6/21/2014 06:35:05 am

All wrong. I cannot accept your "summary" because I do not accept your standards. People holding different standards hold different conclusions.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 06:43:18 am

So you admit that it is possible for two people to reach radically diverging conclusions from the exact same evidence?

Jason Colavito link
6/21/2014 06:47:21 am

None of this discussion of the Bible is relevant to this blog post. Please stop. Any more, and I'm deleting the thread.

666
6/21/2014 06:47:58 am

I am not going to critically dissect a message consisting of 683 words especially when it would involve repetition.

Your posting shows lack of scepticism.

An Over-Educated Grunt
6/21/2014 06:56:26 am

Sorry, Jason. I've said before - not terribly good at keeping my mouth shut.

Gunn Sinclair link
6/21/2014 04:06:21 am

Facts are facts and truth is truth, whether we perceive the information correctly or not. Truth is there, ready to be explored. Skeptics may say, "Don't waste your time, you won't find anything new," so being overly skeptical can impede the search for truth.

The Kensington Runestone is a good example of this. There is plenty of so-called "evidence" in this subject, but skeptics would like to automatically discard all of this preponderance of evidence, in favor of a "scientific" approach, which means ignoring everything out of obedience to the art of being skeptical.

My own feelings is that the KRS will prove itself out eventually, when the big picture is finally encapsulated within a body of recognized truth...an example being the recognition of far inland waterways making this medieval travel possible in the first place.

In my opinion, skeptics are getting in the way of the truth about the KRS by being hidebound to skepticism. This form of skepticism is hindering the search for truth, because of "scientific close-mindedness."

Over the months here on this blog, I think I may have persuaded some few to consider the KRS as being genuine, though there are those who are dogged in their persistence that it is not even possible for it to be genuine...since everybody knows the French were the first Europeans to arrive up here in this hinterland.

I have seen how whacky conspiracy theories work here, and I have also seen how skepticism works; however, the KRS doesn't represent a conspiracy theory. Rather, it represents an actual artifact, which is basically surrounded geographically with a multiplicity of other artifacts...all ignored by ardent skeptics. The skepticism doesn't make the preponderance of evidence any less real, as there are far too many objects under consideration to be this dismissive...and unwise.

Eventually, the main facts concerning the KRS will become known as truth, even though for the time being the skeptics may be seen as winning, at least here on this particular blog...partly due to Wolter's lack of professionalism, and partly due to the blog host's innate, hidebound views about the KRS.

We would all do well to remember that a more professional opinion was rendered by a geologist (Winchell) well before Wolter came along to muddy the KRS inland waterways with blood. As for conspiracies, skeptics will need to decide whether or not the preponderance of evidences up here was created as wholly conspiratorial in nature, or not. In other words, are the KRS skeptics prepared to admit having a conspiratorial mindset concerning all these evidences, or not? Does the KRS have skeptics wallowing in absurd conspiracy theories about the manufacture of not only the KRS, but also all the stoneholes and metal weapons and easy-to-follow waterways making these medieval excursions possible in the first place?

In the past here, I experienced a lot of skepticism over inland waterways because the waterways lead to the truth about the KRS. I have seen over-skepticism firsthand here on this blog, and I consider this form of skepticism to be harmful to the cause of discovering further truth. I'm saying that I believe skeptics can be as blind to truth as some believers in fringe history tend to be. Eventually, we will discover that the KRS is not even fringe history at all, but rather truthful history trying to break free. Admittedly, Wolter hasn't made this easy. He popularized the notion of the KRS being genuine, but he left us with bloody muddiness, not clarity.

I look forward to the future of the KRS, which gives every indication of presenting us with an abundance of very real history...eventually. When this happens, some of us will smile, while others will frown with displeasure despite the new facts and truth.

Bottom Line: A conspiracy didn't provide for the many, many evidences up here related to medieval European excursions, so I wish the anti-KRS conspirators (skeptics) would lighten-up and not feel the need for being so ridiculously hidebound!

Reply
666
6/21/2014 04:18:39 am

Rejection through Scepticism of the above posting should be encouraged.

Reply
Gunn
6/21/2014 12:17:14 pm

666, you represent very well the bogus mindset I was referring to. Thanks for your personal confirmation of over-skepticism being crass in nature, and unproductive, which was my point.

By the way, it is also crass to attempt to separate evolution from creationism, since they can and do bind together very well (in my viewpoint). You cannot separate the two and declare victory.

Value of negative knowledge? This term seems to be a misnomer, since much of the "knowledge" being disseminated here isn't really knowledge at all, but rather declarations of opinion...not at all fact-based truth. Empty opinions are worthless here; persuasion is key.

555
6/21/2014 01:21:20 pm

More crass

Laetitia
6/21/2014 09:37:03 am

Every time Gunn goes on another KRS rant, I am reminded of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApxnAr6pRt0&feature=kp

Reply
Gunn
6/21/2014 12:34:53 pm

Laetitia, that clip was a poor rendition of non-Vikings reaching New Gotaland--not on their way to the Western Shores. Those Scandinavians who came well after the Viking period were happy with far inland waterways for the time being. (Expansion west came later with other white people, if that's the issue you wish for.)

Gary
6/21/2014 04:42:19 am

From a recent articly by Myers: "Don't you hate it when you get up in the morning and the first thing you read on the internet is the news that your entire career has been a waste of time, your whole field of study has collapsed, and you're going to have to rethink your entire future? Happens to me all the time. But then, I read the creationist news, so I've become desensitized to the whole idea of intellectual catastrophes."

He's a hypocrite, accusing everyone else of what he does regularly.

To say that we have to study everything else in nature so there won't be any room for Bigfoot claims is really absurd.

Reply
666
6/21/2014 04:49:07 am

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/06/18/do-the-creationist-shuffle-and-twist/

Reply
Gary
6/21/2014 05:34:02 am

Yes, he's an obsessed debunker, but I guess no one else is doing it right.

Gunn
6/21/2014 12:43:02 pm

Only a fool would take on the moniker-symbol of the Devil and what he represents. 666, you cannot possibly be that evil, though the thought of being so may be provocative to you, in an unbelieving way.

666
6/21/2014 01:22:40 pm

No bigger fool than you

Gary
6/21/2014 02:04:24 pm

Actually, it's 616.

666
6/21/2014 08:34:21 pm

>>>Actually, it's 616<<<

Take your pick - it did not become 616 until someone changed the interpretation

Gary
6/22/2014 12:49:13 am

According to what I've read, the oldest known copy says 616.

666
6/22/2014 01:12:52 am

See below

666
6/22/2014 01:18:04 am

Theresa Bane, "Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures", page 42, McFarland & Company, Inc., 2012

"In 2005, however, scholars at Oxford University have translated the oldest known copy of the Book of Revelation, a 1,700-year-old papyrus, which has led them to conclude that six hundred sixteen (616) is the original Number of the Beast"

666
6/22/2014 01:25:21 am

There is only one other MS that gives the number 616 - Codex Ephraimi Rescriptus, fifth or sixth century

666
6/22/2014 01:32:49 am

http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm

666
6/21/2014 09:08:38 pm

Ben Witherington, "Revelation" (Cambridge University Press, 2003)

Some manuscripts read 616 instead of 666, though they are decidedly in the minority.



Robert H. Mounce, "The Book of Revelation" (Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Co, Revised Edition 1998)

The solution most commonly accepted today is that 666 is the numerical equivalent of Nero Caesar. It is held to be supported by the variant reading 616, which also yields the name of Nero when the Latinized spelling is followed. [footnote: 616 is better accounted for as a deliberate attempt to identify the beast with Caligula. His name in Greek totals 616] What is not generally stressed is that this solution asks us to calculate a Hebrew transliteration of the Greek form of a Latin name, and that with a defective spelling. A shift to Hebrew letters is unlikely in that Revelation is written in Greek and there is no indication that the riddle is to be solved by transposing it into another language. Further, the name of Nero was apparently never suggested by the ancient commentators even though his persecuting zeal made him a model of the Antichrist.

Reply
Mark L
6/24/2014 03:04:50 am

It's similar to the Joe Nickell thing you talked about a few weeks ago - a "professional" debunker wants us all to shut up so he and his few other colleagues lucky enough to be paid for it can get on with their work.

The logical fallacies in his argument have been dealt with elsewhere in these comments, so I won't say a lot more. I guess it's just that, no matter the quality of the argument being better on our side of the trenches, the quality of the people is still sadly the same.

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      • Expedition Unknown Reviews
      • Legends of the Lost
      • Unexplained + Unexplored
      • Rob Riggle: Global Investigator
    • Book Reviews
    • Galleries >
      • Bad Archaeology
      • Ancient Civilizations >
        • Ancient Egypt
        • Ancient Greece
        • Ancient Near East
        • Ancient Americas
      • Supernatural History
      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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