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The Cathars and Mary Magdalene: The Account of Peter of Les Vaux-de-Cernay

1/7/2014

65 Comments

 
This morning I read Esquire’s fascinating piece on Eben Alexander III, the neurosurgeon who claimed to have visited heaven while in what his attending physician described as a medically-induced coma that Alexander would late claimed was caused by the bacterial infection the coma was used to treat. The magazine found a disturbing pattern of Alexander fudging facts and altering details, extending to several malpractice suits, which he settled out of court.

While this does not directly affect the alleged reality of his afterlife vision, what I found interesting was something related directly to his book about heaven: According to emails he exchanged with his physician in preparing the book, he purposely chose to introduce inaccuracies into his description of her in order to create a better story—in a supposedly “scientific” account of the afterlife—even after asking her for the right facts. He wrote to her that the inaccuracies were “artistic license” and that his story was “dramatized, so it may not be exactly how it went, but it’s supposed to be interesting for readers.” These are nearly the words of Erich von Däniken when he told Playboy that he used in “theatrical effects” and had not felt the need to tell “the truth concerning [...] various other little things.”

Alexander, when pressed, told the magazine that his experiences should not be taken as proof of the afterlife and that it is arrogant for anyone to claim such proof. Yet he is also working on a new book in which he plans to publish the first of many revelations he said God gave him in heaven, and he’s helping turn his heavenly visit into a movie. He also has several convenient ways you can pay him for various products and services revolving around mystical revelations.

I guess some people value the narrative above its component parts and can excuse fabrications, lies, or lapses in logic as minor disturbances in a story that is prima facie true for other reasons. Other people value the component parts above the narrative and see the narrative as a conditional interpretation that has value only insofar as the evidence supports it. And the people who promote the narrative view have no trouble faking facts, fudging events, and rewriting inconvenient truths to help support the narrative.

A case in point is the Holy Bloodline Conspiracy, the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had children and that these children gave rise to European royalty, who promptly hid all evidence of it to keep the commoners believing in the divinity of Jesus. It’s a narrative, and one supported by almost no actual documentary evidence—just an endless round of mutually-reinforcing speculation derived from The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail and popularized by The Da Vinci Code. And sometimes what little evidence there is contradicts the narrative, and no one cares.

In developing my book of texts used in fringe theories, I found that the alleged support for the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married seems to take its indirect inspiration from secondhand versions of a medieval account of Cathar beliefs, the same beliefs that are also used to support the idea that there is a secret cult of dualists who worship the sacred feminine. This emerges from Holy Blood, where the authors summarize the following medieval text but don’t appear to have read it. When Scott Wolter and Alan Butler follow Holy Blood and declare the Cathars to be in league with the Templars (contrary to historical records) and the protectors of the Holy Bloodline, they would do well to note the evidence from the thirteenth century, which takes some of the wind from the Holy Bloodline sails.

The following text was written by Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay in his Historia Albigensis sometime between 1212 and 1218, describing the events of the Albigensian Crusade to wipe out the Cathars. Although Peter was an orthodox Catholic and firmly on the side of Roman Catholicism, his account is believed to have preserved more accurate versions of Cathar beliefs than those of other anti-Cathar writers, albeit not without some exaggeration. The passage of Peter’s text below has been translated (so far as I know) in the 1800s (secondhand from a quotation in the works of Raynaldi) and (from the original document) in 1969 and again in 1998, with each translation reprinted in other subsequent texts. Despite this, few fringe historians seem to be aware of its contents. As I mentioned, Holy Blood fails to credit the document, and Laurence Gardner’s Bloodline of the Holy Grail is equally ignorant of it, making claims it contradicts about Cathar beliefs about Jesus and Mary Magdalene while betraying no knowledge of…well, you’ll see.

What follows is my own translation, directly from the Latin (Bible references added by me):

First, it should be known that the heretics [the Cathars] propose the existence of two creators, one of things invisible, whom they call the benign God, and one of things visible, whom they name the evil God. They attribute the New Testament to the benign God and the Old to the malign God, and they repudiate all of the Old Testament except for certain passages included in the New Testament, which they judge to be appropriate because of their respect for the New Testament. They assert that the author of the Old Testament is a liar, for he said to the first created man: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:17), yet they did not die after eating of it, as he had said they would—though in reality after eating of the forbidden fruit they became subject to death. They also called him a murderer because he incinerated the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed the world by the waters of the Flood, and overwhelmed Pharaoh and the Egyptians with the sea. They declared that all of the patriarchs of the Old Testament were damned; they asserted that John the Baptist was one of the greatest devils.  And they also said in their secret meetings that the Christ who was born in the earthly and visible Bethlehem and crucified in Jerusalem was evil; and that Mary Magdalene was his concubine; and that she was the woman taken in adultery of whom we read in Scripture (John 8:3). Indeed, the good Christ they say neither ate nor drank nor assumed the true flesh, nor was he ever in this world except spiritually in the body of Paul. But for this reason we say “in the earthly and visible Bethlehem”: The heretics believe there to be another earth, new and invisible, and in this second earth some of them believe the good Christ was crucified. Likewise, the heretics say the good God had two wives, Colla and Colliba, and from these he begat sons and daughters. There were other heretics who said that there was one Creator, but that he had as sons both Christ and the Devil. They said that all creatures were once good but that from the vials of which we read in the Apocalypse (Revelation 16:1-21), all were corrupted.

If we are to believe Peter, the Cathars considered Mary Magdalene the concubine of an evil monster! This hardly squares with the image of the Cathars as venerating Mary as a goddess. Worse, since her paramour was evil, her children by him must perforce be evil, too. Why would the Cathars protect and cherish the bloodline of evil?

It’s also interesting to note that Colla and Colliba (also given in other printings as Collant and Colibant because, of course, no one can agree on what the manuscript says), the alleged wives of God, are probably identical with Oolah and Ooliba (Aholah and Aholibah) the sister-whores from Ezekiel 23:4 who symbolize Israel and Judah and are described as brides of God. French scholars suggested that the corruption occurred in trying to transliterate the Hebrew alef which begins each name into French, where a “C” was the closest to the Hebrew guttural sound.

The final line, about the vials, is subject to dispute. The Latin as I have it reads “filias” (daughters) in all the printed texts I’ve found, but it seems probable (as the 1969 and 1998 translators conclude) that this is a mistake for “fialas” (vials, drinking plates), the word used in the Vulgate version of Revelation, where they unleash corruption on the world. If not, then the reference to Revelation is wrong and the daughters would be the human women from Genesis 6:1-4 (as Raynaldi adds in a marginal note), who consorted with the Sons of God. Either version could be supported from Peter’s text, and the translations and discussions I’ve reviewed are about evenly divided between the two readings, with more recent writers tending to favor vials.

I’m actually a bit surprised that there are so many variations in the printed Latin texts of this passage, but they are all clear on one thing: The Cathars held that Jesus was evil and Mary Magdalene was his demonic concubine. Shockingly, those fringe writers whose work I reviewed in conjunction with my translation and who claim to speak for the Cathars seem not to want to deal with this, even if only to dismiss it as papal propaganda.

65 Comments
Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 06:00:09 am

Wasn't this a satire on the Papal version of Christianity who believed in a corporeal Christ, that the earthly Jesus Christ would have been married and therefore that was why Roman Catholic Dogma was wrong. The Cathars believed in an incorporeal Christ.

Reply
Steve
1/7/2014 12:27:18 pm

Jason wrote, "What follows is my own translation, directly from the Latin (Bible references added by me)"

Did you translate it, Jason? Or did you cut and paste into Google Translate and let them translate it?

If you actually translated it, I salute you. I know several people who study Latin; it's quite difficult. But that opens it up to your interpretation of any subtleties in that note by les Vaux-de-Cernay.

If Google Translate did it, it is open to debate. See this blog post on the mistakes in machine translation,
http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2013/06/lorem-ipsum-google-translate.html

In translation, even by experts and even in much-used languages, subtleties of meaning can be missed. When I'm studying important medieval land transfer documents I have used professional Latin translation sources, and even then it's best to have two people working separately with the same document to see if they have different interpretations.

Note: I'm not saying the general meaning would be drastically different. But a great deal more can be learned by using expert translation which is then verified, and by studying the context of the writer; in this case les Vaux-de-Cernay.

As of 2010, Latin was in "alpha" meaning they know it's not perfect. I haven't seen anything saying it's passed "beta." Open source software is often made publicly available in the alpha phase.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/7/2014 12:42:06 pm

I know that since you are steeped in a world where people routinely choose exaggeration over honesty and self-aggrandizement over accuracy, it can be hard to separate truth from lies; but when I say I translated it, it is because I have been a reader of Latin since I was a teenager. All of my translations are my own, but if you want to verify them, you are welcome to read the 1800s translation I linked to in the article (or any other translation), and I'll be happy to provide a link to the original Latin text. It says what I said it says.

You might also note that I have also translated pieces in many languages, ranging from the Orphic Argonautica and selected Fabulae of Hyginus to "The Xipehuz" and the pyramid material of Al-Maqrizi's Al-Khitat. I have also, on this blog, published translations of passages from dozens of Classical texts used by fringe theorists.

Therefore, I will take your salute and ignore your implication of deception.

Steve
1/7/2014 01:01:05 pm

Touchy, touchy.

I wasn't implying "deception," only that your readers routinely take every stroke of your keypad as gospel.

I do not.

Your failures of cut and paste have been demonstrated to me personally when you somehow "inadvertently" added words that were never written on my family DNA site.

Dave Lewis
1/7/2014 01:28:51 pm

Your note concerning translation is rather rude.

RLewis
1/8/2014 12:46:22 am

Ah, there's no Agenda like an Hidden Agenda.

Pacal
1/8/2014 04:08:47 am

Pacal
1/8/2014 04:20:02 am

Steve just why did you assume it possible that Jason didn't translate it himself but used Google Translate? All your venting about the problems of translating a document and the defects of Google Translate seem to be beside the point.

Steve
1/8/2014 06:45:14 am

Pacal,

I didn't "assume" anything. I raised 2 possibilities. I don't know many people who can accurately translate Latin. Also, I question most of what I read, especially from blog pundits.

Many in this group also claim to be skeptics, yet never question anything from Jason's keyboard. As I said in a followup response to Jason, I have personal experience with Jason adding words (and meaning) to something on my website that bent the information to fit his storyline. He denied motive and put it down as a mistake. I find that hard to believe, but I'm not a mind reader. Readers here could have checked what he wrote regarding my DNA website page he was "quoting." Yet NONE did. Not one of you checked his "facts" in that case, and I daresay any other cases. Why would it be, in a group who claim to be skeptics and academics, there is no peer review or even fact checking of Jason's posts?

Net result: Anything I read here gets questioned.

As to my "venting about the problems of translating a document and the defects of Google Translate" being "beside the point." Thanks for your opinion. First, I wasn't "venting." It's simple fact that you can read more about on your own. Second. It would not have been "beside the point" had Jason answered that he used Google Translate. I don't know Jason's history and didn't know that he's studied Latin. It was a simple question. BTW, there's nothing wrong with using Google Translate as long as it's flagged as such for the readers.

My, my, how this group gets upset if someone questions Jason.

Varika
1/8/2014 07:50:57 am

...actually, Steve, I DID check Jason's quotes of your website at least once--and found them to be accurate at that time. I simply didn't feel the need to post "ZOMG JASON IS RIGHT AND STEVE IS WRONG!" as I rather thought it would be rude. And pointless. I have also disagreed openly with Jason's interpretation--see "zombies"--and also not as openly online but definitely offline. (These latter have been things that I didn't feel were particularly worth the online kerfluffle.)

The real problem is that you don't "question" Jason, you openly insult and put down Jason. If you really wanted to QUESTION Jason on the translation, for instance, you could have said, "Just to clarify, Jason, what are your credentials for translating Latin? I've got a heightened awareness of the fallacies of online translation tools recently, so I just want to know." Instead, you went a passive-aggressive patronizing route that clearly emphasizes an insulting belief--regardless of what you claim--that Jason only tossed it into Google Translate and ran with it. You then FURTHER turned around in subsequent posts and openly insulted the readers of Jason's blog--and now you're surprised that people are not falling docilely into your viewpoint? Nobody's "upset if someone questions Jason," we're annoyed that you have personally insulted the rest of us!

Just so you can't claim that you haven't:
- "your readers routinely take every stroke of your keypad as gospel."
- "Many in this group also claim to be skeptics, yet never question anything from Jason's keyboard."
- "Readers here could have checked what he wrote...Yet NONE did."
- "Not one of you checked his "facts" in that case, and I daresay any other cases."
- "Why would it be, in a group who claim to be skeptics and academics, there is no peer review or even fact checking of Jason's posts?"

Not only are all these things insulting, they're actively untrue, as well. And to be frankly honest, you come across as a complete bully, sir. I refuse to bow to bullies. I find them to be contemptible and usually cowardly, and invariably liars, too.

Grow up and become a human being instead of a troll.

Pacal
1/8/2014 08:42:36 am

Steve you complain about "us" being touchy. The irony is delicious. As for not assuming I said "why did you assume it possible that Jason didn't translate it himself but used Google Translate?" Jason made no such claim about using Google Translate so just where did you get this "possibility", why did you assume it even has a possibility? When a reading of Jason's website would indicate Jason's expertise with languages. As for your other possibility. Why did you not simply find a translation of Peter and compared it to Jason's.? That is exactly what I did when I first read Jason's translation. I have checked some but not all of Jason's blog postings so I do not just accept everything Jason says. Since it turns out that Jason did in fact translate the text without Google Translate it appears that my description of your possibilities of being beside the point are exactly right.

Of course your comments now that there is nothing wrong with using Google Translate if it is said up front do not go well with comments about how not good Google Translate is and about how difficult translation is. It is obvious to me what you were trying to do. I just note that you did not check the translation like I did but instead raised "possibilities" of a negative nature both of which turned out to be wrong.

Steve
1/8/2014 10:17:26 am



Varika,

Thanks so much for reading my mind and knowing so much about me. Amazing powers you have.

If you re-read my original comment that's generating so much angst here, and take out your hatred of anything I post, you can easily read it as NOT being rude. I was, in fact, simply questioning his process. But you read it as passive-aggressively patronizing him. Thanks so much for your opinion. But I understand. Given that I have a "history of insulting him" here, all his acolytes' first instinct is to leap to attack me.

"You then FURTHER turned around in subsequent posts and openly insulted the readers of Jason's blog"

Quite right. To be specific, I am openly insulting those readers of Jason's blog who do not fact check him and then openly report it here. That keeps it honest and useful discussion for neophytes who wander into this hornets' nest (yes, delicate Varika, another insult). Further qualifying my statement, those who join in the personal attacks here against Woter, his family, his guests, and anyone else who might disagree with their worldview, get used to it. People like me will show up from time to time. The definition of "troll" is not someone who openly and honestly calls you on your arrogance, Varika.

If you're upset about contention, then you've certainly come to the right place. There is seldom anyone who ventures into this hornet's nest and honestly takes on this arrogant mob. So, for the most part, you're safe.

"When a reading of Jason's website would indicate Jason's expertise with languages." I haven't read that much of his website, Varika. So your point is useless. You can keep beating on it, though.

"…my description of your possibilities of being beside the point are exactly right." Congratulations, Varika. Being "right" seems very important to you. And you're not just right, you're "exactly right."

"I just note that you did not check the translation like I did…" Back to your arrogant mind reading. I actually looked around the web quite a bit on this one, not just comparing the translation, but looking to see how Google Translate handled parts of the original. I'm very interested in that time period and particular abbeys, so this research led me to other facts of interest - none of which would further the goal of this blog to personally berate Scott or people who believe the Templar lore, so I'll save it for someplace where such research is welcomed.

Your entire argument in this last comment hinges on your ability to read minds. That renders most of it a waste of time. But congratulations on developing such an astounding ability. It will serve you well with your fellow mob members when anyone else dares to question Jason.

"...actually, Steve, I DID check Jason's quotes of your website at least once--and found them to be accurate at that time." Wow, you checked one of Jason's quotes on my website. Wow. Case closed for Varika. Right off the top of my head, I can give you two examples, but that ground has been well-trod, and heavily-denied, so we'll let it "lie".

You, sir, are duplicitous. I am a bully for being "insulting." Yet you never accuse the multitude of others in these comments who resort to vile attacks, personal insults, even libelous claims. Why? I suggest it's because you agree with their opinions. Mob behavior usually follows this pattern. You know in your heart you should stand up and say something when it gets this ugly, but you don't.

Like you, I also refuse to cower to bullies, like these. Like you, I too find bullies to be contemptible and usually cowardly, and invariably liars, too. From time to time, it gets so bad that Jason even weighs in to shut down people like Tara when her vile statements venture into legal land. (See Lost Tribe of Menehune comments and feel free to scold Tara for being "insulting" Varika. You neglected to do that. Why? Are you just inconsistent, or are you duplicitous?)

Since you posted 4 comments to the Menehune post, It's clear to me you were following the "pile on fun" that you helped perpetuate against Rebecca. You also likely saw Tara's contemptible, very personal attacks against Scott. Any comments from you? Of course not.

To use your comments in the Menehune post with slight variations, "Anyone who puts a [blog] out there is opening the [blog] up for criticism, and they have to learn to just deal with it." Same goes for those who comment, Varika. "…do you also write [comments] to your [favorite blog] pissing and moaning about how [Steve] won't stop talking about the [blogs] you like to [read]?"

The answer, Varika, is yes - you do.

Joe
1/8/2014 10:55:54 am

Steve,

I have had discussions with you in the past and even though I tend to disagree with many your points I agree that personal attacks are not warranted in this format. When things get personal it just turns into a back and forth of name calling and nothing is achieved. It might be true as you have stated that you were not intending to attack Jason with your translation comment but just inquiring about it. But you also have to agree that in cases like blog comments that previous behavior can skew ones opinion of another. So it can be a little easier to view the wording of your comments as an attack or sarcastic question considering previous comments towards Jason and others. Just recently you have called Jason a coward and running a race baiting blog but then get upset at others for making personal attacks? I find Jason's blog interesting and when it is a subject I am interested I do my best to do outside research on his responses. But in Jason's blogs he does something that many fringe historians do not and that is provide references in his responses.

But back to the original point, I agree personal attacks are never warranted and these comment sections could be more respectful if everyone double checks their comments before hitting send.

Clint Knapp
1/8/2014 12:10:54 pm

Anyone else find it odd that this isn't even a post about Scott Wolter and Steve's decided to troll it? Or maybe that it's a post about debunking the Holy Bloodline that Steve is allegedly part of though he himself claims not to be?

I know if I was adamant that there's no truth to my family being part of the Holy Bloodline I wouldn't go around insisting on translation errors (without having ever called this to question once EXCEPT in said HB-oriented post) and demanding peer-review of a blog. That might make me sound... I don't know... somewhat conspiratorial?

Honestly, Steve, you used to make a few comments, denounce Wolter's beliefs regarding your family and the Bloodline, and then go back to trying to prove who's actually a Sinclair or not. That was fine, but something's changed. You've become obsessively hostile and grating, damaging your own public image more than anything. What gives?

Has there been a new trauma in your life that you're taking out on Jason and his readers? Are you being coerced? Is there money involved? Just once, let's hear why Steve Sinclair really cares and why he feels he must incessantly troll someone he doesn't believe is telling the truth, doesn't have any faith in, and doesn't agree on a single point with.

Steve
1/8/2014 02:58:23 pm

Nice bait, Clint Knapp.

Typical over-statement for the comment trollers on this hate blog - "…if I was adamant that there's no truth to my family being part of the Holy Bloodline"

Where did I say that Clint? Prove to me that I said "adamant" or that I think my family is part of a holy bloodline anywhere. Are you an academic or just a hatemonger Clint? I'm 100% certain it's the later.

Just in case you're not an academic with years of training in the English language …
ad·a·mant
adjective
1. Refusing to be persuaded or to change one's mind.

I'm so glad you crawled out from under your rock, Clint. Things were just about to get calm thanks to Joe and "CFC." I'm with you, Clint. Let's continue the hate. Keep it going man. Invent some new words that I supposedly said so we can keep that wonderful hate going. Better yet, team up with Tara and get some good libelous smearing going. Go man!!!

Don't miss the review of the Menehune episode and the libelous statements by so many of Jason's PEERS…er…blog acolytes. These are the kind of people you want to hang around, right? A large percentage of them are just like our friend, Clint. Objective, academically-minded folk who are just here to make sure the truth gets out. Right, Clint?

Prove to me that I said "adamant" or that I think my family is part of a holy bloodline anywhere you liar.

Steve
1/8/2014 03:03:19 pm

Just so I'm clear, Clint.

Show me where I said I'm 'adamant that there's no truth to my family being part of the Holy Bloodline'

I think I've been very clear that there is, as yet, not evidence that we are or that we are not.

Nice trolling, Clint.

Welcome to the hate blog folks. You can trust this bunch to honestly ass-ess "fringe" thinking throughout the world.

Clint, Crabby and Tara's torch is now in your hands. Keep the hate going man !!

Varika
1/8/2014 03:54:26 pm

Steve? You are a VICIOUS dog who attacks anyone who even SLIGHTLY disagrees with you. You have descended past "insult" into "abuse." I do not see how you can throw stones on anyone's misquotes when you can't even tell two entirely different posts by entirely different people apart in your haste to attack with all fangs bared. You are a contemptible piece of human effluvium. Your credibility on ANY front is so low I wouldn't trust you to tell me the sun will rise in the morning. Are you sure you don't need psychiatric treatment? Perhaps for sociopathy? Paranoid personality disorder? Intermittent rage disorder? The fury of your responses is so out of proportion with what is actually said that it certainly is not NORMAL.

Or maybe you're just a cowardly, contemptible BULLY.

Steve
1/8/2014 04:06:29 pm

Thanks so much for your opinion and near-libelous comments Varika. You've added so much to the conversation.

Seriously, thanks so much.

Will
1/9/2014 12:14:55 am

Although I have a history degree and have been published in a peer reviewed journal, I currently work as a behavior management specialist.

I am not insinuating or suggesting that anyone on this thread has any behavioral issues, but take a look at this excerpt from an article published in Psychology Today:

"When a child is not able to get attention from his or her primary caretakers, he or she will do what kids do and act out by saying or doing something that creates some drama. Children do this because negative attention is still attention. We expect this because children are trying to figure out how to do life, and part of their job is to push the boundaries and our buttons.

What we don't expect, and what becomes a big problem in relationships, is when adults act out in this manner. Make no mistake. If you ever say, "I should just kill myself," to see how your partner will respond, it is unquestionably an attention-seeking behavior. And it is one of the unhealthiest actions you can indulge in."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/emotional-fitness/201005/attention-seeking-behaviors

Marcus Aurelius
1/10/2014 10:05:12 pm

I agree Steve! This is a hate site founded by Jason Colovito and his parrot cronies "Colavites". If you look at the lis on the last few blog post they are all the same! Mandalore, Only Me, Tara Jordan, A.D.,Fantasy History Watcher, Pacal, etc. They dont think, but use the same dialolauge he feeds to them The clearly dont read books, but post blurbs from internet articles and cite from them. Jason may do reading and researching but the rest get their info from him, agree with everthing he says and are incapable of independent thought. I truly feel sorry for them but what can you do. If Jason placed the same amount of time on his blog devoted to real research and historic discussions, instead of jealous vitriol and racist name calling, this actually would be a decent site as far as critical thinking into archeology. I think he secrectly wants to be Wolter as none other have taken the time to blast this man the way he does. Yes Steve, iagree with you 100%

Jason Colavito link
1/10/2014 10:46:31 pm

Marcus, I have plenty of "real research" in the Articles section of this website, as well as in my books. You may be interested in my forthcoming book on the history and development of the Argonaut myth, which takes 160,000 words and 1,000 end notes to document the deep history and meanings of Greek mythology.

My actual work goes into articles and books.

Lisa
8/30/2018 03:36:04 am

I've had the fortune of reading a few books on the followers of the Yellow Cross, aka Cathars. After reading the passage, I would propose that the writer is Far from bias. His statements only repeat the most narrow and same/similar accounts made by the Catholic church at the time of the inquisitions and massacre.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm
There were several accounts of people who escaped but were captured, which means (logically) there were others who were not captured. I read that they believed a soul's knowledge and light could be passed to another (a prefect) at death.
They were massacred, I think, because they were a large threat to the Church. They were very popular for being an under cover group. They might have started a movement in Europe, like the Protestants.
I found a whole section of translated books on the subject at my local university, Humboldt State.

BY THE WAY
1/7/2014 09:59:42 pm

Umberto Eco is reportedly the latest author to mistakenly claim that Gerard de Sede believed in the Jesus Bloodline Theory, as reported in an online book review. He made an excellent literary contribution in "Foucault's Pendulum" so it's a pity he can't get his facts right.

I corresponded with Gerard de Sede who described the Jesus Bloodline Theory as "The Myth of Orifices". De Sede hated the authors of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail", considering them to be swindlers.

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BY THE WAY
1/7/2014 10:02:59 pm

Umberto Eco's book where he reportedly makes the mistake is "The Book of Legendary Lands" (MacLehose Press, 2013). I haven't managed to access a copy of it yet.

BY THE WAY
1/7/2014 10:10:29 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/10483181/The-Book-of-Legendary-Lands-by-Umberto-Eco-translated-by-Alastair-McEwen-review.html

The Telegraph

The Book of Legendary Lands, by Umberto Eco, translated by Alastair McEwen, review by Robert Douglas-Fairhurst


"One waspishly funny chapter concerns the determined efforts of Gérard de Sède, a French surrealist who had “retired to raise pigs following some literary disappointments”, to persuade the world that the Priory of Sion in southern France had been founded by the descendants of Jesus Christ. Add a conspiracy theory involving the Vatican and a lot of painfully strained exegeses of “clues” such as the title of Poussin’s painting Et in Arcadia ego (supposedly an anagram for I! Tego arcana Dei, or “Go! I conceal the mysteries of God”), and suddenly The Da Vinci Code starts to look less like a work of fiction than a piece of unusually credulous research."

Varika
1/7/2014 07:11:31 am

"the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had children and that these children gave rise to European royalty, who promptly hid all evidence of it to keep the commoners believing in the divinity of Jesus."

This concept always baffles me. I mean, the Greek gods--particularly Zeus--sprayed it around like firehoses, and the number of offspring they had didn't cast any doubt on THEIR divinity. Why would having a wife and kids cast doubt on Jesus' divinity? Casting doubt on Jesus' PURITY, in a world where sex is considered sinful, I can see. But his divinity?

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 07:17:30 am

It's to do with the atonement - Man's reconciliation with God, and the repairing of Original Sin

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 07:21:14 am

But dualist sects like the Cathars regarded the very thought of a corporeal Christ to be a transgression, and unthinkable

Varika
1/8/2014 07:57:37 am

It still baffles me. To be frank, the whole concept of original sin baffles me, particularly the part where it's somehow due to sex. I mean, the story of the Fall has absolutely nothing to do with sex. "Repairing original sin" ought to have something to do with the original crime, not with something completely unrelated. Besides, didn't God tell humanity to "go forth and multiply?" And therefore refusing to obey that command is sinful--and at that, a sin that replicates the original one of disobedience much more closely?

Maybe I'm just too logical for Christianity. This is hardly the only issue that I feel such bafflement over.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 08:36:24 am

There's 2,000 years of Roman Catholic Doctrine relating to Original Sin. It's not specifically mentioned by those words in the New Testament but the Pauline literature is steeped in the subject matter. "Go forth and multiply" was the punishment enforced for taking the forbidden fruit. The cross was the Tree of Life that Christ was crucified upon that rectified Adam's sin.

DAN D
1/8/2014 09:17:00 am

Varika wrote:"Besides, didn't God tell humanity to "go forth and multiply?" And therefore refusing to obey that command is sinful--and at that, a sin that replicates the original one of disobedience much more closely?"

Now that would put a lot of past and present pious Catholic nun's and priest's in a dilemma.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 10:39:52 pm

"Now that would put a lot of past and present pious Catholic nun's and priest's in a dilemma"

No it wouldn't - celibacy is a means of getting to the Catholic Heaven. By putting the brakes on they become "one with God"

Shane Sullivan
1/9/2014 12:13:48 pm

"Repairing original sin" ought to have something to do with the original crime, not with something completely unrelated."

I read a theory once that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was the grape. Grapes represent our fall, so when wine becomes the blood of Christ through transubstantiation (or whatever process the denomination in question holds true), a Christian is absolved of original sin.

I don't know of any grapes that grow on trees, but it's still an intriguing theory.

The Other J.
1/7/2014 09:35:53 am

truthiness

truth·i·ness [troo-thee-nis]
noun
1. the quality of seeming to be true according to one's intuition, opinion, or perception without regard to logic, factual evidence, or the like: the growing trend of truthiness as opposed to truth.

I wonder if Stephen Colbert thought he was just making political comedy, because he was also diagnosing something in the broader culture.

Fair warning, you might get blog-bombed by Eben Alexander apologists. I've seen a few take-downs of the Esquire article, basically trying to kill the messenger by identifying some supposed ulterior motives. If there are true believers who find this post via the google, they may come out with their e-Pitchforks.

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Jason Colavito link
1/7/2014 09:39:27 am

They may well, which is why I tried to be careful to note that nothing in the article directly discounts his personal experience of heaven. I was mostly interested in his choices in writing the book, where he more or less decided to say that he'd massage events to make a better story, which is too symptomatic of so much "nonfiction."

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 09:41:33 am

"Truth" is a subjective impulse. Truth is different things to different people.

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The Other J.
1/7/2014 10:35:29 am

That's kind of a useless broad brush to paint the world with. Truth is a lot more than a subjective response. It has a use-function, and if you really want to dig down into it, truth is a function of sentences that a particular discourse community has agreed upon due to those sentences' use-functions, and those use-functions are determined by the preponderance of evidence. (Examples: Gravity is a real thing that means you will fall if you drop from a height. Eating too much arsenic can be deadly to humans. My beagle will always bay at the neighbor's Samoyed no matter the time of day.)

Manufacturing evidence or crafting the narrative to be selective with the evidence may produce entertaining fictions, and there are certain truths to be found in fictions, but that doesn't make the narrative a "truth" just because someone wants to believe it. I want to believe I'm as tall as my brothers, but that's just not true. Those punks have almost half a foot on me.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 11:40:59 am

"Truth" and "Fact" are quite different opposites and should never be conflated together

The Other J.
1/7/2014 04:07:48 pm

Nor did I conflate truth and fact (and they certainly aren't opposites). But truths are often arrived at with the help of facts.

However, truth and opinion should likewise never be conflated. Just because something feels right doesn't make it so, no matter how hard you wish at it.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 09:28:14 pm

"Truth" is subjective, "Facts" are objective.

If you muddle the two you become confused.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 09:29:32 pm

"Opinion" is a nebulous term

Fantasy History Watcher
1/7/2014 09:44:01 am

All manner of chemicals must splash around in the brain towards approaching death.

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Byron DeLear link
1/8/2014 04:00:22 am

Interesting post as usual Jason. I’d like to offer another take on Peter of Vaux de Cernay’s writing on Cathar beliefs. I have some experience with dualist philosophies and religion. Dualism embodies conflicting “realities”—in the case of Gnostics, like the Cathars, these competing realities are the material world on one hand, and the spiritual on the other. For ease of understanding, the material world is characterized as “evil” while the spiritual world is “good.” Because these religious doctrines ask the adherent to suspend their belief and reliance in a material world, oftentimes allegorical stories are used to emphasize the distinction. Hence, Jesus—the material man, the human—is steeped in the evils of the material world, while Jesus’s spiritual side—for purposes of illustration, let’s call that “Christ”—is the embodiment of good, never needing to rely on the evils of the flesh. The God of the OT, again for purposes of illustration, is similarly unpacked into two entities, one good (sometimes called the Monad), and one evil, the Demiurge. The Gnostic beliefs are designed to shock the practitioner into “seeing” quite literally the opposite of what appears to be very real and substantial (viz. the material world, mammon, etc.)—rejecting the material world and embracing that which is unseen is part of the doctrine’s goal. Further, the Gnostic ideological/religious “lens” creates a dynamic where the world is more easily viewed as insiders (“perfecti” and “credentes”) versus the outsiders (everyone else), who “worship” the material world, the devil, etc. etc. Sadly, religion over the centuries has perpetuated this in group / out group dynamic to edify its ranks, self-promote, etc. etc.

The dualist/Cathar Jesus allegories as reported by Peter Vaux-de-Cernay is representative of the day-today mental struggle for Gnostic adherents living in a very real material world—a struggle between the human/material urges and tendencies, and the spiritual and divine ones that, according the Gnosticism, are humankind’s true identities. Peter, as a Catholic Monk, is clearly trying to defame Cathar beliefs reducing them into a cartoonish collection of straw men. After all, Peter, as a crusader as it were, was doing “God’s work” by vilifying what he presents as completely a crazy and heretical belief system. This one-sided and partisan viewpoint of Cathar beliefs should be taken as literally as other crusader’s writings on other enemies, such as the Saracens (Muslims). It’s important to be aware of the extreme nature of the crusader’s or Catholic contemporary views, as evidenced succinctly by Arnaud Amalric annoucing before the mass murder of Cathars at Beziers, “Kill them all and let God sort them out.” Whether through writing or the sword, the heretical doctrine had to be eliminated. For this reason, I would caution translating Peter’s depiction of Cathar beliefs as accurate.

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Pacal
1/8/2014 04:26:17 am

First there is some debate over whether or not Arnaud ever made that comment. Although frankly it still sums up the Crusader's mindset. Secondly most of the inhabitants of Beziers were not Cathars and the massacre was indiscriminate. Apparently many people who had taken refuge in churches were slaughtered.

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 04:30:40 am

Dualist sects like the Cathars did not believe in Jesus The "Human"

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 04:33:32 am

"First there is some debate over whether or not Arnaud ever made that comment. "

Yes, it's an embarrassment that Christian sects could have existed that rejected the bodily substance of Christ, that Jesus Christ never existed as a human being.

The beliefs of the Bogomils were widely circulated but strangely enough they have not survived.

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Pacal
1/8/2014 08:16:28 am

Your point? I said that there is debate over if Arnaud made such a comment and that is simply true. What your non - sequiturs have to do with it is a mystery. Historically all sorts of statements have been attributed to people who did not utter them. For example.

Louis XIV did not say "L'etat C'est Moi."

Marie Antoinette did not say "Let them eat cake."

Voltaire did not say "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

You are aware I hope that there is a debate over whether or not descriptions of the dualist heresy in Catholic literature are are in fact complete fabrications and that the so-called dualist heresy never existed but was a concoction of heresy hunters. See The War on Heresy, R. I. Moore,The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, Cambridge MASS, 2012. I don't buy it but there is a genuine debate going on.

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 08:20:56 am

Read the Gnostic texts first hand. Perhaps the Nag Hammadi Codices are the works of Freemasons and don't really date from antiquity. Christian sects did exist that rejected the bodily substance of Christ.

Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 08:58:47 am

Robert Ian Moore, The War on Heresy, Afterword: The War Among The Scholars.

The beliefs of the Cathars survive in fragments. The beliefs of the Bogomils have been wiped out, although it was widespread knowledge at one time (authors of the middle ages mentioned that fact in passing in their works). There was a reason behind the persecution and annihilation of Christian sects that rejected the authority and the doctrines of the Papacy. The corpus of literature that must have once existed has been obliterated.

Pacal
1/8/2014 08:58:59 am

I was not referring to Gnostics of late antiquity I am referring to the so-called Cathar or Bogimil heresies of the Middle Ages. In the book mentioned above Moore, who is an expert on Medieval heresy argues that the alleged dualist components of the heresies are due to the recycling by Catholic heresy hunters of tropes and arguments from late antiquity, i.e., in the writings of the Church Fathers. His argument is that the Dualist elements in the accounts of heresy by Catholic writers etc., in the High Middle Ages owe to recycled tropes, stereotypes from the Church Fathers and have little to do with the actual heresy of the Cathars. P.S. I've read translations of the Nag Hammadi books. Did you read my posting? I said very clearly that I do not buy this argument that the Bogimils and Cathars were not dualists. I was merely indicating that there is a genuine argument going on over the question of dualism in the Cathar and Bogimil heresies.

Erik G
1/8/2014 04:42:09 am

I doubt we can fully understand the medieval religious mind-set today. I tend to agree with Byron that Vaux-de-Cernay's account seems largely an exercise in vilification and a justification for the Crusade. That said, I do not believe the Cathars were innocent little bunnies either; theirs was a serious heresy that, in keeping with the times, had to to be extirpated. What we see in extreme fundamentalist Islam today applied to Christianity back then.

On another matter related to this post: Your opinion on "Jesus the Man" by Barbara Thiering would be most appreciated, Jason. No 'Holy Bloodline' conspiracy here -- just a married Jesus who did not die on the cross, and an examination of the complex Jewish beliefs and practices of the period. Considerable, impressive scholarship -- but is it flawed? At this stage I am unsure.

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Fantasy History Watcher
1/8/2014 04:48:01 am

I liked Hershel Shanks' description of Thiering's take on Jesus as a "rollecoaster ride".

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Byron DeLear link
1/8/2014 05:57:14 am

I found B. Thiering to great entertainment and fascinating 'what ifs' ---Her "pesher" technique as applied to scripture acts as a sort of rorschach approach to alternative interpretation, allowing Thiering to conclude any number of different hypotheses about what scripture is really saying. For example, in her book Jesus / Dead Sea Scrolls, all the places mentioned in the NT, like Egypt, become specific locales at Qumran near the Dead Sea -- it's supposedly an underlying and wholly different narrative revealed by "pesher." Essentially, saying one thing while meaning another, albeit *scried* by Thiering alone. From wiki, couple quotes about academic reception of her theories: "Professor Barbara Thiering's reinterpretation of the New Testament, in which the married, divorced, and remarried Jesus, father of four, becomes the "Wicked Priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls, has made no impact on learned opinion. Scroll scholars and New Testament experts alike have found the basis of the new theory, Thiering's use of the so-called "pesher technique", without substance." In 1993 N. T. Wright, New Testament historian and former Bishop of Durham, wrote: It is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. It is nearly ten years since it was published; the scholarly world has been able to take a good look at it: and the results are totally negative."

Pacal
1/8/2014 04:42:48 am

I have a translation of Peter of Les Vaux - de - Cernay's <b>Historia Albigenis</b>.
(<b>The History of the Albigensian Crusade</b>, The Boydell Press, Woodbridge Suffolk, 1998, translated by W. A. Sibly and M. D. Sibly). The stuff Jason translates come from P. II, s. 10-11 of the work. (Pages 10-11 of the translation.)

Jason's translation is pretty close to the Siblys' translation for example the Siblys' translate part of s. 11 as follows:

<blockquote>Further, in their secret meetings they said that the Christ who was born in the earthy and visible Bethlehem and crucified at Jerusalem was 'evil', and that Mary Magdalene was his concubine - and that she was the woman taken in adultery who is referred to in scriptures; the 'good' Christ, they said, neither ate nor drank nor assumed the true flesh and was never in this world, except spiritually in the body of Paul.</blockquote>

So I think that contrary to what Steve more than insinuates Jason got it right.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/8/2014 05:07:57 am

And the 1969 and 1800s translations agree as well. With the exception of a couple of words (Sibly and Sibly for example translate Collam and Collibam as Oolia and Ooliba) the Latin is very clear and doesn't really offer much room for variation.

Reply
CFC
1/8/2014 09:18:34 am

Steve,
I think Jason enjoys being challenged and promptly admits when he's made an error and corrects it.
BTW: I think you did some good work with the Atlantic Conference.

Reply
Steve
1/8/2014 10:31:06 am

I pretty much agree with you statement about Jason correcting errors, CFC. I really was not challenging him on the translation thing and meant the complement if deserved which, it turns out, it was.

Thanks for the comment on the Atlantic Conference.

Actually, I'm surprised I haven't read a pile-on re: the AC on this blog. Maybe I missed it. The Halifax one had some really amazing presentations, not the least of which was Dr. Benjamin Olshin, who took a beating from a group of academics called Map-hist for even having an open mind about early trans-Atlantic voyaging, much less presenting there. I'll have to ask Benjamin if I can post the video of that. He may allow it.

Reply
CFC
1/8/2014 10:51:10 am

I hope you post it Steve. If I recall, he was providing guidance to those who may not be in academia about how to follow proper scientific method. Right?

Steve
1/8/2014 11:04:22 am

That was what he presented in the online conference (i think it was 2009).

In 2008(?), he presented a paper in person in Halifax. His approach was genius. He didn't claim anyone made it to North America other than the Norse. But he did point out factual evidence of deep Atlantic voyaging by European nations well before Columbus. Not just the Canary Islands, but much further out into the open Atlantic. Benjamin said it's important to ask "why?" What were they looking for? Had they heard stories of strange lands? Had they seen maps? After all, being in the open Atlantic is a scary and expensive venture. Was there an awareness of land across the Atlantic?

proximity sensor link
9/5/2015 04:07:09 am

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Reply
security America link
3/25/2016 07:57:59 am

I like your blog. I enjoyed reading your blog. It was amazing. Thanks a lot.

Reply
linear image sensors USA link
3/26/2016 12:31:20 am

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Reply
Line scan camera link
7/28/2016 01:22:00 am

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Reply
Dave
8/1/2017 02:18:53 pm

You have taken the word of the same people who carried out a crusade and genocide against the Cathars to bolster your argument? As if it is a true and reliable source? Seems like we all pick and choose our sources sometimes. They wiped out an entire culture but then left all their ideas intact in writing and didn't produce any propaganda at all to justify what they had done? C'mon.

Reply
Aliya
2/11/2019 03:30:30 pm

Anyone that has done real and lengthy research WITHOUT an agenda but only seeking knowledge..... recognizes this hogwash for what it is.
Early Gnostics aka Jesus christians (Essenes) know how the knowledge travelled across Europe at the time.
Jason's references to the Cathar's beliefs are laughable.

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