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The First Effort to Identify Atlantis with the Sea Peoples

2/8/2018

57 Comments

 
​It turns out that I won’t be on In Search Of to talk about Atlantis after all. I spoke with a segment producer who informed me that the program’s director is an Oscar-nominated auteur with an uncompromising artistic vision for the program. Consequently, they will not accept as a talking head anyone who is unwilling to travel to Europe or a location somewhere in the United States to be filmed according to his exacting creative standards—on a date to be determined at the last minute, depending on the shooting schedule of Zachary Quinto, who will be squeezing the series in between movies. I offered to shoot talking head segments locally here in Albany, using a freelance crew as many shows typically arrange for, since I am not able to leave my infant son or my job behind on a whim, but the auteur said that any shoot where he has less than 100% creative control is unacceptable.
 
So, you heard it here first: This is the first time I’ve ever been rejected from a series for aesthetic reasons!
​But since I’m on the subject of Atlantis, I thought I’d pick up on something I mentioned briefly the other day. I mentioned that the German scholar Wilhelm von Christ was the first to suggest that the Sea Peoples could be identified with the people of Atlantis. He made this suggestion in 1886, in an omnibus article on “Platonic Studies” in an academic journal. Since I couldn’t find that it had been translated into English, I thought you might enjoy this early attempt to provide a rational explanation for Atlantis in the milieu of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.  
 
The translation, for better or worse, is my own, though German is not my strongest language. The English text of Proclus, which von Christ gave in the original Greek, I have adapted from a standard English translation.
12. Assorted Thoughts on Plato.
 
Finally, to complete the dozen, in this twelfth chapter I will assemble a few literary-historical details about Plato’s life and writings.
 
The Critias as a historical novel. As for the source of the narrative of the Critias, besides the author’s own testimony, there is a curious note that comes to us from the Platonist Crantor in the commentary of Proclus on the Timaeus p. 24: “With respect to the whole of this narration about the Atlanteans, some say that it is a mere history, which was the opinion of Crantor, the first interpreter of Plato, who says that Plato was derided by those of his time as not being the inventor of the Republic, but transcribing what the Egyptians had written on this subject; and that he so far regards what is said by these deriders as to refer to the Egyptians this history about the Athenians and Atlanteans, and to believe that the Athenians once lived conformably to this polity. Crantor adds that this is testified by the priests of the Egyptians, who assert that these particulars are written on pillars (stelae) which are still preserved.” Plato’s successors in the Academy took at face value Plato’s assertion that his ancestor Solon had heard the myth of Atlantis from the mouths of Egyptian priests at Sais, and in doing so relied on the testimony of those Egyptian priests that they were telling the truth that documents proving their tale still existed. Our skeptical time has crumbled one stone after another from that tradition, most recently Susemihil, Gen. Entw. II 473 f. and Rohde, Der griech. Roman S., p. 199 want us to recognize in the story of Atlantis only pure fiction and the freest poetry. This is cheap wisdom. If the skeptics had followed the reports of what has been found in the Egyptian papyri, they would have offered their readers more than a hard stone.  Yes, the prose-written epic of the invasion of Attica and the interior lands of the Mediterranean by a powerful people who had their headquarters far to the west on an island in the Atlantic Ocean is, like every epic, an embellishment of the storyteller and thus a product of the poetic imagination. But like any true folk epic, it has a historical background. We have become acquainted with this background only through the hieroglyphic texts of the monument of Karnak, published by Dümichen, Hist. Inschr. I 1—5, which de Rougé in the Revue archeologique 1867 and then Chabas in the Études sur l 'antiquité historique p.191ff. have translated and which I first learned about via a lecture by Professor Lauth. But none of these scholars related these to Atlantis in the Critias of Plato and the Egyptian stelae of Crantor, apparently because they were not at the time at the forefront of their thoughts; but those reports of a great confederation of the peoples of western Libya (Lebus) and the islands of the western Mediterranean (Shekulsha = Sicily and Shardana = Sardinia), which invaded Egypt, but which were completely defeated and destroyed after fierce fighting, were certainly still known to the priests of Egypt 1,000 years later, and these priests could have told of them to Solon or Plato, and thus they might well form the background atop which the poet-philosopher painted his poetic picture.
57 Comments
Brian
2/8/2018 08:44:42 am

I know this is heresy for the classicists, but with all the lost Greek treasures - the other plays of Sophocles, Aeschylus, Aristophanes, and their contemporaries, epic songs contemporary with Homer, etc. - why the hell couldn't the Critias have been lost as well? It would have saved us all so much wasted energy with this idiotic Atlantis stuff and granted one less hook for the nuts to grab hold of. I refuse to call it a myth; it was a story, a parable. Why don't all these Atlantis enthusiasts instead concentrate on looking for Plato's famous cave, where so many poor people have been trapped staring at shadows for thousands of years?

Reply
T. Franke link
2/8/2018 02:39:08 pm

@Brian:

The reason, why searching for Atlantis and searching for Plato's cave is not the same, is simply, because the types of text are not the same. Atlantis is presented as basically real. The cave is presented as an analogy, so basically as an invention. Therefore it makes no sense to search for the cave. Whether it makes sense to search for Atlantis is an other question. It is not the same question.

Reply
Americanegro
2/8/2018 09:46:18 pm

The story of Atlantis is a story about a story about a story. Not that different.

Did the dialog in Phaedrus actually take place? He's a philosopher, he's a historian, he's a dessert topping, he's a floor wax!

How do we know that the Giant's Causeway didn't involve an actual giant? It's set far enough in the past that, like Atlantis there were no witnesses.

T. Franke link
2/9/2018 12:02:51 pm

@Americanegro:

I see your wording "Not that different" as the admittance that there is indeed some sort of difference. Thank you.

Whether the Phaedrus dialogue actually took place? Sigh .... sigh .... and sigh ..... the Atlantis dialogues did not take place in reality, this much is certain. This is the case for most middle and later dialogues of Plato, maybe even for all dialogues.

Yet this says nothing about the reality status of Atlantis. You may scream and shout about it as long as you like it, it does not change anything: To conclude from the invention of the dialogues on the invention of Atlantis is no valid conclusion. Simply because Plato discusses many things in his invented dialogues which are meant to be real and true.

Americanegro
2/9/2018 01:20:36 pm

"Not that different" is trying to be gentle. I can see that to your mind I should have said '"a story about a story about a story" is exactly the same as "a story"'. "Story" of course is the Ancient Greek meaning of μῦθος .

"You may scream and shout..." DON'T BE AN ASS. I'm saving screaming and shouting for that day when I'm loaded into the cattle car.

"To conclude from the invention of the dialogues on the invention of Atlantis is no valid conclusion." I don't do that. Thou shalt not put words in my mouth. I base my conclusion on a plain reading of the Critias.

T. Franke link
2/9/2018 02:51:55 pm

@Americanegro:

First, a close reading of Plato's Atlantis dialogues would have brought you to mind that the Atlantis tradition is not "a story about a story about a story". It is a story, true or false, allegedly handed down over time. But only one story. Not "story about story about story". We have to be precise, here.

Then, I wonder why you talk of the Greek word "mythos". Because Plato explicitly writes that the story is not a mythos. If you want to see this in any other way, you really have to explain this. And believe me: You only can go fail, here.

Then, "story" is not the appropriate translation for "mythos". I made my ancient Greek exam with top mark, and followed so many traces of this word in ancient Greek literature, that I can tell you with good conscience: No, not true. "mythos" is any kind of statement which is not supported by any argument or evidence. This can be "just a story", but it can be so much more ... it even can be a true story. Potentially.

Americanegro
2/9/2018 04:24:09 pm

YOU are the one who raised the mythos issue.

Okay, story, tale, narrative, report. "Story" suffices. You don't offer a counter-translation so we'll go with mine and certainly not its modern meaning. Now you're bouncing back and forth between "is not called a mythos in the original text" (2/7/2018) and "Plato explicitly writes that the story is not a mythos". Two different things.

On 4/13/2015 you wrote, in the context of Plato's story about Atlantis "IMHO he made a so-called "eikos mythos" of it".

Plato got the story from Solon or a story about Solon and Solon got it from the Egyptians, so it is indeed "a story about a story about a story".

"[T]he effort to make Atlantis real dies hard."

T. Franke link
2/9/2018 04:43:31 pm

@Americanegro:

Sigh ... why do you always flee into word-mongering in the end?

Only one thing:

The Atlantis tradition is not presented as mythos. It is presented as logos in Plato's dialogues. But Critias' Atlantis narration in the Critias dialogue is a special type of mythos, namely an "eikos mythos", based on the logos. And please do not confuse an eikos mythos with "myth". It is not a myth.

The Atlantis logos:
Timaios 20d: ὅδε οὖν ἡμῖν λόγον εἰσηγήσατο ἐκ παλαιᾶς ἀκοῆς

And what Critias makes of it:
Timaios 26cd: τοὺς δὲ πολίτας καὶ τὴν πόλιν ἣν χθὲς ἡμῖν ὡς ἐν μύθῳ διῄεισθα σύ, νῦν μετενεγκόντες (26d) ἐπὶ τἀληθὲς δεῦρο θήσομεν ὡς ἐκείνην τήνδε οὖσαν, καὶ τοὺς πολίτας οὓς διενοοῦ φήσομεν ἐκείνους τοὺς ἀληθινοὺς εἶναι προγόνους ἡμῶν, οὓς ἔλεγεν ὁ ἱερεύς.

V
2/9/2018 08:04:06 pm

....T. Franke, anything presented in a known fictional dialogue must, according to principles of critical thinking, be assumed to be fictional unless other, prior reference to it can be found. We don't assume Hogwarts or Narnia are real for the same reason.

Give me evidence of a tale that existed BEFORE Plato's dialogue was written, and THEN we can talk about how "real" Atlantis was. Until then, well, apparently I have more respect for the ability of ancient peoples to craft narratives than you do. And more understanding that they were more than willing to make shit up whenever they felt like it.

d
2/9/2018 08:54:19 pm

You: "Sigh ... why do you always flee into word-mongering in the end?"

You: "I see your wording "Not that different" as the admittance that there is indeed some sort of difference. Thank you."

You: "And please do not confuse an eikos mythos with "myth". It is not a myth."

To sum up, You: "It's not a mythos but it's a particular sort of mythos in spite of Plato either not saying it's a mythos or saying it's not a mythos, depending on the day of the week."

Jesus Effing Christ, Katzenjammer, I'm NOT saying it's a myth (in the modern sense). I'm saying it's a story. If you deny the easily observable truth that the story of Atlantis is a story, I'm not sure what to say to you.

"[T]he effort to make Atlantis real dies hard."

T. Franke link
2/10/2018 01:01:09 pm

@V:

Sorry, your conclusions are logical fallacies. And Plato's dialogues are full of real and true stories, although the dialogues are mostly (if not all) invented. You have not point, sorry.

Concerning the "ability of ancient peoples to craft narratives" let me put forward the argument of Brandenstein and many other scholars that only centuries after Plato types of text were invented (mostly called "novel") which were not true, not announced to be not true, but every reader understood that they were not true. If you want to maintain the opinion that Plato's Atlantis is not true and simply an invention, then you only can maintain this by interpreting it as a deception, a Noble Lie. Which was not (!) recognized as being not true in Plato's time.

@D:

I have a deep understanding for you that you are confused with the categories of logos and mythos, and the types of mythos, applying here. I see the reason in the superficiality and simplicity which can be found in the articles of most scholars on the topic. It is worth to know this: The correct interpretation of Platonic Myths is as well a battle field of ideologies as is the intrpretation of Atlantis. Marxism. Materialism. Constructivism. Rationalism. Liberalism. Religious views. It is a mess. And your confusion is easily explained. It took me three years to read through all the literature about Platonic Myths *and* to make up my own mind on this topic.

Well, if we consider "story" as a neutral word (could be true, could be wrong, just any kind of narration), then simply everything is a story, isn't it? This does not help us so much. Contrary to Americanegro's statement above, I indeed HAVE presented a counter-translation for mythos. I repeat myself:

"mythos" is any kind of statement which is not supported by any argument or evidence. This can be "just a story", but it can be so much more ... it even can be a true story. Potentially.

Hanslune
2/11/2018 01:51:04 pm

How true! Yet others comment on Plato's story so there would still be mention of it - the Roman's commented on the story and a parody play/story about it called Meropis was written too.

However with no Atlantis the fringe magical thinking people would have just fixated on something else.

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T. Franke link
2/11/2018 02:20:11 pm

@Hanslune:

Meropis is not referring to Plato's Atlantis. It is a parody of Plato's dialogues written before the Atlantis dialogues, especially Phaedon and Republic. Atlantis does not occur in the Meropis story, contrary to what you can read in most scholarly articles.

Cf. Thorwald C. Franke, Kritische Geschichte, 2016; pp. 95-105.

This is confirmed by other ancient authors, e.g. such as Tertullian, who calls Meropis a fable, and at the same time he takes Atlantis as real story. He does not spend any thought on the (wrong) idea that the two stories could be interrelated. Because they are not.

Several scholars at the end of the 19th centuries clearly expressed this incommensurability of the two stories. Modern scholars neglect to have a careful look about what they write. It is a pity.

Americanegro
2/11/2018 06:12:01 pm

Let me guess: it's not about Atlantis because the word "Atlantis" doesn't appear in it.

"A real story" is simply a story that exists. The idea that calling something a "fable" means you must believe the story it's based on is true is risible. So Tertullian's opinion doesn't count. You failed to establish the pervasion. He's just another guy who (according to you) believed the Atlantis story.

Sounds like this is a case of one story being built on another.

You're one of those guys who likes to cite himself; we seen vatos like you before, ese.

T. Franke link
2/12/2018 06:16:31 am

@Americanegro:

Of course, Tertullian's opinion does count. He shows us once more that most ancients did not perceive the Atlantis story as an invention.

You can read the Meropis story. It is a short text, since it is only a surviving summary, the original is lost. You will not find Atlantis in there: No imperial big island in the Atlantic, no nested rings of water, no bull cult ritual, no 10 kings, no Atlas, simply nothing. But when comparing to Phaedon and the Republic, you will find everything alluded to.

And yes, I "cite myself", in order to give every interested reader the opportunity to see the arguments in detail, which (naturally) cannot be unfolded in an internet discussion forum.

I hope that you are not sad that I have arguments to present, whereas you have not? Where are your arguments that Meropis alludes to Atlantis? Meropis has a big black whole in its middle: There is Europe, and there is the opposite continent (of which there is talk also in the Phaedon), but there is no Atlantis in the Atlantic. You cannot interpret a story without allusions to Atlantis as a story alluding to Atlantis.

E.P. Grondine
2/8/2018 09:07:27 am

Hi Jason -

Well, at least they decided that you're not too ugly for television, and that your speaking voice is good enough not to drive lthe audience away.

You have that nice Greek influenced architecture down at the Buffalo World's Fair site. On a sunny day , and that would work for the project they have at hand. It looks to me that they want their own camera an sound crew.

You could also give them talking head footage about The House of Life.


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An Over-Educated Grunt
2/8/2018 09:29:09 am

Does dude know he's making a retread of "In Search Of" for the History Channel? That's like requiring complete artistic control for a middle school play.

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Machala
2/8/2018 10:56:16 am

Jason,
What a load of producer's bullshit ! Having spent most of my adult working life, involved, in way way or another with motion picture and television production, I can tell you that you were treated very unprofessionally and the "Oscar nominated auteur" ( who I wished you'd named ) would never be able to pull such crap in a REAL production. God ! They're using Zachary Quinto as their featured talent !! You know this production is lame before it starts.

It's quite common ( especially to save production costs ) to put the "experts" in front of a green screen or in a small set in a rented studio with a second unit crew to shoot those segments. I rather suspect that this "auteur" producer/director was afraid he/she could neither control what you said nor edit your commentary to suit his premise.

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David Bradbury
2/8/2018 02:39:19 pm

According to Quinto in 'Variety' the series director (and another of the many executive producers) is Eddie Schmidt:
http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/zachary-quinto-history-in-search-of-1202680918/
He was Oscar nominated as a producer, not a director (Twist of Faith, 2004, Best Documentary)- however, his directing work has also been in the documentary field.

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Machala
2/8/2018 08:55:12 pm

Thanks for the info. I will do a little more digging, before I make any further comment on this 'artiste'. .A search through DGA was not "productive" ( pardon the pun ) but then many of these indie types don't believe in paying guild or union dues, but still want to be called "prosfesionals" !

Jim
2/8/2018 11:20:13 am

It should be interesting to see who they use as a talking head. Probably Alan Butler, Brad Yoon or somesuch " gimme ten minutes and I can be an expert on Atlantis" type.
You know, someone who can work within a script.

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ISO Real History
2/8/2018 12:28:55 pm

You should have your own show anyway. These shows don't even pay the talking heads very much as they expect you to benefit from book sales. Since every fringe show for the last 40 years is a rehash of the original In Search Of it will be interesting to see them simply repeat all the same stories that were in the original series just like Ancient Aliens does.

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Bob Jase
2/8/2018 01:49:35 pm

So let me see if I get this straight -
the Sea People who came from the western Mediterranean rather than a sunken continent,
attacked the Egyptians around 2500 BCE, rather than the Athenians (as per Plato) around 9000 BCE,
were the Atlanteans even though they came from a different place at a different time and interacted with different people?

Sure, why not?

Say, a squirrel crossed my yard yesterday, is that evidence for bigfoot even though its a completely different animal?

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AC
2/8/2018 02:23:50 pm

Sea peoples were 1200 BC give or take 50 years either side and their origins are all guesswork.

If we had any reason to suppose that an Island of Atlantis existed then we wouldn't have any evidence that the so called Sea peoples didn't come from there.

Sadly mainstream ancient history is far from free of the idea that if you can show that the timescale suggested by our only sources are wrong you can therefore move the events to any when you want to.

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Americanegro
2/8/2018 02:39:15 pm

If Wikipedia can be believed it was 1200–900 BC.

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T. Franke link
2/8/2018 02:45:49 pm

@Bob Jase:

At first glance it looks odd, yet with some background knowledge these two different events could be brought into connection.

Is is absolutely crucial to realize that ancient Greeks thought of Egypt to be at least ca. 11000 years old. This is what all the authors tell us. Of course, this is wrong. But it is not an invention, it is a mistake. And therefore, the 9000 years of Plato's Atlantis could fall into the same category: Not an invention, but a mistake, common at that time.

The next step would be to find out which point in time really was meant by the dates given by ancient Greeks. And by proceeding on this way you can maybe (you do not know this in adavance) find Atlantis as a real place.

But to say, "oh, the 9000 years obviously cannot be real, therefore Atlantis can only be an invention", is too easy.

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T. Franke link
2/8/2018 02:16:26 pm

Thank you Jason, great work.

Wilhelm von Christ puts forward rather a hypothesis than a ready-made theory, and the background are the bold claims of Atlantis skeptics. Wilhelm von Christ wanted to show Atlantis skeptics: Look, you cannot be so sure, as you claim ... there could really be a historical background.

Another background you need to know is the development of historical-critical thinking, especially in German protestantism. For Wilhelm von Christ it is plainly clear that the Atlantis story cannot be read in a literal sense. For readers not familiar with historical criticism, this information has to be added to understand von Christ's thesis.

Several big questions following from von Christ's hypothesis are:

(x) What is meant to be real, and what is "embellishment", as von Christ calls it, in the Atlantis story?

(x) And did Plato follow certain rules in "embellishing", or was it just "free" phantasy?

(x) Is the historical core big enough to call Atlantis real? And where was it?

(x) Can there be substantiated any connection between the Egyptian reports about the Sea Peoples, historical facts about them, and Plato's Atlantis story?

These questions have not been answered in an sufficient way, until today, neither positive nor negative.

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V
2/9/2018 08:07:43 pm

Oh, you are so totally a True Believer, aren't you...

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T. Franke link
2/10/2018 12:46:02 pm

@V:

Somebody who asks questions and explicitly says that there are no answers to them, cannot be a "believer", or?

Magnus
2/8/2018 02:42:01 pm

Well, you can't present the true historical facts without complete artistic freedom. I mean, Atlantis just has to be presented in roses and gold, anything less and people might not believe it!

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Bill
2/9/2018 12:50:15 am

Jason, I think you made a mistake. That's typically how these shows are videotaped. Talking heads are given some notice because the producers must book your travel and accommodations in advance. It is more expensive for them to book a special crew just to film one person in Albany than to fly a talking head to a location where they video interview several people in a single day. I can't imagine that talking to your boss and letting her/him know about it wouldn't gain your boss's cooperation: people at work would probably be excited for you and look forward to seeing you on TV, including your boss. I don't know your family situation--are you a single dad? If so, any parents or relatives who could take the child for two to four days while you are out of town? I'm sure they would be happy to help under these circumstances. Anyway, interesting article about the possible Sea Peoples-Atlantis connection.

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Jason Colavito link
2/9/2018 07:07:35 am

Every production is different. The last one I did sent a crew here to Albany. The one before that shot in Washington, which is close enough that I flew there and back the same day. New York City is only a couple of hours from me, and it's a major media hub. Today you don't need a special crew to do a shoot; a single person with a camera and some lights can do it. Even as far back as when I was in school for broadcasting, I used to have to do it myself. It's just not worth going all the way to Europe to shoot 3 minutes of video!

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Machala
2/9/2018 10:45:33 am

Don't forget that thanks to SKYPE, they can set up a "live" interview with you - not as sexy as a studio but gives a sense of immediacy and broadcast journalism to the piece.
Plus, if the don't like what you're saying, they can always pill the plug and claim loss of internet connection.

Gerald J Joseph
2/11/2018 10:54:09 am

What is all the confusion about, the civilization we call Atlantis was destroyed when Santorini blew up and ended what we call the Minoan, an Aegean bronze age civilization.

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Hanslune
2/11/2018 07:31:41 pm

Howdy Frank

Ah no still quoting yourself huh? We spoke last about this a year or so ago at Unexplained Mysteries I believe. So it's your opinion that one story is real and the other isn't about it. Okay..........

I however say the first story is made up and the second story was also made up based on making fun of the first.

This can be easily resolved by your FINDING Atlantis. No matter how much you push words around it will never solves the problem basic problem - of no Atlantis.


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Hanslune
2/11/2018 07:45:33 pm

Franke why do you reject the work of Emil Forrer? Wasn't he a true believer like yourself?

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T. Franke link
2/12/2018 06:08:24 am

@Hanslune:

Emil Forrer believed Meropis to be something like a real story. But this is utter nonsense. Because it is obvious and easy to see that the story of Meropis is alluding to Plato's dialogues, esp. Phaedon and the Republic. Furthermore, the source of the Meropis story is explicitly mythical (a Silen). etc. etc.

From studying the Meropis story and comparing it to the Atlantis story, there can be much learned about and from the differences.

To "believe" is no valid category of academic episteme. Strange, that exactly most Atlantis skeptics are believers as well as most Atlantis searchers ... they have no arguments ...

Hanslune
2/12/2018 10:25:42 am

Yes believing in stories IS utter nonsense.

So when do you expect to find physical evidence of Atlantis? Let me guess you aren't even looking are you?

Forer belief is equal to yours - a belief based on well just belief.

Yet you dismiss him - amusing isn't it?

No arguments?

How about 'No Atlantis'?

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T. Franke link
2/12/2018 12:47:59 pm

@Hanslune:

To your surprise (I suppose) I admit that you have a point. Opening up the possibility of a real Atlantis is one thing. Going searching is another thing. And the latter should follow from the former.

But I can tell you: Yes, I have been searching. And I have found. And now I am writing and writing and writing everything what is needed to present an appropriate proposal for a real place for Atlantis.

Some parts of this theory have been published already, yet not its core. Next publication will cover the topic of Platonic myths. Then the results from a historical-critical approach (in order to know exactly for what we are looking), and criticism of prevailing hyptheses. Last outstanding publication will be the place itself, and its embedding in known history (it is a known civilization, of course). For this, I only can beg for your patience.

But alas, most Atlantis skeptics even have a problem with the opening up of the question itself. It is funny how Atlantis skeptics desperately stick to their claim, although one argument after the other slips through their fingers. Is it really so difficult to admit that there is an open question and the answer still has to be given?!

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Americanegro
2/12/2018 01:01:39 pm

You can't say it's an open question and say you think you have the answer at the same time. But as you correctly imply the onus is on you to provide an answer. The denier's role is much simpler, "No".

Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical. Historical-critical.

Hanslune
2/12/2018 01:05:17 pm

In other words you believe something and it must be true.

Yet you can find no evidence beyond words to support it but to keep the possibility alive you will keep talking and avoiding the elephant in the room.

Is the name of that elephant: No evidence?

Is that about it?

If Plato's writings (those that you accept and don't change) are correct then there should be evidence for a world wide civilization - but there is not a thing, nothing. No ship wrecks, no pottery, no sign of their armies, habitations or trade goods. They left no impression on the environment either. OStrange

All other civilizations have left massive archaeological footprints.

Odd isn't it?

Have fun pretending.

T. Franke link
2/12/2018 01:25:17 pm

@Americanegro:
@Hanslune:

Can't you listen? I said I am currently in the process of publishing. So for the public, and this forum here, the question is open. For me personally, until I published all parts of my thesis, it is not an open question. Is it so difficult to distinguish these two perspectives? O my dear boys .....

@Hanslune:

Why "world-wide"? Strange. I have repeatedly explained to you why the literal meaning of Plato's dialogues is not correct. As it is with every other ancient text. That you now start to talk of a "world-wide" civilization reveals that you are still stuck in beliefs which can be compared to Biblical literalists' beliefs.

Tell me Hanslune, do you read the Bible literally? Do you read Herodotus literally? Thucydides? Julius Caesar? Do you read Middle Ages chroniclers literally? No you don't. No you don't. No you don't. ONLY with Atlantis, you insist that EVERY kind of interpretatrion is forbidden, that it MUST be LITERALLY true, and that it e.g. has to be a "world-wide" civilization. This is not an academic approach, you are following, this is a kindergarten approach.

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Hanslune
2/12/2018 01:39:49 pm

Franke you get so testy when you get shown you are wrong.

I hate to tell you this but you are not a source of ultimate truth...

LOL

Not that it forbidden just that you do so to justify your belief. Here is a suggestion. Why don't you publish YOUR version of Plato's work - rewrite T & C so it is literal. I would be interesting to see how much of it still remains. use a side by side comparison put up what P wrote then write what it really should say. Not footnotes rewrite it as 'you think it should be'.

Yes world-wide or shall we say world-wide as restricted by the narrow view point of Plato? Nah, when Plato wrote his story he knew the world was much bigger than what he knew about and he wrote world wide to take into account the entire planet he was trying to write an impressive story you know - can you prove he didn't do that? Nope

Okay where are the artifacts? Where are the normal leftovers of a vast empire? Where?

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T. Franke link
2/12/2018 02:16:30 pm

@Hanslune:

Your "arguments" are so ridiculous, so full of logical fallacies or simply emotional rejection ... it is a waste of time even to read them, it really hurts ...

T. Franke link
2/12/2018 02:20:39 pm

@Hanslune:

Cite: "he wrote world wide to take into account the entire planet"

Ah, did he? Yes? Have you ever READ Plato's dialogues?

*ROTFL*

Americanegro
2/12/2018 02:31:25 pm

But you're okay with Tertullian taking Plato literally and believing in Atlantis.

Yes, I take Julius Caesar's writings literally. It's great fun the way you ask questions then answer them on behalf of your interlocutor.

On the other hand I don't believe in Joseph Smith's golden tablets but many deluded Mormons do. Similarly Tertullian was deluded, yet you insist on raising him as some sort of important data point: "See? This long ago guy believed in Plato's Atlantis, so there!"

NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical. NO. Historical-critical.

"[T]he effort to make Atlantis real dies hard."

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T. Franke link
2/12/2018 02:40:54 pm

@Americanegro:

... I made clear from the beginning, that Tertullian is not alone ... alas ... that is a bit much:

YOU take Julius Caesar's writings literally?! Are you nuts?!?!

Caesar's writings are political propaganda texts! He glorified his victories in Gaul, and omitted what was not so pleasant. And what is about the fabulous animals he is talking about?

You are taking Caesar's writings literally?
You don't know what you are talking about.

You are not worth to discuss ancient texts, if you continue to have your emotions drive you, instead of your brain.

*ROTFL*

Americanegro
2/12/2018 04:10:14 pm

"He glorified his victories in Gaul, and omitted what was not so pleasant." Wow! COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE WHO EVER WROTE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

Yes, I take J.C. literally. I had forgotten about the animals but I simply execute "the Francke Maneuver" and say "he was talking about something else, possibly something someone told him and especially if someone told him and double especially if people of his time believed it it must be true."

See how easy that is? Of course you do.

Bob Jase
2/12/2018 03:27:52 pm

So once again we will 'learn' that Atlantis was real just as Plato wrote except that it was in a different place at a different time inhabited by a different epople with a different civilization.

but just the same!

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Hanslune
2/12/2018 04:59:38 pm

Yep and the description of Atlantis with it huge constructions was really just a metaphor for a small fishing village off the southern coast of Sicily......or somethin. lol

Once you start reinterpreting P. you basically can justify everything.

The lack of actual evidence is the true death of the idea of Atlantis. This is the key point in understanding it as a story. It is also why generations of believers just talk about the meaning of the words and stay away from archaeology.

nomuse
2/16/2018 09:56:45 pm

What was the one about if you just change the date, the location, the gender, and the moral character then Cleopatra was the real King Arthur?

I can never remember the name of the guy that said this one, not when I need to, anyways.

Hanslune
2/12/2018 03:07:10 pm

What I cannot make up stuff and pretends it real?

You do it all the time.

You did the before Franke once people don't want to talk about the theoretical meaning of words and your interpretation of Plato and start to question you on the real evidence. You run off.

Why is that?

You've been working on this for what 20 years and you STILL don't know where it is?

You STILL don't have any physical evidence?

Then why should anyone believe it is real?

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Frank
6/22/2018 12:14:32 pm

Atlantis is real... no it's not.... yes it is.... no it's not..... yes it is...... It sounds to me that this scene from the magnificent 7 puts this Atlantis matter in the correct perspective. Words will never determine who is right. And this calling the other a liar will only be resolved when it's for real. But then someone will really get hurt by the truth. One of these days Atlantis will show up where it is least likely to be found. But only when Plato reincarnates in our times to finish his Critias, and writes the Hermocrates, and the Philosopher dialogues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KctqZVYgmO4

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Hanslune
6/22/2018 01:12:43 pm

Great film TMS

As to your comments:

So stop jabbering and go find it. How much time and money have you spent on physically trying to find it and verifying all your hundred of thousands of words?

Endless mental masturbation.

0 seconds of real effort versus decades of gibberish?

Frank
6/23/2018 03:18:56 am

Dear Hanslue,

TMS is a great movie! Agreed. Atlantis is a great story? Yes? If it were not, would it still be told and discussed after nearly 2,000 years? Like many great old world stories, it would be the greatest of them all, if it had been completed! Agreed? What I mean is that it would be the greatest if we knew if it was true or not, and just where and when our Atlantis lies. But you misinterpret my intent on why I posted as a reply to you. Actually it was meant as a general reply to the subject and to the nature of the discussions of the thread, and not as an admonition on the stand you take on Atlantis. Mia culpa.

And to answer your questions, I have not spent hardly any money on seeking out Atlantis, except for a few dollars on Plato's books, and a couple more on one or two books on claims of "Atlantis found". Money I have not, but time yes. My search for Atlantis has all been with the mind's eye, which is very cheap versus the financial requirements in seeking Atlantis with physical eyes and for the palpable proof of a materialistic nature. Therefore, I can say that I have spent, as you ask, not hundreds of thousands, but only 8,000 or 9,000 words, depending if I count as the crow flies, or a dove.

Please, allow me to be rude for the sake of the nature of the exchanges you all have here. You people do not understand Plato. And I mean that there are idiots on both sides of the argument on whether Plato's Atlantis is a true story or not. On one side those idiots who say it's true and yet provide no substantial material proof, nor logical justification, in the absence of the proof, to those other idiots on the other side who are materialistic in nature, and want their 5 senses thrilled with tangible proof.

Before going pro or con on Atlantis, you all have better understand Plato. Something that is lacking on both sides of the argument. And don't ask me to explain it in detail, if you did already not grasp the analogy of the TMS clip I posted. Plato did really mean to leave off the Critias dialogue in the middle of a sentence and therefore the story of Atlantis incomplete. And he also, purposely, did not write the two other dialogues I mentioned. Plato wanted to put to the test the existence and immortality of the soul, as taught by his beloved master, Socrates. Providing physical proof of Atlantis is all about providing proof for the existence of the soul and the reincarnation it goes through. Socrates and friends (disciples) and Plato in particular, have left proof buried in the past, which they only can provide, but only if their belief in the soul and reincarnation is true. God only knows. However, they also knew that this proof would also be subject to their remembering not to drink too much water of forgetfulness during their subsequent reincarnations, and the probability of recalling just enough to trigger all their memory back. Apparently, since no one has really provided the necessary proof of Plato's Atlantis, a proof to satisfy both the cons and pros, the experiment to prove the immortality of the soul is still left incomplete, like the story of Atlantis. Either those souls of old have not yet reincarnated at the proper time, or, like fools like us, have drunk too much water of forgetfulness, and cannot remember the world of ideas, the spiritual world, the world that only the mind's eye can see. The real world whose image our physical world of the 5 senses is of; our physical world is the world of becoming which never really is reality. It only seems so. The real proof of Atlantis is in that other world, the one seen by the mind's eye. But I see that everyone here is blind.

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Hanslune
6/23/2018 10:55:23 am

As noted earlier: Endless mental masturbation over Atlantis your response is an excellent example of this.

"Plato did really mean to leave off the Critias dialogue in the middle of a sentence and therefore the story of Atlantis incomplete"

Pretending you know what Plato meant is amusing.

Endless mental masturbation over Atlantis.

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Frank
6/24/2018 08:02:57 am

Hanslue,

Again, let me also say that I did not mean to engage you in a words debate, as I can tell that you are a very powerful and intimidating creature. But I feel that you thrill yourself by believing to be some kind of champion of facts. I also note that you are obsessed with the term, masturbation, no wonder, when thrill is the objective. You are using this term incorrectly when you associated it with mental activities on my part. Masturbation is the act of oneself on itself, rather than an outside source. If you are meaning mental excitement caused by reflecting on Atlantis, than it cannot be masturbation, since Plato is providing the stimulus and foreplay. Mental masturbation would be a case where one is excited by an original idea, meaning, self though and completely independent of external excitement.

Perhaps I'm pretending to know Plato, and just taunting you as you do others. But what are you doing when you tell me that I'm the one pretending? Logically, would you not have to know yourself to tell another that he does not know? Let me pose the same kind of questions to you, which you posed to me, and then one or more.

So stop gibbering and tell me how well you know Plato? How much time and money have you spent on physically or mentally, trying to find what Plato is all about and verifying all your hundred of thousands of words you have used in confuting others? With this, I'm not implying that you do not have grounds for wanting to be provided with the kind of proof the world is accustomed to expect. And any claim on Atlantis being real, and as given by Plato in all its details, is what the world wants before "knowledgeable" skeptics like Jason and many of you here will stop your own jabbering.

As I said at first, both sides are wrong because both sides claims to know. There are things that, due to their nature, or the passage of long periods of time, cannot be known and remain enigmas. When it comes to being for or against something, for which absolute proof cannot be had, it is asinine to argue vehemently, which then escalates to insulting one another. Opinions is all that either side can claim. Then argue away as to whose opinion is closer to truth, and do not argue about truth itself. God only knows the truth. Have fun in your discourses and discordance, and do not pretend to be better than others with your mental abilities. We all end up dead and silently ignorant, in the end.

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