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The Agony and Ecstasy of Documentaries: Richard Thornton's Praise and L. A. Marzulli's AngerĀ 

9/26/2014

52 Comments

 
Before we begin today, I want to let everyone know that Aaron Adair, the author of The Star of Bethlehem: A Skeptical View, will be appearing on Paranormal Review radio tonight at 10 PM to talk about ancient astronauts. Many of you will know Aaron from his blog and from his occasional comments here on my blog. Be sure to check it out. I was asked to be on the show, too, but I can’t make the broadcast tonight. Aaron will undoubtedly do a great job!

Now on to more depressing news…
Richard Thornton, the Examiner.com writer who has parlayed his brief appearance on America Unearthed into supposed confirmation that the Mayans lived in Georgia, is promoting a new documentary that he says “will rock the world of anthropology to its roots.” Thornton begins his discussion with the false claim that anthropology and archaeology recognize no influence between Native groups across the Americas:
Euro-centric scholars have long viewed the indigenous peoples of the Americas as primitive societies that generally stayed in one place and that had little knowledge of what lay beyond the horizon. Architects and urban historians, in particular, have repeatedly pointed out the shared architectural traits of communities in several parts of the Americas, but were consistently ignored by anthropologists. No one within the anthropology profession of the United States could produce an explanation of how crops from South America and Mesoamerica ended up in North America, unless their seeds were carried by humans.
All of that is of course false, for many reasons. There is widespread acceptance of Mesoamerican influence on the southwestern United States, where Mesoamerican-style ball courts can be found. Similarly, a Mesoamerican blade was found at a Mississippian site in Spiro Mound in Oklahoma. Archaeologists have long suspected Mesoamerican influence on Mississippian iconography, though no direct evidence to support this has yet been found. But the transmission of ideas need not reflect the immigration of people. All it requires is for neighbors to share new things in a chain stretching from Mesoamerica on north. Maize, for example, could then spread up from Mexico, up the Mississippi and its tributaries, and into upstate New York without any given person going any farther than the neighboring village to share a few seeds.

Thornton next says that academics are in a conspiracy to suppress evidence of contact between Mesoamerican and Georgia. He cites the case of Arthur Kelly, who chaired the University of Georgia’s anthropology department until 1963. Thornton says he was sacked for advocating Mayan contact in Georgia, though it was a funny kind of sacking that left him a full professor until his retirement in 1969. I can’t find any evidence that, despite his peers’ rejection of his interpretation of Georgian material as Mesoamerican, he was in any way suppressed or sacked. After his death, several glowing tributes were published.

Thornton also says that Neo-Nazis and Satanists are using intimidation tactics to try to stop filmmaker Antara Brandner from reporting on the alleged Mayan connection to Georgia in her new documentary. Brandner’s previous film dealt with crop circles and environmentalism.

But rather than give any details about the documentary, Thornton instead recites his greatest hits, repeating claims he has been making nonstop for years. To this he has added a new one: He now claims to have found a connection to Peru and believes he has discovered large monumental Peruvian statues in Georgia:

Already, stone statues have been identified that are 16 feet and 28 feet tall. The shorter one is already out of the ground. It has not been decided how to move the larger statue safely out of a river gorge. They are the largest indigenous stone statues in the Americas.

Under Georgia law, it is legal to loot artifacts on private land, provided that the looter has written permission from the landowner and has notified the Georgia Department of Natural Resources in writing five days before the looting begins. Thornton did not indicate whether he met this minimal requirement, assuming that these statues are on private land. If they are on public land, it is simply illegal to touch them at all. It seems less likely that a river gorge would be private land, but without details there is no way to know.

But while Thornton is thrilled that a documentary is giving credence to his ideas, L. A. Marzulli, the Nephilim researcher and Christian fundamentalist, is deeply angry that another television documentary is making use of his ideas without giving him enough credit. Marzulli reports that another ancient mysteries researcher, whom he does not name (no, it’s not Scott Wolter), contacted him to discuss the hunt for lost “giant” skeletons without disclosing that he had a contract with a major television network to participate in what Marzulli calls a series of documentaries about the alleged giants.

Marzulli feels betrayed that his erstwhile colleague took advantage of research material he provided regarding a photograph of a supposed giant on Catalina Island without crediting Marzulli with the “discovery.” The researcher flew out to Catalina Island to view the original photograph after Marzulli described it to him. “While the picture that I discovered in the archives is not my property, the research and discovery of what turns out to be an 8.5 footer is.” In other words, Marzulli is claiming ownership over knowing that a photograph exists in an archive. Marzulli is upset that the documentary is scheduled to run in November and might lead people to believe that someone other than Marzulli was the first person to have seen the photograph in the archive in this current decade. (The archival material has been available to researchers for decades.) Honestly, I’m at a loss as to what exactly he’s mad about.
Picture
The Glidden Archive "giant" photograph, as presented by L. A. Marzulli on his blog.
The crux of the argument relates to a photograph of Ralph Glidden, the showman and fraud who displayed Native American bones in a grisly tableaux of Catalina Island and claimed a lost race of white giants lived there. Glidden’s photograph shows himself standing before a skeleton, which Marzulli claims is eight and half feet tall, based on mathematical modeling. It’s also cute that Marzulli calls contacting three “technicians” to examine the photograph without telling them about one another a “triple blind study.” (Later, he amends this to a “quadruple blind study” with four experts.) Marzulli has no idea what “blinding” really means.

The trouble is that Glidden is known to have faked a lot of his material, purchasing bones from elsewhere and staging fake digs for publicity. Since this alleged giant skeleton does not appear in the records of Glidden’s museum (only the photograph does), nor is there a record of it being sold off with other parts of his collection, the burden of proof is on Marzulli to prove that the bones depicted in the picture are real and ancient human bones. The staging of the scene looks extremely fake, and I would be hesitant to assume anything in Glidden’s photos is what it appears to be. The measurements calculated by the technicians also assume that the skeleton is fully articulated and laid out in a natural position. The photograph, however, seems to show a partially disarticulated skeleton, and any attempted measurement has to account for the original anatomical position of the bones. Arms, for example, do not typically emerge from skulls.

52 Comments
666
9/26/2014 06:14:50 am

Marzulli wants to mystify the rational, while others want to rationalise the mystical

Reply
lil ole me...
9/28/2014 03:00:25 am

TripleSix, the good folks on the internet radio program

Aaron Adair talked to are psyched and they really want

Jason to also go 'on air" real soon!!! Did you also know

that Daniel Holdings is a close friend of L.A Marzulli

and even critiqued Jason last November. He admires

Tom Horn. Tom Horn it turns out is a close friend of

Daniel Ott, and this by itself half explains the recent

guest list. Jason went into the phone call with the hope

of getting to an audience of roughly 3 million Bible

and Strong's Concordance literate Fundies. Arron Adair's

Friday nite interview went smoothly, and talk is of Jason

and an invite by the show's end. Jason is doing interviews!

Reply
EP
9/26/2014 07:24:20 am

I was going to mock the Nazi/Satanist paranoia, but then I saw that the Examiner article ends with something much worse:

"In order to do their fair share in the effort to squash “the Mayas in Georgia thing,” a group of juvenile anthropologists and students at the Universities of Georgia and Florida created a web site called, “How do you stop this tide of pseudo-archaeology?” They can accomplish this goal quickly by hauling their professor’s books on the Southeastern Native Americans to the local land fill, then start watching certain documentaries on television."

Just to reiterate: An article in a mainstream variety periodical is advocating DESTRUCTION OF BOOKS and their replacement with H2 fare (presumably).

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!?!

Reply
666
9/26/2014 07:34:20 am

>>>WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!?!

LOL
The same things apply to mainstream twaddle
Poppy heads are really pomegranates






Reply
EP
9/26/2014 07:36:10 am

666, that pomegranate thing wasn't funny the first time and isn't helping you appear sane.

666
9/26/2014 07:43:03 am

Last time I ate pomegranates I really received religious mystical experiences,

LOL

666
9/26/2014 07:44:19 am

Let's limit shamanism to central America and keep it away from the Middle East

LOL

EP
9/26/2014 07:46:45 am

"Let's limit shamanism to central America and keep it away from the Middle East"

Not sure if racism or just ignorance.

666
9/26/2014 07:52:02 am

Then shamanism existed in the Ancient Near East.
And the plants depicted on Babylonian reliefs are poppy-heads.
And entheogens were instrumental in the origin of human civilisation.

Shane Sullivan
9/26/2014 08:31:48 am

666, I'm no specialist in Babylonian floral depictions, but from a purely logical standpoint, you realize none of that follows, right?

Shamanism was historically found in many parts of the world =/= Shamanism was found in Babylonia;
Shamanism was found in Babylonia =/= Poppy heads on Babylonian reliefs;
For that matter, poppy heads on Babylonian reliefs =/= Shamanism in Babylonia.

And, finally, Babylonia wasn't the starting point of human civilization, so poppies and/or shamanism in Babylonia =/= "entheogens were instrumental in the origin of human civilisation."

Jason Colavito link
9/26/2014 07:36:01 am

Well, first, Examiner.com is a content farm with random material created by "citizen journalists," so it doesn't have any real credibility. It exists mostly to confuse readers into thinking it's a newspaper so they can serve up crippling amounts of advertising.

Second, Richard Thornton has been on this kick for years now. It's really nothing new for him. He hitched his wagon to Scott Wolter and has spent the last two years pumping up his connection to Wolter to give credibility to his most outrageous fantasies, which in the past have included the claim that the government is engaging in an all-out propaganda effort to paint him as a homosexual to stop him from revealing the truth about the Maya.

Reply
EP
9/26/2014 07:39:03 am

Jason, I realize it's not the New Yorker, but it's not an Internet 1.0 tinfoil amateur website either. And are you saying that "hauling their professor’s books to the local land fill" is par for the course with this guy?!

Jason Colavito link
9/26/2014 08:00:34 am

It is.

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/scott-wolter-and-richard-thornton-accuse-wikipedia-cherokees-and-forest-service-of-anti-wolter-conspiracy

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/richard-thornton-and-the-maya-of-georgia

EP
9/26/2014 08:28:19 am

Based on these discussions, advocating book destruction still strikes me as being extreme even by his standards, but at least I can now see how it coheres with with his overall mode of expression. (The latest article in general seems particularly unhinged, however.)

His ad hominems have some stylistic similarities with Von Daniken's (except Thornton self-publishes and thus doesn't get his hand held as much).

Aaron Adair link
9/26/2014 10:51:29 am

Thank you for the vote of confidence, Jason!

Reply
EP
9/26/2014 03:04:45 pm

Good luck, Aaron!

(One of the hosts just said that there are two sides to every story, and AA is no different... Ugh...)

Reply
The Other J.
9/29/2014 09:17:00 am

You did great on the show -- very succinct, clear, showing the answers to questions that don't seem obvious until they're pointed out. It sounded like the hosts were swayed, if not persuaded.

After you left they continued their discussion and it sort of devolved into "well if I can't conceive of it then ancient people couldn't have done it" territory, which was disappointing. But I think you planted some seeds -- one of the hosts, the guy, seemed genuinely conflicted about where he stood on something like the Baghdad battery or Pumapunku, and is still siding with the Tsoukalos side, but it's a shaky alliance.

Reply
Aaron Adair link
9/29/2014 03:28:00 pm

Thank you very much for that assessment. I think I could have worked better on succinctness since the time seemed to fly by, and the hosts said there were lots more topics to talk about. Heck, we didn't even get into interpreting ancient texts, which is where the real fun is at!

I may have planted some seeds of doubt, but the after-interview portion of the show made me think of something else to highlight. They were considering some of my objections to the AAT, such as why the aliens did a poor job of teaching us how to grow food. Their idea that maybe the aliens didn't know squat about that because they didn't need food. A very sci-fi notion, but a speculation. And that is the rub that actually makes the AAT less probable. It's an ad hoc addition, and running the math that will bring down the probability of the theory being true the same way the evidence itself does. But this sort of argument fills a need in us to explain things; so long as something seems possible it isn't ruled out or just as worthy of consideration. And that goes against inductive/abductive reasoning. Too bad it may not be a show where I can get into Bayes's theorem. But one can hope...

EP
9/29/2014 04:50:25 pm

"It's an ad hoc addition, and running the math that will bring down the probability of the theory being true the same way the evidence itself does."

You mention that you have Bayes's Theorem in mind, but I'm still not quite sure what you're saying here.

Whether it's an addition, ad hoc or otherwise, depends on whether we ought to have conditionalized on it antecedently in determining the probability of AAT, which, at least in standard Bayesianism, it seems we should have. And if so, then it won't bring down probability, because you're not supposed to conditionalize again just because it's been made salient. If, on the other hand, you conditionalize on its prior probability, then whether it brings down AAT's probability depends on what your priors are.

The way I see it, the problem with the "ad hoc" reasoning, which you quite correctly pointed out, is that it equivocates epistemic possibility and empirical viability of theories. It's analogous to the fallacy committed by many (often self-satisfied) "village skeptics", who think that their inability to refute The Matrix is somehow significant. But that's not something that you need to bring in Bayesianism to explain...

Or perhaps I'm not getting what you're saying at all...

On a different topic, while it would be bad form for me to come across as inviting you to badmouth your hosts, I must say that I couldn't finish it because I found the guy so annoying. He's such a pretentious airhead, that you really wouldn't have been able to get much further with him in any other format either.

Aaron Adair link
9/29/2014 05:56:50 pm

With the ad hoc hypothesis, it messes with the priors. You first have a prior probability of AAT, call it P(A). Then you have the additional condition that the aliens must be of a certain type, such as they don't eat food to take the example from the aftershow. What's the probability that an alien doesn't need food. It's definitely not 100%, but let's call it P(B). So, if you include this ad hoc addition, the new prior probability is P(A+B) which is less than or equal to P(A). And considering P(B) is probably very small (the idea of a sentient being not needing food is against the laws of physics, i.e., 2nd law of thermo), and P(B) is independent of P(A) since being an alien in no way entails you don't need food, P(A+B)=P(A)*P(B)<P(A). And since P(B) is very small, P(A+B)<<P(A). So the ad hoc addition really brings down the prior probability because you need both propositions A and B to both be true. So just imagining something that is neither something your original thesis entails nor is itself very likely makes your priors drop. And often just as much as the evidence would have otherwise.

Hope that clarifies. Of course, if you want this all hard-core I will have to point you to E.T. Jaynes's book on probability theory. And only now do I realize the coincidental nature of those initials.

The Other J.
9/30/2014 12:38:40 am

*applause*

I was part-way through your first response when I thought "too bad they couldn't get into Bayesianism," and then you not only brought it up, but your explanation seemed really clear to me (a non-specialist). Your students are lucky.

But yeah, just introducing the lack of need for food introduces another probability that's going to reduce the likelihood of the claim being true. I saw on the Washington University site that there's a Bayesian toolbox, a java software kit to run probability analysis (most recently updated this past May). I don't know if the software would work for this, but it'd be interesting for a guest like yourself or Jason to get a couple claims from the hosts of a paranormal show ahead of the appearance, run the probabilities, and then bring the data onto the show.

EP
9/30/2014 01:32:17 pm

Aaron, I appreciate your offer of referring me to a textbook, but I'm pretty good at this stuff :)

Also, while everything you're said in your latest post is (leaving aside the question of independence, which is doubtful) obvioulsy correct, it doesn't really address my concerns. I don't know whether you are interested in what I have to say, but if you are, I'm happy to explain myself further. Otherwise, it could get too technical and off-topic for this blog. (This isn't me being evasive, btw - if anything, I'm too lazy to write extensive posts which I worry might be of interest to no one whatsoever...)

Kal
9/26/2014 02:24:12 pm

Nothing to see here, to quote South Park. Mayans in Georgia based upon an English, sounding word for lake, (maia), via the H2 AU hucksters, is nothing more than saying the skunk ape is real or the chupacabra isn't really some kind of messed up wild boar. This doesn't prove there are any obvious conspiracies. The ancient natives traveled and were smart. It's no surprising that villages traded with European colonists later. I thought this whole Mayan thing died out with that 2012 hoax everyone was pushing until it turned 2013, and all along the original descendants of Mayans were saying the calendar was never a doomsday clock, but just a calender. Nobody from that fringe has even apologized for the hoax. Nobody's even been called on it really. Unless one of you know of a site where someone did.

Reply
Not the Comte de Saint Germain
9/26/2014 04:37:52 pm

Nope. But a lot of the New Agers didn't expect an apocalypse, just a "transformation of consciousness" and a new astrological age, the same one New Agers have been awaiting since their subculture emerged in the 1960s. The media picked up on the doomsday predictions even though there weren't many people who expected doomsday. The number of people who were joking about the end of the world in December 2012 was vastly greater than the number who actually expected it to happen. In contrast, the original New Age concept was so vague and unfalsifiable that its advocates can (and do) still say something fundamental changed in people's consciounesses, or better yet, their subconscious minds. There's no proving or disproving that.

Reply
EP
9/26/2014 04:43:50 pm

Did you go to an end of the world party on that day? I did. It was rather lame, unfortunately :(

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
9/26/2014 04:53:21 pm

No. I did my celebrating earlier in the year, by writing this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=499226538

If I wrote it now I would include a bit more fundie apocalypticism.

EP
9/26/2014 04:58:57 pm

Does not refer to Ley Lines or the fact that Queen Victoria was a man. Your research is quite shoddy :)

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
9/26/2014 05:04:53 pm

Yes, it does refer to ley lines. Look carefully at where the links lead. (A couple of them don't work anymore, unfortunately; one was the website of a bona fide worshiper of Enki.)

EP
9/26/2014 05:07:50 pm

Oh well. At least we'll always have Mr. Supriem...

Only Me
9/26/2014 05:34:11 pm

HOLY SHAZBOT, NtCdSG! I don't know how you found the time to cobble all that together, but you really made my day. Thank you!

Now when I'm bored, I can look into all the stuff you squeezed into that write-up.

EP
9/26/2014 05:37:55 pm

If any of it is news to you, you're a lightweight, Only Me :P

Only Me
9/26/2014 05:54:51 pm

I'll admit, EP, I haven't the exposure, resources or general knowledge of the conspiracy-alternate history-alien genre that some of you seem to have, but I also admit I don't have the patience to "get my hands dirty" with a lot of it, either. I honestly feel the thought processes in the ol' organic computer shutting down, as if to protect itself from what it considers a virus.

Thanks to the contributions of yourself, Not the Comte, spookyparadigm and others, I'm seeing just how widespread this stuff really is. If I may be so bold, it makes me believe that "Idiocracy" is more of a prediction than a movie.

EP
9/26/2014 05:57:43 pm

"Idiot" is an old-timey euphemism, Only Me. If we had a literal "idiocracy", we'd not have to deal with much of this.

First in line for the bus to the re-education camps would be assholes who talk about destroying books so we have more time to watch H2 :)

The Other J.
9/26/2014 07:05:30 pm

"If any of it is news to you, you're a lightweight, Only Me :P"

I wish more of it was news to me... that's depressing.

Graham
9/26/2014 08:14:57 pm

You should see what John Major-Jenkins had to say about that, first he claimed the world would end, (1998), then as the event got closer denied saying the world would end:

http://podcast.sjrdesign.net/shownotes_077.php

EP
9/27/2014 05:20:27 am

He's got nothing on the guy who claimed that his intercession on humanity's behalf *saved* us from the 2012 apocalypse!

JaredMithrandir link
9/27/2014 04:44:44 am

The Problem with the Star of Bethlehem is people thinking it has to be something unique or Special.

What the text says the magi said is "We observed his star". The Language implies the Start was always there and always thought of as "his". It simply did something special.

And the reason they went to Bethlehem isn't the Star, but the Prophecy form Malachi.

he Star was Jupiter, the activity in question was it's very rare tipple Conjunction with Regulus.

Reply
EP
9/27/2014 04:47:43 am

Do you think the Magi rode dinosaurs to Bethlehem? I mean, the Bible doesn't say they didn't and it would be SO COOL!

Reply
Only Me
9/27/2014 12:42:50 pm

It's cool if that's your "creative interpretation" of the Star, but I think Jupiter being behind the inspiration of the Star has already been looked at and discounted.

Reply
Aaron Adair link
9/27/2014 12:50:51 pm

Considering the 2 centuries that some theologians and scientists have made claims about the Star, I think you shouldn't claim what it was so simply--especially when the conjunction you speak of requires redating the death of Herod the Great to make the theory work. And there is a lot more to the description of the Star than "we saw it". There is a reason I wrote a book on the subject.

Reply
JaredMithrandir link
9/27/2014 12:58:02 pm

The 4 BC date for Herod's Death is ridiculous on it's own for many reasons.

All the Ancient Church Fathers dated the Birth of Christ to 2 or 3 BC.

Only Me
9/27/2014 01:22:00 pm

If church fathers used the nativity accounts, as scholars have done, then they would have placed the birth of Christ between 6 and 4 BC. Josephus asserts Herod died in 4 BC, which is a date most scholars agree on, thanks to the work of Emil Schürer.

You may not agree with this, but that doesn't help identify what the Star of Bethlehem actually was.

Also, how do you reconcile "I'm a Christian, I take the Bible literally" with "The Problem with the Star of Bethlehem is people thinking it has to be something unique or Special"? You're saying the account of how it moved and guided the wise men isn't special? So much for taking the Bible literally.

EP
9/27/2014 01:45:27 pm

Aaron, I have a question. Why are we so sure that the Star is an astronomical entity at all? (I mean, we may think that it's fictional, but a fictional astronomical entity of some sort...)

I wonder whether there is room for alternative explanations, which do not involve heavenly bodies...

Aaron Adair link
9/27/2014 04:55:52 pm

@JaredMithrandir: the church fathers derived their belief of the 3/2 BCE birth year from a simple but flawed calculation. In Luke 3 it says Jesus was baptized by John when JC was "about 30". Since we don't know when the baptism happened, and "about" leaves a lot of wiggle room; for example: if JC were 34 and came to John in 29 CE, that would put Jesus's birth in 6 BCE. So, even assuming all the details from the Gospels are correct on these points, there isn't strong reason to go from the 3/2 BCE date.

Also, if you want to use the church fathers, note that all of them believed the Star to have been supernatural and not explicable by astronomy or astrology. Which leads me to

@EP: most probably jump to thinking about astronomy and astrology because the object is called a star (αστηρ). But the object does things no star or planet could do, such as guide people south to Bethlehem and then stop over a particular house. I suggested a connection to the Julian star, specifically the version of it found in the Aeneid, along with appropriate biblical influence (Num 24:17), so it was not an astronomical body in my view.

J.A Dickey
9/28/2014 03:14:14 am

Aaron, rather than Venus or Saturn conjunct Jupiter or Mars,
why not a brief but spectacular supernova that is conjunct
Jupiter. Astronomy circa the reign of Augustus Caesar is
dominated by Aristotle, Ptolemy has yet to be born. The
movements of the planets are almost regular and predictable.
A grand celestial event other than a comet that is equally
spectacular is hypothetically a supernova. Zeus rules Olympus.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

JaredMithrandir link
9/28/2014 06:25:08 am

"Began to be about 30" clearly means soon after he turned 30. He was born in Tishri 1, there are symbolic reason I think the Baptism could have been Tishri 10.

It's also interesting that during the first Jputer Regulus conjunction the Sun and Moon were in Virgo matching the description of Revelation 12.

People have written in depth on why that Understanding of Jospehus on the Death of Herod is wrong and reconcilbe with all the facts.

Aaron Adair link
9/28/2014 06:46:39 am

@J.A.: the supernova hypothesis has the issue that we have no record of a supernova before the death of Herod; some argued about a comet in 5 BCE as being a nova, but the evidence is strongly against it. We also have no records that really tell us what the ancients would have thought of a supernova. If they interpreted like a comet, then it's a bad omen. Most importantly, novae cannot do the things the Star is described as doing.

@JaredMithrandir: How you can say "about" means "soon after" is beyond me. That is mere assertion, I'm sorry to say. Moreover, if you really want to press what is said by Luke, you will be stuck with the problem that Luke says Jesus was born in 6/7 CE.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/quirinius.html

The stuff happening in Rev 12 is rather symbolic, so you should, at least, be very careful in interpreting it. My reading suggests it is about the resurrection/rebirth, rather than the birth, of Jesus.

I know there has been literature on trying to fit Josephus's statements about when Herod died into a new chronology, but they all fail. I have read all of the attempts, and they don't hold water. I discuss this to some degree in my review of the Star of Bethlehem Documentary:
https://gilgamesh42.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/the-star-of-bethlehem-documentary-a-critiical-view-index/

Lastly, you have ignored my point about how all ancient Christians said the Star was miraculous; if you want to use the Church Fathers as authorities on the matter, make sure you actually pay attention to all that they have to say.

EP
9/27/2014 05:43:39 pm

@ Aaron

Wait, "Julian Star" is a comet, right? Doesn't it make it an astronomical body? Perhaps my terminology is screwed up, but what I meant is a non-astronomical interpretation - one where the Star is not a star, a planet, a comet, or any combination thereof (real or fictional).

In particular, I wonder whether the Star could be connected to "Holy Spirit" somehow...

All of this is pure speculation on my part, but I wanted to ask you whether any completely non-astronomical interpretations have been seriously discussed.

Reply
Aaron Adair link
9/28/2014 06:37:50 am

The actual Julian star was a comet, but it was believed by many (or at least part of the Julian propaganda machine) to be Caesar's soul ascending to heaven--early sources also thought it was a new star rather than a comet, so that made it all the more amazing. So it was not an astronomical phenomenon in the minds of the faithful, it seems.

As for the Holy Spirit connection, that's hardly an an absurd idea. Some have related to the Star to the Shekhinah glory of God, others to the pillar of fire that led the Jews out of Egypt and into the promised land. But in either case it's hard to get to that to fit with something called a star that rose up on the horizon. The interpretation by the magi also suggests to many something that had to deal with astronomy/astrology because the magi were believed to by astrologers.

Reply
EP
9/28/2014 12:42:06 pm

Aaron, I have checked the original Greek and it does seem to be a lot more unambiguously astronomical than I had originally supposed.

Since I don't like metaphorical readings when they are optional, I'd need to have better idea of Matthew's general style before I could sensibly develop my proposal.

In the meantime, who proposed the Shekhinah connection? I don't believe you discuss it in your Zygon paper and I don't have your book handy atm...

Aaron Adair link
9/28/2014 02:44:03 pm

I think the oldest source on the Shekhinah glory being associated with the Star is from Kenneth Boa and William Proctor in 1980, "The Return of the Star of Bethlehem". It grew out of the divinity degree that Boa earned from Dallas Theological Seminary in the 70s. The claim about Shekhinak and the Star also seemed to be littered around various evangelical websites. Google brings up a lot of results about that. But the association between the Star and the Pillar of Fire go back at least to Aquinas.

Day Late And Dollar Short
2/26/2015 07:30:02 am

I am curious about the stone statues Thornton has (allegedly?) found. Is this just a claim, or was the smaller of the statues moved by one of the organizations he is associated with? I was hoping to find a picture, or article, but have come up short.

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          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Byzantine World Chronicle
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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