Swedish Scholar Finds New Evidence that the Kensington Runestone Uses 19th Century Runes

11/29/2017

If you are a longtime reader of this blog, you are undoubtedly familiar with the legend of the Kensington Runestone, a rune-covered stone unearthed in the nineteenth century in Minnesota and alleged to be a record of a Norse expedition from Vinland to the interior of North America in the mid-1300s. Since the stone’s exhumation in 1898, a debate has raged between true believers on one hand and scientists and historians on the other over the stone’s authenticity. Mainstream opinion holds that the stone is a hoax carved in the 1800s, likely as part of an effort by Scandinavian immigrants to lay historic claim to the new land where they found themselves living. Fringe opinion believes it to be an authentic medieval record, with the most complex evaluation offered by former television personality Scott F. Wolter, who sees the stone as the cornerstone (so to speak) of a vast conspiracy by Knights Templar, Cistercian monks, and Freemasons to claim nearly all of North America as the hereditary kingdom of Jesus’ descendants through Mary Magdalene

The crux of the argument centers on the unusual form of the runes used on the rune stone, including the infamous “Hooked X®,” more accurately a variant of the rune for “A” in which an extra line is attached as a branch on one of the staves of the X-shaped rune. The non-standard forms and unusual grammar have resulted in an argument between those who claim them to be evidence of a hoax and those who have searched far and wide for medieval precedent for forms that were, for most of their existence, otherwise unattested in scholarly literature.

Now the official blog of the Swedish National Heritage Board has surprising new evidence that confirms the hypothesis that the unusual and non-standard runes found on the Kensington Rune Stone are in fact of nineteenth century vintage, or at any rate not the runes used by medieval French knights.

On Sunday, runologist Magnus Källström presented his research into an odd bit of Swedish history and its impact on our understanding of the Kensington Rune Stone. I do not speak Swedish, so you will forgive me if I have relied on Google Translate and a dictionary to help understand Källström’s findings, which so far as I know have not yet been translated in or published in English.

It’s important to note that the information below hasn’t yet been formally published in an academic journal, and so far as I know, other scholars have not yet weighed in on it. The information is fascinating, but as of now it is still speculative. More information and research will be needed to establish a firm connection to the Kensington Runestone.

Källström reports that he came across an unusual 1942 newspaper article that seemed to depict the same variant runes that we find on the Kensington Runestone. The article stated that the runes were located in the central Swedish province of Medelpad in the town of Haverö, and it called these the “Haverö runes.” According to the article, Sweden’s then-greatest rune expert of the era Otto von Friesen, a professor in Uppsala, declared that the script was unknown to him, though it resembled some other forms of runic writing he had seen in some regards. Källström was struck by the fact, unnoticed by von Friesen, that the runes were identical to those on the Kensington Runestone, including the infamous “Hooked X.”

Källström leapt to his phone and called the local authorities to try to find the inscription that the 1942 reporter had seen, and sure enough it still exists, on a wooden rod. Källström wasn’t able to get out to see it himself until October of this year, his last opportunity to do so before—and this is a charmingly Swedish detail—winter made them inaccessible for six months due to snow and ice. Upon examining the wooden artifacts, Källström found that they contained not just identical runes to those on the Kensington Runsetone but also characters in a similar style representing letters not used on the Kensington inscription. He later discovered that other local runic alphabets were highly similar but with minor differences, as you would expect when a style is localized in many different, largely isolated rural locations.

The kicker is that Källström found that some of the inscriptions recorded information in an old Swedish standard of measurement that ceased to be used after 1888, meaning that the inscription must have predated the government mandate to change measuring systems. This prompted him to look for evidence that the largely unattested writing system was in use before the Kensington Runestone was unearthed. He learned that Nils Månsson Mandelgren had found it being used as a cypher code in 1869. But there was more:

A variant of the same cipher was also found in Møre in Norway during the 19th century. According to an article in the Norwegian Agricultural Bulletin in 1811, it was referred to as “the Møre alphabet” and would have been used in the area for at least half a century. Even the Icelanders who collected information on different types of runic alphabets in the 19th century recorded this cipher, but instead called it grindaletu

Having established that the Møre Alphabet (det mørske alfabet) predates the Kensington Runestone, the question to address is why it had not come to scholarly attention. His answer is admirably simple, based on the ethnographic record: The text was used by children and young adults as a play code:

Probably this is a secret written language that was created and spread by a certain group of people. It has previously been suggested that they were migrant craftsmen, but also that it may be something that had already been learned in childhood, and which may have been used primarily among children. Runologist Jan Ragnar Hagland has given several examples of the latter from Norway in the 19th century.

The conclusion therefore is that the man who faked the Kensington Runestone used his childhood knowledge of runes. Källström goes into much more detail that I am either interested in or could entirely follow, and explained some slight discrepancies with recourse to various other sources of information available to a faker. Based on this information and the appearance of a closely related, though not identical, cypher among the Larsson papers, Källström suggests that Anders Andersson faked the Runestone since he was originally from Linsell in the same central region as this newly rediscovered alphabet and had the opportunity to have learned this local peasant alphabet.

“Of course, this is certainly not a definitive solution to the Kensington problem, but I am convinced that we are homing in on the origins of the Kensington Runestone, and that it is to be sought in a somewhat more northerly sphere than it has been up to now,” Källström concludes.

A true believer might argue that the “secret” alphabet in use in the nineteenth century is a survival of a medieval original, but the lack of evidence from medieval times combined with the growing body of evidence that the unusual runes of the Kensington Runestone were familiar to the type of lower class immigrants who left Sweden for America at just the time when the stone came out of the ground is powerful circumstantial evidence that the Runestone is a fake

275 Comments

Only Me

11/29/2017 09:37:25 am

That is really fascinating.

Never fear, though. Scott "I know enough to be dangerous" Wolter will find some way to attack the character and motives of Källström as part of his imagined Swedish conspiracy. Another megalithic yarn awaits to be born.

Catspaw Assassin

11/29/2017 10:49:19 am

Wolter only wishes he had a cool name like Magnus Källström.

Dunior

11/29/2017 10:31:04 am

I'm sure Mr. Wolter will totally ignore this and forge on through the fog anyway. He has a way of totally ignoring any informmation that suggests the KRS is a later fake. Amazing that this questionable artifact is the linchpin of all of his equally dubious hypothesis. "Strike three you're out mister." This seems to be the proverbial nail in the coffin here. I'm sure he has a patented Labrador retriever response to this already! Oh the humanity!

B L

11/29/2017 10:38:35 am

Neat article, Jason. Thanks. This won't be the nail in the coffin for Wolter's strange theories. Instead, he'll likely focus on this one line: "Probably this is a secret written language that was created and spread by a certain group of people. It has previously been suggested that they were migrant craftsmen....". He'll likely tell his followers that these migrant craftsmen were obviously Masons, and that these runes were passed down to them by medieval Templars. On and on it will go.

Jim

11/29/2017 07:15:58 pm

There is no doubt a rock in the Newport Tower that when measured diagonally is the same length as this measuring stick.

Joe Scales

11/29/2017 11:02:34 am

Well, let's see... in recent months Wolter has maintained the following:

1) Leonardo Da Vinci created the Shroud of Turin, though he wasn't born yet at the time of its creation.

2) Ponce De Leon could have carved the "De" on the Overton Stone located in Nova Scotia... which is so incredibly asinine that it is self-debunking.

3) Templars interbreeding with Native Americans in the 14th century cleaned up all archaeological traces of their existence because Jesuits... an order not formed for another two centuries... were "hot on their trail". This of course was easy for them as they practiced "extreme cleanliness".

Of course there are other tasty morsels too numerous to mention that he spouts off on a nearly daily basis to dodge critical inquiry on his blog. But the above represents evidence enough that he will never veer off course no matter what evidence is presented to counter what has now morphed into pure lunatic antics posing as scholarship.

My guess is that he'll simply inform us that Källström knows nothing of Templars, Freemasons and their secret societies, and dismiss this with more unfettered abominations of pure fantasy.

Jim

11/29/2017 11:49:30 am

That is a win, win situation. Wolter gets exposed and continues to entertain us!

Sabine Lechtenfeld

5/7/2021 01:27:47 pm

Wait!! I am not at all a Scott-Wolter fan. Most of his claims are fairly ludicrous. But we should not throw away all babies with the bath tub water! The idea that Da Vinci produced the Turin Shroud is one of the more plausible narratives of how this enigmatic relic was created. It is far more plausible than the claim of the true believers that the image on the shroud is a side effect of the radiation caused by Jesus´ resurrection ;) And it´s not true that Da Vinci could not have faked the Turin Shroud. The fabric of the shroud has indeed left the medieval loom way before Da Vinci was born. But we do not know when exactly the image was created. Whoever was creative and intelligent enough to produce the image on the shroud, would not have used brand new fabric, but would have tried to get hold of a batch of older fabric with plenty of shabby chique. It was supposed to be Jesus´ burial shroud after all! A modern con artist who wants to fake a baroque painting also would not use 21st century material!
The idea that Da Vinci may have fabricated the Turin Shroud definitely has some merit for various reasons. The problem is that this theory - which is not at all brand new - has been highjacked by the Da-Vinci-Code crowd. And Scott Wolter has latched on to their ideas like a leech!

An Over-Educated Grunt

11/29/2017 11:03:29 am

Mørske would be darkest, mørke would be dark, if my Norwegian holds.

Jason Colavito link

11/29/2017 11:25:58 am

I wasn't sure whether "mørske" was meant as an adjective form of the town name Møre or if it was meant to signify darkness. "The Darkest Alphabet" would be really cool if that was the name, but since it's from Møre, I'd guess the more boring name is the more likely.

An Over-Educated Grunt

11/29/2017 12:31:25 pm

I did say if. "Mørish" is probably a closer translation, but I lost the forest for the trees and then missed the trees. Mørkste or thereabouts would have been darkest. It's been a while since I did anything in Norwegian and I'm a better reader than writer.

curious

11/29/2017 02:11:26 pm

to be fair, I wish someone would step forward and translate this, and Kallstom's work - other wise it is hard to make judgement. Thanks for posting, Jason.

Jim

11/29/2017 11:31:28 am

Great article. If this proves out, down goes stone holes, Halpern's nonsensical maps, some of the nonsense about the Newport tower, and all the other crap associated with the KRS.
I propose that we keep all this alive forever by introducing the phrase "You have been Woltered"

John Sorensen

11/29/2017 01:13:03 pm

Colavito may be nasty, but at least he finds Swedish weather to be charming.

Americanegro

11/29/2017 02:08:28 pm

"The kicker is that Källström found that some of the inscriptions recorded information in an old Swedish standard of measurement that ceased to be used after 1888, meaning that the inscription must have predated the government mandate to change measuring systems."

Logic alert. It doesn't mean that at all. The pervasion is not established, the consequence is not entailed. Even the predicate is not established.

Jason Colavito link

11/29/2017 02:24:15 pm

I wondered about the logic, too, but the argument seems to be that the measuring rod would have been useless for its intended purpose after 1888, so while it is not impossible to have carved one on a whim afterward, it wouldn't have had a function or purpose, rendering it a huge waste of time.

Americanegro

11/29/2017 03:33:10 pm

Respectfully disagree. The British still measure people in stone, horses are measured in hands, racecourses are measured in furlongs, alcoholic beverages are still measured in gills...yet officially they're on the metric system.

Why would Rando Scando let the gummint tell him what yardstick to use when a lot of the stuff he's working with was laid out with the old yardstick?

BigNick

11/29/2017 05:39:55 pm

Rando Scando is hilarious.

Jim

11/29/2017 04:20:04 pm

I see Wolter (who claims to never read Jason's blog) has now posted photos of said article on his last blog article. As per his usual level of incompetence he claims the measuring stick to be found in Norway rather than Sweden.

Americanegro

11/29/2017 05:19:43 pm

On the bright side he has many Muslim coffee cups, I mean friends. Still hasn't fixed that caption though.

"As per his usual level of incompetence he claims the measuring stick to be found in Norway rather than Sweden."

In our Scott's world only a "troll" would point that out. He tells us that the history we've learned is wrong but he hasn't even learned the "wrong" version. In the Waldorf School that is our Scott's mind he gets to make history up.

Scott Wolter is an idiot.

Joe Scales

11/30/2017 01:17:17 pm

Today's another busy day in the lab as well.

Americanegro

11/29/2017 06:51:44 pm

"with the most complex evaluation offered by former television personality Scott F. Wolter, who sees the stone as the cornerstone (so to speak) of a vast conspiracy by Knights Templar, Cistercian monks, and Freemasons to claim nearly all of North America as the hereditary kingdom of Jesus’ descendants through Mary Magdalene."

No quarrel with your characterization of Wolter's theory. What's never made sense to me is what's the point of a "land claim" which I don't buy for a minute in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from anywhere, and buried in the form of a relatively small stone that two people could dump in the water or simply smash. Land is claimed by occupying it. There's a lot of entertainingly crazy talk in our Scott's comments section.

Dunior

11/29/2017 07:53:40 pm

If you view maps of the Rupert's Land and French Louisiana the stone does fall within a demarcation of those divisions. This was also the border of the subsequent Red River Colony from the early 1800's. The Red River Colony was mainly settled in what is today Canada but the borders of it ended in the vicinity of the KRS. The Colony also included Swedish military personnel from Lord Selkirk's cousins The Counts of Hamilton of Sweden. Selkirk basically owned the HBC at that time and started the colony. I recently read a book that discusses this in depth. Red River Colony involvement in placing the KRS does match the date range exposed in the article Jason is referring to so this is possible.

Jim

11/29/2017 09:53:12 pm

Wolters Rebuttal :

First he says he saw the article before, but apparently just looked at the pictures. Ya right, I call BS,,,anyway

Wolter:,,
"I saw this article before and it is great news for the KRS. Even though the Hooked X on the stick isn’t the same with the horizontal foot added to the lower right leg. I only see a couple of other runes in the photo that are found on the KRS and they were commonly known in 1898 such as the “f” and “d” (thorn) runes. Other than those two, none of the other runes I can make out in the photos are found on the KRS. Not sure what the fuss is all about, but even something close to the Hooked X is significant and interesting. "

In his next post he reverses his logic and claims it was copied from the KRS.

Wolter:
"What the author of the article conveniently omits to acknowledge is there is no indication whatsoever of WHEN the carvings were made on the stick. The stick could be hundreds of years old, but even if so, that says nothing about the age of the carvings. In fact, it appears readily obvious the alphabet was copied from the KRS alphabet sometime after 1899 when the first copies of the inscription were published in Scandinavia (February 28, 1899 in Svenska Amerikanska Posten). One obvious mistake in the 1899 article, and on the stick, is the "r"-rune is carved with a closed loop that meets the main horizontal stave in both. ALL of the KRS "r"-runes are open. The truth is in the factual details and the author of this articles missed the tell-tale evidence that blows his entire hoax theory to bits."

Jim

11/29/2017 10:15:28 pm

Of note is the fact that the Svenska Amerikanska Posten was an American newspaper published in Minneapolis, Minnesota between 1885 and 1940,

http://www.mnhs.org/newspapers/swedishamerican/svenska-amerikanska-posten

Americanegro

11/30/2017 12:25:18 am

As our Scott "Dangerman" Wolter, who studied with top experts for half a decade well knows, all the best Swedish newspapers have "Amerikanska" in their name.

Scott Wolter, even with his many Muslim friends, is an idiot.

Only Me

11/29/2017 10:33:20 pm

"The stick could be hundreds of years old, but even if so, that says nothing about the age of the carvings."

"In fact, it appears readily obvious the alphabet was copied from the KRS alphabet sometime after 1899..."

No, Scott, it doesn't. If you can't determine the age of the carvings—only looking at a photo won't allow for that—you can't conclude they were copied from a specific alphabet after a certain date. Keep spinning those megalithic yarns.

Jim

11/29/2017 10:49:01 pm

Who knows with Wolter, but I took your last quote to mean the alphabet was copied from the Svenska Amerikanska Posten.
Which Wolter mistakingly as usual thinks is a Swedish publication.

Jim

11/29/2017 10:56:17 pm

By Swedish publication I meant published in Sweden, it was actually published in Minnesota.

Only Me

11/29/2017 11:28:05 pm

Like I said before, Wolter is delusional.

He can apparently determine whether or not an inscription makes something a genuine artifact by looking at it through a loupe and declaring it old. Now, he can look at a photo and determine the inscription on a wooden rod is modern.

If only his brain was capable of redirecting the energy required for his mental gymnastics towards critical thinking...

Mike Morgan

11/30/2017 04:10:48 am

Well ... if Wolter and his XplrR partner, Pulitzer, can just look at photos of bones sent to them by a fan and declare them to the bones of a giant ....

David Bradbury

11/30/2017 09:02:16 am

Chronologically, what's interesting is that the Haverö stave presents its runerow alongside the same sort of "pigpen" alphabet" shown in the Larsson papers, neatly illustrating how these "secret alphabets" spread together among rural Scandinavians.

Joe Scales

11/30/2017 10:18:23 am

The irony here is that Olaf Ohman was known to have carved runes in wood himself. A link to his childhood, perhaps.

Dunior

11/30/2017 10:25:16 am

The truth is that the stick more resembles the Larson Papers. Scott is totally ignoring the box code that is on the stick as well. When did the box code develop? It also occurred to me that if the strange X represents the letter "A" why is the latin "A" used in the AVM portion of the stone? Wolter insists AVM actually means "ohm?" I'm sure the Templars had many connections to Tibet and India in 1362 (when the order didn't even exist). That is why Scott recently traveled there I'm sure. AVM is the Auspice of Maria yet to this guy it is "ohm?" I'm sure the Cistercians were well versed in New Age eastern symbolism just as it appears our Mr. Wolter is now becoming entrenched. He's appearing at the New Life Expo or some such event soon that is a notorious New Ager and UFO event. This is his crowd it seems. Maybe he and David Wilcock can get together and form a new theory involving UFO's and the KRS.

Americanegro

11/30/2017 12:27:02 pm

I found this illuminating:

http://www.dummies.com/games/cryptograms/easy-masonic-ciphers-to-figure-out/

It's right at Wolter's level because...

Scott Wolter is an idiot.

Jim

11/30/2017 12:00:23 pm

Here is an interesting article from 1920 Written by Rasmus Bjørn Anderson, professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison from 1867-1883 and United States Ambassador to Denmark.
The article speaks of Andrew Anderson, Olaf Ohman and a Mr. Fogalblad.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4630258?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Joe Scales

12/2/2017 02:37:38 pm

Lost in the madness that is Anthony's mental breakdown, was this gem from Wolter:

"As for my hostility, you are right that I get frustrated with skeptics that continue to marginalize and dismiss my geological work with substantive rebuttals or factual evidence."

Truer words may never have been written.

Americanegro

12/2/2017 03:54:59 pm

Good catch! Scott Wolter is truly an idiot.

"S. Heine" (who is not me) calls him out on being a dick and later on our Scott says:

"As for MOST of academia in the humanities disciplines, not all, I have no illusions they will ever take the KRS or my research seriously and you already know the reasons why and it has nothing to do with my personality traits."

I would classify being an idiot as a personality trait, but maybe that's just me.

Our Anthony appears to be going through a manic phase. He's now calling a guy who worked on electronic equipment maintenance in the Navy "Sir Patrick the Navigator".

Patrick Shekleton

12/2/2017 06:27:28 pm

Not a navigator. Not a 'sir.' I saw that this morning, as well - on a break from work.

Jim

12/2/2017 05:28:05 pm

One of Walters best Quotes ever.
I see someone ventured into Anthony's dark cellar and offered a rare response to him. There has been a quiet hush over there since.

Joe Scales

12/2/2017 11:04:28 pm

Anthony is looking more and more like Wolter's "Bucky". I forgot what it was that blew his mind at one point, but he said something to the effect that it would give him something to do, thinking more upon it while at work that night. Let's just hope that public safety is not part of his vocation.

Jim

12/2/2017 11:19:26 pm

Joe, you are a knowledgeable sort of fellow. Do you know if Ohman recarved some of the letters om the KRS ?

". Eyewitnesses at the time of the discovery of the Kensington stone would later testify that Ohman re-chiselled some of the letters, in particular those that had been covered in mud, in order to increase their legibility. This means that the letters showed signs of fresh calcite oxidation, causing great difficulty for any modem scientist to scientifically determine the relative age of the original acts of incisions or carving."

https://www.archaeologybulletin.org/articles/10.5334/bha.22113/

And if so, did Wolter do a side by side comparison of the "fresh" letters to the untampered ones to determine aging variations between the two ?

Joe Scales

12/3/2017 10:18:39 am

Ohman used a nail to clean out some of the mud from the runes by the accounts I've read. Of course Wolter will claim this only helped see the difference with the ones that weren't cleaned out.

But who knows what had been done to that rock in the nearly hundred years before Wolter got a hold of it. That's probably why Wolter continues to rely on Winchell's early findings. But Winchell relied too much on conflicting personal accounts, slanted by Holland acting as an interpreter, and choosing the best fit. He was also the first to opine that the rock must have been buried soon after carving for the runes cut in calcite to appear so fresh. Bad science here, which Wolter continues to this day. Concluding the thing is authentic and only accepting facts working backwards that could make it so. Also bad science because the calcite would have weathered away underground anyway.

Something else in that article you cited that has been misconstrued over the years, and that is the lines on the back of the rock were not caused by tree roots as Wolter maintains. The Swedish geologists questioned Wolter on this, having consulted their own expert in this regard. Wolter falls back on Paul W. Syltie, PhD, who wrote "How Soil Works"; where he mixes gardening and God's love. When Wolter was pressed on whether or not Syltie ever examined the KRS, he was silent. I suppose Wolter just cherry-picked something from Syltie, as he does from others in disciplines he has no knowledge of, and made his own conclusions accordingly.

william m smith

12/3/2017 11:00:35 am

I do not understand runic letters and their modifications over time, however the KRS has a mechanical wear line of .022 in. below the letters on the face and sides of the stone. By comparing this wear with 60 tomb stones with known dates to establish rate of wear in like environment and in like stone structure, the KRS stood upright for 350 years before it fell on its face.
Another support for the authenticity of the KRS is its placement by the surveying process of its time. It is located on a magnetic declination pole line that was established by using a lodestone compass in 1472, however it states an earlier date of 1362 because the placement was a land claim which was being confirmed 110 years after the original claim 65 miles west of the KRS site.

Joe Scales

12/3/2017 12:25:08 pm

" By comparing this wear with 60 tomb stones with known dates to establish rate of wear in like environment and in like stone structure, the KRS stood upright for 350 years before it fell on its face."

It would be nice to see an academic, scientific journal peer review such conclusions and replicate those findings, but that's rather unlikely, no? Also, if the KRS stood upright for 350 years, you'd have never been able to read the rune rows cut into the calcite. The fatal flaw of the hoax, if you will.

Harold Edwards

12/4/2017 12:42:22 pm

There is no wear line on the Kensington Rune Stone. This can easily be observed by viewing the 3-D laser scan made in Sweden in 2003 by the Swedish National Heritage Board. This strips off the surface color which camouflages surface features. What is left is a relief map of the surface of the artifact in fractions of a millimeter. No line is apparent on the stone. Another nice feature of this scan is that it created a virtual artifact, and the back of the stone can be examined. The scratches in the back are not glacial and there are over 100 shallow, sharp percussion marks consistent with a mason's hammer. These are less than a millimeter deep and would have weathered away in a few years. The back is missing sections which is consistent with Holand's account of the stone being used as a stepping stone to Ohman's granary and as an anvil to straiten nails. The Kensington Stone is a hoax created circa 1898.

Jim

12/5/2017 12:52:07 pm

Thanks for that Harold, I was hoping you would weigh in here. Although I don't think any real data will be accepted by some, and it does not explain away Wolters time traveling Jesuit evidence.

William M Smith

12/6/2017 03:44:17 pm

Harold Edwards - The Sweden 3D in 2003 or the Dick Nielson performed later did not include the area 2 inches below the last row of runic letters. If you check the process they used you can see where they placed their reference standards to measure depth by 3-D laser. A Jerry Lugan (sp) and I attempted to provide the Museum with a measurement of this mechanical wear line area to confirm my mechanical depth gage readings which was observed by others when I made a 3D photo computer aid for the museum. You should double check your process before trying to downgrade the mechanical wear line on the KRS. You should also understand the core sample from the back of the stone taken by Scott Wolter of the root line. I am not a supporter of Scott Wolter, however he has completed some good research on the subject.

Harold Edwards

12/6/2017 04:10:17 pm

Once again the 3-D scanning in 2003 and (in 2008 as well) do not show any wear line. These scans are of the whole artifact--360 degrees--so it can be turned and examined in minute detail. No wear line anywhere below the last line of text can be found on the front. You best inspect the evidence yourself. As to the veins on the back. At first glance they look like quartz veins which are ubiquitous in rocks of all types. They are in fact made of chlorite according to Weiblen's microprobe analysis. Chlorite veins are also seen in other rocks. Did Wolter not read Weiblen's report? They are not cause by any root staining. Root staining of that type is a pure figment of Wolter's imagination. Wolter was paid $1000 for SEM work in 2000 to investigate these veins. He has produced no evidence whatsoever as to what they really are. Why not? I know of no examples of such staining in rocks anywhere. Let me remind you I am by training a geologist. If you know of any example, produce it. Ohman claimed one root crossed the back of the stone and one went down the side with the inscription. There are two chlorite veins, not one, so that fact is inconsistent with his description. Also if these veins were due to root staining there should be one or more such stains down the side face. None is present--not even hints at the edge between the back and side face. Finally, roots are known to etch marble antiquities that have been dug up. These leave a net-like pattern on the surface of the marble. This feature is used as proof to tell them apart from fakes. There are no etch marks on the calcite layer on the KRS. This artifact was never buried for any length of time. The Kensington Stone is a FAKE period!

Joe Scales

12/6/2017 04:29:09 pm

"I am not a supporter of Scott Wolter, however he has completed some good research on the subject."

Scott Wolter has used the Kensington Rune Stone for his own financial gain, producing no peer reviewed science nor credible historic providence since he jumped onboard. His arguments are riddled with fallacy, wholly unconvincing and often downright idiotic. They are catered to fool idiots, get himself on television and sell books not worth the paper they're printed on. He is a poisoner of the well of knowledge.

Early on, many in academia gave him the benefit of the doubt based solely upon the reputation of his petrography work in regard to building materials. To date, they have all either rebuked or disassociated themselves from him. He remains on the fringe with the other liars and frauds, where he belongs. History will not be kind to him, if he is not outright forgotten.

David Bradbury

12/6/2017 05:05:12 pm

William M. Smith- are you by any chance closely related to Inger E. Johansson?
http://www.pastpresented.ukart.com/primesauce/

Americanegro

12/15/2017 02:32:00 pm

Harold,

THE TOOTHPICK HAS SPOKEN. There is a wear line 1/45th of an inch in depth and .75" in width. It is settled science, proven by TAKING PICTURES FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES.

I hope you will join us friend. Are you of the body? Become one with us. Become one with the toothpick.

Americanegro

12/3/2017 12:13:20 pm

"It is located on a magnetic declination pole line that was established by using a lodestone compass in 1472"

a. Where do you get 1472 from?

b. Isn't most of the surface of the planet "on a magnetic declination pole line"? What significance are you trying to convey?

Jim

12/3/2017 01:07:14 pm

Oh no, here we go with the Portuguese joining the Templars, Cistercians and the Jesuits pre Columbian party in America. Where they mined magnetite from Gunns stoneholes to make lodestone compasses.

Americanegro

12/3/2017 01:59:25 pm

c. Also ".022 in." seems unbelievably precise. Of course it's 1/45.454545454545... of an inch. Now 366 X .022 is 8.052 and as we know 8 is a sacred number to the Goddess.

william m smith

12/3/2017 05:35:38 pm

All points on the earth are on a magnetic pole line that is isometric and goes from pole to pole. At the latitude of the KRS this pole lines drift to the east at a rate of about 50 miles per 100 years. Today the zero magnetic declination (pole line) is located 275 miles east of the KRS site. 65 miles to the west of the current KRS site is a group of triangle mooring holes in stone. This is the original location of the KRS in 1362. I do not link any research to Templars and do not support the non peer reviewed work of Wolter.

Jim

12/3/2017 05:56:42 pm

Magnetic declination is totally unpredictable. It goes back and forth east to west and will change direction, west to east at no predictable time. It also moves at random and varying speeds. It is completely unpredictable and without historical records we simply cannot know what it was in the fifteenth century or earlier.

Americanegro

12/3/2017 09:10:58 pm

Oh, William H. Smith, it's like you don't know what "magnetic declination" means.

You will no doubt define for us what "isometric" in this context means?

"All points on the earth are on a magnetic pole line that is isometric and goes from pole to pole."

BUT YOU SAIDED "A MAGNETIC DECLINATION POLE LINE".

You're going to have to 'splain that to me, Lucy, because the magnetic poles and the poles are not at the same places. Taking your statement as written, how does being "located on a magnetic declination pole line" distinguish it from any other point on the surface of the planet?

"At the latitude of the KRS this pole lines drift to the east at a rate of about 50 miles per 100 years."

"drift"? Who told you to say "drift"? AT BEST you can say "have drifted". (I will accept "this pole lines" as a typo)

Does this have to do with your firing?

william m smith

12/3/2017 11:45:42 pm

Magnetic declination is very predicable - http://www.magnetic-declination.com/what-is-magnetic-declination.php. It is also used to date historical sites whit a known magnetic declination when the site was established. Only 4 pole lines on the earth have a zero declination. In 1472 one of these lines was in Kensington Minn. 370 leagues to the east was another pole line of 17 degrees west. It is identified by a triangle stone at the top of the Newport Tower which is the builders mark that dates the tower and supports the date established in 2009 by Jan Barstad (last academic archaeologist working at the site. Do not let your alligator mouth get ahead of your humming bird ass if you do not know what you are talking about.

Only Me

12/4/2017 12:30:08 am

William: "At the latitude of the KRS this pole lines drift to the east at a rate of about 50 miles per 100 years."

From the linked website provided by William:

"The magnetic declination in a given area will change slowly over time, possibly as much as 2-25 degrees every hundred years or so, depending upon how far from the magnetic poles it is."

Jim: "Magnetic declination is totally unpredictable."

William: "Magnetic declination is very predicable"

From the linked website provided by William:

"Complex fluid motion in the outer core of the Earth (the molten metallic region that lies from 2800 to 5000 km below the Earth's surface) causes the magnetic field to change slowly with time. This change is known as secular variation."

"... secular variation also changes with time in an unpredictable manner."

>How can we calculate declination at any given place?<

"One way would be to use declination maps. Unfortunately because of secular variation, declination values are constantly changing. When printed maps were the only way of getting this information, the declination values were somewhat out of date by the time the maps got to the general public."

Jim

12/4/2017 12:40:18 am

Nonsense

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwig1OXuze_XAhXp5YMKHRcBBTUQFgg3MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magnetic-declination.com%2Fwhat-is-magnetic-declination.php&usg=AOvVaw10uM6KzI05zaAYhbHSB_wi

"The magnetic declination in a given area will change slowly over time, POSSIBLY AS MUCH AS 2-25 DEGREES EVERY HUNDRED YEARS OR SO, depending upon how far from the magnetic poles it is. Complex fluid motion in the outer core of the Earth (the molten metallic region that lies from 2800 to 5000 km below the Earth's surface) causes the magnetic field to change slowly with time. This change is known as secular variation. Because of secular variation, declination values shown on old topographic, marine and aeronautical charts need to be updated if they are to be used without large errors. Unfortunately, the annual change corrections given on most of these maps cannot be applied reliably if the maps are more than a few years old SINCE THE SECULAR VARIATION ALSO
CHANGES WITH TIME WITH AN UNPREDICTABLE MANNER."

http://geomag.nrcan.gc.ca/mag_fld/sec-en.php

"The Earth's magnetic field is slowly changing on time scales that range from years to millennia. Such changes are referred to as secular variation. Secular variation was FIRST RECOGNIZED IN 1634 WHEN Gellibrand compared magnetic declination observations he had made at London with earlier observations. The observations of declination made at London over the years constitute one of the best records of secular variation."

"The figure shows that declination has changed from approximately 10° E in the late 16th century to 25° W in the early 19th century before returning to a current value of about 3° W."

Only Me

12/4/2017 01:34:36 am

To further clarify the article's statement about magnetic declination varying from 2-25 degrees per hundred years, a single degree of latitude is equal to 68.7 statute miles. A statute mile is 5,280 feet.

William: "All points on the earth are on a magnetic pole line that is isometric and goes from pole to pole. At the latitude of the KRS this pole lines drift to the east at a rate of about 50 miles per 100 years. Today the zero magnetic declination (pole line) is located 275 miles east of the KRS site." This is a shift of less than one degree per century. It would also take 550 years for this line to be 275 miles east of the KRS.

Degrees to miles calculator:

http://msi.nga.mil/msisitecontent/staticfiles/calculators/degree.html

Americanegro

12/4/2017 02:09:13 am

To paraphrase and old rascal I once met in an opium fever "C'mon fellas! Teacher's got hisself a city boy!" Of course we were talking about pool, yes, that's the ticket.

Oh, William H. Smith.

"Magnetic declination is very predicable - "

"Only 4 pole lines on the earth have a zero declination."

Because you seem like someone who makes stuff up I'm going to ask you to prove that.

"n 1472 one of these lines was in Kensington Minn. 370 leagues to the east was another pole line of 17 degrees west. It is identified by a triangle stone at the top of the Newport Tower which is the builders mark that dates the tower and supports the date established in 2009 by Jan Barstad (last academic archaeologist working at the site."

a. how do you know what the situation was in 1472?
b. "leagues"? Are we hobbits?
c. stuff about triangle stone dismissed because nonsense

"Do not let your alligator mouth get ahead of your humming bird ass if you do not know what you are talking about."

d. smart money says you're not in a position to do anything about it. Just between you and me, sounding supergay there.

Jim

12/4/2017 02:12:26 am

Only Me,,, William Smith believes the Newport Tower was built by the Portuguese pre Columbus and that a line from a rock in the top of the tower through a window dates the tower construction using declination as the dating method. The line does not even go through the center of the tower as one would use a compass, just slices across an arc.
I tried the same method and have proven that the Phoenicians built the Newport Tower.

Only Me

12/4/2017 02:35:24 am

Jim, that's the least of his claims. Using the figures William provided, his pole line shift of 50 miles per century = .5 miles per year. 1472 was 545 years ago, or a shift of 272.5 miles. The numbers show his pole line is off by 2.5 miles. That's kind of important if you're going to point to an exact spot as where the pole line was established.

Jim

12/4/2017 03:50:07 am

I will make one last response to William, copied and pasted from Andy Whites blog from over a year ago. Same nonsense, same argument even the exact same insult. ( Do not let your alligator mouth get ahead of your humming bird ass)

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog/calcite-weathering-and-the-age-of-the-kensington-rune-stone-inscription-lightning-post

" You cannot use declination as a dating method !!! Declination changes over time and often returns to the same degree.
Declination of Newport today 14w
Declination of Newport 1975 14w
Declination of Newport1950 14w "

Here is the link to the Treaty of Tordesillas, scroll down for the English translation. Its section 3 that William will totally misinterpret soon.

http://www.sealegacy.com/pdf%20files/06%20-%20Tratado%20De%20Tordesilhas.pdf

Americanegro

12/4/2017 10:37:02 pm

"All points on the earth are on a magnetic pole line that is isometric and goes from pole to pole."

NO, Emm Effer (because I am under a directive from Jason not to use bad words). You have not explained what "isometric" means in this context and you confirm that all points on the surface of the earth are between the North Pole and the South Pole.

Please explain why I should not start a GoFundMe to finance smothering you because you seem like a retard?

Jim

12/3/2017 05:28:22 pm

Did Martians plant the Kensington Runestone ?

Scroll up a page or two to see the article on the KRS. (1898 And After: The Rune Stone) It contains anecdotes by a number of people who seem to have known about the hoax, The tool shop operator in Alexandria, who sold chisels to two Swedes who were to fabricate a runestone, Victor Setterlund
who says Fogelblad told Setterlunds father that he had carved a runestone, etc. etc. etc.
Oh and for the Martian connetcion, scroll up one more page to "1897 Martians Over Minnesota",,,,coincidence ? I think not !

https://books.google.ca/books?id=SP6JmM70J8cC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=Winchell+kRS+carve+h&source=bl&ots=oGlMqtc37P&sig=v7qEA2cZ_pf_ynUkKRTW4HOaI68&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYouH94e7XAhUbHGMKHT7IDp8Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Winchell%20kRS%20carve%20h&f=false

William M Smith

12/4/2017 08:25:45 am

Only Me - You can determine what the magnetic declination is or was at any location on the earth by using a magnetic declination calculator (Found on the web). All you need is the Lat.and Long. of the location of interest. Most calculators only address dates from 1590 until present, however magnetic declination was understood in 1250 in Arabia. It was introduced to the Western European in the 1300s. From this technology, the Portuguese were able to lead discovery of new lands because of their ability to convert magnetic declination into degrees of longitude on a common latitude line.
Jim has made a few mistakes in his postings, one he spelled my name wrong, two - I did not say a triangle stone aligned with any window in the Newport Tower. The Newport Tower has a triangle stone that due to the surrounding stones has been specifically placed at 17 degrees west of true north. This stone placement is called the builders mark or signature which was common for master stone workers (NOT TEMPLARS OR MASONS). It was located by placing a lodestone compass in the south window sill where alignment marks still exist. In addition compass parts used at the tower are located in the local historical society museum which are from the 1948 Godfrey dig. For the record, the Newport Tower and the Kensington Rune Stone are located on pole lines 370 leagues apart for land claim for Denmark and Portugal. This is recorded in the Portuguese translation of the 1494 treaty between Spain and Portugal, however the English translation is politicaly modified to fit the English. I am sure the supporters of Scott Wolter group will not agree with my work because it does not support their findings.

Only Me

12/4/2017 12:18:59 pm

William, all I'm reading are the same claims you've been making since first posting to this blog years ago.

Linking to your own written work and saying it was peer reviewed is, frankly, a dishonest appeal to authority on your part. You've intentionally ignored every instance where it was pointed out how you misinterpreted the Treaty of Tordesillas, because, hey, you're an engineer of 30+ years experience!

Ancient sailors aware of magnetic declination? Sure. Secular variation? No.

"From this technology, the Portuguese were able to lead discovery of new lands because of their ability to convert magnetic declination into degrees of longitude on a common latitude line."

Bold claim. You made it, now prove it. Preferably with evidence that isn't derived from your self-published papers. By the way, you do understand you're arguing over what you claim is a smokehouse for fish? And that's hilarious to me.

Americanegro

12/4/2017 12:19:21 pm

So you're telling us that in 1494 there were Europeans 1,000 miles (we are not hobbits!) inland in North America, that this is written down, but this fact has been kept from us.

THAT'S THE OPENING OF EVERY EPISODE OF AMERICA UNEARTHED.

Are you asking us to believe you read 15th Century Portuguese?

You seem congenitally unable to post a link, but do you suppose you might have completely (in a totally, totally sane way) have misunderstood the Treaty of Tordesillas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

Americanegro

12/4/2017 12:22:49 pm

1250, another remarkably precise date. Still waiting to hear about 1472.

Americanegro

12/4/2017 12:35:22 pm

"In addition compass parts used at the tower are located in the local historical society museum which are from the 1948 Godfrey dig."

Was it traditional in 1472 to strew compass parts about a building site after the compassing was done? For anyone with even the slightest love of tools that makes no sense at all.

David Bradbury

12/4/2017 02:35:10 pm

"... pole lines 370 leagues apart for land claim for Denmark and Portugal. This is recorded in the Portuguese translation of the 1494 treaty between Spain and Portugal, "
No. As Americanegro suggests, you have completely misunderstood the Treaty of Tordesillas. There is one 370-league line referred to in the treaty:
"se haga é señale por el dicho mar Océano una raya, ó línea dereche de polo á polo, convien á saber, del polo ártico al polo antártico, que es de Norte á Sul, la qual raya ó linea se aya de dar, é dé derecha, como dicho es, á trecientas é setanta leguas de las islas del Cabo Verde, hácia la parte del Poniente"
That is a line from Pole to Pole, 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde islands (which, apparently, is about where Columbus found on his 1492 voyage that magnetic south corresponded with south as defined by the Sun's highest point in the sky, giving a magnetic declination of zero). All subsequent "370 leagues" references in the treaty are to that same line, typically in the format: "las dichas trecientas é setanta leguas de las dichas islas del Cabo Verde". There are no lines 370 leagues apart.

William Smith

12/4/2017 08:34:01 pm

It is obvious you did not read all of chapter. 370 leagues west of Cape Verde is a pole line going from pole to pole. In 1472 this line was the same line as the Newport Tower at 17 degrees magnetic declination. This line was to be followed to land fall where a tower would mark the east boundary. From this tower a marker was to be placed (same distance as above) 370 leagues west of this tower.
Attached is the complete chapter three of the treaty.
3.] Item, in order that the said line or bound of the said division may be made straight and as nearly as possible the said distance of three hundred and seventy leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands, as hereinbefore stated, the said representatives of both the said parties agree and assent that within the ten months immediately following the date of this treaty their said constituent lords shall dispatch two or four caravels, namely, one or two by each one of them, a greater or less number, as they may mutually consider necessary. These vessels shall meet at the Grand Canary Island during this time, and each one of the said parties shall send certain persons in them, to wit, pilots, astrologers, sailors, and any others they may deem desirable. But there must be as many on one side as on the other, and certain of the said pilots, astrologers, sailors, and others of those sent by the said King and Queen of Castile, Aragon, etc., and who are experienced, shall embark in the ships of the said King of Portugal and the Algarves; in like manner certain of the said persons sent by the said King of Portugal shall embark in the ship or ships of the said King and Queen of Castile, Aragon, etc.; a like number in each case, so that they may jointly study and examine to better advantage the sea, courses, winds, and the degrees of the sun or of north latitude, and lay out the leagues aforesaid, in order that, in determining the line and boundary, all sent and empowered by both the said parties in the said vessels, shall jointly concur. These said vessels shall continue their course together to the said Cape Verde Islands, from whence they shall lay a direct course to the west, to the distance
of the said three hundred and seventy degrees, measured as the said persons shall agree, and measured without prejudice to the said parties. When this point is reached, such point will constitute the place and mark for measuring degrees of the sun or of north latitude either by daily runs measured in leagues, or in any other manner that shall mutually be deemed better. This said line shall be drawn north and south as aforesaid, from the said Arctic pole to the said Antarctic pole. And when this line has been determined as above said, those sent by each of the aforesaid parties, to whom each one of the said parties must delegate his own authority and power, to determine the said mark and bound, shall draw up a writing concerning it and affix thereto their signatures. And when determined by the mutual consent of all of them, this line shall be considered as a perpetual mark and bound, in such wise that the said parties, or either of them, or their future successors, shall be unable to deny it, or erase or remove it, at any time or in any manner whatsoever. And should, perchance, the said line and bound from pole to pole, as aforesaid, intersect any island or mainland, at the first point of such intersection of such island or mainland by the said line, some kind of mark or tower shall be erected, and a succession of similar marks shall be erected in a straight line from such mark or tower, in a line identical with the above-mentioned bound. These marks shall separate those portions of such land belonging to each one of the said parties; and the subjects of the said parties shall not dare, on either side, to enter the territory of the other, by crossing the said mark or bound in such island or mainland.

Only Me

12/4/2017 09:04:52 pm

"This said line shall be drawn NORTH AND SOUTH as aforesaid, from the said Arctic pole to the said Antarctic pole."

"And should, perchance, the said line and bound from pole to pole, as aforesaid, intersect any island or mainland, at the first point of such intersection of such island or mainland by the said line, some kind of mark or tower shall be erected, and a
SUCCESSION OF SIMILAR MARKS shall be erected in A STRAIGHT LINE from such mark or tower, IN A LINE IDENTICAL WITH THE ABOVE-MENTIONED BOUND."

North and south, William. Not east and west. The Newport Tower is west of the demarcation line, it doesn't mark the first point of intersection and therefore cannot serve as a marker. Once again, you misinterpret what the treaty actually says. Of course, I already know you'll continue to ignore this inconvenient fact.

William M Smith

12/5/2017 12:01:44 am

Magnetic north and magnetic south is an isometric line that existed in 1472 at the Newport Tower on the 41 latitude and also existed just off of Cape Verde Islands. 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island was a magnetic declination line that had zero magnetic declination, this north and south magnetic line also went through Kensington Minn at the 46 latitude. These two magnetic isometric lines are pole lines that are 370 leagues apart (1110 miles). That is the pole line distance between the tower and the marker identified in the 1494 treaty. The west isometric pole line also gave Portugal an eastern portion of South America.

Only Me

12/5/2017 12:36:20 am

Still won't admit you're wrong, eh?

The demarcation line is 370 leagues west of the Canary Islands, to be determined by "measuring degrees of the sun or of north latitude either by daily runs measured in leagues, or in any other manner that shall mutually be deemed better" per the treaty. No mention of magnetic declination, magnetic north/south or pole lines.

370 leagues = 1,277.36519 miles
Distance from Newport, Rhode Island to the Canary Islands- 3,182 miles

The demarcation line is 1,905 miles east of Newport. THAT'S why Portugal had claim to the eastern part of South America. THAT'S why the Newport Tower wasn't erected to mark the boundary between Spanish and Portuguese lands.

I really think you should stop now.

Jim

12/5/2017 01:03:55 am

Hahahahah,,,, I just have to interject,,,,

William : " 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island was a magnetic declination line that had zero magnetic declination, this north and south magnetic line also went through Kensington Minn at the 46 latitude. These two magnetic isometric lines are pole lines that are 370 leagues apart (1110 miles). "

So, let me get this straight,,,,the line that is 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island is the same line that goes through Kensington Minn, and that same single line is somehow 2 lines that are 1110 miles apart.,,,,,,,,,,,,am I missing something ?

Only Me

12/5/2017 01:45:26 am

Jim, William is saying a north-south magnetic pole line intersected at the location of the Newport Tower with the 41 degree line of latitude. Another such pole line intersected at Kensington, Minnesota with the 46 degree line of latitude. The distance between both north-south lines is 1,110 miles.

Problem 1)
He's still misrepresenting the clear language of the treaty that stated both towers and markers would be aligned north to south, just like the demarcation line.

Problem 2)
He isn't good at basic math.

Problem 3)
He isn't good at reading comprehension.

Problem 4)
He's basically arguing for knowledge and application of longitude via magnetic pole lines.

Jim

12/5/2017 03:36:18 am

Only Me, What he is trying yo say I am not sure, but

Sentence 1 ,,,,"Magnetic north and magnetic south is an isometric line that existed in 1472 at the Newport Tower on the 41 latitude and also existed just off of Cape Verde Islands."

Is an, not are two
So basically the Cape Verde Islands and the Newport Tower are approximately on the same on the same line.

Sentence 2,,,, " 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island was a magnetic declination line that had zero magnetic declination, this north and south magnetic line also went through Kensington Minn at the 46 latitude."

You see what I am saying ?,, anyway
The only way to arrive at Newport from 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island is to follow a north compass bearing with a western magnetic declination error.
When you go 370 leagues west of Newport using this error you will locate your land marker 370 leagues distance in a west southwest direction. Kensington is west northwest !!
I am not going back to reread the old nonsense from Andys blog, but I think the main problem is this:
These numbskulls who use google earth to draw long lines on the globe like to present this as accurate data. It is not. I just tried a little experiment, I had drawn a line roughly from Newport tower to Kensington, so I continued this west northwest line onwards. Where I should have ended up in the USSR or at least Northern Japan, I ended up on a sunny warm beach in Australia !!!
I am pretty sure William is using google earths ruler as an instrument to make his calculations and it is horribly inaccurate, especially over long distances.

William M Smith

12/5/2017 10:38:00 am

Jim - You seem to have grasp what I have stated in your last post. The location of the Danish and Portugal land claim as I translate the treaty and supported by a copper disk (map) from a lodestone compass found in New York. At Cape Verde follow this 17 degree isometric line north west until land fall at Newport R.I. (build a tower and mark it with the builders mark on top with a triangle stone 17 degrees west of true north), Then travel west via Hudson Bay and locate the zero magnetic declination at Kensington to place the marker for the western boundary. (this pole line is the same line as the line 370 leagues west of Cape Verde only on a different latitude). As for my math - I used 3 miles as one league. Their is a variance between the distance of a league, however 3 miles is a good average. A league was originally established by the average speed a marching Roman would walk in one hour over level smooth ground. It is also the rate of work used today in Industrial Engineering standards for time study. It was the distance early navigators used to measure line of sight to the land by allowing for the curvature of the earth. (At 3 miles distance you could not see a mans head if he was under 6 feet tall or the bottom 6 feet of a ship 3 miles away). Some people on this site have a different agenda than I. I find it best to ignore them because they are using the same tactics as Scott Wolter by name calling and allowing their alligator mouth to get ahead of their humming bird ass. They do not change and are only trying to kill the messenger. My research of 40 years for the most part is peer reviewed and copyrighted. If you look at the line of post on this subject it is obvious why any new site under study should not be posted so these armchair experts can shoot the messenger. No need to respond, however thanks for your post.

Joe Scales

12/5/2017 11:06:05 am

"My research of 40 years for the most part is peer reviewed..."

You mean by other imbeciles?

Jim

12/5/2017 12:02:57 pm

William,,,,,I have a grasp of the English language, your concepts, not so much. The Hudson Bay, ,,,, have you completely lost it ? Did they put runners on their ships to sail across a frozen Hudson Bay ? My advice, scrap all your research and start over !
Due to the differences in latitude and longitude all your google earth line drawing data is garbage. You cannot draw a straight east west line on google earth except at the Equator. In the Northern Hemisphere a line drawn will always swing to a southerly direction.
Try drawing a straight east west line on the portion of the 49th parallel that borders the US and Canada, it cannot be done ! Now continue that straight line for some distance and you will see it starting to head in a southerly direction. The longer the line the more the error.
Back to work for you.

David Bradbury

12/5/2017 01:29:48 pm

"A league was originally established by the average speed a marching Roman would walk in one hour over level smooth ground. It is also ..."
Do you have some sort of compulsion to avoid telling the truth?

William M Smith

12/5/2017 01:32:09 pm

For what it is worth - The Hudson Straight is free of ice at least 3 months of the year. The Neilson and Red river gets you just west of Kensington. The east and west pole lines were established by reading the magnetic declination in 1472. On each of these pole lines a land claim was placed. The Newport Tower on the east line and the KRS on the west pole line. These two points on these pole lines established the true north and South Pole lines by the use of the mid day sun and a double gnomon on the lodestone compass face. I will not call you names or uneducated because you seem to be the self appointed experts just like you have identified Scott Wolter. Did you ever stop and think that this site may not exist if you had no one to respond to your slanderish manner. Tell the map makers that a straight line with miles on a map will not work.

Only Me

12/5/2017 02:01:23 pm

"The location of the Danish and Portugal land claim as I translate the treaty and supported by a copper disk (map) from a lodestone compass found in New York."

Sounds a lot like the copper disc William D. Jackson claims to have found and promoted by Richard Moats as a navigation aid.

"My research of 40 years for the most part is peer reviewed..."

For the most part? So, there is room for error? Also, appeal to authority fallacy.

"armchair experts" "self appointed experts"

You mad, bro?

"Did you ever stop and think that this site may not exist if you had no one to respond to your slanderish manner."

If this site didn't exist, no one would know who you are or the nonsense you're peddling. You can't claim victim status, William. Your hypotheses are being criticized and you can't take it. No one here is expected to ignore the flaws in your ideas or how you react when challenged.

"If you look at the line of post on this subject it is obvious why any new site under study should not be posted so these armchair experts can shoot the messenger."

The problems are the messenger AND his message.

Jim

12/5/2017 02:34:23 pm

William,,,, Are you suggesting that a party sailed from the Canaries to the Cape Verde islands then sailed west 370 leagues, sailed north to Newport, built a tower, sailed thousands of miles to the Hudson bay built small enough boats to navigate the rivers to Minnesota from scant stunted northern trees, found a route to Kensington from the hundreds of different rivers, tributaries, lakes and waterways available, wandered over to the future Ohman farm and carved a stone (in Norse runes no less), returned to the Hudson bay and found that it was still ice free with only a three month window ?
Why did they establish the tower in 1472 for a treaty that was not made until 1494 ?
Are you aware that the voyage spoken of in the treaty to mark the boundary 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde islands never took place ?

"The Treaty of Tordesillas only specified the line of demarcation in leagues from the Cape Verde Islands. It did not specify the line in degrees, nor did it identify the specific island or the specific length of its league. Instead, the treaty stated that these matters were to be settled by a joint voyage which never occurred. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

Only Me

12/5/2017 02:49:48 pm

William: "As for my math - I used 3 miles as one league. Their is a variance between the distance of a league, however 3 miles is a good average. A league was originally established by the average speed a marching Roman would walk in one hour over level smooth ground."

The Romans had a defined measurement for the league: the leuga, or Gallic league. It's equal to 1.379 modern miles. Rounding up to 1.4, 370 leagues would equals 518 miles.

From 1400 to 1600, Spain used the legua nautica. Before Portugal became the second nation to adopt the metric system in 1814, it used the légua de 18 ao grau (league of 18 to the degree) and the légua de 20 ao grau (league of 20 to the degree).

There is no justification for either Spain or Portugal to use an obsolete unit of measurement to define how a demarcation line was to be determined in the Treaty of Tordesillas.

Americanegro

12/5/2017 03:12:10 pm

This is directed at you William H. Smith.

The Hudson Strait has nothing to do with the present discussion you incredibly stupid mental patient.

Jim

12/5/2017 04:07:29 pm

Only Me, gee whiz, so if you measured in Portuguese leagues, and 370 leagues equals 1110 miles at the Cape Verde Islands latitude, than 370 leagues east from the Newport tower would be roughly 875 miles. But, but, but,,,,,that's nowhere near where the runestone was found !

Only Me

12/5/2017 04:24:06 pm

You know what? I screwed up. I originally said the following:

"The demarcation line is 370 leagues west of the Canary Islands..."

I just realized my mistake. The demarcation line is 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands. Unfortunately, this mistake doesn't help William's argument.

Distance from Newport, Rhode Island to the Cape Verde Islands- 3,364 miles

Distance from Kensington, Minnesota to the Cape Verde Islands- 4,613 miles

I seriously doubt a north-south magnetic pole line 1,277 miles west of Cape Verde would also pass through Kensington, which is 3,386 miles further west.

Jim

12/5/2017 04:53:01 pm

It might, if the magnetic north pole was located in Japan in1474.

William M Smith

12/4/2017 10:12:23 am

The following link is to a copyrighted paper which is user friendly and has over 120 citations to support the facts of find. Much of the paper has been peer reviewed and will in most cases explain a different history from what is posted on the history
.Chanel.https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive

William M Smith

12/4/2017 10:27:07 am

This link may be easier to download for latest on subject information. MASTER809.pdf

William M Smith

12/4/2017 12:16:11 pm

When you copy and paste the link in the search bar you will get to the KRS site file section. Scroll down the files until you find my name on second page of files.Open file and allow time for viewing. It is over 120 slides and 120 citations. Go to page 27 or slide 27 and view the builders mark or click on the citation and view the working model of the Newport Tower when all the beams and floors as well as the atrium was in place in 1472. I hope serious folks make comments as a new site north of the Tower has a lot of additional support for stone triangle holes and their connection to the lodestone compass as well as a recording of magnetic declination in 1472. This site is on private property and will be released after the owner provides permission.

Joe Scales

12/4/2017 12:55:21 pm

" I hope serious folks make comments as a new site north of the Tower has a lot of additional support for stone triangle holes and their connection to the lodestone compass as well as a recording of magnetic declination in 1472."

Sorry dude. Picking points on a globe that are related only in your mind's eye and somehow linking them as if it was all meant to be... is complete bullshit. Not even worth trying to walk you through it. You'll never get it. You're just not equipped.

Americanegro

12/4/2017 06:07:26 pm

"When you copy and paste the link in the search bar you will get to the KRS site file section."

No, that is simply not true you stupid idiot.

Here's today's challenge: post a link that works.

It's a courtesy thing, as another idiot once said

William H. Smith is an idiot.

Mike Morgan

12/4/2017 02:08:47 pm

Interrupting the Newport Tower/KRS connection conversation for a moment for a “Whatcha talkin bout Willis?” utterance from Wolter.

Scott Wolter December 3, 2017 at 7:07 PM
"I can Google just fine as I'm sure our readers can, but it seems appropriate to cite the reference when you make claim. It’s a courtesy thing."

Really? REALLY??????

Americanegro

12/4/2017 02:40:40 pm

Sorry, I can't resist.

Scott Wolter is an idiot.

Jim

12/4/2017 03:38:26 pm

Wolter Quotes,,,,,,

"Combine this with a lack of understanding of proper scientific method and you have a huge mess."

" Can you cite a source of this rumor?"

"Your complete lack of objectivity is astounding"

"I think you need to do a little reading to get background information,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I would start with Alan Butler’s book"

And of course this one, already quoted by Joe Scales but bears repeating.

"As for my hostility, you are right that I get frustrated with skeptics that continue to marginalize and dismiss my geological work with substantive rebuttals or factual evidence."

In all fairness to Wolter, most of his stuff he just makes up, so there are no sources to be cited.

Joe Scales

12/4/2017 09:29:18 pm

"Combine this with a lack of understanding of proper scientific method and you have a huge mess."

That could be the forward to any one of Wolter's books.

Jim

12/4/2017 05:38:43 pm

Although Wolter does not do it much, his partner Pulitzer is a citing virtuoso. When it comes to citationating Pulitzer is a machine, I tells ya ! And you can cite me on that !

https://jovanhuttonpulitzer.org/

Example of citation # 277

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_pages

Hahahahaha

Jim

12/4/2017 06:02:47 pm

Citation # 395

http://ww8.freeuninstallguide.com/

Citation # 346

http://www.jiad.org/article12.html

I can't stop laughing

Americanegro

12/4/2017 07:23:56 pm

Or, to put it in the language of Wolter's favorite tribe of Injuns, the Miqmaq ''''' ( distribute the apostrophes as you see fit):

"Me make um claim."

It cannot be said often enough:

Scott Wolter is an idiot,

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 08:47:05 am

Line draw on Google Earth defaults to Great Circle mapping. In this convention, only a 0/180 deg line draws accurately. To snap a GC line to a thumb line presentation use an outlined, filled polygon. Note that this is for presentation only. Use the "Movable Type Scripts" web app for thumb line bearing and end points. Google and the latter-mentioned app use slightly different values for Earth radius, so a minor offset presents. Mapping stuff on GE is a valid methodology, but one has to understand the limitations of the tool - especially wrt the line draw.

Jim

12/5/2017 01:31:51 pm

Patrick, do you have any links to information describing the accuracy of google earth in this regard ? I can't find much, only GEs disclaimer. Thanks

"Google makes no claims as to the accuracy of the coordinates in Google Earth. These are provided for entertainment only and should not be used for any navigational or other purpose requiring any accuracy whatsoever."

https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/95133/accuracy-of-ruler-in-google-earth-pro

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 03:24:42 pm

NP, Jim. Tonight after work, Pacific time zone.

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 09:23:12 pm

Jim,
Chris Veness's formulas use a mean radius of 6371 km (http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html). He gives that value directly on his web site. Google Earth uses a value of 6378.137 km; "Google appears to be using the value of 6378.13 km, basing on the circumference indicated in this other Stack Exchange answer." (https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/220185/correct-planet-radius-for-calculating-metres-per-pixel).

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 09:42:45 pm

Jim, your question was directed at "accuracy" and I didn't answer it in my other replies. I am not surprised at the disclaimer...that is likely a fairly standard, legal type disclaimer. Comparing a scattering of handheld GPS coordinate points throughout New England to a visual pin drop on Google Earth has been pretty accurate. I think most handheld GPS units are down to a 10 foot resolution provided you have multiple satellites. Google Earth pics are "stitched" onto the landscape...it is not uncommon to find a 20-30 foot variance between the stitched photos on different dates (Google Earth Pro historical aerials). I use Chris Veness's application for rhumb line draw then I transfer the end point onto Google Earth, so basically I used GE for visual presentation. Given that the modeling systems have a circumference delta of 44.842 km over the 360 degree Earth, we have a model-induced offset, per degree, of 0.12456111111111111111111111111111 km (or 408.6650627004957 ft/deg). These are just general things to know if one is using these two applications for geodetic modeling.

Jim

12/5/2017 10:45:09 pm

Thanks for the reply Patrick. Not much out there on this, one sees so many wild claims from people using google earth to draw long distance lines in an attempt to make a connection between ancient old world sites and American sites. The fallacy in this is staggering. As I mentioned earlier If you make a line starting at the eastern end of the 49th parallel, where it is the Can./ US border pass over the western end of same, and continue on the line leads to Australia. Logic would tell us the line should go to the 49th parallel, just north of Japan, but that is not the case. The curvature of the earth and our latitude measuring system plays some wild tricks on those using google earth.

Americanegro

12/5/2017 11:10:08 pm

"The fallacy in this is staggering. As I mentioned earlier If you make a line starting at the eastern end of the 49th parallel"

No. Stop. Stop the madness. The 49th parallel you're talking about is LATITUDE. THERE IS NO EASTERN END TO IT. It's a circle you idiot. Similarly there is no such thing as "the eastern end" of a line of longitude.

You have dishonored this blog, you have dishonored Jason, and you have dishonored me. I am now making a grunting Oriental sound. You would not like me when I make a grunting Oriental sound.

Jim

12/5/2017 11:21:41 pm

I will spell it out for those that have a problem with common sense or a learning disability. If you start at the easternmost point of the 49th parallel that is part of the Canada, US border pass over the western end of the same Canada US border, and continue on the line leads to Australia.

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 11:24:55 pm

Yeah, I see them all the time (the wild claims). It makes me cringe. I was a couple months in on what I research, happy as a claim that my GE lines were developing so well - too well - when I realized that GE line draw was a complete fallacy. I threw that research away and started over. Any ancient/medieval/whatever navigation was done using objects on the horizon (or in the celestial sphere). Rhumb lines. Same as what the portolan maps used. After a certain movement across the Earth's surface, the GE line flips like you described. I never looked into the exact mechanism on why it flips, but I am sure that someone has figured out what happens to the model when your line exceeds X distance. Download Google Earth Professional as there are more tools available to use. The "Sky" view in GE was really useful because you can determine a longitude (displacement) in Right Ascension hours and minutes using push pins. A nifty feature. You are good at math. Check out Johanne Schoner's 1510 published book...find the table with the Italian and German miles, then computationally work it to determine the circumference of the Earth as Schoner understood it. I looked through his manuscript and could never find the circumference value (or diameter/radius). You can then take that value and extrapolate it to the value of the Arabic Mile (expressed in kilometers).

Patrick Shekleton

12/5/2017 11:45:52 pm

A.N.,
Jim is just describing how easy it is to see that GE doesn't line draw accurately. Starting on the East Coast at the 49th parallel, draw your line the west coast intersect at that parallel, note the bearing line, and then continue that bearing line further across the Earth. You do end up in Australia. Its because GE does the Great Circle route mapping by default and continually updates it as you pull the line across the Earth with your cursor. The continual recalculation of the GC while running the same azimuthal heading drives one to Australia. I would venture that most folks don't, at least initially, see this warping going on.

Jim

12/5/2017 11:58:01 pm

The problem that is caused on GE is due to the the earths curvature depicted on the GE lines of latitude. In the northern hemisphere, a straight GE ruler line drawn from 1 point on a line of latitude to another point on the same line of latitude leaves the GE line of latitude depicted as an arc under the straight line. When you continue on with the straight drawn line it must cross the curved line of latitude,,,, it is now bearing in a southerly direction that actually started at the center point of the straight line between the two points where it coincides with the line of latitude.

Americanegro

12/6/2017 12:59:19 am

Patrick,

With all due respect (and you just used it up), Jim is talking nonsense.

"I will spell it out for those that have a problem with common sense or a learning disability. If you start at the easternmost point of the 49th parallel that is part of the Canada, US border pass over the western end of the same Canada US border, and continue on the line leads to Australia."

Canada is in the northern hemisphere, Australia is in the southern hemisphere.

I DON'T GIVE AN EFF WHAT GOOGLE EARTH DOES. GOOGLE EARTH IS NOT REALITY.

And guess what? You can draw a great circle from any point on the globe to any other point on the globe, they don't all go to Australia.

I don't have a learning disability Jim, you have an explaining disability.

Jim

12/6/2017 03:21:41 am

"Canada is in the northern hemisphere, Australia is in the southern hemisphere."

Yes exactly AN, thanks, that is exactly the point.

David Bradbury

12/6/2017 03:51:25 am

"Canada is in the northern hemisphere, Australia is in the southern hemisphere.
I DON'T GIVE AN EFF WHAT GOOGLE EARTH DOES. GOOGLE EARTH IS NOT REALITY. "
It's not a stupendously bad approximation of reality though. Any Great Circle not drawn round the Equator will inevitably be symmetrical (-ish, given the slight oddity of the planet's shape) between the northern and southern hemispheres, and any "straight" line on Google Earth will inevitably be an arc of a Great Circle.

Americanegro

12/5/2017 11:15:58 am

"WILLIAM M SMITH
12/5/2017 12:01:44 am
Magnetic north and magnetic south is an isometric line that existed in 1472 at the Newport Tower on the 41 latitude and also existed just off of Cape Verde Islands. 370 leagues west of Cape Verde Island was a magnetic declination line that had zero magnetic declination, this north and south magnetic line also went through Kensington Minn at the 46 latitude. These two magnetic isometric lines are pole lines that are 370 leagues apart (1110 miles). That is the pole line distance between the tower and the marker identified in the 1494 treaty. The west isometric pole line also gave Portugal an eastern portion of South America."

I'm going to violate Jason's directive and say WHAT THE GODDAM FUCK? You really sound like a crazy person.

You keep talking about "copyrighted". That means nothing. NOTHING. I can copyright a manual on my personal method of taking a poop.

You say "peer-reviewed". We've seen that can mean "I showed it to people at work." What do YOU mean by it?

Despite repeated requests you will not account for your fixation on the year 1472 nor have you explained what you mean by "isometric".

Where are you institutionalized?

Patrick Shekleton

12/6/2017 08:10:15 am

Jim/David, concur. GE is a modeling tool and it has some limitations. Not a bad approximation, as David stated. Inevitable arc of a GC, yep...by default. The GC presentation may be converted to a rhumb track by doing a filled, outlined polygon between the end points (as others have evaluated, explained, and written about on the GE technical blogs). The use of a mean radius for the calculations in GE, as I gather they use, vice the exact parametric values for polar/equatorial radius creates some inaccuracy. AN, concur. Australia is in the SH. Have a good day.

Jim

12/6/2017 11:53:47 am

Sure, but, here is the thing. Google earth is not really inaccurately depicting this.
If you take a half mile length of string, using the north pole as a pivot point, create a circle around the pole with a half mile as it's radius, you have in fact created an east west line that is definable as latitude using degree,minutes,seconds etc. Go 1 mile east to west on it(following your circle line) and you will find that there is in fact a shorter route, not by going E/W but by going in a straight line across the arc. I would expect this to be true to lesser degrees the further south one goes until you hit the equator.
The shortest distance is a straight line, not going directly east to west. If you follow a compass bearing, you are not going the shortest route unless it is exactly north/south or on the equator.

David Bradbury

12/6/2017 02:22:57 pm

This is getting a bit trivial, but ...
There is no straight line across the arc, unless you have created a flat floor. Imagine instead drawing the circle with a piece of string 5,000 km long, and trying to walk between two points on the circle which were, say, 70 degrees of longitude from each other. Then your "straight line across the arc" would be very blatantly curved northward, and longer than following the arc (but a Great Circle course between the two ends of the arc would be shorter) !

Jim

12/6/2017 03:14:08 pm

Yikes,,, true as well,,, I am just going to leave it at,,,the pseudos drawing lines on google earth to made connections over long distances are generally in error.

Patrick Shekleton

12/6/2017 12:14:59 pm

Jim, no dispute on what you said. That is why GE is for presentation, not calculation. Use the other app for computational end point determination, then use GE for presentation plotting.

Patrick Shekleton

12/6/2017 02:47:13 pm

Flat floor is created by selecting "clamped to ground" on the altitude tab when you create the polygon measure. It's been a couple years since I looked this stuff up. Good conversation all. Time to move on.

David Bradbury

12/6/2017 03:47:30 pm

The words "time to move on" are overused. Appropriate on a pub-crawl, of course ...

Americanegro

12/6/2017 04:14:48 pm

Time to put Anthony Warren on an involuntary psychiatric hold is what I say, Patrick.

Patrick Shekleton

12/6/2017 09:46:09 pm

A good laugh on the pub crawl reference, that was good. Anthony is challenging himself and he is clearly having fun with the topic matter. I can't advocate for Anthony re-locating anywhere, because that means I have to re-locate with him, right?

Fringe guy

4/30/2018 08:07:00 pm

Google Earth is more accurate than anything medieval explorers had. It is analogous to a globe with an armature that lets you measure arcs on the globe. This will at least get you in the ballpark of lets say the angle from the Newport Tower to the Kensington rune (which if at all was likely done in the late nineteenth century). All of these angles are only relative to their point of measurement and the target. In addition a single point projection like a polar projection that uses lets say Rome as its center point instead of the pole lets you draw straight lines even on a flat map. The line tool on google earth is not like latitude lines which are 90 degrees to the pole at each measurement point forming a circle as you point out. The direction measured is only relative to its point of origin or datum. So some relative accuracy is available that is in fact way more accurate than anything available to people in 1362 for example. Later as more astronomical observatories were created ephemeris allowed them to compare their locations spatially via triangulation. Terrestrial time keeping advanced prior to the nautical clock thus aiding this concept. So the "inaccuracy" of Google Earth you point out is only valid in modern terms that did not exist until the 1990's. There has never been total accuracy in any of the methods for calculating arc on the globe thus leading us to the GIS concept of a buffer zone. If you plot a line from Newport to Austrailia of course its path eventually won't reflect a westerly course with regard to latitude. duh. But this is a version of the single point projection that lets you draw straight lines without calculating arc so more ancient people could have used this concept with relative accuracy using astronomy. I do write about this and have consulted phd geographers who concur that this is accurate even if they don't buy my theory as to its cultural applications. So I call b.s. on people who say Google Earth is not accurate enough to make assumptions about arcs, their path and spatial accuracy. It is the easiest thing to use at this point as well. I have also studied map reading, Cartography, and GIS. You guys are arguing over this and it is amazing. Get out a globe and pull strings on it or get one with an armature and this is what people had after a certain point. Now historically this wasn't feasible until much later than 1362 for example. Navigators didn't worry about arcs that much either because they simply plot their position every day or few days and connect the dots with straight lines which at the scale they are presenting are accurate enough. Later when aircraft became the norm arc paths were more important for accuracy. Trying to debunk Google Earth is kind of weak in my opinion.

William M Smith

5/1/2018 11:29:02 am

Fringe Gut - Good explanation on use of Google Earth for measuring point to point distance.

Mike Morgan

12/6/2017 09:23:19 pm

Wolter has now joined his XplrR partner, Pulitzer, and his fanboys and fangirls, in spreading another myth.

Anonymous December 1, 2017 at 2:56 PM

"Scott: thank you for continuing your research. Once again, your work stimulates discussion, and I appreciate it. What makes me ill is when someone like Colavito can disparage your work. If he would dive into your efforts with an open mind, maybe he'd at least concede there is something to this. Please keep up the work, I, for one, appreciate it."
Mike in NH

Scott Wolter December 6, 2017 at 5:32 PM
"Mike,
That guy is a paid debunker to help continue the flase narrative we all know is B.S. Best thing is to ignore blogs like that and eventually they will dry up and go away.

I will continue to forge ahead and am looking forward to sharing the best yet to come "

Mike Morgan

12/6/2017 09:27:07 pm

Oops. Meant to ask:

Jason, any big plans all this extra blog money?

Only Me

12/6/2017 09:41:46 pm

"That guy is a paid debunker"

Says the former host of a cable show that was paid for his nonsensical fringe history. Even if Jason was getting paid (he isn't), how is one worse than the other?

"Best thing is to ignore blogs like that and eventually they will dry up and go away."

This blog has been up since 2010. 2018 is almost upon us. I don't see that happening.

Jim

12/6/2017 09:57:14 pm

Jason is a secret undercover Jesuit priest who is paid a stipend by the Pope to eradicate the Templars in North America. He is also an expert inquisitor, however due to an undisclosed papal bull, they haven't been able to use torture for over 100 years.

Jim

12/6/2017 10:16:53 pm

Modern day Templars in Seville Spain

http://gayiberia.com/seville/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Seville-Holy-Week-Brotherhood.jpg

William M Smith

12/6/2017 10:04:06 pm

Jim - for a person that states he is good at the English language, just where in the hell did you read in any of my post (Canaries ) (your statement---William,,,, Are you suggesting that a party sailed from the Canaries). I did say Cape Verde many times. I agree with Scott Wolter that this site is full of debunkers and most have never been to Minn. but are experts in bull shit.

Jim

12/6/2017 10:33:41 pm

Really William you should take the advice Only Me gave you and just stop now.
You are once again revealing your lack of knowledge and comprehension of the Treaty of Tordesillas. This is taken from your very own post !!!

"These vessels shall meet at the Grand Canary Island during this time, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, These said vessels shall continue their course together to the said Cape Verde Islands, from whence they shall lay a direct course to the west, to the distance
of the said three hundred and seventy degrees,"

"Jim - for a person that states he is good at the English language"
Stop making crap up ! Where did I say this ??????

Americanegro

12/7/2017 02:58:41 am

"a person that..."? Really?

William M Smith

12/7/2017 02:23:08 pm

Jim - It is obvious you have a problem in spelling and now reading. My post included a direct English translation that included the word Canary one time, however it was and has been confirmed this was a typo by the English translator. Just as I told you the true translation is in Portuguese which was also attached. If you also feel the navigators used a straight line for distance and did not consider the curvature of the earth you are still living on a flat earth. (370 leagues or 370 measurements would generate 2020 feet of error in a 1110 mile on earth distance. This is less than 1/2 mile off in distance) ( One days travel was how distance was recorded by age of discovery navigators) ( one day is 24 hours at a speed of 3mph or 72 miles). 1 day travel north from the KRS is the main camp, 14 days travel is where the main ships are located with 10 men. (15 days north or 1085 miles places the main ships at the mouth of the Nelson river on Hudson Bay.) (frozen or not). I like talking to you guys, its like having an idiot reunion.

Jim

12/7/2017 04:51:06 pm

William, Its obvious you have a fetish for being humiliated on public blogs, I will accommodate you one last time and then I will require a one hundred dollar fee for each subsequent post.
As usual your comprehension of the English written word is almost completely nonexistent. The conversation earlier on this blog involving the curvature of the earth was about the errors one could make using lines drawn on google earth. It did not relate to navigation practices of a voyage in the 15th century THAT DID NOT EVEN HAPPEN. Unless you think, perhaps they used google earth back then ?
Where the hell do you get 3 miles = 1 league,,, oh ya, you already admitted to making that up ! One league in the Spanish measurement of the day was 2.6 miles, the Portuguese league varied in length depending on the angle degree of a meridian arc, in other words 370 leagues on the latitude of the Cape Verde Islands is a completely different length than 370 leagues measured at the Newport tower latitude. This completely invalidates the measurements that make your nonsensical theory work. Unless you use your invented 3mile = 1 league distance, your formulation is garbage.
Your comments on the Hudson bay are to stupid to discuss. I will need an additional $200 to discuss them.
Did I mention this voyage never happened ?

"The Treaty of Tordesillas only specified the line of demarcation in leagues from the Cape Verde Islands. It did not specify the line in degrees, nor did it identify the specific island or the specific length of its league. Instead, the treaty stated that these matters were to be settled by a joint voyage which never occurred. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

Jim

12/7/2017 07:54:35 pm

By the way William, It is about 780 miles from Kensington to the mouth of the Nelson river, not 1085 as you say, have you changed the length of a mile now ? Roman miles ? a typo ?

Joe Scales

12/7/2017 10:51:58 pm

"I like talking to you guys, its like having an idiot reunion."

And there you made your best point Bill, though unintentionally. The more you argue with an idiot, the harder it is to tell the difference. Food for thought for the next reunion.

Americanegro

12/7/2017 03:49:06 pm

Please, stop the madness.

"0.12456111111111111111111111111111 km" NASA doesn't use that level of precision.

"370 leagues = 1,277.36519 miles" This has the virtue of [laying claim to] being accurate to within half a foot, which can at least be seen.

"My post included a direct English translation that included the word Canary one time, however it was and has been confirmed this was a typo by the English translator. "

Not buying that.

David Bradbury

12/7/2017 05:23:32 pm

Oh no! We're really going to have to stop this agreeing thing.

From the Portuguese text of the Treaty of Tordesillas:
"dentro dos dez primeiros meses seguintes, a contar do dia da conclusão deste tratado hajam os ditos senhores seus constituintes de enviar duas ou quatro caravelas, isto é, uma ou duas de cada parte, mais ou menos, segundo acordarem as ditas partes serem necessárias, as quais para o dito tempo se acham juntas na ilha da grande Canária ..."

Americanegro

12/7/2017 05:57:25 pm

And that's the _second_ of the "one time" the word appears.

Only Me

12/7/2017 06:00:54 pm

David, where did you get a version of the Portuguese text? All images I've found of the treaty are really hard to see.

David Bradbury

12/7/2017 06:39:48 pm

Quite a lot of Brazilian websites include transcripts (unsurprisingly). Try this one for starters:
http://www.dhnet.org.br/direitos/anthistbr/brasilcolonia/tordesilhas.htm

Only Me

12/7/2017 07:01:47 pm

Thanks, David.

Jim

12/7/2017 07:02:33 pm

ilha da grande Canária ,,,,,to,,,,,,,,Ilhas de Cabo Verde,,,,,,
Grand Canary Island,,,,,,,,,to,,,,,,,,Cape Verde Islands,,,,
typo, sure why not ?

William M Smith

12/8/2017 08:21:58 am

Jim - 14 days north as stated on the KRS can not be measured as you say 750 miles. If they were using airplanes they may have been close to your number in leagues (250). However they could not fly and had to travel by water. The Red to the Nelson to the Hudson Bay is 14 days travel as recorded in distance units used by navigators. The actual trip back to the mother ships was 10 days north and 4 days east. (1008) miles. At a average speed of 1mph they could have made the trip in 40 actual days or less. The total time to make the inland voyage would be about 80 days or just over 21/2 lunar months of 75 days. This time is recorded on the lodestone from their compass in the form of a spiral symbol. Many other items they observed are asls recorded on this lodestone. What the natives looked like, the houses they lived in , the food they ate and the tools they used to make recordings. Note: The two pointers crossing represent the two norths used to establish longitude by reading the change in magnetic declination. Unlike Scott Wolters claim for the hooked X , it is the symbol of the navigator who used trudgen's north and magnetic north for longitude. For you idiots who can not get to my paper on this subject by the directions presented earlier, you can look at The Mystery stone of New Hampshire for additional information. Be shut to look at the hole in the stone that held the magnetite for the stone to make the needle turn in the compass. It is the hole with the cardinal rose and has two diameters for allowing the powder to scrape off the loading rod. Hell my paper will even show you how it was loaded and how the powder was obtained. I may be an idiot but for sure the hooked X is not Templar or The Virgin Mary.

Jim

12/8/2017 11:46:41 am

Oh hell, why not.
William,,,
" ( One days travel was how distance was recorded by age of discovery navigators) ( one day is 24 hours at a speed of 3mph or 72 miles). 1 day travel north from the KRS is the main camp, 14 days travel is where the main ships are located with 10 men. (15 days north or 1085 miles places the main ships at the mouth of the Nelson river on Hudson Bay.) "

So which is it ??? You have completely moved the goalposts and changed your story today ! How do you expect to be taken seriously when you change your story on a day to day basis in mid argument. And I might add, you change your story when your first version is proven wrong, wrong, wrong.
Did I mention this voyage never took place ?
To truly understand what is going on here one must look at this link;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY

Harold Edwards

12/8/2017 12:18:05 pm

There is a wonderful book, Canoeing with the Cree, by the late Eric Sevareid, a mainstay on CBS news for many years. Eric had just graduated from high school in 1935 when he and a friend canoed from Minneapolis north to York Factory on Hudson Bay in Manitoba--about 900 miles. They started on June 17 and reached Lac Qui Parle close to the conjunction of Minnesota, South Dakota, and North Dakota and relatively near Kensington on July 4. They canoed down stream on the Red River and Lake Winnipeg to reach Norway House on the northern tip of Lake Winnipeg on August 31 and from there down the Hayes River to York Factory at the coast of Hudson Bay, which they reached on September 23. This latter leg of the journey was about 300 miles and took 23 days canoeing downstream. There were waterfalls and rapids that need portaging around. They of course were traveling through relatively peaceful territory controlled by the the U.S. and Canadian governments. It would have taken much longer for a party of Norsemen who did not have the benefit of birch bark canoes to paddle upstream through hostile territory. We know that the Dakota peoples did not allow neighboring natives to hunt in their territory. If caught, they killed them. We have historical accounts of that. The story on the KRS inscription is pure fantasy.

Jim

12/8/2017 12:29:25 pm

Thanks Harold, so probably about a 8 to 9 month round trip by canoe, taking into consideration the upstream paddling going north ? Not having to build your own heavy wooden boats that would be much slower ?

Harold Edwards

12/8/2017 12:49:02 pm

During the first half of the 19th Century before railroads were constructed in northern Canada, there were heavy wooden boats called York boats used by Hudson's Bay Company to ferry goods south from Hudson Bay to as far south as Winnipeg. These were patterned after boats descended from Viking age boats used in the Orkney Islands near Scotland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_boat Information I have is that birch bark canoes were unknown to the Dakota peoples in the 14th Century. These were acquired when Ojibwa peoples moved into Minnesota during the European Fur Trade, ca. the 16th Century. These are superior to European boats, being stronger and lighter and hence easier to carry over portages. Proof of this is the adoption of their design in fiberglass and aluminum the world over.

Jim

12/8/2017 12:50:29 pm

"upstream paddling going north" should read south.

Jim

12/8/2017 12:57:43 pm

Now that is interesting, and future ammunition in this ongoing nonsense. I always assumed the Cree, Dene and other northern tribes had the canoe.

Harold Edwards

12/8/2017 01:31:25 pm

The Cree had this technology, but they may not have been present in Manitoba in the 14th Century. Southern Manitoba had Siouxan peoples related to the Dakota who moved west when English and French fur traders moved into the area. There was a large settlement just north of Winnipeg that was the northernmost region for corn agriculture in the 14th Century. A party of Norse would have had to sail past it when going south on the Red River. A number things happen once there is permanent European contact. First and most important is a big die off of the native peoples. This leaves large swats of territory uninhabited or under inhabited to the extent that when the U.S. moves west the settlers are surprised by the pristine and virtually uninhabited forests. The second thing that happens is the fur trade gives wealth and power and guns to the natives in the east. The Ojibwa come into Minnesota in the 16th Century and drive the Dakota out of northern 2/3rds of the state. They drop bags of gunpowder into Dakota lodges. Keep in mind the loss of evan a few warriors is a major catastrophe for a tribe since they also are the hunters who gather the sources of protein for the tribe. Later yet horses are introduced into the plains which for a brief time transforms the native peoples way of life. The upshot of all of this is the configuration of native peoples in 16th-19th Centuries when we start writing accounts of them is radically different from what it was in 1362. What all the KRS bullshit does is to make us lose sight of what was really going on in North America in 1362, in effect robbing the native peoples of their heritage by robbing them of their true history.

Jim

12/8/2017 07:06:30 pm

Myself, and I imagine most people don't know much about the pre Columbian history of the native people. For a portion the northern area around the Hudson Bay you have the Chipewyan (Dene) who clashed with the inland Inuit that have since been relocated to Baker Lake. A lot of hatred still exists there, although I am not sure that the Inuit territory extended to the Hudson Bay.

Jim

12/8/2017 12:15:35 pm

William, just how stupid do you think these explorers were ? You are saying they sailed over 1500 miles NE to find a shorter route west ? That they sailed over 7000 miles (round trip) into a bay where they were likely to be frozen in and perish in an arctic winter so that they could cut off 100 miles of overland travel ?

David Bradbury

12/9/2017 03:09:37 am

William M. Smith; just in case you missed it when I posted it upthread- are you by any chance closely related to Inger E. Johansson?
http://www.pastpresented.ukart.com/primesauce/

Jim

12/9/2017 10:53:19 am

David, does the Oxford English Dictionary perchance describe canary as meaning green (verde) ?

Americanegro

12/9/2017 01:13:23 pm

The Oxford English Dictionary of Portuguese?

David Bradbury

12/9/2017 04:34:11 pm

The answer to both Jim and Americanegro's questions is- Nobody Knows.
The more effort you make to get an answer which makes sense from either William or Inger, the less meaningful their responses become.

Americanegro

12/9/2017 05:32:21 pm

In spite of the question mark I wasn't really asking a question, Triple D. This is one of those cases where "Nobody knows" is BS, Triple D. "Canary" has been the name since the time of Pliny and has nothing to do with the color green.

It's Saturday where I am. Surely you have some drizzly dowagers to dazzle?

David Bradbury

12/10/2017 04:42:06 am

Ahhhh, that's more like it.
Normal service has been resumed.

Americanegro

12/8/2017 01:00:33 pm

"Jim - 14 days north as stated on the KRS can not be measured as you say 750 miles. If they were using airplanes they may have been close to your number in leagues (250). ..."

But wait! Navigators didn't measure in leagues, they measured in days of non-stop travel, right? So the continental United States from New York City to Los Angeles is 48 hours wide. All the mileage measurements we've been taught are wrong.

"...The Red to the Nelson to the Hudson Bay is 14 days travel as recorded in distance units used by navigators...."

Because they measured distance in time units. "Let's see, we could have walked 72 miles in 24 hours but we only walked 10 hours which is 30 miles but since that was one day's travel we're going to call 30 miles 72 miles. Yes, that's the ticket!" Of course there's the question of "Did they use the Spanish or Portuguese day's travel? Or the ancient Greek day's travel? The Norse would probably have used a forerunner of the Hanseatic day's travel.

"... The actual trip back to the mother ships was 10 days north and 4 days east. (1008) miles. At a average speed of 1mph they could have made the trip in 40 actual days or less. The total time to make the inland voyage would be about 80 days or just over 21/2 lunar months of 75 days...."

It's okay to just say "2 1/2 months" "or 11 1/2 weeks".

".... This time is recorded on the lodestone from their compass in the form of a spiral symbol...."

That's been recovered, has it? And they drew on it?

".... Many other items they observed are asls recorded on this lodestone. What the natives looked like, the houses they lived in , the food they ate and the tools they used to make recordings...."

How big was this lodestone that was recovered?

".... Note: The two pointers crossing represent the two norths used to establish longitude by reading the change in magnetic declination......."

So they had reference works on magnetic declination, and the composers of those works must have been able to calculate longitude halfway across the United States for these travelers to use magnetic declination to determine longitude.

"..... I may be an idiot..."

Taken as read.

Jim

12/8/2017 01:30:43 pm

Stupendous
Last time they created all these stoneholes by mining magnetite for loading into their lodestone compasses to determine among other things longitude. (yes Longitude lol) Now it appears that they had a lodestone with them the whole time ! Oh how the story changes. I wonder what his revised story of the stoneholes reads now.

Jim

12/8/2017 03:55:51 pm

Hahahah,,
William,,, "you can look at The Mystery stone of New Hampshire for additional information."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Winnipesaukee_mystery_stone

William,,,"This time is recorded on the lodestone"
Wiki,,,,"Analysis has concluded the stone is a type of quartzite."
Wiki,,,"In 1994, a borescope analysis of the stone's holes was performed. State archaeologist Richard Boisvert later suggested that the holes had the appearance of having been drilled by power tools from the 19th or 20th century:
William,,, " Be shut to look at the hole in the stone that held the magnetite for the stone to make the needle turn in the compass."

Well I shut did look at that, why do you need to put magnetite in an already magnetic magnetite stone (loadstone) to make it magnetic ?

William M Smith

12/9/2017 01:54:14 pm

Just for the record - A few folks on this site sound exactly like Scott Wolter when he responds to a proven false claim. 1- When I measured the mechanical wear line on the KRS for Richard Nielson we decided to change the wording ground line to mechanical wear line. The first measurement was completed by holding the straight edge of a credit card vertical over the line and observing light all along the horizontal face where the line exist. By placing a tapered tooth pick in the gap between the card and stone to size the opening, then using a hand held micrometer to measure the location on the toothpick to provide the .022 in. gap. Mr. Wolter has stated three times to me that no wear line exist. I have ask him three times to show his proof of measurements to make this statement. Of course he did not and never will because it would not support his claim the KRS was buried to be located by the many stone holes on the KRS site. (proof of the mechanical wear line is on the stone and shown in a photo posted in my paper). Another point of contention is the Mystery Stone of New Hampshire - I have worked with Mr. Glen Ballah (museum curator) on the make up of the stone and various reports from geologist, including Scott Wolter. Scott claims it is a artifact made by the native Americans. The facts are it is a granite stone from most likely a fault line in Spain and France. This is because of the size of the white crystals in the dark stone. Also stated by geologist is this type of stone has a definite signature because of the pressure when formed by fault lines that control the crystal size. They also agree that the stone is not native to New Hampshire and unknown in America. This is also explained in detail in my paper as well as photos of Admiral Somers 1606 lodestone located in a Bermuda museum. The last topic is the 14 days travel from the KRS site to Hudson Bay. It is not 750 miles because the explorers used the water ways. Their voyage in distance is recorded in the same manner as on the oceans. One days travel is 72 miles which is equal 24 hours at 3 mph. This standard was based by using the estimated circumstance of the earth at the equator (25,500 from Arabia in 1250 AD). Rounded to an even number and divided by 360 degrees it was a standard for map making. From the KRS site to the camp one day north was 65 miles (Identified by a cluster of triangle stone holes), from the camp to lake Winnipeg via the Red River is 350 river miles, across to the north on Lake Winnipeg is 250 miles and then down the Nelson to Hudson Bay is 400 river miles. This total river or water miles is 1065 miles not 750 as reported by others on this site. 1065 miles/ 15 days = 71 miles per day. Very close to the 72 standard used by sailors to report distance covered in 24 hours or 24 leagues / day or 3 mph the average speed of the Atlantic current. The distance is equal to 15 days of length of 72 miles /day. The actual time to cover this distance in a six man fishing boat with sail would be 24 days at 1.5 mph. The very slow current of the Red and Nelson in ancient times was very slow and a non factor. One of the major concerns of the five nations that lived along the Red and Nelson was the construction of dams that turned the water cloudy and made living difficult in their native lands. (six fisherman in a dingy with a sail and native Americans showing the way can beat the hell out of a trapper canoe on a 1000 mile trip) (do not get caught up a creek without a paddle). Even the Native American Tallawanda (sp?) took the stone boat across Lake Ontario from west to east to advise the tribes of the new laws of the land. The fisherman used stones for ballast in their small six man sail boats. The sad news is the white man gave the native Americans pneumonia at the Newport Tower the same time they gave it to the 10 native Americans on the KRS 1472 expedition to claim land for the King of Portugal and the King of Denmark. This is my last post, however if you wish to read the detail facts of the subject just go to the 120 slide presentation I posted earlier. Even though I do not support a lot of Scott Wolter's bullshit, I have less respect for those that open their mouth before reading the facts of proof.

Americanegro

12/9/2017 02:44:55 pm

You

know

you

can

do

this

right

?

Get someone in the day ward to help you if you must.

"the straight edge of a credit card ... a tapered toothpick" "observing the light" C'est pour rire, n'est-ce pas?

I note that you do not date the wear line. Is it possible it predates the carving?

360 degrees has nothing to do with 72 miles.

"Very close to the 72 standard used by sailors to report distance covered in 24 hours or 24 leagues / day or 3 mph the average speed of the Atlantic current."

The Queen's Barge, powered by rowers, moves at 7 miles an hour. The point of having sails is to negate the reliance on currents. SMFH

"The sad news is the white man gave the native Americans pneumonia at the Newport Tower the same time they gave it to the 10 native Americans on the KRS 1472 expedition to claim land for the King of Portugal and the King of Denmark."

So not during the time they were BUILDING the Newport Tower?

Whence comes your obsession with the year 1472? And if the Portuguese and Danish were here before Columbus a) Why did they never mention it? and b) Where's the proof? Proof would of course include records of financing such a voyage, not just artifacts.

"This is my last post, however if you wish to read the detail facts of the subject just go to the 120 slide presentation I posted earlier."

We all know that "This is my last post" is code for "Be on the lookout for my next post".

You claim to post "links" to your work, but this is the gibberish you posted:

https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive

"This link may be easier to download for latest on subject information. MASTER809.pdf"

This link takes one to a Facebook site where there is no such file, but there is a MASTER 809 2.pdf which looks like it was written by a crazy person.

SERIOUSLY WILLIAM M SMITH? What is your major malfunction?

John (the other one)

12/9/2017 02:46:38 pm

I haven't posted in a long time but I just needed to put it out there.

You had me at credit card and toothpick. Nothing says good science like random stuff from your pocket.

If you stop assuming that all of your "facts": NT, stone holes, KRS, treaty, etc are related and analyze them independently what will you find.

For example the stone holes make sense as being related to blasting large chunks of stone but people who post Norse things can't believe that because it doesn't fit into the Norse narrative because they must be Norse because of the NT and KRS.

If the KRS is not assumed to be Norse the Norse meaning of the stone holes loses its Norseness.

As a scientist I find it sad and comical when I see people posting bad science and bad math based on a poor reading of facts because they assume what they want to see because it is exciting for them. The point at which the comedy ceases is when they teach someone else about their logical failures.

Referencing yourself is pointless, people don't trust people who claim they are an expert (see Scott Wolter and others). I also find that the more volume of material you feel you need to post to justify your position the less meaningful the work is. I just post my papers and no one ever questions my work. (And they are peer-reviewed in academic journals)

Jim

12/9/2017 04:01:38 pm

William,

A lodestone is a naturally magnetized piece of the mineral magnetite (wiki)
It is not a stone with a hole that you load magnetite into.
Most magnetite is not magnetic.
If you stand facing true north with your arms outstretched to your sides your left arm will be pointing west and your right arm will be east.
If you follow a line from the Atlantic ocean 1110 miles west of the Cape Verde Islands to Newport, you will be bearing west from true north.
If you use this same bearing error to go 1110 miles west you end up in Kansas.
Can you explain why the KRS is in Minnesota again ?

Jim

12/9/2017 04:07:02 pm

Should read : If you use this same bearing error to go 1110 miles west of Newport you end up in Kansas

Only Me

12/9/2017 05:03:44 pm

The mechanical wear line doesn't exist, for the reasons Harold Edwards explained further up the comment section.

The New Hampshire Mystery Stone is a hoax and its composition is irrelevant to determining its status as an artifact. It lacks provenance. That stone could have been left where it was discovered at any time. The 1606 lodestone doesn't prove the Mystery Stone was used for the same purpose.

"Their voyage in distance is recorded in the same manner as on the oceans."

That would mean using the league. Unfortunately, the nautical league is not the same distance as the land-based league. Your original argument was for the use of the league and your only definition of what that league was is the modern distance of three miles, the distance for the land-based league. Which nautical league was used for the voyage? Portuguese? Danish? It doesn't actually matter as the joint Portuguese-Danish voyage didn't actually occur. There's no historical record of it.

"Very close to the 72 standard used by sailors to report distance covered in 24 hours or 24 leagues / day or 3 mph the average speed of the Atlantic current."

So a league is now equal to an hour? Oh, boy. You do understand that the point of having sails on vessels is use the wind to provide locomotion. They didn't have to rely on the current to travel unless there was no wind.

"Even the Native American Tallawanda (sp?) took the stone boat across Lake Ontario from west to east to advise the tribes of the new laws of the land."

You're using Native American lore as evidence? Hoaxes and fringe theory weren't enough to throw into the blender to make your bullshit smoothie? I have concluded you're the beta test version of Scott Wolter: an incompetent blowhard with none of the entertainment value.

Jim

12/9/2017 05:44:24 pm

William,,"The very slow current of the Red and Nelson in ancient times was very slow and a non factor"

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/nelson-river/

" The Nelson takes an often turbulent course through the granitic Shield; as the last link in the long Saskatchewan River system and as a conduit for the waters of the Red and Winnipeg rivers as well, it has a mean flow at its outlet of 2066 m3/s. Today the Nelson's drop and huge volume are exploited for hydroelectric power. "

"The very slow current", ya right,

"Its total drainage area covers over 800 000 sq. km and it discharges 110 cubic km annually. It provides an outlet for the great Saskatchewan river system from Lake Winnipeg, with the two systems together (including the Bow River) traveling 2600 km and draining 1.2 million sq. km of land."

http://www.aquatic.uoguelph.ca/rivers/nelson.htm

Add in all the volume from the Red river, the Assiniboine river and all the other rivers that empty into it and it must almost come to a standstill.
Stop making up crap.

Americanegro

12/9/2017 06:31:06 pm

Jim, what I hear you saying hear is "I don't know anything about the speed of the Red River's current." It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Jim

12/9/2017 07:52:38 pm

The speed is dependent upon volume, width and depth, so of course it varies. I would guess an average of about 4mph.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/the-new-jet-set-392844171.html

"His jet boat is fast. He travels at 80 km/h downstream, and 68 km/h upstream on return."

I know there are dams, but there may be just a little bit of current. Watch this video.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/kayak-nelson-river-northern-manitoba-1.3787869

Jim

12/9/2017 07:58:52 pm

This is of course the Nelson River, the Red ? You figure it out.

Americanegro

12/9/2017 08:49:28 pm

What I hear you saying is that your GUESS outweighs our newest mental patient's ASSERTION. Do you see the problem there?

Jim

12/9/2017 09:08:09 pm

Is it my guess that a boat traveling downstream travels substantially faster than one going upstream ? Do you want a hard and fast current speed ? Stop nitpicking, the current speed will change drastically from spring runoff to the fall low water. The width and depth of the riverbed will alter the current speed drastically. If you want a definitive answer as to the current speed I cannot help you.
William says the Nelson river current was very slow. I call BS, what say you ?

Americanegro

12/9/2017 11:05:54 pm

I see the BS on you. I see the BS on YOUR SOUL!

Your initial position was "there's a lot of water, so it must be moving fast."

When you can supply measured current speeds, get back to me.

When you can detail how the speed of the jetboat was measured, get back to me.

I don't know what Mental Patient #1 means by "slow" but you haven't come CLOSE to making your case.

"If you want a definitive answer as to the current speed I cannot help you." Q.E.D.

Jim

12/10/2017 02:09:20 am

I don't really give a crap what you want. Here are some pretty pictures of your slow moving river.

http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/memoirs/grover.pdf

Jim

12/10/2017 02:47:17 am

The Hayes river ( part of the HBCs York Factory Express route ) was a better choice than the Nelson River for traveling south from the Hudson Bay to Lake Winnipeg. Due to the aforementioned strong currents it takes over three times as long upstream as compared to downstream. It was in fact possible to travel from the Hudson Bay upstream to the Red River in well laden boats in 30 days. The downstream trip taking 9 days.
It is what it is, this leg of the trip that never happened is theoretically possible. ,,,,page 98

https://books.google.ca/books?id=PrINAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=nelson+river+facts&source=bl&ots=kBuxfMsIHL&sig=qjU8o5VZDMXZpLmCC_xEJQjzM7I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr35Gg4f7XAhXF4IMKHTQZA9k4ChDoAQg1MAM#v=onepage&q=nelson%20river%20facts&f=false

William M Smith

12/10/2017 08:38:41 am

The original subject was the report that the Kensington rune stone was carved in the 19th century and proven by a (Swedish Scholar Finds New Evidence that the Kensington Runestone Uses 19th Century Runes).
He shows no absolute measurable proof that the KRS is 19th century. Where is his evidence???? If it is a lot of book references with no facts?
What he fails to explain is how did the 350 year old mechanical wear line of .022 inch deep and 3/4 inch wide get on the stone. Support for the 350 year time is from 60 known dated tomb stones in like environment with readings that show a lineal wear that relates directly to time. (field report recorded in paper).
What he fails to explain is where and why the KRS was placed on the zero magnetic declination line of 1472 and different than the 1362 location. (support for this is the Denmark and Portugal Kings of 1472 had mothers that were sisters and family ties back to 1362 Kings.
What he fails to explain is the updated translation of a few words on the KRS. Example is the runic word for death is used on the KRS and not dead. David Johnson is the finder of this fallacy. (The word death in runic translation represents a plaque and not hostilities.
What he fails to explain is the other rune stones (6 in total) that are located on the 1362 land claim.
What he fails to explain is the 4 rune stones on the east coast that have some common letters and age as the KRS. (The hooked X and R are a few examples) also the triangle holes have been traced like bread crumbs from Nova Scotia to Heavener Oklahoma.
His 5W's will not hold water when (19th century), why (fake). where (only area in USA with Norse), what (stone with modern runes), who (??????).
My 5W's are a lot different and a lot older.

Joe Scales

12/10/2017 10:19:39 am

" This is my last post..."

Remember when you wrote that? But please... don't explain.

Jim

12/10/2017 11:26:31 am

When all of your arguments and evidence fail,,, revert back to the beginning, hoping for a different outcome, again and again and again,,,,

Americanegro

12/10/2017 12:42:50 pm

So your proof that the Portuguese and Danish were in North America 20 years before Columbus's voyage is that some royal families in Europe were interrelated? SERIOUSLY WILLIAM M SMITH? I ask again, where are you institutionalized? Are you aware that the British royal family is German and is related to the Russian royal family?

Today, in your after-last post, you make a new claim, that the wear-line that you believe exists is not only .022" deep but 3/4" wide. Both of those figures are remarkably precise in spite of the difference in format, don't you think? I would love to hear the story of how you measured the width. My money's on a popsicle stick.

You still haven't addressed the question of dating the putative wear-line and the possibility that it predates the carvings.

William M Smith

12/12/2017 12:38:35 pm

In 1472 when Joao Corte Real was provided with 3 ships by the King of Portugal and the King of Denmark it is recorded that the Kings mothers were sisters from the House Of Lancaster in England. I am not aware of the relation of the Germans, British and Russians, however if that is your research so be it. This was not relevant where I was institutionalized.
Today is not a new claim that their is a wear line on the KRS. Holland believed it, Nelson believed it and I measured it for confirmation. Other members were present when I used tools on hand to show it and took photos which are in my paper. It is a lot harder to see with the naked eye since the molding was made by Scott Wolter that changed the color of the patina on the stone and forced the Swedes to ignore testing it. The 3D image I have made for the museum allows students to study the stone without paying $500;00 to remove the glass. It shows a horizontal row of porosity pockets below the runic letters that were made by the ground freeze and thaw over time, I do not understand your feeling that .022 in. and 3/4 in. is remarkably precise has any bearing with a popsicle stick. You measure flatness with a base of a confirmed as being flat (called a standard). This has not been done with the 3D scanning processes on the KRS because their is no points below the runic letters that have been used for a sounding point. It has been done by the THOR group by allowing a point above and a point below the wear line to show a lower space below the straight edge completely at all points across the face of the stone. This space is 3/4 in. wide. A good view of this line also exist on the right side of the stone and becomes larger at the back of the stone because it took years for the stone to fall on its face.
The dating of the wear line was completed by 4 THOR members who went to an old cemetery and measured the wear on 60 dated tomb stones by using a dial indicator depth gage with a 1/2 in by 2in shoe base and a 1/8 in ball tip on the dial trigger. After the data was recorded on an XY chart to establish a expected rate of wear over time, using x for time in years and y for depth readings, the rate of wear (slope of the line made from the 60 readings). The .022 in. on the KRS would have taken 350 years to produce. On a second trip to Alexandra we measured the mechanical wear line on Olaf Ohmans trump stone to be .004 in. (I guess you could say this was made by a weed eater if you like to disrupt true research).

Americanegro

12/12/2017 01:38:16 pm

WMS: "I am not aware of the relation of the Germans, British and Russians, however if that is your research so be it."

AN: Well thank you for at least crediting my research which is documented by my copious notes and posted on Facebook. I don't know why academia conspires to conceal this but one day I will be vindicated.

WMS: "Today is not a new claim that their is a wear line on the KRS. Holland believed it, Nelson believed it and I measured it for confirmation. Other members were present when I used tools on hand to show it and took photos which are in my paper."

Ah yes, the geologist's friend, the toothpick.

AN: "Today, in your after-last post, you make a new claim, that the wear-line that you believe exists is not only .022" deep but 3/4" wide."

WMS: "I do not understand your feeling that .022 in. and 3/4 in. is remarkably precise has any bearing with a popsicle stick."

That's because you're a mental patient. No range of depths, no range of width, just .022 X 3/4 in. from side to side? You don't expect us to believe you measured the width with a toothpick too surely?

WMS: "using a dial indicator depth gage with a 1/2 in by 2in shoe base and a 1/8 in ball tip on the dial trigger"

Had they no toothpicks?

Jim

12/12/2017 02:59:17 pm

William,, Again with the time travelling 1472 Joao Corte Real nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Vaz_Corte-Real

" Fragmentary evidence suggests the expedition in 1473 was a joint venture between the kings of Portugal and Denmark,"

Is it possibly a translating error ? When Gaspar Frutuoso wrote of Real in 1570-80 with the hindsight of the Columbus trips, it was about 100 years after the 1473 (not 1472) Real voyage.
When he reported that Real found an ISLAND (“Isle of Codfish”) you read this ISLAND as mainland America ? And that then he built a tower in accordance to a treaty from 20 years in the future !!
Complete speculation that he found Newfoundland does not translate to, went to Newport and built a tower !

https://esoterx.com/2016/08/28/training-wheels-of-the-gods-joao-vaz-corte-real-and-the-new-land-of-codfish/

Harold Edwards

12/12/2017 03:01:16 pm

You simply do not understand the laser scanning process. The operator arbitrarily assigns a zero point which is the origin to orthogonal axes--X, Y, and Z. The laser then scans a surface, the artifact is turned and again scanned, and the process is continued until all 6 surfaces are scanned. This gives a 3-dimensional replica of the surface of the artifact from which accurate measurements can be taken. This is more accurate than the use of a depth gauge.

The surface of the KRS front is the bedding plane of a sandstone. It is undulating because it has current lineations. These are common in sands and often preserved in sandstones. The graywacke that makes up the bulk of the KRS is a variety of sandstone. These current lineations have less than a millimeter of relief and thus cannot be very old. They would have been weathered smooth over 500 years. The surface was created by prying off a layer of sandstone thus revealing the bedding plane the inscription was carved into. Also on the front of the artifact is a triangular calcite layer in which the last three lines of text begin. Calcite under most conditions weathers and wears at a faster rate than the sandstone, so any so-called wear line should be especially visible due to this differential behavior. There is no wear line to be seen other than a few cracks here and there on the surface. These cracks can be natural joints that are common in rocks or could have been formed by the hammering the artifact received when it was shaped and when the inscription was carved into it.

As to your graveyard study: Where were the stones located and what kind of rocks were they made of? You are comparing rocks that vary in location and composition. Different localities have different climatic conditions and different rock types weather and wear at different rates. Garbage in, garbage out.

William M Smith

12/12/2017 04:13:08 pm

You state - (The operator establishes zero points) can you show the points on the 6 sides you state were placed to establish this 3D scan? I have viewed all of them and assure you the operator was only interested in the runic letters and not the area below on the face. Please supply your zero reading of the mechanical wear line. I do not want to hear your bull shit like Scott Wolter. Just provide a reference or link or any other made up story you wish. I have used 3D scanning for years as a flatness as well as used hard gaging on the KRS.

Harold Edwards

12/12/2017 04:43:42 pm

In both 2003 and 2008 the laser scans had a whole artifact scan. Also at somewhat higher resolution scans were made of rune clusters or lines of text. You are confusing the two.

You should be able to get a copy of the point cloud for the 2003 scan from the Runestone Museum in Alexandria. I believe they have a copy and you have a relationship with them. You then will need appropriate software to view the scans. I use Polyworks Viewer. You can get a free download for 32 bit or 64 bit Windows. There are versions for the Mac for some of the viewers. There are other free viewers as well: Meshlab or Cloud Compare are two free viewers. The 2003 scans are in the STL format. You cannot sell or use for commercial purposes the 2003 scan and need to credit the Swedish National Heritage Board who paid for the scan. Go look for yourself.

Americanegro

12/12/2017 05:26:26 pm

WMS: "You state - (The operator establishes zero points) can you show the points on the 6 sides you state were placed to establish this 3D scan? I have viewed all of them and assure you the operator was only interested in the runic letters and not the area below on the face. Please supply your zero reading of the mechanical wear line."

I think what Harold is saying is the operator decides on a starting or reference point. There probably wouldn't be a zero point specifically for the wear line you think is there, or indeed for any other particular feature of the stone.

WMS: "... I have used 3D scanning for years as a flatness as well as used hard gaging on the KRS."

What means it to "[use] 3D scanning ... as a flatness", MP?

William M Smith

12/12/2017 06:57:45 pm

You can not scan a surface with less than 3 reference points with known distance from the surface you are measuring. Any information outside of this area is not factual. Only the area inside the the triangle can be factual information because a flat plane has been established in this area. The museum has no 3D of the area where the wear line exist. They do have my report of the wear line which was a follow up requirement to report all found information from my original study where I made a 3D photo image with computer aid program for the school kids and public to view the stone. I have viewed Dick Neilson 3D you referred to as well as Scott Wolters rebuttal when Dick showed him the Dotted R was bull shit because it was extremely different to known dots in the runic letters. Wolters explanation for the shallow R's was the carver was afraid to screw up the stone surface of the upper R. I know of no #d scan which has any zero points south of the wear line.
As for 3D scanning for measuring , it is a fast and accurate way to establish the micro finish on a surface. It can be used on castings to locate points which are critical in three dimensions with each other in order to qualify the dies that are used to make the castings. I have used them on many components used in the automatic transmission manufacturing. I still would like to see what I ask for which is a link to a photo showing the spots located for filming in 3D which are below the face letters over 2 inches. You say they were placed on 6 sides of the KRS. Have you a reference that states this. Did they include the holding stand of the KRS? The museum does not have anything you are talking about and would probably destroy it as long as they are making money in the book store.

Harold Edwards

12/12/2017 08:09:37 pm

I am sorry, but you have no idea what these look like and therefore do not know what you are talking about.

In 2003 when the KRS was in Sweden 5 scans were made of the artifact. 1 is of the whole artifact including the area you are interested in. 4 others are higher resolution scans of selected rune clusters. I believe a copy of these were given to the Runestone Museum. These are large files and you will need to get them on DVD or from the cloud. The whole artifact scan, Kensington.Hela.stl, is 247,461 kb in size. The scans Wolter and Nielsen were discussing were made in 2008 and are not available to the public at this time. They are slightly higher in resolution than the 2003 scans, but the 2003 scans are pretty good and will keep you busy for several months. The laser measured distances (z direction) and the x-y coordinates of each point on the scan. These values are collected in a database--the point cloud. During the scanning the artifact was turned so that the sides and back could also be scanned. These values were then "stitched" to make a 3-dimensional array of points on the surface. This is the virtual artifact. This technology has been used for several decades to capture replicas of buildings and smaller items.

There is no stand. The artifact floats in space and can be turned to any angle or completely around and can be enlarged or reduced at will. From these views, images can be collected. The software acts like a camera. The images look like photos but they are not. Keep in mind all you are seeing is relative relief. There is no color and shades of gray express topography.

If you want similar examples you can go to this website and download some laser scans of runestones from Gotland also scanned by the Swedish National Heritage Board:

http://3ddata.raa.se/english.html

Ask the Runestone Museum for copies of the KRS scans. If they turn you down get back to me and we will work out a way you can get the files.

Americanegro

12/12/2017 08:18:51 pm

I was about to post that based on past performance my money was on Harold, MP. I believe the appropriate term for what just happened is "Bazinga!"

Harold Edwards

12/12/2017 08:46:44 pm

Something I should point out to people here. Mr. Smith gets a lot of ridicule for using a toothpick and plastic credit card to inspect the Kensington Stone. It is a valuable artifact even if it is a fake, and one cannot use destructive testing of any kind on it including metal tools. That is one of the problems examining artifacts to see if they are fake or not. That and the fact that they are typically one of a kind objects. They make fools out of even the most experienced geologists. Look up the Israel geological survey's handling of a fake stone that was purported to being part of the Temple of Solomon! They got it wrong and had a lot of egg on their faces. The first time I saw the Kensington Rune Stone up close in 2003 I could photograph it but do little else. This is frustrating to a geologist since we tend to hit a rock with a hammer to break off pieces. That way we can observe how it breaks--into planar segments or whatever. We can look at the minerals in a fragment broken off in a hand lens and maybe do some simple chemical tests. None of that was allowed to me back then. This is one of the advantages of laser scanning. It allows some close inspection and accurate measurements to be made. There are drawbacks to the technique, so it has to be used with care.

William M Smith

12/12/2017 09:01:09 pm

Bazinga Bull Shit - The 2003 3D scanning did not cover the area below the runes for resolution which will read a .022 depth variance due to resolution and placement of fixed points for reference. The Dick Nielson 3D for the same reason in 2008 when Dick ask I measure it when I made a photo 3D of the stone. Dick and I changed the name of the ground line to wear line in 2008. I also included this information on my report to the museum of the same year. Later when I revisited the museum and ask why they were not showing the 3D photo image on their computer for the students to study they stated they had lost. They were given a new one on the same day. Jerry Lugan who works on sites with Scott Wolter was with a few of us in 2008 who wanted to make the first 3D scan of the wear line, however the museum wanted to charge us $500 to open the stone for one hour. They also wanted to charge us to enter the museum to view or take photos of the stone. Frankly - we were treated with cold shoulders and for what it is worth, I left without paying another penny for study at the museum because my estimated cost of the 3D photo program would have exceeded $10,000 if I did not have friends in the THOR group that understood 3D photography. Frankly I do not care what you do with your GREEN stone in Minn. Some day when proper management wants to find the truth, they will lay a straight edge over the stone instead of reading reports that they fabricate to make noise like Scott Wolter (There is no wear line because I measured that area), He told this three times and was ask where got his info and what process he used to remove the wear line. As always No Answer. Your reference to 2003 and 2008 are no good and you are distorting history by your statements. Keep up the anti authentic work because it just makes the eggs bigger down the road.

Harold Edwards

12/12/2017 09:31:52 pm

I understand your frustration with the Runestone Museum. I will see if I can get the Minnesota Historical Society to curate the 3-D scan in the near future. Until then, Mr. Smith, you can ask the Swedish National Heritage Board for these materials. I got the files from them. If you are reasonably polite I am sure they will get them to you.

Jim

12/12/2017 10:28:22 pm

William, now that Mr. Edwards was so kind as to go above and beyond your requests for links as to the wear line, would you please post links (not your own work) that show Joao Corte Real in Newport 1478 ?

Jim

12/12/2017 10:31:22 pm

1472, sorry

William M Smith

12/13/2017 06:02:38 am

The following link may get you to a presentation which has citations for the 1472 voyage as well as other voyages. I have no intention to return to the KRS unless their is a movement to return the KRS to its proper place at the park in Kensington, where it can be protected from improper handling that has been allowed in Alexandra. https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/%20MASTER809%202.pdf?token=AWy2qFnTPVJ8EWK6klNLETp3Xmv7XzmEzNrbkIxTi8TmiwrPIAzC61JumFJnkaczrg99H3kmXdYiHwvT-XLa-gYjBuUqtN8cw6_tGecoLZvnw7ENS1Pb1UD1FteuWH50A8OzO5YniaPlruVGT8KH0XdC

Curious

12/13/2017 09:39:18 am

Can we back up here a minute in this Saturday morning dialogue...someone asked William if he researched the age of his supposed *as this is just conjecture* wear line. What if the line was already present long before William for sees this as a wear line? William, you never addressed this- What testing did you do to see IF this so called line( you see) could be much older and present before anything was carved on the stone? short answer will do- did you test for this or not???

William M Smith

12/13/2017 10:36:55 am

Curious - good question - The wear line exist on the left edge of the stone where the three final lines are located. It is measurable on all sides, however the back side has the wear line wider than the front because the stone took time to fall forward (350 years). Most of the research is in the presentation. I will attempt to provide a friendly link the Presentation. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SkbEHSXI42fHrgyHBE2x6pfS5rZIHhZn/view?usp=sharing)

William M Smith

12/13/2017 10:47:59 am

Will try to link presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SkbEHSXI42fHrgyHBE2x6pfS5rZIHhZn/view?usp=sharing

Americanegro

12/13/2017 11:22:08 am

Curious,

The answer is no, MP asserts that the putative wear line took 350 years to form but has done no research (or at least made no assertion on the age of the wear line so does not address the possibility that the fully formed wear line might predate the rune carvings. As you see he cannot answer that straightforward question. https://hubbabubba.foxbat.com/file/%20MASTUR809%202.pdf?token=MENTALIMUSTSAYLnRvPxxxHOOSIERDADDYskin6ksuitlNLETp3Xmv7XzmEzNrbkIxTi8TmiwrPIAzC61newhillshireH3kmooGaboOga-XLa-kYgooYYmJrrGdPkjufNN%20iuoi?q=.08loikPjpjssFg

William M Smith

12/13/2017 11:13:41 am

This is a large file and I am having problems getting the short link to open, however this may work. https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive

Americanegro

12/13/2017 12:33:05 pm

https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive

Mental Patient: THATLINKWILLNEVERWORK

Posting it multiple times, as you have done, will not make it work.

William M Smith

12/13/2017 12:47:00 pm

It works for me https://drive.google.com/drive/my-drive
Just copy it and paste it in the search bar and hit enter. It opens my Google Drive and is the first program (THOR).

Americanegro

12/13/2017 01:06:14 pm

OF COURSE IT WORKS FOR YOU YOU IDIOT.

What part of "my-drive" do you not understand?

(aside) And this is the guy who's teaching the whole world about laser scanning.

William M Smith

12/13/2017 11:30:19 am

Curious - The answer is not NO as you state. My reply to your question (Curious - good question - The wear line exist on the left edge of the stone where the three final lines are located. It is measurable on all sides, however the back side has the wear line wider than the front because the stone took time to fall forward (350 years).)
The 350 years was established by measuring 60 tomb stones and establishing the length of time to generate a .020 inch wear. This was stated early in my post and the actual field notes are in the slide presentation.

Americanegro

12/13/2017 12:42:27 pm

"Curious - The answer is not NO as you state. My reply to your question (Curious - good question - The wear line exist on the left edge of the stone where the three final lines are located. It is measurable on all sides, however the back side has the wear line wider than the front because the stone took time to fall forward (350 years).)
The 350 years was established by measuring 60 tomb stones and establishing the length of time to generate a .020 inch wear. This was stated early in my post and the actual field notes are in the slide presentation."

MP, let me 'splain this to you. I have a cauliflower ear that formed over a period of several years 40 years ago. I got my ear pierced last week. Is that piercing 40 years old?

cauliflower ear = putative wear line
ear piercing = runic carvings

You are aggressive about not answering the question "Do you have any reason to believe that the putative wear line's formation does not predate the runic carvings?"

If you don't understand the question, say so, don't just keep dodging it. Don't keep repeating "tombstones" like a mental patient. We get that part. Answer the question. You say "the answer is not NO". Is the answer then "YES"? Please answer yes or no without mentioning tombstones.

William M Smith

12/13/2017 01:10:35 pm

I feel you have a reading problem or you do not understand the make up of the Kensington Rune Stone. The left side of the KRS has 3 lines of runic letters. Below these letters or at the end of the three lines exist a measured mechanical wear line. This wear is on a surface that was removed by the carver before he made his runic letters. This is proven by the many tool punch marks on the face and left side of the stone. This makes the wear line no older than the carving or removal of the left side of the stone. The time frame for the beginning of the wear line is the time when the left side was squared off and the last three lines of runic letters were completed and the stone placed upright on the downslope of the hill.

Americanegro

12/13/2017 01:58:57 pm

"I feel you have a reading problem or you do not understand the make up of the Kensington Rune Stone."

Or you had to be asked over and over before you could rouse yourself from the thorazine fog and answer a simple question.

Jim

12/13/2017 02:40:18 pm

It's my understanding that the stone was placed on a 3/4 inch piece of iron (L shaped iron with the face resting on and one side of the stone abutting against the iron ) to stabilize it for use as a stepping stone for Ohman's grainery, causing a mechanical wear line.

http/notareallink

Americanegro

12/13/2017 05:16:16 pm

"It's my understanding that the stone was placed on a 3/4 inch piece of iron..."

I always find it fascinating when a natural phenomenon turns out to be exactly a common unit of measurement wide, albeit to an unknown precision: it's certainly no ".022 in." which because not otherwise stated is precise to the hundredth of an inch, but still, "3/4 inch"? Is that how scientists normally express their findings? It sounds more like carpentry to me.

Don't you find that fascinating?

Harold Edwards

12/13/2017 05:29:29 pm

I know of no source that states the runestone was ever placed on any iron object when used as a stepping stone. The only extensive eyewitness information comes from articles and books by Hjalmar Rued Holand who obtained the stone from Ohman in 1907. He saw it used as a stepping stone and anvil and repeated this account again and again. The back of the stone shows considerable corroboration of this abuse. Walter Gran in the Gran taped interview stated he saw the stone used as stepping stone as a boy. So did Emil Mattson in a taped interview and Swan Mattson in a newspaper interview. Both were neighbors of Ohman and believers in the authenticity of the artifact. There are other hearsay accounts from the residents of Kensington. Where did you get this story about the iron support?

Jim

12/13/2017 05:59:55 pm

Sorry , I was trying to be sarcastic by saying that nonsense about the piece of iron and leaving a fake link.
I did find some of Williams reports here:

http://www.migration-diffusion.info/article.php?authorid=105

The Newport Tower one seems to say the Portuguese were Goths.

"Who -It was likely built by the Portuguese (Goths) and Dutch (Norwegians)"

Americanegro

12/13/2017 06:51:56 pm

My suspicion of the "3/4 inch" measurement stands, too carpenterish. It implies a band of uniform width just like ".022 in. deep" implies a uniform depth. One marvels that this sort of work passes peer review.

Actually, one doesn't.

Americanegro

12/13/2017 11:55:14 pm

From looking at the Diffusions & Migrations website to which Jim posted a (WORKING) link, I see now that the Newport tower was a:

Fish smokery
dormitory (anyone asking themselves "is this guy a mental patient because who would sleep where the fish are smoked?")
calendar (anyone asking themselves "why not just bring a calendar"?)
clock (anyone asking themselves "why not just use a sundial?" or for that matter an actual clock, since they had been around for 200 years?)
tidal almanac (anyone asking "why don't we see these all over the world?")
"lunar compass" (anyone asking themselves "what is that?")
lighthouse, even though it was supposedly built where it could not be seen from the sea... and
a tobacco drying house.

That's right, ladies and gents! Fish AND tobacco! AND living quarters!

That's not too mental patienty.

http://www.migration-diffusion.info/article.php?id=222

David Bradbury

12/13/2017 05:11:12 pm

William- did you check for other wear lines elsewhere on the stone?

William M Smith

12/13/2017 07:51:26 pm

David - I spot checked other areas on the face, however the runic letters limited the area to check the total side to side. I did check and count the small porosity holes above and below the wear line. The back side of the stone clearly indicates these holes exist above the wear line and not below. Also a close inspection of the calcite on the face of the stone is cut by the wear line and shows a visual surface that indicates three different likely exposures or ages as some would say.

David Bradbury

12/14/2017 03:58:47 am

Thanks William. Next question: did the wear get deeper from top to bottom, or bottom to top?

Americanegro

12/14/2017 12:00:58 pm

Neither. The wear is .022" deep. The toothpick has spoken.

Americanegro

12/17/2017 06:11:53 pm

"David - I spot checked other areas on the face, however the runic letters limited the area to check the total side to side. I did check and count the small porosity holes"

Did you write the count down? What was the count?

"above and below the wear line. The back side of the stone clearly indicates these holes exist above the wear line and not below."

You're going to have to clarify that, MP. Were they above and below or not below? Above and below on one side and not below on the other?

What is a "porosity hole"? Is the term not redundant?

Jim

12/13/2017 12:00:07 pm

William, I have given you links showing Joao Corte Real did not come to Newport at all. You give me a broken link. Its not that hard, cite a source that backs up your claim !!! NOT YOUR OWN WORK !!!

William M Smith

12/13/2017 12:40:49 pm

Jim - You have not read my presentation which I have shared in good faith. My own work is supported by the THOR group and much has been peer reviewed by academics. I gave you the link to the presentation which has many reference citations to the Joao Corte Reals in America from 1472 through 1511. (6 are on slide 16, 1 is on slide 36 and slide 25 is the recap and reference to The RegalTreaty.

Americanegro

12/13/2017 01:08:45 pm

Or, for a more un-institutionalized perspective:

https://esoterx.com/2016/08/28/training-wheels-of-the-gods-joao-vaz-corte-real-and-the-new-land-of-codfish/

Jim

12/13/2017 01:20:44 pm

So, other than a broken link to your own evidence, you cannot give me one stinking link ? You sound exactly like Pulitzer. I do not care what Joao Corte Reals sons did after Columbus came to America !!! GIVE ME A LINK SHOWING REAL WAS IN NEWPORT IN 1472 !!! NOT YOUR OWN WORK!

Curious

12/13/2017 02:14:03 pm

"not no"... . my question, William, AGAIN--did you or did you not test to see if the weathering line was older than the inscription date? and if not being able to positively date the inscription- .....it is obvious that your figures are now skewed.

William M Smith

12/13/2017 07:55:42 pm

David - This link should get you to the 3D photo I made for public review of the KRS. Allow the program to load and use your cursor at the bottom to zoom and rotate. http://www.photospherix.com/3d-view/kensington-ruinstone/

Americanegro

12/13/2017 09:42:01 pm

You are incredible, MP. Taking pictures from different angles IS NOT A 3D PHOTOGRAPH. This puts your exquisition of laser scanning in a new and even less favorable light.

And using a dollar bill for scale? They didn't have any toothpicks?

Jim

12/13/2017 10:00:36 pm

5 dollar bills = 1 megalithic yard

Americanegro

12/14/2017 12:06:01 am

Very close anyway. And we know that CLOSE IS NEVER COINCIDENCE!!!

William M Smith

12/14/2017 12:50:06 am

Americannegro - You do not understand the 3D photo process at all. The camera does never move as well as the lighting. The object is placed on an indexing table and rotated for each image. This assures each photo is a replica of actual observation. In some cases two fixed cameras can be used to add the depth replica as viewed by the eye. The Newport Tower was filmed by taking 72 photos from even spaced movement of the camera which is called a panoramic view. The Ohio Rock was taken by fixed camera like the KRS. A link tool of these are in my slide presentation.

Americanegro

12/14/2017 11:58:01 am

"Americannegro - You do not understand the 3D photo process at all."

Taking pictures from different angles IS NOT A 3D PHOTOGRAPH MP.

"The object is placed on an indexing table and rotated for each image" = Taking pictures from different angles

It doesn't matter if you move the object or the camera: you're just taking pictures from different angles. Like a mental patient.

Jim

12/14/2017 01:33:28 am

William, " A link tool of these are in my slide presentation." this is of no use when the link to your slide presentation does not work.
While I have you here, since you will not give me a link showing Joao Corte Real was in Newport in 1472 can you at least tell me your source ? You keep ducking this. If you cannot supply a source, I will assume you just made it up.

Jim

12/14/2017 03:07:25 am

Well, this shows the source of Williams hugely embellished story. Can we close the book on this ?
Any compelling evidence you would like to add William ?

https://www.ghi-dc.org/fileadmin/user_upload/GHI_Washington/Publications/Bulletin33/79.pdf

http://www.medievalhistories.com/expedition-newfoundland-1472/

Denise

12/14/2017 09:32:36 am

Aaaack! really? those are the "sources"? (actually I should say "source" since they both are referencing one story.) Heck even the second link is misleading onto itself,it states 1472 in it's title, but then proceeds to say the voyage was in 1473, with no mention in period sources of Newfoundland at all. There's nothing in the story to suggest otherwise. It's pure conflation, and nothing worth even arguing over. Disappointing, but at least we know where the date 1472 came from (I guess).

Well that's time I can't get back.

Jim

12/14/2017 01:54:28 pm

Well, at least you know,
In 1473, the Germans sailed the ocean blue.

Jim

12/15/2017 10:49:37 pm

As to the date of Pinings voyage and Corte-Reals involvement :

"Regardless, no sources explicitly supports that Pining and Pothorst had any connections with the journey by Corte-Real, nor that they reached North America (excluding Greenland).,,,,,,,,,,

In 1476 they made this trip, which likely went to Greenland, where they were reported to have encountered hostile Inuit, and no Norse people.[12] The location they visited is assumed by some to have been around Angmagssalik.[12] Nothing specific suggests it went further west than this.[13]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_Pining

Harold Edwards

12/15/2017 03:05:21 pm

You have all been rolled. As of this comment, there are 238 entries on this blog--90% have nothing to do with the topic at hand. The fact that the runes and the language on the Kensington Stone are from 19th Century practice in the Province of Dalarna Sweden was known shortly after the artifact was discovered in 1898. In early 1899 the Swedish expert Adolf Noreen said as much. In 1910 George Flom in his address before the Illinois State Historical Society, on page 117, gave a comparison of phrases on the runestone with 14th Century Norse practice and usage in 19th Century Dalarna. The excellent fit with the modern practice is a dead giveaway that this inscription was carved around 1898. The X-rune that is used for the letter "a" was not in use in the 14th Century anywhere in the Norse world and only after 1635 in Dalarna.

Toothpick or no toothpick, wear line or no wear line, this artifact is a late 19th Century hoax. Even if there were a wear line it is in an area below the inscription and would have been there before the text was carved. Mr. Smith has got you all to write about what he wants you to write about. Next he will no doubt discuss the variety of green cheese that makes up the moon.

David Bradbury

12/15/2017 03:54:31 pm

In a sense you're right of course- but consider the amount of effort William is putting into all this (and Inger from my Primesauce page is still at it after decades, now on her own blog so she can control adverse comments). I'm fascinated by the psychology of these loons.

Americanegro

12/15/2017 06:40:09 pm

"Mr. Smith" wanted me to write about how he is a thorazine dosed up mental patient?

Wow, I've really been bamboozled haven't I?

"HAROLD EDWARDS
12/15/2017 03:05:21 pm
You have all been rolled."

I'm feeling a Pompous Ass Alert coming on.

Harold Edwards

12/16/2017 12:23:20 pm

I do not enjoy Mr. Smith being insulted like this for expressing his views. I am not a fan of his views, but he does not deserve this. I have it on the good authority of people who know him that he is otherwise a decent man.

Mr. Colavito has allowed his blog to degenerate into endless invective. I cannot add to that, so I will no longer participate.

Good luck.

Americanegro

12/16/2017 12:38:43 pm

Looking forward to your next post!

"Mr. Smith has got you all to write about what he wants you to write about."

"I do not enjoy Mr. Smith being insulted like this for expressing his views."

Which is it Sally? Is MP the puppetmaster or the victim?

I note that when the racial slurs are being flung about you're nowhere to be found.

My Pompous Ass Alert prediction was right on the money.

Harold Edwards

12/16/2017 02:17:22 pm

I can't make up my mind. Am I feeling panties today or boxers? Worried about the wear line about my belly. I feel I've been rolled.

William M Smith is a Mental Patient

12/19/2017 01:38:04 am

I did a search on William M Smith on this site and he has been preaching his insanity for at least four years.

The Portuguese Goths preserved fish by boiling them in water and oil but not salting them, and coating them in oil to preserve them.

Nevermind the term "salt cod".

Cod was needed because of Fridays. And because there were no fish in Europe.

That required the building of a structure, the Newport Tower because everyone knows fish cannot be cooked at ground level.

The Newport Tower was a fish boilery, a fish smokery, and a dormitory for the boilers and smokers of said fish.

It was also a calendar, a clock, a tide calculator because traditionally that's what buildings are for, a lunar compass whatever that is.....an whatever else the mental patient comes up with. Oh, also it was a lighthouse sited below sea level so it could not be seen from the water.

There are no records among the English settlers about "Hey, we just got here but there's this bitchin' tower!"

Jim

12/18/2017 12:29:23 pm

A big round if applause to William for finally making a working link.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SkbEHSXI42fHrgyHBE2x6pfS5rZIHhZn/view

Read it and weep.

"Today's technology of navigation will allow a ship to be in two places at the same time in different years."

Americanegro

12/18/2017 02:20:47 pm

And Harold has a problem with calling WMS a mental patient. SMFH. Don't get me started on his font choices and layout decisions.

Jim

12/18/2017 02:40:00 pm

Current wackadoodleness

https://www.facebook.com/groups/149844915349213/permalink/580907938909573/

William M Smith

12/20/2017 04:50:42 pm

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SkbEHSXI42fHrgyHBE2x6pfS5rZIHhZn/view?usp=sharing

Jim

12/20/2017 06:33:46 pm

William, Please tell me you haven't invented this whole "lodestone compass" story with no evidence other than your mistaken belief that the words lode and load mean the same thing.

"( The lodestone compass implies it required loading)."

Yikes, Weight a minute now. (How many pounds is that ?) Need you be told that a lodestone is a naturally occurring stone made out of magnetite that has magnetic properties ? It is not any rock with a hole in it !

William M Smith

12/20/2017 10:33:39 pm

Slides 42 thru 78

Jim

12/20/2017 11:49:47 pm

But, there is no lodestone used in your compass. Since your mystery stone is quartzite shouldn't you call your compass a quartzite stone with a hole compass ?
By the way, the coordinates you give for where the Altomra sank ( Near Portland Maine ) are just a tich over 200 miles inland, in the middle of Greenland.

Americanegro

12/21/2017 04:43:15 pm

William M Smith is the Miles Mathis of whatever this field he thinks he's working in is called.

"The lower hole portion
shows a lot of straight marks
indicating the stone was loaded with
magnetite. This would generate a
magnetic field to charge the metal
needle in the compass."

William M Smith

12/21/2017 12:07:27 am

Slide 70 and slide 12

William M Smith

12/21/2017 04:54:44 pm

Slide 55

Jim

12/21/2017 05:31:11 pm

Slide 21,
Henry the navigater had no school. That nonsense is a popular misconception.

"Henry supported and defined the missions of his captains and patronized map makers and others who could make practical contributions to the progress of discovery. But he sponsored no "school" of pure science and mathematics, and his reputation as a patron of learning has been grossly inflated."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/people/history/spanish-and-portuguese-history-biographies/henry-navigator

"The view that Henry's court rapidly grew into the technological base for exploration, with a naval arsenal and an observatory, etc., although repeated in popular culture, has never been established.[9][10][11] Henry did possess geographical curiosity, and employed cartographers. Jehuda Cresques, a noted cartographer, has been said to have accepted an invitation to come to Portugal to make maps for the infante. This last incident probably accounts for the legend of the School of Sagres, which is now discredited."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Henry_the_Navigator

William M Smith

12/21/2017 05:41:31 pm

Slide 21 &22 (with 7 citations)

Jim

12/21/2017 06:14:29 pm

Adding citations with links that don't work, and just adding random citations without demonstrating where they apply to your work is just a wast of time.

Jim

12/21/2017 06:23:24 pm

Slide 7, second citation,

http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/mystery-four-golden-hats-bronze-age-002630/page/0/1

hahahahahahaha

Jim

12/21/2017 05:57:50 pm

Slide 22
The photo you show is of 20th century construction.

"Henry the Navigator,,,,,,,This probably led to the legend of the Nautical School of Sagres (although a "school" also means a group of followers). There was no centre of navigational science or any supposed observatory, if compared to the modern definition of "observatory" or "navigational centre". The centre of his expeditions was actually at Lagos, further to the east along the Algarve coast. Later Portuguese voyages left from Belém, just west of Lisbon."

"The exact location of Henry’s School of Navigation is not known (it is popularly believed to have been destroyed by the 1755 Lisbon earthquake"

" Normally compass roses are divided into 32 segments, but strangely this one has 40 segments (probably an error of the 20th-century restorers). It is unlikely to date back to the time of Henry the Navigator."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagres_Point

William M Smith

12/22/2017 01:32:39 pm

Jim

12/22/2017 02:38:55 pm

Er, um, you have used this citation in you description of L'anse Aux Meadows ! What do hats from the bronze age have to do with the Vikings ?
Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't you you had this and other reports out for years, and only now decided to add citations to make them seem more scientificy ?
Wondering around the internet years after you made these reports and cherry picking only links that work for you seems to be a textbook example of confirmation bias, no ?
You tell us (slide 8 ) that Point Rosee shows a Viking bog iron operation and more. You use this link as a citation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Rosee

From the link,, " However, Birgitta Wallace, an expert on the Viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, is unsure of the identification as a Norse site."

"Excavations in 2016 did not turn up any conclusive evidence of Viking presence.[11] Furthermore, the 2016 excavation proposed that the turf wall and bog ore discovered in 2015 were the result of natural processes"

William, do you even read the contents of your own citations ?

Jim

12/22/2017 05:13:41 pm

Still slide 7
Oh, I see why you cited the bronze age hats for your viking lunar compass. You couldn't cite anything about the viking lunar compass because you made the whole thing up !
The viking compass was solar, not lunar. It of course, could not discern longitude as you claim, but may have been able to roughly find latitude. Big difference ! You again completely misrepresented the actual findings to support your own BS.

https://phys.org/news/2013-04-errors-viking-sun-compass-hint.html

https://www.livescience.com/44366-vikings-sun-compass-after-sunset.html

Goodbye William, No point in arguing this complete nonsense anymore.

Americanegro

12/22/2017 06:20:29 pm

Slide 7 second citation. Is a citation to lunar navigation which I have an approved patent a[plication. This technology was recorded in the gold top hats by doing the first step in establishing the exact position of the moon at mid day for each day of its 26.6 year solar cycle.

Slide 7 second citation. Is a citation to lunar navigation which I have an approved patent a[plication. This technology was recorded in the gold top hats by doing the first step in establishing the exact position of the moon at mid day for each day of its 26.6 year solar cycle.

Slide 7 second citation. Is a citation to lunar navigation which I have an approved patent a[plication. This technology was recorded in the gold top hats by doing the first step in establishing the exact position of the moon at mid day for each day of its 26.6 year solar cycle.

Slide 7 second citation. Is a citation to lunar navigation which I have an approved patent a[plication. This technology was recorded in the gold top hats by doing the first step in establishing the exact position of the moon at mid day for each day of its 26.6 year solar cycle.

Slide 7 second citation. Is a citation to lunar navigation which I have an approved patent a[plication. This technology was recorded in the gold top hats by doing the first step in establishing the exact position of the moon at mid day for each day of its 26.6 year solar cycle.

Let's all sit with that for a moment, shall we? I think the grammar and the "gold top hats" make a pretty strong case

for an involuntary psychiatric hold.

Warreb

3/7/2019 07:21:54 pm

I love skeptics like you who have no imagination and can play the pathetic token fool in many a superb TV show. You're like the little fat kid too busy stuffing his face to have any friends or the kids in the back of the theater throwing popcorn at the audience to annoy them so they can't enjoy the show. Smug and self satisfied "debunkers" like you just enjoy being party poopers. Brimming with "evidence," you make your emotional conclusions way ahead of time and the seek to find the "evidence" later to meet your hypotheses. Just bad logic... there is none!

Bruce Wautson

1/10/2020 07:32:16 pm

Hey im a nobody but i do believe Scott might be right about the Kensington stone if you know how to read the map 14 days west. if you go to go to that location 3000 graves were found layed out in Christian fashion and have been dated at 1340. Thats all im going to say

Kent

4/1/2020 11:15:40 pm

That's obviously a lie. Care to comment?

William Smith

4/2/2020 10:11:43 am

Harold and others that at least took time to read the old presentation I posted. Just as Kent made his Shoot the messenger before hearing the message in recent post under the same old subject (Wolter).
Bruce - Scott Wolter has made many statements that do not hold water. I do not support his work because of his obvious motive and lack of facts.
The word dead with red and blood on the KRS was found by David Johnson (Rune research from Minn. and was part of a team that worked with the state of Mo. to establish and translate the (Kansas City Slater Rune Stone ) which is the only USA rune approved as fact and registered as an early industrial historical site. This is the only Rune stone approved by state academics.
The word dead according to dDavid is death and has a total different meaning. It implies the 10 men dead were not members of the 30 man team but 10 native Americans that contracted pneumonia and died because their body had no immune to this virus just as the virus today from China.
The 3000 graves layer out in Christian fashion that date back to 1340 do not have the same dates as if in battle and logic would say 3000/10 would not be an even battle. The same time the Mandans had a epidemic that killed 80 % of their trip was also matched in R.I. with the native Americans, however the medical study about 25 years ago (can't locate the link) if I recall 60 Native American bones were studied and found they died of pneumonia, the information was published by a grad student in a magazine, she was a female.
I assure you Scott Wolter does not know how to read a map made during the age of discovery.
My statement above is supported by current work under study with academics that are translating the many rune stones in America. An example is the map stone found at Spirit Pond. It is one of six messages if you count the amulet. It is the upper coast of Nova Scotia when orientated so north is not east as the arrow points. It has Vinland East and declination of 11 degrees west. We do feel we have the carver and date, however due to the trolls and Wolter followers I can not post prior to the academic approval.
When you see days as a runic unit of measure it in most cases is a standard unit of measure that equals 72 miles in English. The word north represents the true north from the spot of measurement. The KRS is 1 day south of the base camp, and the base camp is 14 days north of the base camp which is the mouth of the Nelson river into Hudson Bay.
Scott will never change his false public information and I recommend you look for the academic support behind these false facts. I have known him for many years and he has missed many people.
I will likely stand down on this site because it is about 90% critic to amateur and academic and 10% support from people like Harold and Jim. Kent will bait you for information then stab you in the back, Patrick is a member of Scott Team as was the late Zena and a few others.
Thanks for your post, Kent states Wolter's statements are a lie, I do not agree that he is a lier, I agree he has no academic proof for his claims. His status in the entertainment world today seems to top out on the radio fantasy sites, however his public exposure has made many to trust his self made image as the Templar, Masonic master of the new world.

William Smith

5/7/2021 04:12:08 pm

This is likely my last posting on this anti Scott Wolter site and anti authentic KRS site. It is amazing as to how Harold and a few other dumb asses has made a joke of a rock land marker in Mn, as well as placed the Ohman name in question for over 100 years. I would say they have a case in court with all of your unsupported bull shit against the true researchers in the field. Harold your bull shit on calcite is like your non supported report that no wear line exist. As a retired engineer with 3D measurement I understand a reference point must be established above, and bellow as well as side to side before a contour can be established. Their has been no points placed below the mechanical wear line to establish this. To prove how stupid you are I have a flatness gage which will be given to the museum to prove their is a .020 wear line on the stone. As for other information you have made Scott Wolter the goat, get ready because you and your friends on this site will be ther goat. The THOR group supports Scott Wolter, Dick Nielson, Henrick Williams and the State of Mn. in the facts that bear truth to the Kensington Rune Stone. These facts are being presented on YOUTUBE site in a format and work that not only shows the 5W's of the KRS, but also shows the complete story as how the HolyGrail and Templars reached America. Stay tuned to THOR on YouTube and you may learn just how few in this country do not stop because of your opinions.

William Smith

5/7/2021 04:24:12 pm

This is a link to YOUTUBE that may be of interest to the critics of Olof Ohman and Scott Wolter. When the truth is told in July of 2021 your bull shit will have been flushed. Not only has THOR and Scott proven Templars were in America. Their is a hooked I on the KRS. The stone dates to 1362, however it was carved in 1472 by John Scolvus. He made the trip to the KRS by way of Hudson Bay and two caravels with native guides, He made a return tricot Newport in a small tender ship with chieftain the peacemaker that started the first democracy in the USA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY_mIWxI1RQ

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