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The Ireland-as-Atlantis Crew Are Back, Now with Alleged Egyptian "Evidence"

7/9/2020

30 Comments

 
Could you imagine what pseudoarchaeology and pseudohistory would have been like had Plato never written of Atlantis? It’s an interesting thought experiment, since so much of modern “alternative” history derives directly or indirectly from efforts to investigate Plato’s allegorical ancient civilization. Without Atlantis, there would be many fewer crazy ideas about “white” rulers in ancient Mesoamerica, no “pole-shift” speculation, and no Fingerprints of the Gods. And since Atlantis ideas also fed into ancient astronaut claims, we’d probably have a lot less space alien nonsense, too. But, you live with what people actually did, not what you with they had done.
We’ve covered Keystone University (a non-accredited, for-profit adult education facility) and its zany ideas about Ireland as Atlantis before. Now, Anthony Woods of Keystone University has released the argument in book form, called Atlantis Ireland, with a rather ominous nationalist tagline about how the history of Ireland “has been written by her enemies.” That’s always a promising start for a supposedly sober evaluation of evidence for Atlantis.
 
To promote the book, Woods published a two-part discussion of its central claims on Ancient Origins. The evidence is the same as it was the last time we discussed Keystone University’s claims, but I was struck by Woods’s blatant illogic in his article and inability to see it. Consider these sequential paragraphs:
The most telling characteristic of Atlantis is that it was an island located in the Atlantic Ocean. Obviously, Ireland is an island in the Atlantic with an ancient people, language, and culture. There are an estimated 100,000 Stone Age constructions remaining in Ireland - including the most spectacular megaliths on Earth - as you would expect if they really were an advanced early civilization. Similar constructions (mounds, cairns, stone circles, dolmens, passage tombs, etc.) are found all over the world, proving that the entire world, not just Ireland, has a stunning and forgotten ancient history.
 
Some claim that Atlantis lies at the bottom of the ocean. However, science has eliminated this as a possibility and an island in the Atlantic that does exist is a much more viable explanation than an island that doesn’t.
 
There are many descriptions of Plato’s Atlantis that perfectly fit Ireland, while there are also many that don’t. It’s clear that Plato’s legend is useful but unreliable, that it combined two separate related places, a lot of exaggeration, and several historical errors.
That is a stunning lack of logic. Woods confidently asserts that he can match Ireland to Atlantis based on Plato’s description and simultaneously declares that the very evidence he used is “unreliable”!
 
Woods tries to weasel out of this by accepting Plato a second time in holding him true in asserting that the Atlantis story came to him via his ancestor Solon who got it from Egypt. However, since Plato’s narrative is fiction, there is no reason to believe that the claims about Solon heard the story in Egypt are any truer than Plato’s description of Atlantis’s elephants and orichalcum. If Plato is unreliable in one part of his story, there is no logical reason to pick and choose which parts to believe.
 
That doesn’t stop Woods from claiming that he has proof that the Egyptians claimed descent from Atlantis. “Ancient Egyptian texts describe how Egypt’s ancestors came from a sacred island in the Atlantic Ocean that was devastated in a great flood,” he writes. The texts do not.
 
As we saw when first Andrew Collins and then Graham Hancock tried the same trick, to make the case requires combining Egyptian texts promiscuously. It requires reading the Middle Kingdom “Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor,” about a sailor who arrives on a magical island and meets with a talking snake, in relation to the Ptolemaic Period Edfu Building Texts, which assert that the gods came to Egypt from a primeval overseas land and build the temple at Edfu in imitation of one from this land. None of this refers specifically to the Atlantic Ocean. The “Shipwrecked Sailor” story seems to take place in Nubia, not the Atlantic. The gods’ primeval island is not in the Atlantic either. All of our authors take their information from the main English-language source, The Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple by Eve A. E. Reymond. She specifically wrote that the Edfu texts give no indication of how the Egyptians imagined the primeval Earth, except that the island formed in the primeval waters. That doesn’t make them the Atlantic Ocean, which the Egyptians almost certainly didn’t know about until very late.
 
Woods tries a novel approach by bringing in some new evidence:
Several ancient Egyptian texts, including the Book of the Dead, The Pyramid Texts, and the Hymn of Rameses IV, tell of 10 kings who ruled during the reign of the gods. One of these was Thoth, the founder of the Egyptian civilization, who was born in a distant country to the west—a country which was across a body of water. […] According to Egyptian texts, this island in the Atlantic was overwhelmed by water. The 10 kings, including Thoth, travelled east to safety by boat. Stories tell of the founders of Egypt arriving from an island in the Atlantic around 11,900 years ago.
Manetho listed 16 gods who reigned after the creation, not 10, so the number is not consistent, and needless to say, there is no date of 9,900 BCE given. Thoth may have come from the West in the Pyramid texts, but not because he was from Atlantis. The pyramid texts assign a god to each cardinal direction: Seth and Nepthys to the north, Isis and Osiris to the south, Horus in the east, and Thoth in the west. To pick only one of the four god-direction pairings is cherry-picking evidence. When they spoke of Thoth, as the Moon, coming across water from the west, this wasn’t the Atlantic Ocean but the cosmic waters imagined to surround all land, just as the Greeks imagined the path to Hades crossed the River Ocean to the farthest west, just as his solar counterpart did from the east.
 
Woods also offers some shitty attempts to link Ireland to Greek mythology and history, mostly by identifying Ireland with Hyperborea, a fictitious land whose name referred to the imagined lands to the north, on the shore of the River Ocean, literally “beyond the north wind.” Sometimes it was identified with the British Isles, as when Diodorus described what seems to be Stonehenge as part of it.
 
However, Woods gives us this ridiculous claim: “Over time Hyperborea became Hybernia or Hibernia, the Roman name for Ireland.” That’s not at all true. The Latin name Hibernia was a Roman effort to transliterate Ἰουερνία, which was a rough Greek transliteration of the Celtic *Īweriū, which you know better as Eire, or Ireland. “Hibernia” was a Latin attempt to make it sound more Roman by assimilating it to the Latin word for winter. As we know from Ptolemy’s Geography 2.1, the Romans differentiated quite clearly between Hibernia and Hyperborea, located Hyperborea to the north of Hibernia.
 
In sum, Woods erects a cloud castle on a foundation of sand and expects that nationalist pride will overcome his lack of logic, reasoning, and evidence.
30 Comments
E.P. Grondine
7/9/2020 01:49:47 pm

For Plato's creation os his tale of Atlantis, see The Great Atlantic Impact Tsunam ,in "Man and Impact in the Americas", available through inter-library loan.

For research on the Spanish side of this impact event, I refer you to google.You can also use google to find recent work on impact tsunsmi in the Carolinas.

I am still awaiting a good translation of Al Idrisi for tales and myths from north west Africa (hint hint.)

There is no data yet from coastal Ireland, and sorting out bardic tales from hte surviving Irish myth histories in Christian versions holds no interest for me.


Reply
Kent
7/9/2020 09:29:05 pm

Any chance of you naming one library that has it? There has to be a fascinating backstory when someone can't print more copies of a self-published book.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
7/10/2020 12:55:25 pm

Kunt, go to any library, and ask the librarian to get you a copy.

Kent
7/10/2020 04:38:37 pm

First, your tendency to use foul and vulgar language is hardly in the spirit of the new dispensation. I'm astonished that Jason allowed it but perhaps as long as you don't spell it properly it's allowed. Perhaps one day I'll try out Mothrafokker.

So, no libraries then. Certainly not the Library of Congress.

McFly
7/10/2020 05:30:23 pm

This is like watching an 8th grade gym class when the sadistic teacher forces the two borderline special needs student to face off in the first match to start off the section on wrestling.

TONY S.
7/10/2020 07:40:58 pm

@E.P.,

I couldn't tell from your comment, and it's been a while since Iast posted here so I don't remember:

What's your position on Atlantis? Do you agree with Thorwald?

Reply
McFly
7/10/2020 10:08:01 pm

This is like watching an 8th grade gym class when the sadistic teacher forces the two borderline special needs student to face off in the first match to start off the section on wrestling.

E.P. Grondine
7/11/2020 10:26:14 am

Hi Tony -

My understanding of Plato's tale is set out in "Man and Impact in the Americas", available through inter library loan.

I do not know Thorwald's thinking, as he is not a member of the impact research group, nor he has not contacted me, nor has anyone who matters pointed me to him,.. So I will check out, his thinking and thanks for the pointer.

T. Franke link
7/12/2020 02:56:12 pm

"Man and Impact in the Americas" ..... seems to me a radically different approach to mine. Even the topic is radically different. It is more about asteroids and American Indians than about Atlantis, Egypt, etc.

TONY S.
7/12/2020 07:44:07 pm

@Thorwald

You and E.P. are both longtime posters here who have argued for years that Atlantis was real, so I was just curious how much in agreement the two of you were concerning the subject.

Just playing Devil's advocate here, since I don't believe Atlantis ever existed: even though your approaches are different they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

For example:

In Hancock's UNDERWORLD he covers Tamil flood myths. He subtracts the supposed duration of each Sangam (in years), with the result being that the date of the submerging of the First Sangam coincides with Plato's date for the sinking of Atlantis. The point is: same event, but different location. Perhaps the two of you can reconcile your approaches in that way if you were ever so inclined.

I used to read fringe authors when younger, so I've spent time in the past thinking of these things. I no longer put any stock into the possible reality of such tales, and I haven't for many years. But I still enjoy adventures into speculative thought every once in a while.

I thank you and E.P. for your replies.

T. Franke link
7/13/2020 06:41:49 am

Thank you Tony S. for your thoughts, you give me the opportunity to explain myself better. The reason why our approaches can never reconcile can be explained by commenting on your words:

(a) "with the result being that the date of the submerging of the First Sangam coincides with Plato's date for the sinking of Atlantis."

I clearly reject any literalist approach to Plato's date of 9000 years since these dates, occurring in all ancient Greek authors, reflect a common mistake of Plato's time. It is simply a wrong approach to try a literalist reading of any ancient text. It is the same as with Herodotus' 11340 years for Egypt: Clearly wrong, though not invented either. It's a mistake. When we relate the alleged 9000 years of Plato's Atlantis to the alleged age of Egypt, we get a clue which date Plato really meant beyond all his (and his predecessors' in handing down the story) mistakes.

(b) "I no longer put any stock into the possible reality of such tales, and I haven't for many years."

Please give just one more try: Here is another such tale! A certain Herodotus, called by certain critics as the "father of lies", tells of a country which is 11340 years old (and older!), founded by gods, and you find buildings there even bigger than the buildings of Atlantis. And while Atlantis changed over time, which is reasonable, the country about which Herodotus is talking did not change in all the time! And while in Atlantis there are cold northern winds and no rain in summer, this country seems to be blessed by the gods since there is a large river spending water all around the year. And there is a yearly flood of this river which is correlated to the stars! Really, to the stars!!! Now tell me: Which country of wonders is this?! What is tale, and what is history? Do you have a clue which country could be meant by Herodotus, though he made many mistakes in describing it?

I hope you enjoy this riddle :-) I feel a desire to expand this small piece to an article for Atlantis skeptics.

Bob Jase
7/9/2020 05:25:41 pm

And I'd heard it had been proven that Atlantis was in N. America. And S. America. And Spain. And in Santorini. And at Nan Matol in the Pacific. And...

Reply
Jim
7/9/2020 07:17:51 pm

I'd like to put forth Tuktoyaktuk as a possible location.

Reply
TONY S.
7/9/2020 07:47:46 pm

Ah yes, Ancient Origins. That bastion of historical accuracy.

I'm surprised he didn't try to say Hy-Brasil was one of the islands of Atlantis. Missed opportunity there. I guess he never read Hancock's UNDERWORLD.

Given its nationalist flavor, it will probably sell some copies to the element its meant to appeal to. Normal Atlantidiots will also want it for their "research". In the end it will probably go the way of Scott Creighton's trash: some immediate appeal to a small readership, then afterwards relegated to the limbo of other failed fringe ideas.

Reply
Bill
7/9/2020 10:12:06 pm

I'm confident that if past civilizations hadn't latched on to Atlantis that there would have been some other, equally ridiculous, similar thing to latch onto. I think it is human nature to dream and fantasize about this sort of thing.

Reply
William Fitzgerald
7/10/2020 07:45:53 pm

The Greco-Romans and some adjacent cultures were obsessed with Homer's Troy. We with Atlantis. You are right, if Plato's Atlantis never existed we'd latch on to something else.

Reply
Jr. Time Lord
7/11/2020 06:53:59 pm

How many Roman emperors claimed descent from Troy?

William Fitzgerald
7/12/2020 12:07:44 am

The Julia clan claimed descent from Aeneas, prince of Troy. Julius Caesar was of course their most famous member. His adopted son, Augustus, therefore claimed descent (see also Virgil).

Augustus was also related to Julius Caesar through his grandmother, Julia the younger, who was Julius Caesar's sister (though his claimed paternity made this connection less secure, see below).

All subsequent Julio-Claudian emperors could therefore legitimately claim - at least in the eyes (and laws) of the Romans - descent from Aeneas and thus Troy.

Augustus also claimed descent from the goddess Venus through Aeneas, the god Mars through descent from Romulus - traditionally considered the founder of Rome and its first King, and the god Apollo, who was rumored to have impregnated Augustus’s mother - though this would make his latter claims legitimate only through adoption by Julius Caesar.

So to answer your question, at least five emperors claimed, either explicitly or implicitly, descent from Troy. Even if Julio-Claudians were not strictly direct descendants of Julius Caesar as we would understand genetic and biological descent today. The Romans, however, considered adoption essentially the same as biological descent under Roman law and custom.

Of course, after Nero the line of descent stemming from Julius Caesar was broken. However, by this point the need to achieve legitimacy the way Augustus had - in order to avoid the fate of his adopted father - was less necessary. The Imperial Cult with the claim that the living Emperor was a god (a claim Augustus avoided while alive, likely to assuage any lingering republican sentiments) was by Nero established. After Nero there was less need to make convoluted claims to divinity the way Augustus had, therefore claims of being heirs of Troy were less necessary.

T. Franke link
7/12/2020 07:56:06 am

Thank you William Fitzgerald. This is another example where we can see that certain stories are accepted or rejected just as politics needs it.

Jason Colavito in his new book about the Mound Builder myth shows the same.

And concerning Atlantis we can see similar developements: E.g. the official Spanish point of view was that America is not Atlantis. Why this? Because they could keep their right of the first discoverer only, if there were no connections to America before Columbus.

T. Franke link
7/11/2020 12:52:56 pm

Bill, I agree. And it is weird that exactly Plato's Atlantis made the race. Because it is not the typical phantasy story. Atlantis is no paradise, there are no wonders, there are geophysical explanations, it is interwoven with Plato's philosophy (which he took very seriously), and the parts which we doubt as modern human beings correspond to similar parts in Herodotus' Histories and other ancient Greek texts which we explain as mistakes and not as inventions.

Eldorado would have been the better choice for dreamers and phantasy-lovers.

In antiquity, Plato's Atlantis was just considered a (sunken) real place without further ado. There was no hype around it.

Reply
T. Franke link
7/10/2020 02:54:17 pm

Well, they present just guesswork.

It is quite a good observation that a sunken island of greater size can be excluded. But what went wrong in the course of the assumed historical tradition that this mistake came into being? They should have tried to provide an answer. But they have none.

And I always laugh about Atlantis searchers who agree with Atlantis skeptics that Plato just invented something out of thing air when it comes to features of Atlantis they do not like because they do not fit to their wanted location.

The best thought is the first one: What would be if Atlantis is taken out of the game of pseudohistory? This can happen, but only one way: If Atlantis can be found. It is quite obvious that Plato wanted to point to a real place, but which one? And how to demonstrate this? Once it will be achieved, pseudohistory will look differently.

Reply
Kent
7/10/2020 10:04:40 pm

"Plato’s allegorical ancient civilization"

Wait, what? You're saying Atlantis is a made up story about someone telling someone a story about someone telling a story about a story someone told someone a story? You need to apply the historico-critical method!

Reply
T. Franke link
7/11/2020 12:46:42 pm

Indeed, Kent, but you mirepresent the story itself. You should not deviate from the real story in order to make your case, otherwise you could run into danger to be considered a person with no good arguments.

Your mistake is: Plato talks of handing down written texts. Not only oral tradition.

And the truth is: Every story is handed down to us via a chain of tradition. E.g. the story of the Persian Wars by Herodotus is handed down not directly from Herodotus to us, but Herodotus himself relied on sources (which he often explicitly names), and then Herodotus' work has been written and re-written several times, until the Middle Ages manuscripts which we have today. These manuscripts have been analyzed by experts who produced modern editions ... yes, this too is another step in the chain. Not to forget the translations into modern languages.

The key question is: Did the Persian Wars happen? Were they real? Although we have such a long chain of tradition? And Herodotus is the only author for so many things he tells us.

Consider this question especially under the perspective that Herodotus tells us clearly wrong pseudo-facts, such as an age of Egypot of 11340 (and more) years), or incredible numbers for the Persian army.

And consider this under the perspective that Herodotus' Histories make a very well-written morality tale! (Even better than Plato's Atlantis story where the good guys suffer destruction, too)

Reply
Kent
7/11/2020 08:54:47 pm

And a lot of so-called "classical" material was written (falsified) in the late middle ages. So I sleep the sleep of the just, Mister Et Tu Quoque.

T. Franke link
7/12/2020 07:52:23 am

Yes, Kent, a lot of material had been falsified. But concering the texts of Herodotus and Plato, scholars mostly agree that they are original. With Plato having been preserved with a higher quality than Herodotus.

But there are of course modern authors who think that at least the Atlantis dialogue "Critias" is a falsification. See my discussion of this relatively new claim here:

A strange Debate about the Authenticity of the Critias. My Arguments – and what is really behind this strange debate
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-authenticity-critias-engl.htm

Donald C. Patterson
7/12/2020 09:44:44 am

I've been to Ireland. Can't say I ever saw any concentric circle harbors anywhere on the island.

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
7/12/2020 02:05:54 pm

I wish everyone that quotes Diodorus Siculus on the "Round Temple" of the Hyperboreans would give the entire quote. It may indeed refer to Sonehenge, or even the larger henges of Avebury or the newly discovered wooden or earthern Mega-Henges surrounding the Stonehenge plains. Here is the quote in it's entirety:
"Now for our part, since we have seen fit to make mention of the regions of Asia which lie to the north, we feel that it will not be foreign to our purpose to discuss the legendary accounts of the Hyperboreans.32 Of those who have written about the ancient myths, Hecataeus and certain others say that in the regions beyond the land of the Celts33 there lies in the ocean an island no smaller
p39
than Sicily. This island, the account continues, is situated in the north and is inhabited by the Hyperboreans, who are called by that name because their home is beyond the point whence the north wind (Boreas) blows; and the island is both fertile and productive of every crop, and since it has an unusually temperate climate it produces two harvests each year. 2 Moreover, the following legend is told concerning it: Leto34 was born on this island, and for that reason Apollo is honoured among them above all other gods; and the inhabitants are looked upon as priests of Apollo, after a manner, since daily they praise this god continuously in song and honour him exceedingly. And there is also on the island both a magnificent sacred precinct of Apollo and a notable temple which is adorned with many votive offerings and is spherical in shape. 3 Furthermore, a city is there which is sacred to this god, and the majority of its inhabitants are players on the cithara; and these continually play on this instrument in the temple and sing hymns of praise to the god, glorifying his deeds.
4 The Hyperboreans also have a language, we informed, which is peculiar to them, and are most friendly disposed towards the Greeks, and especially towards the Athenians and the Delians,35 who have inherited this good-will from most ancient times. The myth also relates that certain Greeks visited the Hyperboreans and left behind them there costly votive offerings bearing inscriptions in Greek letters. 5 And in the same way Abaris,36 a Hyperborean, came
p41
to Greece in ancient times and renewed the good-will and kinship of his people to the Delians. They say also that the moon, as viewed from this island, appears to be but a little distance from the earth and to have upon it prominences, like those of the earth, which are visible to the eye. 6 The account is also given that the god visits the island every nineteen years, the period in which the return of the stars to the same place in the heavens is accomplished; and for this reason the nineteen-year period is called by the Greeks the "year of Meton."37 At the time of this appearance of the god he both plays on the cithara and dances continuously the night through from the vernal equinox until the rising of the Pleiades, expressing in this manner his delight in his successes. And the kings of this city and the supervisors of the sacred precinct are called Boreadae, since they are descendants of Boreas, and the succession to these positions is always kept in their family."

Now what I always found more fascinating in this was his description of the religious use of the temple. When he says there was a hereditary priesthood that played hymns on stringed instruments and had traditions of extremely ancient contacts with Greece aren't we induced to picture the early antiquarians' descriptions of Druid bards chanting among the stones and examining the revolutions of the heavens? Can we at the very least entertain the possibility that even if the Druids as an order did not exist at the time Stonehenge was fully developed (a blanket claim consistently made by all so-called scholars and professional archaeologists who nevertheless can't agree if they were a purely Iron Age Celtic priesthood or had an earlier lineage.) we have at least one late but supposedly eye witness account of Druids performing human sacrifice over a stone monument in the Life of St. Samson of Dol, not to mention the similar Irish legend of Crom Cruaich.
Is it really too wide a stretch to imagine an unbroken tradition of megalithic ritual passing from a Neolithic proto-druidic caste to at least the Classical Age? The Hindu Brahmanic or Vedic ritualists stretch at least as far yet I know of no Orientalists who seriously question their span of continuous evolution right up to the present.

Reply
William Fitzgerald
7/13/2020 06:24:13 pm

Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women!

Reply
Komantcia
7/13/2020 02:27:04 pm

Just an interesting tidbit (in response to William Fitzgerald’s posting).

MODERN (relatively speaking) Emperors etc. have also claimed “descent” from Aeneas.

For example - the Habsburg's claimed descent from Aeneas“

Regards

Komantcia

Reply
Vincent Adams
1/13/2021 05:46:24 am

A lot of very harsh comments here - I actually think these guys are on to something big with this 'Atlantis Ireland' theory, its a lot more logical than most of the nonsense you see online

Of all the theories for Atlantis i have heard their summary video makes a lot of sense to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ykNWf5H16Q

Also, it should be remembered that Ireland is an island in the Atlantic & its mounds are older then the pyramids

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