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The New York Times Runs Major Feature on "Ancient Aliens," Casts Ancient Astronaut Theorists as Friendly, Lovable Rogues Searching for God

7/21/2018

107 Comments

 
​The New York Times ran a major feature online on Saturday which will appear in print in the July 22 Sunday print edition covering Alien Con and the Ancient Aliens television show. While the article by Steven Kurutz pays lip service to the problems with the ancient astronaut theory, the overall thrust of the article is a celebration of the community that has formed around the Ancient Aliens television show. This was especially disappointing to me because Kurutz interviewed me at length several weeks ago for the piece, and he had told me that he planned to use my interview in the article to discuss the dark side of the ancient astronaut theory, including its ties to racist ideas and white nationalism, as well as the racist, anti-Semitic, and paranoid statements made by the show’s talking heads, including Erich von Däniken (who called Blacks a “failed” experiment), David Wilcock (who blamed the Jews for trying to kill him), and the late Jim Marrs (who alleged that the Jews and Obama were working together to destroy America). 
​I did not make it into the piece, nor did any of the research material he asked me to provide about Ancient Aliens and the ancient astronaut theory. I wondered at first if I was cut from because I criticized the Times’ coverage of the Pentagon UFO program and To the Stars Academy of Arts and Sciences. I had identified conflicts of interest with article reporter Leslie Kean, a true believer and professional UFO advocate, as well as her coauthor, former Times reporter Ralph Blumenthal, who accused me of attempted libel and conspiracy theories. Kurutz emailed me late this evening to say that my interview was cut during editing, which shrank the article by 800 words. The editors, for whatever reason, dropped material about the dark side of the ancient astronaut theory. The Times, it seems, has a soft spot for space aliens and the billionaires and corporations who make money selling stories of them to the public. 
 
To that end, Kurutz (or, rather, the article as it turned out after the Times edited it) chose not to engage much with the ancient astronaut theory as an idea except to say it is essentially a faith beyond the need for evidence and instead looked at it as a pop cultural phenomenon. As a result, he soft-pedaled the dark side of conspiracy theories, dismissed critics as “naysayers,” and presented ancient astronaut believers as a bunch of loveable rogues. Consider, for example, the nearly worshipful way he describes Giorgio Tsoukalos: “He was dressed as he would be all weekend, in the khaki shirt and pants and sturdy leather boots of a field archaeologist, though in the strict academic sense, he has no such accreditation.” No, not the “strict academic sense”—in any sense. He holds a bachelor’s degree in sports information. He has never written a book, nor conducted any original research. (His ideas come from von Däniken, who provides them wholesale.) “It is not fancy credentials but the way he expresses gut beliefs that makes him compelling to viewers; that, and his hair.” Later, Kurutz says—on his own authority—that it is “unfair” to criticize Tsoukalos’s lack of credentials because “M.I.T. isn’t giving out Ph.D.s in ancient astronaut theory.”
 
It gets worse, if that is possible, when Kurutz describes David Childress. “David Hatcher Childress, who gets nearly as much screen time as Mr. Tsoukalos, is a real-life Indiana Jones who climbs megalithic ruins in Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley equipped with a brown felt hat and a notebook.” The only thing Childress has in common with Indiana Jones is that both play-act at being archaeologists on screen and have no respect for the cultures they ravage like bulls in a china shop. The description of Childress is taken nearly verbatim from Childress’s own press materials, which appear on the back of all his books.
 
No mention is made of Ancient Aliens talking heads who have caused controversy. Sean David Morton was tried for an elaborate tax fraud scheme. David Wilcock appeared on Russian television to denounce America. Several have made racist or anti-Semitic statements.
 
Kurutz declined to criticize the History Channel for airing anti-historical garbage—indeed the network’s role in promoting conspiracy theories is conveniently expunged—but he puts in some lucrative plugs for Berkeley Books’ upcoming rerelease of Chariots of the Gods, the forthcoming Baltimore edition of Alien Con, and other profit-making ventures.
 
It wasn’t all bad, of course. The most important passage in the article is one that echoes what I have said as recently as yesterday, that Ancient Aliens is actually a show about Christian salvation history masquerading as a science program. Here is Kurutz describing, in loving detail, Ancient Aliens executive producer Kevin Burns’s rationale for the show’s existence:
The invocation of religion is deliberate. In Mr. Burns’s view, “Ancient Aliens” succeeds because it explores spirituality and the mystery of life in an increasingly secular, data-driven culture. Like religion, it offers seekers an origin story.
 
“It’s not about little green men in outer space. That’s the three-headed snake lady that gets you into the tent,” Mr. Burns said. “It’s really a show about looking for God. Science would have you believe we are the result of nothing more than a chance assemblage of matter. The real truth is we don’t know.”
 
The questions posed by the ancient astronaut theorists, however far-fetched, serve a rare purpose, according to Mr. Burns: “It allows the audience to wonder. And very few things on television do that.” 
​Tellingly, Kurutz lets that stand unchallenged. What does it say that our society and the New York Times are happy to accept the notion that awe and wonder are to be found in fakery and fraud because reality is simply too awful to contemplate undistorted by fantasy? When Kurutz interviews Ken Feder about the ancient astronaut theory, he is uninterested in the actual problems with the idea, or its dark side; instead, Kurutz focuses on the idea that “Mr. Feder wasn’t rooting against the ancient astronaut theorists finding hard proof.”
 
Some of the incidental details are indescribably sad. Kurutz describes paranoiacs who believe that Ancient Aliens is being censored and that there are deeper revelations they can’t reveal. He quotes a woman who tells the ancient astronaut theorists that she is “indoctrinating” her kindergartener in the ancient astronaut theory so he won’t believe what the schools will try to teach him. He watches as an old woman collapses in tears upon meeting Tsoukalos, as though his touch were the healing hand of a medieval monarch. A disturbed audience member demanded to know why Ancient Aliens doesn’t try to attack “physics and math.”
 
To his credit, Kurutz gives Feder the last word, to remind readers that human beings are more amazing and impressive than imaginary ancient astronauts might ever be.
 
But the article was a huge missed opportunity, and it continues a disturbing trend of normalizing extreme and damaging points of view by casting them as legitimate and justified, rather than merely understandable. Understanding shouldn’t equate to endorsement, nor should America’s greatest newspaper use false equivalency and superficial balance to imply that those who profit handsomely from peddling dangerous lies are simply smiling, friendly cartoons. 
​
Note: Due to this special Saturday blog post, there will be no new blog post on Tuesday.
107 Comments
Riley V
7/21/2018 03:22:02 pm

Thank you.
Sounds like it will be a “Fun Feature” for the Saturday paper. A nice puff piece about TV.
Fortunately most folks have more important things to do on Saturdays. Take the kids and/or dogs to the park, got to the beach, or go see a movie. Maybe a trip to the driving range or gun range.

I love your work.

Reply
Therese Barnard link
4/12/2019 05:30:11 pm

Your article fails to mention the history portrayed on Ancient Aliens. I have learned more about the history of the world than I ever learned in school.
It doesn’t tell you what to believe but it’s a “what if” scenario. I have learned about Tesla, Einstein
to name a couple. I love learning about all the
amazing architectural and archeological sites all over the world. Some places of interest I have never known existed. The information given on this wonderful program always causes me to investigate more on the history of all the areas they travel to and I really enjoy studying history.
Your article is completely biased and unfair.

Reply
Uncle Ron
7/21/2018 03:25:10 pm

The Times has an agenda, as does most of the media, and it doesn't include asking people to think critically about what they tell us. If your comments had been used in the article it most likely would not have been to counter the major thrust of the article or provide a skeptical balance; rather it would have been to show that there are crackpots out there who are haters and deniers and just don't want people to be happy.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
7/21/2018 04:08:34 pm

"David Hatcher Childress, who gets nearly as much screen time as Mr. Tsoukalos, is a real-life Indiana Jones who climbs megalithic ruins in Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley equipped with a brown felt hat and a notebook.”

The NYT has that wrong, way way wrong:

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%201.pdf.

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%202.pdf

http://www.danieljglenn.com/the_podcasts/Stelle/Documentation/He%20Walked%20Among%20Us%20Part%203.pdf

Reply
Americanegro
7/21/2018 04:24:27 pm

Yeah, you've never posted that link before. No one cares to click on it, Chief.

Who had 4:08 in the pool?

Reply
Suzie Q link
7/21/2018 08:11:09 pm

Oh Geesh…..This stuff is way too fast for me. But I do share Jason's sense of injustice when writers, explorers, TV talk show hosts, "docu" film producers and wanna-beees lay it on thick with the Indiana Jones hats, trekking boots, and whatever props will bolster their image as original researchers, explorers, et cetera. No real archaeologist in Egypt or Stonehenge or Machu Pichu needs those silly Hollywood props.. It's similar to Magdalene reincarnations appearing with red hair (dyed of course) to convince their audiences they are the real thing...every time I see women with red hair writing books about Magdalene, or men with "Indiana Jones" hats writing books about aliens at the pyramids....I know they are selling us their delusions, not facts..... I smile. Then turn the channel.

Cesar
7/21/2018 08:22:55 pm

Some people chose Arktos: the Polar Myth as the worst book cover in print history. They did not see the cover of 5/5/2000. Both were published by Adventures Unlimited Press. The difference is that Arktos is a good book and its publication by Adventures Unlimited was kind of a joke by Joscelyn Godwin.

Reply
Americanegro
7/21/2018 04:22:20 pm

You're sounding like the only person who's ever been not included.

Veering toward Art Bell "people are shooting at me" territory. Here's a hint: no one was shooting. Art went crazy. Don't be Art.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
7/21/2018 04:25:50 pm

It's hardly the first or only time I haven't been in something I was interviewed for (you don't hear about most because I don't tell you), but it was surprising because the reporter told both me and other people that I was going to be featured in the piece.

Reply
Americanegro
7/21/2018 05:19:32 pm

It would be interesting to hear hwaet! words the reporter used. I always take contemporaneous notes. Living in a two party state I don't record. Or do I?

V
7/21/2018 04:47:05 pm

...okay, Mr.Kurutz, stop for a moment and use your goddamn brain. Not only is it not "unfair" to criticize fora lack of credentials because "MIT doesn't offer a degree in it," the fact that NO ACCREDITED INSTITUTION offers a degree in it is absolutely a reason why we SHOULD be criticizing!

Seriously, I feel like I've been watching the death of critical thinking and academic inquiry happening right before my eyes...

Reply
bezalel
7/22/2018 03:18:35 am

"...I feel like I've been watching the death of critical thinking...."

Yupppppppp

"You can't prove aliens didn't visit ancient egypt!!!"

Reply
V
7/24/2018 12:31:48 pm

I like to respond to that one with "You can't prove that I didn't piss on your foot just now, either." And when they sputter and go "Yes I can!" I go, "You can't prove a negative, but there's as much evidence for me pissing on your foot just now as there is for aliens visiting ancient Egypt."

Joe Scales
7/24/2018 04:37:39 pm

"I like to respond to that one with "You can't prove that I didn't piss on your foot just now, either." "

Yeah... you might want to actually understand logical terms of art before you make asinine challenges. Come on V. I'm sure there are numerous ways to prove you didn't just piss on their foot. And no, Google ain't gonna help you.

Cesar
7/21/2018 05:02:30 pm

“the healing hand of a medieval monarch”

Mr. Colavito is alluding to a historiographical classic of Marc Bloch (1886-1944), the hero of the French resistance executed by the Nazi. The book is Les Rois Thaumaturges (1924) or The Royal Touch (1990).

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Americanegro
7/21/2018 05:13:30 pm

That's fine for scrofula but for a more serious deal athelas is what is wanted. I will wait without until the appropriate hour.

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Cesar
7/21/2018 07:55:34 pm

It seems that only good kings like saint Louis (1214–1270) cured scrofula. Bad kings like Edward II of England (1284-1327) did not. In this case people recurred to Athelas.

Causticacrostic
7/23/2018 11:15:21 am

The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.

Hal
7/21/2018 10:24:57 pm

The only breaking news is that Jason is once again crying that he’s being ignored. Facist liberals want everyone to hold their beliefs and preferences as reality. They are too stupid to have any self insight.

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bezalel
7/22/2018 03:27:18 am

Hal
Increase your awareness.

And

Stop denying you are William Henry

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Rose
7/22/2018 04:24:27 am

Hal who? Has he ever done five minutes of actual rrsearch, or is he one of those arm chair archaeologists who spew whatever dingbat theory is on the sci-fi book shelves? Lots of them in the science fiction community. Lots of not so subliminal racism as well. Finally, sounds as though David Chidress finally got rid of his cheesy fake "English" accent.

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Kal
7/22/2018 01:09:37 am

The NY Times has been in the pocket of big business and the next rich guy for years, maybe decades, with their 'best seller list' and their highly opinionated editorials disguised as journalistic facts. It is doubtful they care very much about a blog such as this, just because it is not run by some high society yes person. And yes, the best seller's list is rigged. You ever wonder why the most obscure polticos in the current know (like reality TV stars) get a best seller? They pay the paper. In the case of this article too, someone paid big bucks to be in it. And some dude pretending to be Indiana Jones in 2018 is pretty funny. Maybe they should put a 'Make America Great Again' hat on him on the cover. Just as well Mr. Colavito wasn't included in the short list for a nod in the paper. Maybe you can apply for an article in Skeptic or something.

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Americanegro
7/23/2018 01:45:49 pm

The NYT is and has been for most of the 20th century a Zionist tool, and Zionism is the major mistake of the U.N. in the 20th century. If we called it "Fucking with Jordanians (because "Palestinians" is made up, Yasser Arafat was Tunisian)" it would be less acceptable.

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Titus pullo
7/22/2018 08:06:07 am

A very good post! The only point i would question is referring to the nyt as americas greatest paper. They denied Stalins killing of 10 million ukranian farmers and refused to cover horrible communist atrocities. And less not forget they beat the war drums for the iraq war. The nyt owners have an agenda like everyone else.

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V
7/24/2018 12:34:27 pm

...he said America's GREATEST paper, not America's MOST TRUTHFUL paper, just gonna say...

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Joe Scales
7/22/2018 10:07:51 am

So we can all agree then. It's the failing New York Times?

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An Anonymous Nerd
7/22/2018 05:16:33 pm

Mr. Scales:

The Times has in this instance (and others as I acknowledge) either failed or come so close that the difference means nothing. (To save space I'll just say "failed" in this instance.)

To use your language, however, would be to echo the thoughts of President Trump, which have important disadvantages.

1 - He's been clear that "fake" news is anything negative about him. (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/994179864436596736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

2 - One of the ways in which the Times failed in this instance, as Mr. Colavito has highlighted, is to ignore an important piece of understanding Ancient Aliens, and that is the undeniable special relationship between the Fringe and the Right.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Joe Zias
7/22/2018 11:37:55 am

The fact that the NYT published this BS is inexcusable. It one of those Murdoch papers I'd give it a pass but in the NYT? Who is watching the staff there, too much time spent on DT?

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Brady Yoon
7/22/2018 12:48:57 pm

Is nyt really considered the greatest American newspaper??

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An Anonymous Nerd
7/22/2018 08:14:31 pm

Once upon a time, definitely, and that was meant unironically and when there was more and better competition.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/23/2018 12:15:19 am

Precisely. "Most influential" would be a better superlative today. For good or ill, that description is undoubtedly true.

Americanegro
7/22/2018 01:05:00 pm

"as well as the racist, anti-Semitic, and paranoid statements made by the show’s talking heads, including Erich von Däniken (who called Blacks a “failed” experiment), David Wilcock (who blamed the Jews for trying to kill him), and the late Jim Marrs (who alleged that the Jews and Obama were working together to destroy America)."

To be fair, the Israelis did try to assassinate President Truman with a letter bomb and did a darn good job of shooting up the U.S.S. Liberty. And murdered a Moroccan waiter in 1973.

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Tom mellett
7/22/2018 01:08:01 pm

Jason,

There’s a very good journalistic reason NOT to publish your charges of racism, antisemitism, pseudo-history, etc., in this article because it appears as the front-page article in the Sunday Styles section of The NY Times.

This section covers Lifestyle, Relationships and Society and is the closest the Times gets to a Fashion and Gossip section. My God, the last 3 pages cover the marriage vows made by various couples to each other.

There is a 3x3 grid of photos on the front page, showing 9 exemplars of AlienCon fashion. Inside the article covers pp. 8 and 9 and surely someone might be sending you one of the Giorgio Bobblehead Dolls that sold so well there.

Now maybe Kurutz pulled a classic “Bait-and-Switch” with you, leading you on to believe that his article was going to be substantive and not so frivolous, or maybe the PTB at the NYT decided to switch it to the Styles section as Blumenthal’s revenge on you, but as the article stands now, in that Styles section, you don’t have any case to whine.
———-

OK, now I realize the headlines are different for the paper edition compared to the online article. Here’s the heading and sub-heading for the paper edition:

E.T., WE’RE HERE
Tales of ancient astronauts, Bigfoot and mysteries of the cosmos (and plenty of skepticism for scientific theory) draw thousands to AlienCon.

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Jason Colavito link
7/22/2018 01:15:22 pm

Oh, come now, Tom. You couldn't run a feature on the best bleaches for KKK robes in the Style section and argue that racism isn't important because the article is about fashion! Even the Style section has to have some standards.

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Americanegro
7/23/2018 07:33:23 pm

But if it's wearing the robes you'd be all over BleachCon Chicago 2018. How many dead my friend?

Bill link
7/22/2018 07:19:14 pm

Tom Mellett said, "There’s a very good journalistic reason NOT to publish your charges of racism, antisemitism, pseudo-history, etc., in this article..." I'll add another reason:

As I cautioned in a previous post, Jason, you are losing credibility with your conspiracy theories about ancient astronaut theorists and believers. Anybody who becomes personally acquainted with some of them (even casually) and attends a few of these conventions quickly realizes that this is a very diverse bunch of people philosophically and politically. Most of them are NOT racists, and they would recognize a statement about blacks being a failed race that you attribute to Von Daniken's as being really stupid. Most of them are NOT anti-semites, and they subscribe to the principle that all people should be allowed to believe and peaceably worship in their own way.

When someone mixes prejudice into the ancient astronaut theory, just as some physicians did into medicine centuries ago, by all means call it out and condemn it on a case-by-case basis as you have done, but don't also try tarnish the entire field with it as you have also been trying to do of late. Otherwise, let's start saying that the study of medicine is a dangerous quack science because of racist, misogynistic, and just plain stupid ideas that some people passed off as "medical science" in the past.

Jason, I think that MUFON is holding its annual symposium in New Jersey this coming weekend (July 28-29). I don't know how far that is from your home in New York, and I'm not sure if the admission price is a barrier, but I could recommend going not because you are especially interested in modern-day UFOs, but just to chit-chat with the people who attend, not as a debunker but just to get to know what kind of people these are. I doubt that you will hear a single presenter espouse racism or anti-semitism, not because they are trying to be politically correct, but because that kind of stuff is simply not on the radar of the overwhelming majority of people who are involved.

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Jason Colavito link
7/22/2018 07:56:31 pm

You make the mistake of thinking that the audience's diversity cancels out the meaning of the theory. The recipients of propaganda are people that the propagandist wants to convince; the fact that they are not already true believers cannot be retroactively pushed back onto the propagandist to absolve him of sin. To wit: The Trump Administration says many false things in order convince the public of the position du jour but Trump's coalition is itself diverse, made up of people who believe in him for a variety of reasons. By your reasoning, the effects of Trump's policies are irrelevant as long as some of the people who support him think something different.

Americanegro
7/22/2018 08:45:55 pm

"The Trump Administration says many false things in order convince the public of the position du jour."

So unlike the Obama Administration. Did "Josh Ernest" have a single day when he told the truth?

Jason, you're a kid. I do my own drlving and my own boning.

Why is Trump good?

Because he is not Hilary Clinton. That fishy smelling bird's nest down there harridan would be a disaster as President and with any luck in 2020 she'll be again a disaster as a candidate. Sauve Romney both parties have failed to field a good candidate since Bush v. Gore.

Jason Colavito link
7/22/2018 10:44:42 pm

Trump is the current president and therefore the current example, jackass. Stop it with the snark and the whataboutism. Either stay on topic or stop posting.

Joe Scales
7/23/2018 12:15:44 am

Jason,
Your gratuitous political swipes may impress a few partisan cheerleaders here, and perhaps ease your conscience, but look what you have invited here. And yeah, I do realize when I bring this up you'll go out of your way to keep doing it in your next post. I'm actually trying to help you here, believe it or not. Politics makes you sloppy, and often enough, gives you the appearance of ignorance. So what do you want to accomplish here. A political stand or reasoned confrontation of the fringe. You really can't do both. Or shouldn't, that is. Not if you seek credibility.

A,ericanegro
7/23/2018 04:22:34 am

I think the word "jackass" also "snark" is inappropriate. What the fuck, dude? Trump is the current President so we can't talk about Nixon because that would be whataboutism and snark?

I voted for Reagan superhigh on pot and LSD when you were being squeezed out. The only time I ever voted.

Bill link
7/23/2018 05:03:12 pm

Jason, you commented: "You make the mistake of thinking that the audience's diversity cancels out the meaning of the theory. The recipients of propaganda are people that the propagandist wants to convince; the fact that they are not already true believers cannot be retroactively pushed back onto the propagandist to absolve him of sin."

I think this is where we disagree. I don't believe that the ancient astronaut theory began as an attempt to foist racist and/or anti-semitic propaganda on the world. That's rather like saying that the study of medicine was created by the German Nazis as a tool of genocide because the Nazis misused and abused medicine that way, therefore medicine is a dangerous belief system and we need to stop teaching it. Ancient astronaut theory has had many permutations and many authors with different ideas, but they hardly lock arms together and pass out KKK recruitment flyers at UFO conventions. Two examples:

(1) Georgio Tsoukalos has openly stated his left-leaning political beliefs, and you have recognized that fact. Yet here he is working with Erich Von Daniken who is more conservative politically. It's the ancient astronaut subject that brings them together, not their political beliefs.

(2) An ancient astronaut theorist with a large following is the late Zecharia Sitchin who is considered by his fans to be one of the pioneers of modern ancient astronaut theory. He comes from a Jewish background, and if I recall his theory correctly, he accepts the evidence of modern humans appearing in Africa a few hundred thousand years ago, he just theorizes that it happened because of ET bio-engineering. I have not perused his books in a long time, but I don't recall him suggesting anything about those Africans having been in any way "inferior" in the ET creation scheme. (But if I'm wrong on this point, please correct me with a citation.)

I agree that racism and anti-Semitism mixed into ANY study need to be called out whether it is in medicine, history, or ancient astronaut theory. But I'm not going to throw out an entire field of study just because some people have twisted it for propaganda purposes. Then we may just as well close down our schools and stop teaching anything.

Americanegro
7/23/2018 11:00:35 pm

The problem with Sitchin is not that he's a Jew, it's that he's a lying Azerbaijani fuck who claims to know languages that he doesn't know. You're welcome.

Joe Scales
7/24/2018 10:10:06 am

A theory dies on its merits; or better put in regard to Ancient Aliens, the lack thereof. It doesn't fail because of the character of who promotes it, or promoted it a lifetime or two ago. But it is human nature to associate that which we dislike. Ancient Alien Theorists and racists. Fringe history and your political opponents. Not to say that no connections can ever be made, but they are sought out, highlighted and generalized to smear the whole, while ignoring your true motivation for doing so.

V
7/24/2018 12:46:59 pm

...sweetie, your argument is like trying to argue that because Mein Kampf has been read by an exceptionally broad and diverse group of people, it's not racist. The problem is that you CAN'T extract the racism from the message itself, and that message is reinforcing racism that does already exist. I HAVE gotten to know a number of ancient aliens believers, and frankly, I heard a SHITTON of racism out of them. And yet, when I pointed out that it was racist, and how, they were deeply shocked, in many cases agreeing with me that now that they looked at it, yes, that (whatever was said) was terribly racist.

That's the problem with racism. It's not always blatant, in-your-face, and labeled. Way more often, it's hidden enough that a broad spectrum of people don't even REALIZE they're being racist. It's not about what's been spouted in the past, either. It's about what's being spouted RIGHT NOW.

Bill link
7/24/2018 07:22:21 pm

Hi V. Good on you for pointing out the racism to those people. However, it is certainly not my observation that every ancient alien book is the equivalent of a "Mein Kampf." They have much more of a "gee whiz, I'll bet those were space aliens!" attitude without a political agenda. When an ancient astronaut theorist DOES inject personal bigotry into the discussion, which a few of them have indeed done (but certainly not the majority) then yes, it needs to be called out on a case-by-case basis.

I think Joe Scales summed up the situation very well above: "A theory dies on its merits; or better put in regard to Ancient Aliens, the lack thereof. It doesn't fail because of the character of who promotes it, or promoted it a lifetime or two ago.

And, as for ancient alien/UFO belief being responsible for the ascendancy of the right in American politics today, then Hillary should be our President because of her friendliness to those topics, no doubt influenced by the similar friendliness of her husband Bill and advisor John Podesta. Oh wait, she DID win the popular vote.

An Anonymous Nerd
7/24/2018 07:37:36 pm

Mr. Scales:

Mr. Colavito and (to a lesser extent) myself have pointed out time and again, using appropriate examples and methods of analysis, the special relationship between the Fringe and the Right -- especially now. No one has said the Right has a monopoly on the Fringe but it should be clear by now that a special relationship exists.

Your responses have ranged from reliance on conspiracy theories (like when you used a flimsy connection to try to twist a topic to question the Russia investigation), insults (like when you questioned my intelligence time and time again), stock psychologically-oriented responses (like when you try to assert that Mr. Colavito and I are merely lumping together two groups that you don't like), and other stock responses of that nature.

Sorry to be so politically incorrect about this but what your responses have lacked is anything that calls into serious question the central point.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Rackham
7/25/2018 01:40:07 pm

" Most of them are NOT racists, and they would recognize a statement about blacks being a failed race that you attribute to Von Daniken's as being really stupid."

I was recently sifting through my 1960s and 1970s Robert Charroux, Von Daniken and other fringe historian books. It was quite impressive to see how central the "blacks are failed experiments" theme was. In some books, about half the content was related to this idea. Now, you can say it was almost 50 years ago, but given how recycling ideas is a tradition in this literary style, we have got plenty of proof it was still going on. As for the diversity, you are right. But we can say exactly the same thing about Nazi Party members who were probably extremely diverse and probably had variable level of belief in various ideological points. And on the personal level, most of them probably were honorable citizens. As a mass of people pushing forward and bolstering an idea, this diversity did very little to thin down the poison. I'm not a fan of ad hitlerum metaphor BTW.

Bill link
7/25/2018 03:49:55 pm

Rackham: What would really help, since you have the books to hand, is to cite the titles of the books and page numbers where the racist material is found. And, if you have the time, to quote (not paraphrase) the racist passages. (I know we are all busy, so just the titles and page numbers are fine if that's what you have time for.)

An Anonymous Nerd
7/22/2018 05:07:17 pm

The title of the online version of the article ("Suspicious Minds") is highly misleading. Neither the article nor its subject has a suspicious mind. Buying into the ancient aliens notion requires the exact opposite of a suspicious mind, because there's no way to get there based on the evidence. You have to make stuff up instead.

The article seems to recognize this, but not to care.

I'm very depressed.

-An Anonymous Nerd

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orang
7/22/2018 11:58:02 pm

I have always heard that the NYT was the best American newspaper. Of the meager 8 or so papers that I've subscribed to in my life, the NYT was head and shoulders above the rest. The 2nd best is the Wall St Journal, although the editorial pages are a waste of trees.

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Americanegro
7/23/2018 04:32:17 am

"Suspicious Minds" is a wonderful song by Elvis, thank you very much by the melongeons.

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Machala
7/24/2018 01:08:17 pm

Jason,
I earn my meager mite making fun of political figures on every side of the political balloon, and take great delight in puncturing the over-inflated egos of dictators and would-be dictators. I have enough on my plate in my own hell's kitchen, with Maduro, Ortega, Morales, Correa, and a slew more, so I really don't want to get involved in a polemic concerning Emperor Trump.

I realize that it's almost unavoidable, given the current toxic atmosphere in the United States, to draw conclusion about the "hidden" and "not-so-hidden" agendas of many of the personalities associated with the fringes of ufology and ancient alien speculation. But beware that your efforts to expose a certain element of white racist sentiment doesn't detract from all your other scholarly work and become an obsession.

I'm not sure that this is the proper forum for political debate and it's not what I read your blog for...but, at the same time, I realize that much of what you are trying to expose is germane to your position and relevant in light of the current atmosphere in the U.S.

Just don't take everything personally. When an ideal or idea becomes personal, you lose not only your objective edge, but can, if not careful, lose your audience.

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orang
7/24/2018 01:27:50 pm

machala As I recall, Jason has always stated that he believes that the rise of fringe beliefs and the rise of the right are linked, and one purpose of this blog is to expose that link. Therefore, it would be impossible to eliminate politics from this blog, especially since America appears to be going down the toilet. I am frankly surprised at the apparent beliefs of some of the regular commentators on this blog--until now, I perceived most of the commentators to be more or less normal, what ever that is. But guess that I shouldn't be surprised because by definition, 50% of people have IQs below 100 and I think that 30 to 50% of people walking the street are mentally ill to some degree. But given the weirdness and ignorance of some of the comments, I think Jason would be justified to discontinue this blog perhaps forever. I could name names, but I won't.

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Joe Scales
7/24/2018 01:42:13 pm

"As I recall, Jason has always stated that he believes that the rise of fringe beliefs and the rise of the right are linked, and one purpose of this blog is to expose that link."

Wait a minute... the "rise of the right"? It's rising now because a unique minority of the whole can be found to share fringe beliefs? And that's sharing fringe beliefs with those on the left, middle, you name it. No. It's a smear. To take the minority, or a small sampling of any group to generalize the whole. Such as it would be unfair to say that since Democrats want convicted felons to vote, that would make it the party of thieves, rapists and murderers. It's all just politics.

Jason often cites Michael Barkun for right wing/fringe connections, but it's important to note what Professor Barkun actually admitted in this regard:

"My research has focused on the extreme right, so I have not looked at the extreme left, though I know they exist, and they share the same characteristics. Conspiracism is not exclusively a right-wing phenomenon. A main characteristic is a deep suspicion of authority—religious, political, academic, etc. As a result, it doesn’t matter whether the political authority is Democratic or Republican. Conspiracy theorists are as suspicious of Republican presidents as they are of Democrats. For example, a tremendous amount of conspiracy developed around the figure of George H.W. Bush. So there is a non-partisan aspect to conspiracism. Their tendency is not to believe any authority."

Jason's focus is on the right because he opposes their politics. But let's not pretend that's the complete picture.

Jason Colavito link
7/24/2018 02:00:02 pm

Also, Joe: The extreme left has no voice in government and does not make government policy. There are no cable channels catering to their fringe history beliefs. Marxist fake history is just as ridiculous and potentially dangerous and right-wing pseudohistory, if there were actually any Marxists in power. And there aren't. But there are a lot of right-wing politicians in high office who will talk about Joseph's granaries, creationism, ancient astronaut theories, and the like.

I can't control who is currently in government, nor can I control the extreme and extremely weird beliefs their supporters endorse. I give more space and time to those beliefs that are both current and popular.

Americanegro
7/24/2018 02:26:58 pm

The extreme left HAD a voice in government for 8 years. Sorry. What did it accomplish? The purchase of GM, selling uranium to Russia, an ongoing Elon Musk loan guarantee handjob, assassination of American citizens, 4 billion in paper money cash to Iran,,,

Mr. Scales mentioned felons not being able to vote. The idea that we have ex post facto punishments for people who've served their time is ridiculous and arguably unconstitutional. Felons should be able to vote and own firearms.

Joe Scales
7/24/2018 02:34:15 pm

"But there are a lot of right-wing politicians in high office who will talk about Joseph's granaries, creationism, ancient astronaut theories, and the like."

And when that happens, it's fair game. Go get 'em. But you don't think Ancient Aliens can attract those on the "far left"? It's somehow exclusively far right? Or that channels such as MSNBC don't play into far left conspiracy theories and are attempting to carve them into our historical record? You don't think Vice News or the Vice channel is far left. Heck, Vice had a show of guys getting high and commenting on Ancient Aliens episodes. What, they were far right???

You are being absolutely ridiculous and somewhat intellectually dishonest. And to believe that far left forces have no political power at this time is wondrously oblivious.

Jason Colavito link
7/24/2018 02:42:38 pm

I don't think, Joe, that leftists are absent from the "Ancient Aliens" audience. I've covered Action Bronson's stupid show, and Harry Reid's UFO hijinks. But do they really matter? With Republicans controlling all branches of government and most statehouses and governorships, surely their beliefs and delusions are more important than a rump minority whose most important trait is that rightists keep imagining them as an all-powerful legion. Only one side of the political debate is driving the conversation. And it's the one with literal Nazis openly running for office under its banner.

Machala
7/24/2018 04:02:53 pm

Orang, you said:
"Jason has always stated that he believes that the rise of fringe beliefs and the rise of the right are linked, and one purpose of this blog is to expose that link. Therefore, it would be impossible to eliminate politics from this blog, especially since America appears to be going down the toilet."

I wasn't aware that exposing that link was a part of the purpose for this blog. If so, than I withdraw my admonishment. You're right, American politics is oozing its way into every facet of American life.

For what it's worth, I concur with your swirling whirlpool image.

Joe Scales
7/24/2018 04:47:00 pm

" But do they really matter? "

Well, not to you Jason, that's obvious. Now consider the heavily populated New York and California, whose media controls much of what is broadcast through the entire nation. But no, you just see Republican majorities in Congress and a Republican in the White House, and of course, what.. a Nazi or two running for office claiming to be Republican. You don't think some rather crazed individuals who preach hate never ran as Democrats? Or aren't currently trying to shape the national conversation?

Deep down you can't stand it that the duly elected Republicans are in office. That's why you constantly stretch numerous topics to smear them. That's why you attract nasty political debates here. That's why it's becoming a sewer. Instead of trying to appear independent, why don't you actually try being independent.

Again... told ya so.

Jason Colavito link
7/24/2018 06:43:10 pm

Joe, you keep reaching for examples from the past. Today is today, and I can no more change the fact that the right is in charge than I can wish away ancient astronaut theories. You play the hand you are dealt. When times change, so too will the material I write about. If you want to see more critiques of the left, vote for more leftists.

Joe Scales
7/24/2018 10:45:43 pm

"Joe, you keep reaching for examples from the past."

Really? When I spoke above of those who are currently trying to shape the national conversation. Geeze man... what a cop-out. I was here when the left was in charge and I don't recall that seeming to set you off. No, you used to just debunk stuff without parroting the political talking points of your preferred party. Ah, the good old days...

Pacal
7/26/2018 11:59:10 pm

I greatly enjoyed this exchange for the great examples of utter stupidity. The talk about the "extreme left" and the "left" in general being in power / influence for 8 years. I assume the 8 years referred too are the years of Obama's Presidency are and thinking the "left" was in charge is beautifully stupid. Only, it appears, in the USA could such idiocy be uttered it seems and swallowed. In very much of the world Obama would be regarded has Right-Wing not Left Wing.

But then it is so easy to find foaming at the mouth hysteria about Obama the Marxist Dictator. Well whatever. Obama was and is basically a centrist in USA terms but it fitted a particular hysterical narrative to call him a Marxist / Socialist. But then so many people in the USA don't have a clue what an actual Socialist is. So there it is. Only in the USA would Bernie Saunders be thought of as a Socialist. It is very funny.

The paranoid delusion by so many in the USA that Marxist-Leninists have control over the USA and are subverting everything has been a standard trope of Right Wing Hysteria for over two generations in the USA. Thus we have had for the last almost 30 years foaming at the mouth utter hysteria over Political Correctness. All of which serves a very useful political purposes.

The bottom line is that the USA has overall been drifting to the Right since 1980 and part of the propaganda too help that along has been hysteria about the imagined overweening power of the "Left".

As an Anarchist I am amused by the hysteria in that frankly the Democrats and Republicans are basically two factions of political party that are united and one on a vast number of political and economic issues.

Scott Monahan link
7/24/2018 04:11:25 pm

Jason,

Your criticism of the New York Times’ tendencies to edit news (and lifestyle reviews on contemporary trends), is most peculiar, since your politics and theirs seem to align quite nicely for a resident of Albany. As a journalist since 1973, I agree reduction and whitewashing is commonplace by many news organizations in 2018 compared to when I crafted broadcast news in the 1970s and 1980s in mid-America. My superiors always fact-checked and enforced eagle-eyed discipline, inoculating us from bias. You apparently see yourself as a victim whose viewpoints didn’t see any ink, one of the most recent casualties of a powerful NYT, which has been on the warpath to disgrace conservatives since I can remember. Sucks to be victimized by the powerful, doesn’t it?

Others on this blog’s thread questioned your neutrality, but before I go further, I am not posting to defend or reject Giorgio Tsoukalos and his ilk. Ancient Alien theory lives or dies on its own populism and it has no endorsement from me. My concern is that archaeological authoritarians, including yourself as an unwavering defender, have damaged their own reputations in pivoting to subjective post-processualism and an unholy alliance co-opting control with Native Americans since the late 2000’s. Archaeological vitriol toward even the possibility of unconventional discoveries such as what was confirmed by underwater archaeology (30ºN 84ºW) validating the Solutrean hypothesis near Tallahassee in 2016 (May, “Science Advances”) attempts to enforce the myth of America’s exemption from worldwide exploration and trade via the oceans and rivers to no more less than a thousand years ago – notwithstanding Australia’s exploration by Asian navigators 60K years ago. That’s the problem, and as a servant of the infallibility of archaeology, you toss out paper-tigers such as “racism”, “white-supremacism” and “cultural inappropriateness” to defend an institutional dogma, anti-scientific because it side-steps the SCIENTIFIC IMPERATIVE to investigate that which is unknown. American archaeology has its head either up its ass or so deeply sunk into dirt strata it cannot deal with pre-Clovis exploration of America, despite recent, contrary finds and abundant evidence which I happen to have had a role in documenting.

Your efforts to discredit midwestern mound-builders from Europe by simply tagging advocates as fringe, including original surveyors and investigators such as the Smithsonian’s Ephraim Squier, has ZERO merit as you must grasp and, in fact, underscores your racist bias of exclusion (against European exploration and trade)-by-institutional-and co-conspiratorial decree. You have your baggage, too, my friend.

The corrupt practice of squelching real investigation in the name of cloaking unfounded and out-dated dogmatic principles has consequences. Keep advocating for protecting the public from understanding the complexities of our history, merely to advance the embedded dynasties of misguided and wrong archaeologists such as Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews, once one of your sources, subsequently discredited and delisted.

Reply
Doc Rock
7/24/2018 04:39:24 pm

Oh boy, someone claimed that American archaeology rejects pre-Clovis. As part of the drinking game we now all get to do a double shot.

I'll take Tullamore Dew.

Reply
Machala
7/24/2018 05:13:03 pm

Doc,
Make mine a Redbreast 12year old, cask strength - neat, if you please !

Doc Rock
7/24/2018 07:03:21 pm

Now gotta do another double shot after seeing the claim that material from the Page-Ladson site validates the Solutrean Hypothesis.

Scott Monahan link
7/24/2018 08:46:43 pm

archaeology is not a science, it is a hyper-sensitive humanity since post-processualism took root. Don't take my word for it, check out the links you'll find at

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/5/e1600375.full

http://www.sacredequinox.com/post-processual.html

Doc Rock
7/24/2018 09:07:45 pm

Doesn't matter if it is post-processual, processual, or good old fashioned culture history. None of them have found evidence demonstrating that Europeans built the mounds or supporting any number of fringe claims. Call it science or humanities but materials from page-ladson don't validate the solutrean hypothesis.

E.P. Grondine
7/25/2018 10:33:13 am

Doc, and whoever else-

If you think the Pre-Clovis "debate" was bad, consider the "debate" over comet impact and the extinction of 43 mega fauna globally.

Or the "debate"over Adena (Andaste) height.


An Anonymous Nerd
7/24/2018 07:46:55 pm

Oh my.

Let's stick to the basics.

1 - Mr. Colavito's critique of the Times in this instance has no obvious relationship with the fact that he likely agrees with their politics more than he agrees with that of, say, the Washington Times or Fox News. The Times goofed. Mr. Colavito pointed out that they goofed.

2 - "Archaeological authoritarians?" Not sure what you mean there unless you mean to refer to the fact that academics tend to be snippy with one another, but it's not a one-way street for the most part. Most of what has passed into the mainstream in Archaeology has some good evidence behind it. By contrast the Fringe has implications, insults, and on occasion an isolated artifact or two -- which, by themselves, tell us nothing, because context matters. (For example if I had a Roman sword in my house, and 10,000 years later someone finds it in the ruins of my house, one should not conclude it to be evidence of a Roman presence in North America.)

3 - Paper tigers....The stuff you cite, Mr. Colavito's had good reasons to bring up which he's expounded upon in many posts.

4 - "efforts to discredit midwestern mound-builders from Europe by simply tagging advocates as fringe" Incorrect. He and the Archaeologists and Historians whose work he relies upon have good evidence to back up the mound-builders being American Indians. There's way more than just the label "fringe."

I guess I'll leave it there as folks should get the idea by now.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Reply
Doc Rock
7/24/2018 08:31:27 pm

Professional archaeologists tend to hold themselves and others to very high standards. Anyone who has undergone any sort of peer review can attest to that. If archaeologists are rough on each other you can only imagine how they will react toward claims based on, at best, minimal empirical evidence and more often just plain old wishful thinking put forth by amateurs. Claims of archaeologists being authoritarian generally mean that archaeologists are unwilling to accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary proof. Since fringe folks are generally unwilling or unable to up their game so to speak they get upset when professionals won't lower the bar for them

Rackham
7/25/2018 02:06:44 pm

An Anonymous Nerd: don't forget how the fringe starts most of their books saying they aren't seriously, just musing... Shaky foundations isn't it! I recall reading a Robert Charroux in which he had to tell readers that students wrote to him that they started to challenge their teachers with his claims... His answer wasn't "great, we are fighting them" but rather "don't take what I say for a proven truth, you should really learn what your teachers say". The poor guy didn't have enough confidence in his theories and was scared to ruin others' education.

An Anonymous Nerd
7/25/2018 07:37:17 pm

Hello there Rackham.

I actually haven't seen that many Fringe books start that way. I'd love it if more of them did because then some folks might actually use them to get interested in things, then seek out the real answers.

Based upon the Fringe books I've looked at and Fringe figures whose speeches and television shows I've watched and the like....My impression is that they are all-too-confident and all-too-certain about things that can't possibly be accurate.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Pacal
7/30/2018 06:44:14 pm

First it is Pacal not Pascal. My father died yesterday so I thank you for the laughs. Your delusional pseudoscientific rant was absolutely hilarious. Thank you for the ad hominems, the listing of discredited evidence, the citation nut jobs and of course the mega dose of tinfoil hat thinking.

Again thank you for the laughs!!

Pacal
7/30/2018 08:10:18 pm

Oops put this in the wrong spot it belongs after Scott's ravings.

Scott Monahan link
7/30/2018 10:01:11 pm

Pacal,

I apologize for misspelling your handle and I send my condolences on the death of your father. I lost mine in September 2013 at 88.

Why would you characterize my lengthy reply below as ravings when I answered, likely in more detail and specificity than you might prefer, these 4 main points you posed for me to respond to:

“...where is the old world stuff in the Americas indicating widespread exploration and trade with and from the Old World...”

“sailing from Indonesia to Australia isn't like sailing the Atlantic or Pacific to America”

“please provide the evidence for your mind reading assertion that Jason is trying to prevent the public from understanding the past”

“ ‘unholy alliance’ with Native Americans is another fantasy I guess your referring to ‘policies regarding the return of native remains’ “

Don't whine when someone engages you at your request. This is not raving. These are reasons why I believe what I believe. Respect or go your merry way. Not RAVINGS!

Pacal
7/30/2018 11:18:18 pm

Thank you for your condolences.

However the crap in your response is crap i've heard many many times. It is old hat and utterly tiresome. It is throughly conventional alternative dogma. To me it is merely typical loony toons ravings worthy of only a good laugh. I have no respect for your nonsense. If that bothers you, tough!

So thanks again for the laughs at this tough time.

Scott Monahan
7/31/2018 05:42:04 am

Pacal,

Superficial dismissiveness is what archaeology does when it claims incontrovertibility. My response to your lengthy challenge included multiple independent references to support my claims. TIME magazine, Archaeology Magazine, The Atlantic, SciencesAdvances and others. Please do yourself the favor, for your own sense of credibility, to response with specifics should you wish to be taken seriously in the dialogue. Generalities and wide ignorance does not favor the outcome you want: blind obedience to what you are told by archaeological authoritarians.

Regards.

Pacal
7/27/2018 01:22:58 am

A wonderful collection of straw men and ad hominems. First you fantasize about "archaeological authoritarians" and it is a lovely fantasy. But of course it has the effect of casting people like yourself in the role of the Sons of light against the Sons of Darkness. Of course no evidence is given to for this fantasy. it is of course mere polemic.

The stuff about a "unholy alliance" with Native Americans is another fantasy I guess your referring to policies regarding the return of native remains etc., to Indian tribes. Just how this is "unholy" is a bit beyond me. But then all sorts of alternative believers in fantasy Archeology of North America believe that Native Americans in cahoots with evil establishment Archeologists is supressing the "truth", specifically to give one example the Solutrean hypothesis.

Sadly the Solutrean hypothesis, (Which goes back to the late 1940s and is old hat), seems to be false. DNA evidence from contemporary Native Americans, too say nothing of DNA on the "Clovis Child" along with the 5000 year gap between the end of the Solutrean culture in Europe and the appearance of Clovis in America don't help the theory. it is probably wrong.

As for this: '...the myth of America’s exemption from worldwide exploration and trade via the oceans and rivers to no more less than a thousand years ago." You are aware that people continued to come over the Bering Strait, (For example the Na-Dene and later the Inuit.). And of course it is likely that America very likely had intermittent contact with Asia, Europe and Africa before the Vikings came. The problem is there is virtually no evidence of widespread exploration and trade by people of the Old World in the New World prior to the Vikings. And it is interesting that Viking contact although it was small scale and intermittent left indisputable traces in North America. (See L'Anse Aux Meadows, and sites in the Canadian Arctic.) Yet where is the old world stuff in the Americas indicating widespread exploration and trade with and from the Old World, in fact aside from the Vikings there appears to be close to zero such stuff. So guess what the Americas do seem in fact to have been largely isolated from the Old World.

You are aware that the original settlement of Australia by the ancestors of the Australian Aborigines occurred c. 60,000 years ago and that sailing from Indonesia to Australia isn't like sailing the Atlantic or Pacific to America. And its been accepted that Indonesian, Indian and Chinese Merchants were aware of Australia for quite sometime and yet their influence on the Australian Aborigines seems to have been minimal.

This bit: "That’s the problem, and as a servant of the infallibility of archaeology, you toss out paper-tigers such as “racism”, “white-supremacism” and “cultural inappropriateness” to defend an institutional dogma, anti-scientific because it side-steps the SCIENTIFIC IMPERATIVE to investigate that which is unknown."

Thanks for the Agit-Prop., and ad hominem. Of course your fantasy about "infallibility" is pure straw man crap, and please provide the evidence that Jason etc., believe this. As for "Paper Tigers" it is exceptionally easy to show that the early 19th century myth about the mound builders was built to a very large extent upon the racist notion that the ancestors of the Native Americans could not possibly have built them because they were too stupid to do so. In fact it was "institutional dogma" until the late 19th century that the mounds were built by anyone except Native Americans. That changed when the evidence was examined. Rather interestingly many Americans lost interest in the mounds when it was determined that Native Americans had built them.

And it is a simple fact that the Mound Builder myth, and the Solutrean hypothesis along with extreme diffusionism have been and are used by some groups to advance what can only be described has racism. The fact that saying so puts your knickers in a knot doesn't make it less true.

Isn't amazing how North American Archeology was able to shed the "institutional dogma" and racism of the mound builder myth so much for never challenging dogma.

Has for this: "American archaeology has its head either up its ass or so deeply sunk into dirt strata it cannot deal with pre-Clovis exploration of America, despite recent, contrary finds and abundant evidence which I happen to have had a role in documenting."

Simply hilarious. You so obviously have a skewed view of American Archeology. When I took Anthropology in the late 1970s it was a accepted position that pre-Clovis was possible even very possible. The great majority of Archeologists who speciality is American pre-history now accept pre-Clovis and have for quite sometime. What you are repeating is "Alternative" dogma which I hear all the time from Alternative Dogmatists. This is simply risible.

You also say: "Your efforts to discredit midwestern mound-builders from Eur

Reply
Pacal
7/27/2018 01:40:13 am

Continued...

"Your efforts to discredit midwestern mound-builders from Europe by simply tagging advocates as fringe, including original surveyors and investigators such as the Smithsonian’s Ephraim Squier, has ZERO merit as you must grasp and, in fact, underscores your racist bias of exclusion (against European exploration and trade)-by-institutional-and co-conspiratorial decree. You have your baggage, too, my friend."

The old Tu quoque fallacy. So in the face of the clear unequivocal evidence that one of the main factors giving rise to the Mound Builder myth in the 19th century was racism, you try to divert attention. The bottom line is that aside from some forgeries and other very dubious material there is no evidence that the Mound Builders were Europeans and plenty of evidence they were Native Americans. And of course you provide ZERO evidence that Jason et al are racist against Europeans. The simple fact is that their is no credible evidence of not just extensive trade and exploration by Europeans before the Vikings but just about ZERO evidence at all.


You then fantasize about institutional bias and conspiracy nonsense.

You say: "The corrupt practice of squelching real investigation in the name of cloaking unfounded and out-dated dogmatic principles has consequences. Keep advocating for protecting the public from understanding the complexities of our history, merely to advance the embedded dynasties of misguided and wrong archaeologists such as Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews, once one of your sources, subsequently discredited and delisted."

Isn't it amazing that in the 19th century the out of dogmatic notion that the mounds were not built by Native Americans gave way to the notion that they had. Of course good old fashioned dogmatism and racism delayed the acceptance of this notion until the late 19th century. Yep they rejected a out of date concept and idea.

Thank you for the Agit Prop., of Archeologists conspiring it seems to protect people from the truth. Of course it is "Alternative" thinkers about the past who by promoting frauds, woo and crap who are doing a good job of hiding the truth from the public. And please provide the evidence for your mind reading assertion that Jason is trying to prevent the public from understanding the past. But of course that is one of your ad hominems.

Thank you for an excellent example of Alernativitis

Scott Monahan link
7/29/2018 04:35:59 pm

For a comprehensive defense my claims, Pascal,
I urge you to consult details and external references at
sacredequinox.com/library.html and
archaeoastronomy.com/politics.html

Pascal wonders, “...where is the old world stuff in the Americas indicating widespread exploration and trade with and from the Old World...”

Some claims are from New England: Gungywamp, America’s Stonehenge, the Newport Tower, each attacked archaeologically for cultural inappropriateness. My claims focus on apparent seafarers, Celtic explorers from western Europe some 1500 years ago who sailed to the mouth of the Mississippi, then travelled upriver to America’s heartland via the Arkansas westward and its tributaries, the Purgatoire and Cimarron. This wave of exploration may have followed Phoenecian explorers, worshippers of Mithras before Christ, and even Arab sailors/traders millennia earlier whose unique Dhofari alphabet has been validated by Ali Ahmed Ali Ash-Shari from Salalah, Dhofar, Oman, an ancient seaport on the southern end of the Arabian peninsula. In a September 23, 2005 TV interview in Denver he told me: “I was astonished. It was amazing...that you find these inscriptions exactly the same as ours, the same characters, the way that they have written it and the same way that our people and the people here have done it.” In his PDF “A New World Monument to Mithras” researcher Phil Leonard constructs a theory that Cave 2 in Oklahoma’s Anubis Caves has key engraved icons comprising the 7 grades of Mithraism: Mithras (Sun God) in a robe standing on a Cube holding a phallus (symbolic of fatherhood) at the point of the equinox between rising and setting sun, his assistants, Perses and Heliodromus, and the 4 servant grades, Corax the Raven, Nymphus the Bride, Miles the Soldier and Leo the Lion. Scott Wolter’s America Unearthed season 1 devoted the last half of episode 5 to the equinox sunset alignments in that cave, introduced in my 1985 KRMA, Denver PBS documentary “History on the Rocks,” updated in 2017 as “Sacred EquinoX” (HD 68 minutes). Cave 3 next door has a lengthy Ogham inscription and a late afternoon equinox alignment piercing a small rectangles mid-way in an Ogam inscription translated by Barry Fell to read “Sun 6 months north, remaining months south” inscribed by Celtic visitors centuries later. While visiting it in 1989, U of Calgary Professor Emeritus of Archaeology David H. Kelley, who cracked the Maya alphabet, declared, “I think there are several reasonably clear Oghams, translatable as Celtic in this cave...” In 1986 while visiting the same cave at equinox, Professor of Celtic Robert Meyer at Catholic University of America told me on camera, “It is certainly true Ogham.” Just north of the state line with Colorado is the Crack Cave in the Comanche National Grasslands, discovered in 1984 to have an Ogham inscription upon a rock knob 35 feet deep inside reading, “Strikes here on the day of Bel”. This cave sports twin 2-5-3 vertically grouped strokes representing the Celtic word for sun “GRiaN”. The translations were understood before the sunrise equinox alignment was first observed with a KRMA cameraman there to capture the event. Compared to off-target glancing illuminations the days before and following the equinox, the inscription was struck with precision.

Exactly 2 year later, USGS archaeoastronomy expert Dr. Robert Mark observed the same and told me on camera, “I think that a reasonable case has been made that there’s something of interest here that deserves further study; and I would hope that it gets that sort of study.”

Forest Service archaeologist for the Grasslands, Michelle Stevens quoted in the Colorado Springs Gazette (9/17/2008), “For archaeologists, the question is settled. There’s not support for the idea of ogham writing.” CU Boulder anthropology professor Doug Bamforth was quoted in the campus daily paper in a pre-emptive strike ahead of the CU student cultural board multi-media lecture inviting Phil Leonard and me to make the case: “There are no professional archaeologists who would take this claim seriously.” It’s the same arrogant mindset Dr. Jodi Magnuss, archaeologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill exhibited in an interview with the Washington Post on February 28, 2007 when she declared with respect to the “Lost Tomb of Jesus” documentary on the Discovery Channel, “I haven’t even seen the film. They’re presenting it or setting it up as though we have a discovery and you can react and it’s all legitimate and valid which it’s not.”

In 34 years since Crack Cave’s inscription was deciphered then confirmed by actual observation, one might expect curious archaeologists would have excavated its dirt floor for artifacts. Nope! Po

Scott Monahan link
7/29/2018 04:42:45 pm

For a comprehensive defense my claims, Pascal,
I urge you to consult details and external references at
sacredequinox.com/library.html and
archaeoastronomy.com/politics.html

Pascal wonders, “...where is the old world stuff in the Americas indicating widespread exploration and trade with and from the Old World...”

Some claims are from New England: Gungywamp, America’s Stonehenge, the Newport Tower, each attacked archaeologically for cultural inappropriateness. My claims focus on apparent seafarers, Celtic explorers from western Europe some 1500 years ago who sailed to the mouth of the Mississippi, then travelled upriver to America’s heartland via the Arkansas westward and its tributaries, the Purgatoire and Cimarron. This wave of exploration may have followed Phoenecian explorers, worshippers of Mithras before Christ, and even Arab sailors/traders millennia earlier whose unique Dhofari alphabet has been validated by Ali Ahmed Ali Ash-Shari from Salalah, Dhofar, Oman, an ancient seaport on the southern end of the Arabian peninsula. In a September 23, 2005 TV interview in Denver he told me: “I was astonished. It was amazing...that you find these inscriptions exactly the same as ours, the same characters, the way that they have written it and the same way that our people and the people here have done it.” In his PDF “A New World Monument to Mithras” researcher Phil Leonard constructs a theory that Cave 2 in Oklahoma’s Anubis Caves has key engraved icons comprising the 7 grades of Mithraism: Mithras (Sun God) in a robe standing on a Cube holding a phallus (symbolic of fatherhood) at the point of the equinox between rising and setting sun, his assistants, Perses and Heliodromus, and the 4 servant grades, Corax the Raven, Nymphus the Bride, Miles the Soldier and Leo the Lion. Scott Wolter’s America Unearthed season 1 devoted the last half of episode 5 to the equinox sunset alignments in that cave, introduced in my 1985 KRMA, Denver PBS documentary “History on the Rocks,” updated in 2017 as “Sacred EquinoX” (HD 68 minutes). Cave 3 next door has a lengthy Ogham inscription and a late afternoon equinox alignment piercing a small rectangles mid-way in an Ogam inscription translated by Barry Fell to read “Sun 6 months north, remaining months south” inscribed by Celtic visitors centuries later. While visiting it in 1989, U of Calgary Professor Emeritus of Archaeology David H. Kelley, who cracked the Maya alphabet, declared, “I think there are several reasonably clear Oghams, translatable as Celtic in this cave...” In 1986 while visiting the same cave at equinox, Professor of Celtic Robert Meyer at Catholic University of America told me on camera, “It is certainly true Ogham.” Just north of the state line with Colorado is the Crack Cave in the Comanche National Grasslands, discovered in 1984 to have an Ogham inscription upon a rock knob 35 feet deep inside reading, “Strikes here on the day of Bel”. This cave sports twin 2-5-3 vertically grouped strokes representing the Celtic word for sun “GRiaN”. The translations were understood before the sunrise equinox alignment was first observed with a KRMA cameraman there to capture the event. Compared to off-target glancing illuminations the days before and following the equinox, the inscription was struck with precision.

Exactly 2 year later, USGS archaeoastronomy expert Dr. Robert Mark observed the same and told me on camera, “I think that a reasonable case has been made that there’s something of interest here that deserves further study; and I would hope that it gets that sort of study.”

Forest Service archaeologist for the Grasslands, Michelle Stevens quoted in the Colorado Springs Gazette (9/17/2008), “For archaeologists, the question is settled. There’s not support for the idea of ogham writing.” CU Boulder anthropology professor Doug Bamforth was quoted in the campus daily paper in a pre-emptive strike ahead of the CU student cultural board multi-media lecture inviting Phil Leonard and me to make the case: “There are no professional archaeologists who would take this claim seriously.” It’s the same arrogant mindset Dr. Jodi Magnuss, archaeologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill exhibited in an interview with the Washington Post on February 28, 2007 when she declared with respect to the “Lost Tomb of Jesus” documentary on the Discovery Channel, “I haven’t even seen the film. They’re presenting it or setting it up as though we have a discovery and you can react and it’s all legitimate and valid which it’s not.”

In 34 years since Crack Cave’s inscription was deciphered then confirmed by actual observation, one might expect curious archaeologists would have excavated its dirt floor for artifacts. Nope! Po

Scott Monahan link
7/29/2018 04:47:22 pm

CONTINUED

In 34 years since Crack Cave’s inscription was deciphered then confirmed by actual observation, one might expect curious archaeologists would have excavated its dirt floor for artifacts. Nope! Post-processualists are allergic to considering anything they disbelieve. Has archaeology summoned any linguists who’d recognize Celtic Ogham or ancient Arabic? It’s simply not wise if these queries topple archaeological authoritarians’ ivory tower.

My video library includes Celtic quarter (Imbolc, Beltaine, Lughnasad and Samhain) alignments in Colorado (at sunrise), Oklahoma (at solar noon) and northern Kansas (at sunset).

Readers are encouraged to consult “Pre-Clovis occupation 14,550 years ago at the Page-Ladson site, Florida, and the peopling of the Americas”. ScienceAdvances (May 2016) does a thorough job in raising awareness of a pre-Clovis presence in North America by Europeans, connecting into the Smithsonian’s archaeology curator’s Solutrean Hypothesis, irregardless of authoritarian, dogmatic, mainstream archaeology.

Pascal says: “sailing from Indonesia to Australia isn't like sailing the Atlantic or Pacific to America”. Pascal also seems to give leeway for isolated and limited contact via diffusionism, versus what he terms “extreme diffusionism” where exploration happens again and again, though not necessarily with conquest and exploitation of Gold in mind, as was begun by Columbus.

Actually, it may have been much more intuitive and less risky, as European Celts could have hopped from the British Isles, to Iceland, Greenland and Newfoundland making landfall on the North American continent - see the February 19, 2006 articles “Ancient People Followed the ‘Kelp Highway’ to America” and “First Americans May Have Been European”

Pascal asks, “please provide the evidence for your mind reading assertion that Jason is trying to prevent the public from understanding the past”

Mr. Colavito may or may not be open to changing his mind, however TIME magazine, in my opinion prematurely, reported on March 13, 2006, “...in a field so recently liberated from a dogma that has kept it in an intellectual straightjacket since Franklin Roosevelt was President, all sorts of ideas are suddenly on the table” accompanying the cover story caption ‘The Untold Saga of Early Man in America’ with an artist’s conception of Kennewick Man’s facial features.
Also see The Atlantic Monthly’s cover story for January 2000, “The Diffusionists Have Landed”. Curiously, a search of the Atlantic online’s repository delivers nothing but the title and author, but via its archaic, back-channel link

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/00jan/001stengel3.htm

One may read Part 3 of Mark K. Stengel’s article ¶10-13 referring to the late Vine Deloria, Jr., Native American Activist, member of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe of North Dakota, former executive director of the National Congress of American Indians and CU Boulder professor of history.

“In a 1992 paper in the academic journal American Antiquity, Deloria chastised the archaeological and anthropological establishment for embracing the monoculture implications of the Bering Strait hypothesis. ‘This migration from Siberia,’ he wrote, ‘is regarded as doctrine, but basically it is a fictional doctrine that places American Indians outside the realm of planetary human experiences.’

“Deloria bridles a what he sees as the reverse racism implicit in the establishment’s dismissal of all things diffusionist.

‘There’s no effort to ask the tribes what they remember of things that happened. ...numerous tribes do say that strange people doing this or that came through our land, visited us, and so on. Or they remember that we came across the Atlantic as refugees from some struggle, then came down the St. Lawrence River, and so forth. There’s great reluctance among archaeologists and anthropologists to break centuries-old doctrine and to take a look at something new.’ “

Scott Monahan link
7/29/2018 04:51:36 pm

CONCLUSION (part 3) - sorry about the duplicate initial post, Jason!

Pascal contends: “ ‘unholy alliance’ with Native Americans is another fantasy I guess your referring to ‘policies regarding the return of native remains’ “

Correct! See https://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/native/debate.html

In Archaeology Magazine’s “Debating NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act)’s Effects” published February 26, 1999, the late emeritus professor of anthropology at the University of California, LA, Clement W. Meighan asserted in “Burying American Archaeology”, “Indian activists were paid by the state to monitor the excavation and to censor ‘objectionable’ photographs or data appearing in the final report. The activists also insisted that, following an alleged ancient custom, human remains be covered with red flannel until reburial and that no remains, including artifacts, be touched my menstruating women.
“Reburying bones and artifacts is the equivalent of the historian burning documents after he has studied them. Thus, repatriation is not merely an inconvenience but makes it impossible for scientists to carry out a genuinely scientific study of American Indian prehistory. Furthermore, it negates scientific work that has already been done, since the evidence on which that work was based is now to be buried.”

Looking forward, Pascal, to your next delusional rant about the purity of purpose advanced by archaeological authoritarians, who’ve crossed over into a new pseudoscience worship of post-processualism, while retaining PhD authority to quash that which is harmful to its tarnished reputation premised on subjective decree and dismissal.

Americanegro
7/29/2018 07:25:16 pm

Where are you institutionalized Scott?

Scott Monahan
7/29/2018 10:10:50 pm

AmericaNegro,

I believe your earlier attacks against my credibility was based on suspect typos. Did you find any, recently?

Or can you simply not remain on topic when the evidence against your dismissiveness mounts?

Just askin'

Doc Rock
7/29/2018 10:21:54 pm

Post-processual archaeology did not really emerge until the 1980s and is only one school of thought (and not a homogenous one at that) in contemporary archaeology. There are plenty of folks who are in sharp disagreement with post-processualists. Probably far, far many more than those identified as such are out and about moving dirt eve. They are thumbs down on most fringe stuff too. Even if post-processualists were running the show and were as bad as you claim, there is still a massive amount of earlier work in archaeology that refutes fringe theories.

Most fringe claims are crap whether post-processualism exists or not. Doesn't matter if it would be James Ford, Lewis Binford, Bob Dunnell, or Ian Hodder digging a mound site in the Midwest. They would all reach the same conclusion that it wasn't built by Europeans.

Scott Monahan link
7/29/2018 10:44:04 pm

Doc,

Of course, exceptions do exist. My assorted examples of several specific archaeologists above, however, validates the assertion I made early of 'archaeological authoritarians'.

For further reading about the intricacies of post-processualism which birthed in Europe in the 1980s, and external hypertext links verifying the excerpts I cite, click on the website arrow to this comment or go to sacredequinox.com/post-processual.html

Doc Rock
7/29/2018 10:59:13 pm

More accurate to say that post-processualism is the exception not the rule given its brief and limited existence and the fact that post-processualists aren't in any position to dictate what most archaeologists do, or physical anthropologists, or linguists, etc.

I don't have time to get caught up in endless rounds of the gish gallop in terms of all the material you brought up. I will simply repeat that post-processual archaeology or not, there is no evidence that Europeans built the mounds and the Page-Ladson site does not validate the Solutrean Hypothesis. Those who believe so need to carefully (re)read published research on the work there.

I don't think you realize it, but the insistence on using post-processualism as a boogey man in this regard just plays into the classic profile of fringe theorists. But you seem to have fun with it, so bless your heart.....



Americanegro
8/2/2018 02:08:57 am

"I believe your earlier attacks against my credibility was based on suspect typos. Did you find any, recently?

Or can you simply not remain on topic when the evidence against your dismissiveness mounts?

Just askin'"

Just saying you sound like an idiot and a crazy person who probably is institutionalized. Standard stuff.

Americanegro
7/24/2018 04:32:45 pm

So sorry your preferred people aren't in power. It happens. I long for the day when an American politician has the balls to say "I don't believe in this God nonsense." Johnson, on the left, ginned up the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident and dug us into the Vietnam war. Carter in retrospect I view as the 2nd Caretaker President, like Ford.

Clinton, a leftist, raped, bombed an aspirin factory, killed a wedding party, attacked the Chinese embassy in Belgrade with a rocket, and burned 80 people to death in Texas.

Let's sit with that for a moment, shall we? Burned 80 people to death. Left.

Reply
Joe Scales
7/24/2018 11:03:03 pm

" I long for the day when an American politician has the balls to say "I don't believe in this God nonsense." "

I had high hopes for Bernie in this regard, but ultimately he sold out as well.

Reply
E.P. Grondine
7/25/2018 10:18:23 am

Hold it right there, asshole -

That aspirin factory was owned by bin Laden, and the President was concerned about chemical weapons.
That wedding party was also bin Laden connected, if I remember correctly.
That Chinese Embassy was in the former Yugoslavia, and was being used by one of the parties in the war there, a party which was responsible for war crimes.
David Koresh was a cult leader who engaged in child sex. The initial attempt to take him resulted in the death of four FBI agents. There was a long period trying to arrest him peacefully.
In this case it was not Clinton, but Janet Reno who acted.

Every President acts on the information made available to him
by the CIA, DIA, NSA, FBI, and others. His decisions are executed by those whose job it is to carry them out.

Reply
Americanegro
7/25/2018 04:16:20 pm

Jason, I'm confused by all this ASSHOLE talk. Just what are the rules?

Apparently the rules are:

Bomb aspirin factories
Murder wedding parties
Attack foreign embassies
Burn victims of child sex abuse alive (that'll teach 'em!)
Burn victims of child sex abuse alive (that'll teach 'em!)
Burn victims of child sex abuse alive (that'll teach 'em!)
Also, if you're an FBI sniper and see, or more accurately don't see Vicki Weaver because she's standing behind a door holding her baby, murder her. Lookin' at you, Lon Horiuchi.

Once again, I'm the ASSHOLE because I read the newspaper.

The lack of civility here and advocacy of burning victims of child sex abuse alive (that'll teach 'em!) is quite something Jason.

Americanegro
7/24/2018 04:52:54 pm

"since the late 2000’s. Archaeological vitriol toward even the possibility of unconventional discoveries such as what was confirmed by underwater archaeology (30ºN 84ºW) validating the Solutrean hypothesis near Tallahassee in 2016 (May, “Science Advances”) attempts to enforce the myth of America’s exemption from worldwide exploration and trade via the oceans and rivers to no more less than a thousand years ago"

You are an idiot. We are still in the early 2000s, haven't quite gotten to the late 2000s yet. If you're gonna pontificate about archaeology...

"to no more less than a thousand years ago" What the heck does that mean?

Reply
Scott Monahan link
7/24/2018 04:57:36 pm

early 2000's = decade from 2000-2009

technical foul

#2 issue: typo, have you every made one, American Negro?

"to no more than a thousand years ago"

Do you have any substantive disputes. So far, pretty minor league stuff....

Reply
Americanegro
7/24/2018 05:59:48 pm

You said "late 2000s". You don't get to change it. And as much as it pains me to say thiis (there's your typo!) Captain Drinkypoo has already handed you your head. You are an idiot. And Americanegro is ONE word.

Reply
Scott Monahan link
7/24/2018 06:06:03 pm

The date is July 24, 2018. I have no prescience to know what's coming tomorrow or in another millennium. Nor do you! My intention was to isolate the first decade. If you wish to confirm yourself as a total nincompoop, be my guest. Nobody knows the future and I certainly wasn't pretending to be an exception.

Shame on you.

Reply
Scott Monahan link
7/24/2018 06:44:57 pm

American NEGRO

Actually, the contextual quote is "...since the late 2000's" which restricts what normal folks would thinks is January 1, 2000 UNTIL NOW, which happens to be July 24, 2018.

Not December 31, 2099

Awaiting your profound acknowledgement and apology for completely posing your little stalking horse argument, American NEGRO


Reply
Americanegro
7/24/2018 08:26:24 pm

Still not the late 2000s. I'm amazed that Jason tolerates your racism, but it's his site.

Shane Sullivan
7/24/2018 09:38:51 pm

Scott, I don't think that's what most people mean when they say "late 2000's". I think most people would mean the latter half of the first decade of the century, even though that's incorrect usage; it more properly means 2050-2099.

Mule Skinner
7/25/2018 06:26:55 pm

Monahan's typos are unfortunate and we have all made them even in formal publications. They so often give the opposing side in a discussion an opportunity to claim they are proof you must must have struggled through elementary school. All that doesn't justify throwing the baby out with the bath water. Monahan's reference to authoritarian archaeologists is a legitimate one. During 40 years of observing and participating in various debates I have witnessed all too often what people do in many professions, the pontificate because they occupy the most "Prestigious" chair of anyone in the room. Sometimes they even make up "facts" our of whole cloth. I have even seen written rejections of an opposing argument before the argument was made.

In archaeology as in all walks of life there are people so full of themselves they can't accept that someone else may have a good idea. All of the name calling and locker room language is not constructive. The lot of you should have a good look in the mirror and then begin a fresh assessment of the facts instead of dismissing them.

Reply
Doc Rock
7/25/2018 07:42:12 pm

Archaeology is not represented by a handful of senior professors sitting in a smoke filled back room decided what will or will not be accepted. There are thousands of archaeologists representing a wide range of theoretical viewpoints. There are academic archaeologists, contract archaeologists, archaeologists employed by the federal government, archaeologists employed by the state government, archaeologists employed by Indian tribes, and archaeologists employed by private foundations.

Reply
Doc Rock
7/25/2018 07:51:19 pm

Yes, some archaeologists, like any other discipline, can be so entrenched in a position that they can be very resistant to new perspectives. But that's quite a bit different from refusing to embrace the idea of Europeans building Indian mounds or other such stuff that has no decent evidence.


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