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They're Back! "White" Giants of North America Get Recycled Again from Nineteenth Century Texts

2/8/2016

46 Comments

 
The copy and paste problem in fringe history has been with us mostly since the inception of low-quality popular history. Nineteenth century texts were rife with verbatim copying, often uncredited. People like Harold T. Wilkins and David Childress raised copying to an art form, but the internet has turned it into an industry. The Ancient Code website exists almost entirely to rewrite (poorly) other people’s articles, which recently included a wholesale rewrite of an Ancient Origins article on giant bones in Romania, itself an uncredited copy of still earlier Romanian articles, going back to a hoax. Granted, this isn’t much different from the Huffington Post’s business model of rewriting other news organizations’ content to build traffic, but it’s depressing to see how little original content the supposed warriors for truth actually produce.
Today’s case in point is a depressingly racist piece on giants that appeared on the Seven Tales website run by Helena Matias. This Matias is not, so far as I can tell, the scientist of the same name who works at the New University of Lisbon.
 
Matias begins her piece by copying from Donald N. Yates’s 2012 book on the Old World Roots of the Cherokee, which I am embarrassed to say was published by McFarland, the same company that produced most of my books. Yates, who holds a degree in Classics, is the owner of DNA Consultants, the company that uses alleged DNA evidence to “prove” that New World peoples are descendants of various Old World peoples, notably Greeks and Hebrews. (“Do not believe your government history books!” he proclaims on his website.) He also sells DNA “fingerprinting” kits to track a person’s ethnic origin for just $279. (Jewish and Native American ancestry requires an additional fee of $18 and $19 respectively.) Anyway, I’m getting a bit off topic…
 
Yates feels that the Cherokee are Greeks because he thinks that the name of the Cherokee warrior class is the same as the Greek term etheloikeoi, a word meaning “willing colonizers.” So far as I know the word appears only in Yates’s work, apparently back-formed from the name Eshelokee, which appears in the Cherokee Vision of Elohi, a migration myth telling of the Cherokee’s escape from a flooded land. (It’s often used as evidence for Atlantis or for Jewish contact by fringe folk on account of the flooded land and the similarity of the word Elohi, or earth, and Elohim, the Jewish plural for “gods,” respectively.)
 
Matias quotes Yates quoting the Christian missionary Horatio Bardwell Cushman that the first inhabitants of the United States were a “race of white giants.” Matias then follows Yates in following Cushman in declaring that the white giants were the same as a the Atlans, the imaginary Atlantean giants invented by the scientist Constantine Rafineseque, who had given himself over to outright fraud in an attempt to steal back glory (and money) from Caleb Atwater, his rival, who had gained fame and fortune by proposing a Vedic Indian origin for the Ohio mounds. Cushman’s 700-page History of the Choctaw etc. (1899) is generally held to be an unreliable source text, but it preserves some myths and legends not found elsewhere.
 
This is a bit ironic since Cushman was, for all his faults, an advocate of Native American rights and yet ends up entered in evidence for Native Americans being an Old World people!
 
Here’s the interesting thing: Yates added “white” to Cushman’s account, which did not use the phrase “race of white giants,” but did assert that large bones proved the account to be based in fact:
Also of the tradition of the Choctaws which told of a race of giants that once inhabited the now State of Tennessee, and with whom their ancestors fought when they arrived in Mississippi in their migration from the west, doubtless Old Mexico. Their tradition states the Nahullo (race of giants) was of wonderful stature; but, as their tradition of the mastodon, so this was also considered to be but a foolish fable, the creature of a wild imagination, when lo! their exhumed bones again prove the truth of the Choctaws tradition. In the fall of 1880, Mr. William Beverly, an old gentleman 84 years of age living near Piano, Collin County, Texas, and who was born in west Tennessee and there lived to manhood, stated to me that near his father’s house on a small creek were twenty-one mounds in consecutive order forming a crescent, each distant from the other about fifty feet and each with a base of seventy-five or eighty feet in diameter, and rising to an average height of forty feet; that he, when a boy twelve years of age, was present with his father, when an excavation was made in one of the mounds in which human bones of enormous size were found, the femoral bones being five inches longer than the ordinary length, and the jaw bones were so large as to slip over the face of a man with ease. This statement was confirmed by Rev. Mr. Rudolph of McKinney, Texas, and several others, all men of undoubted veracity, which places the truth of the former existence of the mounds, their excavations and results, as well as the Choctaw tradition, beyond all doubt and even controversy.
Yates got the adjective from a later passage in the book not written by Cushman but taken from a letter sent to Cushman in 1878 by Henry Sale Halbert, a former Confederate soldier and later expert on the Choctaw, who attempted to “prove” ethnograpically that Native Americans had occupied America only from about 1300 CE and therefore were illegitimate claimants to the land:
The word Nahoolo is a corruption of the Choctaw word Nahullo and is now applied to the entire White Race, but anciently it referred to a giant race with whom they came in contact when they first crossed the Mississippi river. These giants, says their tradition, as related to the missionaries occupied the northern part of the now States of Mississippi and Alabama and the western part of Tennessee. The true signification of the word Nahullo is a superhuman or supernatural being, and the true words for white man are Hattak-tohbi. The Nahullo were of white complexion, according to Choctaw tradition, and were still an existing people at the time of the advent of the Choctaws to Mississippi; that they were a hunting people and also cannibals, who killed and ate the Indians whenever they could capture them, consequently the Nahullo were held in great dread by the Indians and were killed by them whenever an opportunity was presented; by what means they finally became extinct, tradition is silent.
Halbert declared that the Mound Builders were a separate white race, “perhaps almost, if not quite, as fair as we,” who died out due to disease, their last remnants being the “white” Mandan people. Only when the great white race had died, he said, could Asiatics move into America.
 
Cushman himself was uncomfortable with this conclusion, but made the best of it since it represented what he assumed to be scientific conclusions from an expert. He suggested that Allegewi (a legendary tribe of bloodthirsty giants appearing in several tribes’ myths) or even the Norse—even in 1899 acknowledged as the first Europeans to reach America—were the lost white race of giants. He supposed that the story got mixed up with one of human sacrifice, which degenerated into a tale of cannibalism.
 
Matias continues copying Yates verbatim. Yates goes on to quote a nineteenth century account by Nelson Lee of a Comanche legend of the same white giants, but which I think any reader will clearly see is nothing but the Biblical story of the Nephilim amalgamated to some now-lost native story. (That is, if it is even real at all: The book it is in is often considered to be a hoax.) Lee is paraphrasing Rolling Thunder:
Innumerable moons ago, a race of white men, ten feet high, and far more rich and powerful than any white people now living, here inhabited a large range of country, extending from the rising to the setting sun. Their fortifications crowned the summits of the mountains, protecting their populous cities situated in the intervening valleys. They excelled every other nation which was flourished, either before or since, in all manner of cunning handicraft — were brave and warlike — ruling over the land they had wrested from its ancient possessors with a high and haughty hand. Compared with them the palefaces of the present day were pygmies, in both art and arms. They drove the Indians from their homes, putting them to the sword, and occupying the valleys in which their fathers had dwelt before them since the world began. At length, in the height of their power and glory, when they remembered justice and mercy no more and became proud and lifted up, the Great Spirit descended from above, sweeping them with fire and deluge from the face of the earth. The mounds we had seen on the tablelands were the remnants of their fortresses, and the crumbling ruins that surrounded us all that remained of a mighty city.
If that isn’t clear enough, Rolling Thunder went on to tell Lee that the “giants” are the same as today’s white people, whom God will destroy for their overweening pride. While Lee and the modern writers seem to take Rolling Thunder for a primitive sage, it seems possible to me that he was offering a sophisticated cross-cultural metaphor that intentionally evoked Biblical stories from the missionaries to make a point, and I would be rather certain that the wealth and whiteness of the giants, regardless of their Biblical connection, were a pointed detail added to make the comparison clear—note that these “white” giants also stole the land from indigenous people. It is rather insulting to suggest Rolling Thunder was any less able to make a rhetorical point than a white man. (The Comanche had been in contact with Christianity for centuries, but actively resisted missionaries.)
 
But Yates cuts out the context and thus turns this interesting cross-cultural exchange into simple proof that uncreative natives were uncritical reporters of the greatness of the white race.
 
Matias, who is actually plagiarizing verbatim from this blog post by Yates, makes them into Nephilim, with (sigh) double rows of teeth, adding that “the double row of teeth probably was selected as an evolutionary advantage in their beachcomber origin out of Africa” because giants, as all good gigantologists know, love shellfish, being evil and an abomination to God, that well-known hater of shellfish. Our authors know that the giants are Nephilim because they speak a “Semitic” language!
46 Comments
Only Me
2/8/2016 01:42:07 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how these gigantologists know so much about a race of giants that have never been proven to exist.

They're either astoundingly stupid, born compulsive liars or both.

Reply
Clete
2/8/2016 02:12:20 pm

Those who believe in giants seem to me to fall into line with those who believe in Bigfoot and alien visitation. They believe so because of shoddy second hand evidence, but never on hard scientific proof. Then, when asked to prove their beliefs, fall back with the old line "Well, science hasn't proven they don't exist, so they must exist because the people who believe in them certainly wouldn't lie."

Reply
Time Machine
2/8/2016 02:48:34 pm

The Nephilim of the Bible !
They existed !

Jonathan Feinstein
2/8/2016 02:53:16 pm

I sometimes think a lot of these fringy ideas find acceptance out of insecurity on the part of the believers. They see scientists and scholars as smarter than they are (some are, but others just have a better education). Being able to say, "There! These so-called geniuses don't know it all. They can't accept evidence when placed before them." makes them feel better about themselves.

Those feeding them the shoddy evidence do so without proof, they just say things like :"A human skeleton eight feet tall was found and dated... whenever." It doesn't matter if there ever was such a find and if it was what was claimed. The same goes for racial claims or OOP or intentionally misrepresented artifacts; far easier to make up what you want than find real verifiable evidence. Of course you cannot logically prove a negative and those making the extraordinary claims for whatever motive know that full well.

... and I am this close to ranting, so I'll stop

Tony
2/9/2016 04:03:10 pm

Time Machine -- The Nephilim were just a tall tale. Get it, tall?

I'll see myself out.

DaveR
2/9/2016 04:07:55 pm

I don't know, Tony, I think that might have fallen a little short.

Bob Jase
2/9/2016 04:35:37 pm

Tony - take the high way, its faster.

Shane Sullivan
2/8/2016 01:45:10 pm

"Halbert declared that the Mound Builders were a separate white race, “perhaps almost, if not quite, as fair as we...”"

But of course; if they were cannibals, then they couldn't have been *that* white! =P

Reply
Ysne58
2/8/2016 02:25:10 pm

2nd to last line, 1st par, the a before depressing
3rd line, 2nd par, my should be mine (I think)

Reply
Kal
2/8/2016 03:31:43 pm

Again with words that sound like other words? That doesn't make them the same word. For instance, anos (with that ene mark) and anus are two very different words. One means 'years' and the other 'butt'.

Even some creationists don't buy that there are living Bible giants today.

Again with the Jewish Indian thing and it's conflated with the Mormon Indian thing.

It seems to never occur to them that since Europeans took over, there have been some interacting, missionaries, crossover, and cultural trading! Come on. It is more likely that a religious group converted the natives at a later date than it is the natives met space giants thousands of years before the colonies.

History Channel already did an Indian and Jewish thing, and then they did an African and Jewish thing, speculating that it must have been some kind of ancient mystery, when it was in both cases more likely missionary travels.

The Indians met missionaries and adapted to their culture.

The Africans in the other story did the same.

The Mormon like story is the same but in reverse, with the missionaries completely rewriting the native stories to fit theirs.

It makes more sense than some mysterious space giants.

How come most of the giants turned out to be bones from animals?

People just didn't understand that they were the bones of giant animals.

...because...aliens...

And the Quesalupa! The mystery box at Taco Bell...because aliens!


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DaveR
2/8/2016 03:40:43 pm

Well, of course the giants have to be white. Giants of color simply would not have the advanced mathematical and architectural skills necessary to build these great structures around the world.

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Rose McDonald
2/9/2016 02:37:40 am

Please, don't let the Vieira brothers get wind of any of this! They'll be recruiting Scott Wolter to go on a giant hunt with them. Then the History channel will jump in with both feet and slap together a new series; "The Hunt for Lost Templar Giants in the Minoan Mines of Northern Michigan".

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DaveR
2/9/2016 07:36:22 am

How about "The Hunt for Nazi Giants in the SS?"

Who am I kidding, Lost Templar Giants is way better than Nazi Giants.

Bob Jase
2/8/2016 08:30:14 pm

Considering the older sources for its contents I'd say that cut & paste fringe history dates back to at least the OT.

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E.P. Grondine
2/8/2016 10:43:53 pm

The problem is that there was a very tall and robust people, who called themselves the Andaste.

John Smith met them, George Alsop lived with them.

And their remains have been professionally excavated,
In their material culture they are fairly distinct.

They were remembered by many peoples for their general nastiness.
Gideon Linecum provides another version of the Choactaw traditions about them.

It is strange to watch what theosophists, christians, and various batshit crazy people do with the data.

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titus pullo
2/9/2016 08:26:02 am

I hate to say this but where are the bones? Seriously if "giants" existed on the north american continent don't you think entraprenuars would have been showing them for decades to make a few bucks? End of story.

And this hs around Norse being "giants" to the native americans and somehow the very limited contact in the arctic and labrador somehow created myths of "white giants" throughout the eastern and mid west is a bit crazy as well. Norse during this time were on average about 5'9"...taller by a few inches than say Italians at that time but not "giants."

Now go to the Netherlands today and you will see giants. the average height of a dutch man or women has skyrocketed since WWII. If there are giants today they are there..and as anyone who has gone there can attest..some of the most lovely women in the world...but pretty tall.

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E.P. Grondine
2/9/2016 12:15:28 pm

Where are the bones? The bones in the Smithsonian collection were
"reclassified" by Hrdicka:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ale%C5%A1_Hrdli%C4%8Dka

Professor Emeritus Marshall Joseph Becker has done work with the remains excavated by Dragoo (Mounds for the Dead); I do not know if he has worked with the remains excavated by Neuman.

I am pretty sure that those mining my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas" and what has been released of Vine DeLoria'a final book.will incorporate that data into their own "frameworks" to support all sorts of nonsense.

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David Bradbury
2/9/2016 08:43:13 am

An odd note.
Yates's "Atlans" (and also his "Kutans"- the other group of tribes supposedly occupying the east of North America) are apparently deliberate mis-spellings of Rafinesque's originals, which were "Atalans" and "Cutans".

Maybe the original spellings gave the game away too easily; seemingly created entirely by Rafinesque, they are uncomfortably close to the names of the principal female characters in Chateaubriand's then-recent story: the eponymous "Atala" and the younger Celuta.

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Gary
2/9/2016 12:38:05 pm

"living near Piano, Collin County, Texas,"

I believe that should be "Plano" not "Piano".

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 12:05:47 pm

I want to commend Jason on his work to expose the hoaxsters, but I have also found some serious errors in his overall perspective on this topic. Moreover, I find the majority of the comments on this page to be woefully ignorant of historic fact, which is as bad a travesty as the disinformation spread by pseudoscientists. . Here's why, using quotes from valid publications as they appeared on February 12th of 2016:

Cro-Magnons were anatomically modern, straight limbed and tall compared to the contemporaneous Neanderthals. They are thought to have stood on average 176.2 cm (5 feet 9 1⁄3 inches) tall,[34] male fossils are recorded as being 195 cm (6 feet 5 inches) and taller.[35][36] They differ from modern-day humans in having a more robust physique and a slightly larger cranial capacity.[37] The Cro-Magnons had long, fairly low skulls, with wide faces, narrow aquiline noses,[38] and moderate to no prognathism.[26] A distinctive trait was the rectangular eye orbits.[39] Their vocal apparatus was like that of present-day humans and they could probably speak.[40] -Wikipedia Cro-Magnon
A recent study by Trent Holliday comparing early and late Upper Paleolithic skeletal materials provided an average male height of 170 centimeters (early) and 168 centimeters (late), and average female height of 157.6 cm (early) and 158.4 (late). However, Formicola and Giannecchini's data revealed that "EUP [Early Upper Paleolithic] males are much taller (176.2 cm) and LUP [Late Upper Paleolithic] shorter (165.6 cm), with an average difference of 10.6 cm.
Similarly EUP females (162.9 cm) largely exceed LUP females (153.5 cm)." I think the jury is still out.
-Kris Hirst about.com "Why Don't We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore?"
According to Lee R. Berger of the University of Witwatersrand, numerous fossil bones indicate some populations of heidelbergensis were "giants" routinely over 2.13 m (7 ft) tall and inhabited South Africa between 500,000 and 300,000 years ago.[29][30][31] -Wikipedia "Heidelberg Man"
Non-modern varieties of Homo are certain to have survived until after 30,000 years ago, and perhaps until as recent as 10,000 years ago. Which of these, if any, are included under the term "archaic human" is a matter of definition and varies among authors. -Wikipedia "Archaic Humans"
3% of the taxonomic diversity in primate paleocommunities has been recommended and documented in the fossil record -Martin (1990) http://www.isu.edu/rhi/pdf/Editorial_Bushy%20Trees.pdf
New evidence suggests another group may also have been extant as recently as 11,500 years ago, the Red Deer Cave people of China.[7] - Wikipedia "Archaic Humans"
In some societies, especially tribal societies, cannibalism is a cultural norm. -Wikipedia "Cannibalism"
The dawn of agriculture around the world was accompanied by a surprising trend. From China to South America and everywhere in between, people in farming cultures became shorter and less healthy than their hunter-gathering ancestors. -Discovery.com "People Grew Shorter Growing Crops"
Shouldn't it say that they grew shorter and less healthy than their archaic hunter-gatherer cannibalistic neighbors?
Hmmm...and we wonder where the giant myths from cultures on every continent come from.
I commend you on your work debunking the loony-toon claims of the charlatans, Jason...I think this point needs some clarification.
Since we keep finding new archaics that survived into the Neolithic, and those may only represent 3% of the total that actually existed at the time, I am not seeing the problem with tall, robust populations of archaic hunter gatherers inspiring the near universal myths of giants around the world.
I am also not seeing the problem with ancient tall hunter-gatherers being seen as cannibals, since we've recently discovered that the gene for prion disease immunity made a sweep over almost our entire genome during the Paleolithic.
Some researchers believe that
Early Eurasian agriculturalists averaged about 5'4 in height.
Are you telling me that a 6'5 robust archaic is not a giant to a 5'4 gracile agriculturalist who is likely suffering from malnutrition?
Have you ever stood next to a 6'5 wrestler? It's alot more overwhelming than standing next to a 6'5 basketball player, and I am 6'2.
A 6'5 archaic would make a wrestler look puny.
Some of our myths may have also come from"pygmy" and "negrito" populations and ancestors, who are even shorter. The Palau "archaics" from merely 3000 years ago average slightly over 3 feet tall.

If you believe that every inherently tall or short heidelberg/archaic population disappeared from the planet the day the first anatomically modern human was born approximately 200,000 years ago...you'll be hard pressed to explain the existence of Iwu Eleru, Red Deer Cave People, the "hobbit," the Palau archaic hominids, the "neanderthaloid" skulls from Beijing and Mongolia, and Balangoda Man...all of which date to a period between 12000 and 9000 years ago at the dawn of agri

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 12:11:27 pm

(Comment Continued)
If you believe that every inherently tall or short heidelberg/archaic population disappeared from the planet the day the first anatomically modern human was born approximately 200,000 years ago...you'll be hard pressed to explain the existence of Iwu Eleru, Red Deer Cave People, the "hobbit," the Palau archaic hominids, the "neanderthaloid" skulls from Beijing and Mongolia, and Balangoda Man...all of which date to a period between 12000 and 9000 years ago at the dawn of agriculture.
You know...that time when man was making up his origin stories and myths and even beginning to keep symbolic records of them?

The reason people turn to conspiracy theories is not because they are "fundies" like you imply elsewhere. It is because scientific scepticism often seems devoid of "common sense" and "street smarts."
It was obvious that certain "cro-magnons" were Neanderthal hybrids from the first day they were found, but for half a century science insisted that they were not and that no one on Earth has neanderthal admixture.
Those of us who study both myth/legend and archeology/paleoanthropology have long realized that archaics must have survived into the Neolithic. Mainstream science has only caught up in the last 15 years.
What skeptics need to understand and acknowledge is that the last population of a species or subspecies is almost never going to leave a fossil. In the 2 to 6 million years that chimpanzees have existed, they have left one single tooth in the wild for us to find as a fossil.
If an animal leaves a fossil, it means that it was extremely successful and prolific during the time period. In most cases, it's safe to add 5 to 10 thousand years to an extinction and reamin in the realm of probability...and that's being extremely conservative.
Red deer Cave and Flores imply gaps in the fossil record of as much as 1.8 million years.
Almost every year, we discover a new species of extant megafauna. The Bili Ape is as big as a gorilla, discovered in 2000. The Saola was discovered in 1992. Two years ago they discovered a Komodo sized varanus lizard in the Phillipines.
We've NEVER found a fossil of those species...so if they had died out before we photographed them...we would have never even known that they existed.
All I am asking is for skeptics to add the laws of reason and probability to the scientific method.
Extraordinary claims DO require extraordinay evidence...but the idea of an archaic surviving into AT LEAST the Neolithic is not extraordinary whatsoever. In fact, it's actually been proven.
We're still waiting on height estimates for the Red Deer Cave people and theMongolian/Beijing population...but we know that Balangoda Man's average was at least 6' (meaning males were even taller) and that the population was hyper-robust when compared to nearest agriculturalists, who averaged around 5'4 in northwest India.

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Only Me
2/12/2016 01:12:18 pm

This is well and good, but, we're talking about gigantologists insisting a distinct race of giants, usually white, was traipsing about North America...and the "evidence" is tribal lore and newspaper articles written during the days of yellow journalism.

Nothing in your comments addresses the staples of gigantology: multiple rows of teeth, six digit hands and feet, heights of 8' and above—all of which are claimed as typical traits.

This is the heart of the matter: if someone is claiming the first inhabitants of North America were a race of 10' white giants, there needs to be archaeological evidence, not tales, to prove it.

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 01:58:27 pm

Ploydactyly is a trait shared among all homo sapiens, tall or short.
The phrase "double rows of teeth" was used to mean that a specimen had full rows of both upper and lower teeth. This was rare back then, and finding a 'race" of hunter-gatherers was therefore surprising to these researchers from the 19th century. The term "double-teeth all round" meant that the specimen had worn his/her incisors down to a "shape" that resembles molars. "Double-teeth" is an antiquated word for "molar."
These aren't all hoaxes, they just show poor research of the era's terminology.
*I* insist on several DISTINCT "races of 'giants," including Rhodesian Man, Idaltu man, Proto-Aurignacion "cro-magnon" man...also Balangoda man and possibly the "Tutsi" before the Bantu takeover...not to mention the possibility of Denisovan, Red Deer Cave people, and Meganthropus.
Want more modern "races" of giants? The yamacra indian males (of the Savannah) area averaged 6'5 and their chief, Tomochichi, stood 7 feet tall.
Savannah is built on Mississippian mounds, and most of the so-called 'giants" of the 1800s and early 1900s were found in mounds of this culture.
No they were not 'white."
But what you and other skeptics are doing is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, refusing to answer ligitimite questions... therefore giving the fringe thinkers a chance to fill the gap you leave behind.

Only Me
2/12/2016 02:31:08 pm

I know about polydactyly and the meaning behind "doubles rows of teeth" and "double teeth all around". We agree this is poorly understood terminology, but there are gigantologists who still persist in misrepresenting both characteristics to claim proof of giants.

"But what you and other skeptics are doing is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, refusing to answer ligitimite questions... "

I'm doing no such thing. I'm asking for testable, physical evidence that proves a race or separate culture, composed of giants and nothing but, existed in North America. Also, I cannot answer questions I've never been asked.

I know there are individuals or small numbers of individuals who are examples of gigantism. They are most usually outliers within the population. Their existence, however, does not prove that a race/culture of giants inhabited North America in great numbers...while simultaneously failing to leave behind any archaeological evidence.

J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 02:18:24 pm

As far as 10 foot tall giants go...you are right that there is no evidence of this in the neolithic period. Meganthropus robustus (a rare form of erectus)and gigantopithecus blacki were around that height, but the former is a million years old and giganto supposedly died out 50 to 250 thousand years ago. However, if modern humans who average 5'8 can produce a nearly 9 foot tall specimen due to gigantiusm or another genetic disorder...isn't it probable that an ethnic group that averages 6'5 would likewise produce a 10' specimen via the same disorders?
He might not be able to walk very well or live very long, but all I'm saying is this- not all of these reports from the 1800s are hoaxes, and certain extinct ethnic groups stood well above the average.

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j. lyon layden link
2/12/2016 03:34:16 pm

My main beef with pseudo-scientists is that they read a term like "double rows of teeth" and immediately accept the idea that ancient tall people had shark-like Alien teeth.
My main beef with skeptics is that they read a term like "double rows of teeth" and immediately dismiss the entire account as fraud.
In most cases, all it takes it takes is a google search to find the best explanation...so why does this happen so much with both your factions?

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Only Me
2/12/2016 04:56:00 pm

"why does this happen so much with both your factions?"

I can't really answer that. I wouldn't try, as I would be guilty of presuming the reasons why this is for all the individuals concerned.

At least with the dental terminology, Andy White has written several blog posts examining and explaining the misrepresentation of the terminology by gigantologists.

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 04:04:07 pm

".. does not prove that a race/culture of giants inhabited North America in great numbers...while simultaneously failing to leave behind any archaeological evidence."
Since we have multiple articles on excavations of 6'5 to 8' tall skeletons from the 1800s and early 1900s in North America, and we have multiple eye witness accounts from early colonists of tribes of Native Americans whose males averaged 6'5 to 7', and since we know that Y Haplogroup Q descends from Siberian Cro-Magnons which were taller and more robust than modern people...isn't it just common sense that certain genetic populations (tribes/nations/races) would be tall enough to inspire the word "giant?"
Will the archeologists of 100 years from now discount the finds of the Leakey's because they used 2oth century terminology and the bones disappeared?

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Only Me
2/12/2016 05:00:34 pm

When it comes to the skeletal measurements, it needs to be said that the method of determining height from the remains was inconsistent and has been found to be inaccurate when previously measured remains were reexamined. This doesn't mean all measurements were wrong, just that enough of them were to warrant further analysis to verify the initial reports.

We also have to remember that gigantologists have been inconsistent when it comes to defining what they consider a giant.

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 04:23:11 pm

"...failing to leave behind any archaeological evidence."
Again, most of these reports claim that the bones were found in "mounds" which implies the Mississipian Culture, which had come to an end before the arrival of the western colonists.
So the archeological evidence is the Mississippian culture and the reports made at the time of excavation, and we also have cultural evidence in the form of Native American stories, and we have circumstantial evidence in the form of the accounts of many colonists. Oglethorpe was interested enough to actually measure the Yamacra males, but of course he did not follow the scientific rigors of the 21st century since he only arrived in 1733. Should we throw out his accounts along with those of other colonists who thought to record the height of Natives, in order to fight the big bad creationists and alien theorists? Is the political agenda more important than the truth about these extinct peoples? Is it more important than a possible explanation for the giant legends and myths around the world?

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Only Me
2/12/2016 05:12:29 pm

The archaeological evidence I'm looking for is the same evidence that normal-sized peoples have left behind. If giants existed in sufficiently high numbers to have their own communities, then there should be physical remains of those communities. Where are the giant-size tools, everyday items, buildings, midden pits, art/religious objects, etc.? Where are the communal graves, as opposed to individuals found in a handful of mounds?

You've provided archaeological, anthropological and paleontological examples of Neolithic and older humans. So far, all gigantologists, like the Vieiras, have offered are stories and newspaper articles.

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E.P. Grondine
2/16/2016 03:47:07 pm

"mississippian cultuers" were still active at European arrival.

The "giant" reports petty much came from Adena Mounds.

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J. Lyon Layden
2/12/2016 07:26:29 pm

The only reason that we do not have that evidence is because we no longer have access to it, due to Native American rights. We are not even allowed to extract the DNA of the Kennewick Man, which would do so much for Paleoanthropology. They are not excavating any new mounds, and the only money granted is for preserving mounds near highway sites. Their are mounds in the woods down the street from my house and they are likely full of the 7' skeletons of Mississipian "nobles" but I can't touch them either. Unless I spent my life savings on the proper methods, doing so would not result in "proof" no matter what I found. The current peer review method is too finance intensive, and any remains would get claimed by the Cherokee as soon as they were out of the ground.
So since we are not allowed to find the truth, should we assume that the Mississippians could have been anywhere from 3' to 8' tall and that there is no chance that they could have had any particular average height? Or do we use circumstancial and testimonial evidence to reach an average height, considering our inability to proceed with gathering further data?

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Only Me
2/12/2016 08:05:02 pm

Actually, the DNA of Kennewick Man has been extracted and sequenced. That happened in July 2015.

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J. Lyon Layden
2/13/2016 09:17:50 am

I must have missed it. Did they only extract the mtDNA?
I need to know his Denisovan content, his Neanderthal content, his LM3 insert content, and whether or not he has Microcephalin D.
These are all much more important than the mtDNA, and if they've only extracted the mtDNA they need to let another team try before they put it back in the ground. Thinking that mtDNA alone can tell us everything is what put the idea of Neanderthal admixture in the realm of pseudoscience for half a century. It's the reason why a brilliant scientist named Stan Gooch died alone in a trailer park. For some reason, moronic scientists of the 20th century did not know that there were such things as paternal grandmothers or maternal grandfathers. For some reason 20th century scientist could not comprehend the idea that Y Adam and mtDNA Eve might have come from completely separate populations or even (sub)species of homo. For some reason they didn't realize that the mast majority of homo sapien sapiens mtDNA and Y lineages are extinct...or that unmixed homo sapien sapiens is extinct and that only hybrids remain.
The evidence was always there. Cro-Magnon was an obvious hybrid, but the PC police repressed that knowledge until the DNA results spanked their ass.
Kennewick Man is a member of the second wave of immigrants into America, and the arrow wounds in his bones are circumstantial evidence that helps prove the obvious: The Y Haplogroup Q scalp hunting culture moved into America at the end of the ice age and killed all of the men, therefore erasing all traces of Y Haplogroup D and exiling tribes dominated by Y Haplogroup C to the badlands.
I would guess that Kennewick man is Y DNA D but I bet they didn't even bother to extract it, or failed and then also failed to pass it on to a peer for a second attempt.

J. Lyon Layden
2/13/2016 09:35:02 am

OK I found it:
A first attempt at DNA analysis in the early 2000s found that meaningful results were impossible to attain with the techniques available at that time. With changes in technology, additional DNA testing of remains has been conducted by an analytical laboratory in Denmark. A 2013 e-mail from the laboratory to the USACE stated the feeling, based on preliminary results of analysis, that the specimen contained Native American DNA. However, no final results have been presented, and the laboratory refuses further discussion until such time.[47] A DNA study announced in June 2015 concluded, "Kennewick Man is closer to modern Native Americans than to any other population worldwide" and that genetic comparisons show "continuity with Native North Americans over at least the last eight millennia."[48][49] The same study confirmed the mitochondrial haplogroup X2a and the Y-chromosome haplogroup Q-M3 of Kennewick Man, both lineages are found almost exclusively among modern Native Americans.[48]

Notice there is no mention of archaic admixture percentage. Notice there is no mention of whether Microcephalin D or the YAP mutation was detected.
He is Y haplogroup Q, but his anatomy is Ainu/Jomon.
Skulls don't convergently evolve- that is a bunch of "woo" that has no evidence in the real world. It would require a morphic field ala Rupert Sheldrake at the very least for that to occur.
What this means to me is that Kennewick Man was born after the Y hap Q takeover.
And I'm pissed they put it back in the ground before extracting the info on the most important stuff- microcephalin D, YAP, Denisovan, Neanderthal, and the LM3 insert.

J. Lyon Layden
2/13/2016 10:09:32 am

If he has the LM3 insert at as high a percentage as the Ainu and the Indigenous tribes of the Amazon, that would tell us a great deal.
I should have guessed that despite his Jomon skull, his tribe had already been indoctrinated and assimilated into Y hap Q culture...because he has all of his teeth.
The Y Haplogroup DE culture that dominated the northern hemi during the Ice Age and took over North and East Africa practiced tooth knocking, from the Iberomaurusians of Morocco to the Jomon and even to Mungo Man. These cultures often share Y hap DE, mtDNA N1 or U, the LM3 insert, tonal languages, the YAP mutation, red ochre burials, and high Neanderthal admixture.
The Y Haplogroup CF group, however, which expanded during the Upper Paleolithic and finally broke through the y hap DE and Neanderthal barriers about 28 thousand years ago, did not practice tooth knocking. Their fetish became head-binding by the tiome of the agricultural revolution, and it likely came from trying to look like the hominids they aquired Microcephalin D from via assimilation.

Only Me
2/13/2016 01:50:12 pm

They didn't put KM back in the ground. He's still in custody of the Burke Museum and under the control of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. For now, he is not subject to NAGPRA.

Here is a link to the test results:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v523/n7561/full/nature14625.html

J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 07:35:49 pm

Why does a tribe with an average of 6'5 need a larger tool? Do basketball players get special tools at Home Depot?
The Missippian Culture was pretty much ALL middens, and the middens are where the skeletons were reported to be found. Again, can we only accept skeletons excavated in the last 50 years even though these institutions are notorious for losing them after they are documented? It's not a conspiracy that we don't have them or a "Smithsonian" cover-up, it's Native American rights and activism.
Why would the women have to be tall? Sexual dimorphism was greater in the paleolithic era, is greater today among most hunter-gatherers, and is different depending on the ethnic group even today.
We don't have absolute proof that ethnic groups of very tall, robust people existed as a population in North America...it's just extremely probable when we look at the oral traditions, historic testimonials, and reports of excavations in the past. It might not be good enough for mainstream acceptance, but it's a damn good bet against future understandings if you're trying to write prehistoric fiction about North America.

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Only Me
2/12/2016 08:15:35 pm

This is where my point about gigantologists not agreeing on what constitutes a giant come in. You're going by realistic standards; most of the "evidence" for giants comes from articles claiming skeletons of 8' and above. I can assure you, someone at that size can't use normal-sized implements easily.

The women would have to be tall because, if not, there's a 50/50 chance the offspring would be of normal height. That kind of goes against the argument of a population composed of giants, of sufficient numbers, to form communities and compete against their neighbors for generations. Otherwise, the narrative has to be amended to say "a population of giant men".

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 08:35:58 pm

Well yes it gets tricky. A recent paper shows an extreme bottleneck of Y haplogroups during the neolithic all over the world. There is NOT a coinciding mtDNA bottleneck evidenced.
Though the mtDNA and Nuclear DNA of Native Americans says three waves into America, the Y DNA says one wave, then a smaller one for Eskimos.
This makes sense when you consider the world-wide Y DNA bottleneck.
The headhunter culture (y haplogroup Q ) moved in at the end of the Ice Age from the Berring Strait and killed the men and took the women.
That's the best explanation we can glean at the moment.
They would have to be really tall to still average 6'5 by the time they got to Savannah.

E.P. Grondine
2/13/2016 02:27:03 pm

Hi J. -

A few points for the general reader here:

First, there were no "Moundbuilders". Different peoples used earth to build structures for different purposes at different times; "mounds" are the remains of those structures after centuries of non-use.

Second, "Mississippian" is a culture, not a people. The Southern Ceremonial Complex was adopted by many different peoples.

In the case of some Mississippian nobles and some far western peoples, it is possible that they ate human pituitary glands for their Human Growth Factor.

Now back to the Andaste. These people were likely related to X mt DNA, evolved from Heidelbergensis along the Black Sea, and as a maritime people left there following athe rise in sea levels and the flooding of the Black Sea fat the end of the last Ice Age.

They were uniformly remembered as being assholes, and every people fought them.

Fundies ubnderstand them as Nephilim, while the nu-age Theosophists view them a some kind of super-race.

(Read my piece on Kieninger and Childress here:
http://www.thestelleexperience.com/ep-23-e-p-grondine-part-1/)

Someone is going to have to go through Hrdicka's reclassifictions, if any of that material remains.

As it is, we have Dragoo and Neuman's book (Mounds for the Dead) and excavation reports.

Given those religious needs, It is no wonder why there is so little interest in the shorter people of North America, such as Ocanachee or (pre-Creek) Yuchi.

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J. Lyon Layden link
2/13/2016 04:18:38 pm

Eating the human pituitary gland? Are you serious?
I don't agree that they were Heidelbergensis, because their y hap is R and Q, not A00...but yes they were definitely assholes.
I'm interested in the little people.
It actually seems that everywhere we look for the past 5 million years, their are two types of hominids filling two niches; short man niche and tall man niche.
Until the agricultural revolution, that is- when medium sized hybrids absorbed the short races and tall races. Hence, legends of giants and dwarves and ogres and nephilim.
Palau hominids, Hobbits, the Black Dwarves of Korea and Japan, Korrupokurru, Black Dwarves of Polynesia, brownies, dwarves, etc...all just archaics and moderns that we committed genocide on.

E.P. Grondine
2/16/2016 01:56:34 pm

Hi J. -

For the peoples mentioned, yes I am serious. Whether HGF could survive digestion, I do not know definetlively, but ai suspect so.

Y haps do not appeat too useful in tracking population movements, while Mt DNA haps seem to work pretty well. I used the Cambridge world databaae for my book, and since my stroke really d not keep up with allele work or newer chronological change estimate studies.

Have you ever considered the effects of large asteroid and comet impacts on human evolution, or of the development of mt DNA haplogroups?

J. Lyon Layden link
2/12/2016 07:56:41 pm

"...We also have to remember that gigantologists have been inconsistent when it comes to defining what they consider a giant."


I agree with you there, but I am not a "gigantologists," I am a prehistoric fiction writer. I'm not looking to champion an agenda, I am seeking the truth...something that mainstream academia can no longer provide because it has grown slow, timid, and overly politically correct in its methodology as well as its disclosure to the public.
I have to use probability, reason, and common sense in addition to the scientific method because of conflicting mainstream theories on the movements and "evolutionary paths" of populations of hominid in the Paleolithic and the Neolithic. If I don't, my fiction will be obsolete a hundred years from now. I think that being free of an agenda gives me an objective perspective that has helped me to figure out some interesting truths.

I'm afraid that in a few years I won't even be able to say the words 'homo erectus" or "neanderthal" because somebody will think I'm being racist about an ethnic group that went extinct 21 thousand years ago or longer, merely because I called them by a specific name other than just "homo sapien.".
PC police get in the way of a better model of human evolution almost as much as fringe scientists do.
All ethnic groups are equal because they have been evolving for the same amount of time and because certain important genes that survived the bottlenecks have spread to every population that remains. However, it does not follow that ethnic groups and shared ethnic traits do not exist.
If you don't have the Denisovan gene that helps you breathe at high altitudes like the Sherpas do, for instance, you do not have an equal chance of surviving with the Sherpas in Tibet. If you aren't as tall as a mammoth hunter, you're not going to do well keeping up with the other mammoth hunters when you track your prey across Siberia. If you have a puny Euro skull around a Euro brain, you do not have the photographic memory of an Australian aborigine and if someone hits you in the head with a club you are far more likely to die since your skull is over 25% thinner.
Y Haplogroup C is extremely rare in Europe, and was first found in a 5'4 a hunter-gatherer with blue eyes and brown skin from 10,000 years ago. Today, it only exists as a minority haplogroup within populations dominated by more "recent" haplogroups like I, H, G, and R.
But we wonder why the germanic tribes have a folk memory of blue eyed woodland "elves" that raided their barns which they called "brownies" in reference to the color of their skin? Really?
The Basques are the oldest people in Europe, and if the direct ancestors of any Euro people living today actually met a Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal it was probably theirs. Since we've established that relic "cro-mag" populations likely survived into the Neolithic, is there any wonder that the basques have legends of the Jentilak giants who fought with stone weapons? Or the Basajaun who were hairy and lived in the forest? You know they've found stone weapons in the Basques country even up until the time of the Romans and we have no idea how old those legends are.
The Y Haplogroup D ancestors of the Jomon and Ainu likely lived along the Pearl and Yangtze Rivers in China before the O and N haplogroups invaded and pushed them into Japan. That's where the Red Deer Cave People lived at the same time they were cultivating rice in the early Neolithic. The Red Deer Cave People were cannibals, and likely stole women like most of the other hunter-gatherer tribes of Eurasia.
Is their any wonder the Japanese have legends of ogres called the Oni who eat people and steal women?
Do you think that the Palau hominids and Hobbits have absolutely nothing to do with the Ebu Gogo? Do the 25% larger than modern orang utans of late Paleolithic South East Asia have absolutely nothing to do with the Orang Pendek?
These myths usually come from material things, not the imagination alone. When you see one that is near universal or spread over a certain demographic, there is usually a reason.

Reply
J. Lyon Layden link
4/10/2016 07:35:39 pm

Grondine,
What evidence do you have for this? the only thing I've ever heard about "eating the pituitary gland" was in association with dubious claims about the Skull and Bone Society.
Yes I have considered comet impacts and am a fan of the Clovis Impact Theory and Herbie Brennan's Vela F Theory. Also I know that the first erectus settlement in Indonesia was likely wiped out by such, being that the tools at the end of theirculture were riddled with tektites and their is a strewn field that likely dates to that time.

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