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This Week in Atlantis: News about the Lost Continent

7/17/2014

37 Comments

 
It’s been some time since I had news about Atlantis, so let’s take a look at some unfortunate ideas about Plato’s sunken continent from this week’s news.

First up we have a letter to the editor from the Recorder of Greenfield, Mass., which demonstrates the degree to which science fiction and fringe history views of Atlantis have superseded anything resembling Plato’s original account. Take a look:
I imagine most readers are at least somewhat familiar with the legend of Atlantis. The enduring myth of an ancient technologically advanced civilization might serve as a warning to us today. As I understand it, they messed with forces beyond their control, and were destroyed.

To cut a long rant short, fracking is freaking stupid!

Lessons learned, right?

MICHAEL D. JOYCE

Wendell
Here, Joyce accepts two science fiction and/or fringe history claims that do not appear in Plato’s account: (a) that Atlantis was technologically advanced and (b) that they were destroyed for presumptuous use of technological forces. Neither is found in Plato. He wrote in the Timaeus that the Atlanteans were about as technologically advanced as Classical Greeks. In the Critias he wrote that the end of Atlantis came not due to presumptuous use of technology but because they had become sinful and too enamored of power:
For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. (trans. Benjamin Jowett)
The parallel between the last words of Plato’s unfinished dialogue and the Genesis account the end of the antediluvian world have not escaped the attention of critics. But to our point: As late as Ignatius Donnelly’s Atlantis: The Antediluvian World (1882), Atlantis is very clearly depicted as nothing more than a well-developed Bronze Age culture, not as a technological super-civilization.

But the fringe history version bears little resemblance to this account. It derives instead from a different source. In Dweller on Two Planets (1894, published 1905), Frederick S. Oliver presents Atlantis as a technologically advanced civilization, and Edgar Cayce picked up on this in reusing Oliver’s material (reading 364-1) in his prophecies. There Cayce assigns to the Atlanteans a death ray, among other things (reading 364-11).

Science fiction similarly built Atlantis into a powerhouse of mysterious technology, particularly the movie serial Undersea Kingdom (1936), which also gave Atlantis high technology and a kind of death ray (a disintegrator).

The popular image of Atlantis built on these ideas has all but replaced Plato’s own.

That leads us to the latest claims from Christos A. Djonis, the author of Uchronia? Atlantis Revealed (2013), a book I discussed last fall that claims to locate Atlantis in the Cyclades islands, repeating earlier claims proposed by geologist Kalliopi Gaki-Papanastassiou et al. in 2010.

In a new press release sent out this week, Djonis now claims that Atlantis was much more than just the Cyclades. Now Djonis has adopted and adapted material popular in fringe history sources like Donnelly’s Atlantis and many, many later Atlantis books. You’ll recognize the following claim from Gavin Menzies’s Lost Empire of Atlantis (2011), Scott Wolter’s America Unearthed, and numerous other fringe history sources:
With DNA evidence and an array of other clues, it [Uchronia] confirms the likelihood that Atlantians discovered North America more than 10,000 years ago. Other ancient civilizations followed later, including the Bronze-Age Minoans, a post-Atlantian culture which regularly mined copper out of the region of the Great Lakes.
This claim, as I discussed several times before, derives from faulty calculations about the amount of copper mined from the Great Lakes during the Old Copper culture.

But wait: There’s more! Djonis also claims his book will also provide the truth about the human genome, the Nazca lines, the chamber under the Great Sphinx, and the Hebrew Bible! Of course it does. What’s a fringe claim nowadays if it doesn’t include the Bible, DNA, and all the greatest hits of Chariots of the Gods? Fringe claims aren’t just claims; they’re worldviews.
37 Comments
.
7/17/2014 03:27:25 am

TWO WORDs

EDGAR CAYCE

NOT PLATO

EDGAR CAYCE

Reply
.
7/17/2014 03:29:04 am

GOTO http://www.edgarcayce.org/

Reply
. link
7/17/2014 03:40:07 am

do combine the brainfreezes of R.E Howard, J.R.R. Tolkien
and Edgar Cayce with the social awareness of Edgar Rice Burroughs and you thusly have our new mythology that often
supplants Zeus or Athena worship. We see crude pulp mag
SciFi stimulating the sublime "god centers" of the brain that
Animism and ancestor worship had enlarged in our own
ancestors. i cannot debunk Joseph Campbell totally, and if
we rewrite Plato, we dovetail into solar verses lunar years
arguments. Lets agree Donnolly is just a footnote and that
Edgar Cayce was a prophet of the tymes given his true due.
Please, please, please GOTO the A.R.E site and tell me if
the cute lil ole photo of G.T is still up on their homepage!!!!

Reply
.
7/17/2014 03:48:29 am

http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/edgarcayce.aspx?id=1971

this is the humble timeline of his life taken from the A.R.E site...

it does not include how often FDR's courtiers prior to D-DAY

went to him and got life~readings. tis a great and terrible pity.

seriously, they all did included him in the D.C POTUS loop...of

brain~trust infrastructure 'advice and concent" decision making.

Reply
.
7/17/2014 03:54:13 am

Jason has this habit of rhetorically answering his own
questions with his own pithy and apt paragraphs. i also
now will opine that for the editor of a small town newspaper,
Edgar Cayce is a highbrow filler for those lazy news days.

"But the fringe history version bears little resemblance to this account. It derives instead from a different source. In Dweller on Two Planets (1894, published 1905), Frederick S. Oliver presents Atlantis as a technologically advanced civilization, and Edgar Cayce picked up on this in reusing Oliver’s material (reading 364-1) in his prophecies. There Cayce assigns to the Atlanteans a death ray, among other things (reading 364-11). "

Reply
.
7/17/2014 04:02:14 am

Jason's Id sensed on the VICTORIAN era AETHER that
EvD + J.T hath a conference in Virginia Beach on OCT 9-12

http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/conferences.aspx?id=8705

http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/conferencesVaBeach.aspx

Reply
.
7/17/2014 04:07:47 am

i don't often suggest an edit on Jason's wise prose...

"The popular image of Atlantis built on these ideas has all but replaced Plato’s own."

Seriously, Edgar Cayce's VERSION of the popular image of Atlantis built on these ideas has all but replaced Plato’s own.

Reply
.
7/17/2014 04:17:24 am

i am now going to be quiet so that TRIPLE SIX can wisely
opine on both EvD + J.T happily as we all try to come up
with NEW insights on a very old topic that indirectly can
connect up DOGGERLAND to BERENGIA and/or the Indus
river valley. For Atlantis or Mu to equal us, they needed a
slew of global trading networks and the evolution of a near
to post-industrial infrastructure despite the insistence by
academia that all our ancestors prior to the urbane Neolithic
Revolution were under a hunter/gatherer/forager set of
GUNz, Germz + STEEL or Steal ground~rules. we EMHs did
not have the population density for modern warfare despite
whut Arnold S's steroid pumped up muscles imply to us all...

Triple Six--- ought Constantine to have continued to worship
Jove? didst civilization go downhill after we ignored our Titans?
besides the new HERC movie looks way coooooooooooool.

Reply
will
7/18/2014 05:52:16 am

period, just an fyi text box will auto wrap text

Reply
Not the Comte de Saint Germain
7/17/2014 06:52:45 am

The posts made by . must be an experiment in stream-of-consciousness writing.

Reply
EP
7/17/2014 06:59:25 am

I do not always double-post, but when I do, octuple-post

Reply
joe
7/17/2014 04:47:56 pm

Keep posting my friends.

Gregor
7/17/2014 07:32:22 am

Steps for writing The Next Great Fringe Novel:

1. Climb to the very tippy-top of the Stupid Tree.

2. Fall, hitting every branch on the way down.

3. Hire some guys outside Home Depot and give them "BlackOps Security" t-shirts.

4. PROFITS! (or Prophets?...enh, either one!)

In any case... I do wonder whether this guy *honestly* believed what he was saying, or whether it was simply necessary for him to adjust the "enduring myth" in order to support his preconceived notion. That is, his "letter" to the editor is clearly about voicing discontent over "Fracking", or Hydraulic Fracturing of stone with the intent to extract oil / gases / hydrocarbons.

Personally I can't tell if he thinks that Atlantis had internal combustion engines and an economy driven by crude oil... or if he just wants to equate the imagined characteristics of Atlantis to support his Gloom'n'Doom view of the modern world.

Or, I don't know...maybe he caught SyFy's new "Tornadoquake", a "documentary" about the Fracking industry, and how it can lead to earthquakes formed entirely of tornadoes! And the tornadoes... THEY'RE ON FIRE!!

Reply
Uncle Ron
7/17/2014 02:57:51 pm

Just add sharks...

Reply
Gregor
7/17/2014 04:16:05 pm

Uncle Ron, you'll never make it in the business! The sharks are for the *sequel* (along with a handful of recycled passages and royalty-free graphics).

EP
7/17/2014 07:46:31 am

Before all of us pile on poor Michael D. Joyce, note that he describes the story of Atlantis as both "legendary" and a "myth". Sure he seems to have the contemporary version in mind, but that's less important than whether he thinks it's real...

Reply
Wes
7/17/2014 07:49:47 am

So, how were the Templars involved in Atlantis? I know there must be a connection ...

Reply
Baphomet
7/17/2014 08:23:22 am

David Hatcher Childress, his introduction to the 1997 edition of Charles G. Addison, The History of the Knights Templar "Clearly the Knights Templar saw themselves as inheritors of ancient knowledge that went back to Atlantis"

Reply
JaredMithrandir link
7/17/2014 07:50:25 am

What I think needs to be anaylized more is how the new Age view on Atlantis actually switches Plato's intent. To Plato his hypothetical Pre-Historic Athens was the ideal society and Atlantis the Evil Empire.

Basically Athens was Naboo/Alderan to Atlantis's Corisaunt.

Reply
Gregor
7/17/2014 08:20:50 am

1. "Alderaan"

2. "Coruscant"

3. Plato neither considered Athens ("pre-historic" or otherwise) the "ideal society" nor Atlantis the "Evil Empire". Athens was a city plagued by civil and moral issues, which Plato sought to address through allegorical stories and legends... one of which was that of a similarly developed city that faced the same problems, and what became of it when the citizens were unable to rise above them (no pun intended).

Reply
EP
7/17/2014 08:50:55 am

The "Critias" makes it very clear that at the time of the war between Atlantis and Athens, the latter were the most virtuous of all the people of the day, while the former were a powerful and decadent empire that was destroyed as divine punishment.

Whether Plato "believed" that the ancestors of his contemporaries were indeed the most virtuous people is hard to know, since on the one hand he made up the story of Atlantis, but on the other he probably subscribed to some cyclical view of history, according to which the normal course of a society's development does take it through a "golden age" stage.

Gregor
7/17/2014 10:34:05 am

I disagree:

First, the Critias is incomplete. The only things it makes "very clear" are the origin of Atlantis, the origin of Athens, and the onset of decadence in Atlantis (as discerned by Zeus).

Second, it is true that the Critias notes that Athens was borne of Athena / Athene (patently obvious) and her brother Hephaestus. Given that - as the Critias says - each allotment was infused by the 'seed' of it's respective god(s), and Athena & Hephaestus were both known as gods of "wisdom and virtue", those qualities became the supposed defining characteristics of the people of Athens.

However, this does *not* make them "the most virtuous of all the people of the day". In fact, such a judgement is entirely a modern conception laid over the story. Their essence of "wisdom and virtue" was no more or less "virtuous" (i.e. morally praiseworthy) than the brawn & martial spirit of Atlantis, or indeed of any other god's "children". That's the very point: the peoples of each allotment were infused with the essence of their patron god, and given that the Critias adjudicated all gods equal, there's absolutely no grounds for claiming that one was "better" than the other.

Never mind, of course, that the story is being "told" by philosophers (or, at least, *one* philosopher) who are of the city of Athens.

Third, the Critias makes it clear that the Kings of Atlantis were just as 'virtuous' and slavish to the law of gods and man as any other - perhaps more so - and that their allotment functioned as well as any other.

The problem arises when the "divine essence" drained from the people of Atlantis (I can only assume this is where the nutjobs get their racist theories) and the HUMAN essence (rather than divine) became the dominant force both within the kingdoms of Atlantis and its people.

Fourth, the Critias notes that the people of Athens (current to "his" telling of this tale) are as 'debased' as the former residents of Atlantis - if only because they have lost their connection to the divine essence through a vast period of devastation and "lapse of traditions". This is, he says, why they know *of* the ancients (and by them, the essence of the gods) but not their actions (how they embodied that essence).

Even with this, nowhere does it say that "prehistoric" Athens was *the* "ideal society", certainly not any more than Atlantis or any other city was (again, each had a god, and all gods were equal).

At *best* it denotes Critias's opinion that the people of Athens 9,000 years previously were "better" than those who inhabit Athens now... and, again, even that is not truly a 'judgement' because of his assertion that the people of Athens must now exist apart from the traditions and essence of Athene and Hephaestus that made their ancestors 'closer to the divine' (same as any other "prehistoric city")

In the end it's nothing more than an allegory of morality and philosophy, using the mythology of the time to tell a tale of what happens to "a house divided" (to use a much, much later phrase).

EP
7/17/2014 10:57:06 am

Before we proceed any further, I should mention that I have studied Plato's works under the guidance of leading classical scholars and have discussed the Critias with them. Everything I said is the received view of the specialists. Also, for what it's worth, it is the plain sense of what Plato says. Here is what he says about the Athenians:

"Such were the ancient Athenians, and after this manner they righteously administered their own land and the rest of Hellas; they were renowned all over Europe and Asia for the beauty of their persons and for the many virtues of their souls, and of all men who lived in those days they were the most illustrious."

Jason quotes the bit about the Atlanteans in his post...

As for the dialogue's incompleteness, it is irrelevant to the question at hand. The only part missing, as a classicist once put it to me is "battle scenes".

I agree about the "ideal society" point, though it's not what I was addressing. That's between you and JaredMithrandir :)

Gregor
7/17/2014 11:52:31 am

@EP

I must admit I cannot contend with the "top... men..." of Classics you conversed with. More to the point, for whatever it's worth my exposure to / education in Plato was from the "Ancient Western Philosophy" approach, rather than Classics.

As for your quote... he does say that. Indeed, the Ancient Athenians must have been miraculous beyond all reasoning given that those of Atlantis (Atlantians? Atlanteans? Atlantics?) were described thusly:

"...as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them..."

I dunno... by that point it becomes a matter of splitting hairs, akin to "sure, the Atlanteans were "really great"...but the Athenians were SUPER "really great"!"

To me, the best one can argue (regardless of whether they hold "Top Men" status) is that in the primordial origins, all of these allotments and peoples were of equal virtue, glory, etc. as apportioned from and discerned by their appointed god. The chasm between Athens and Atlantis appears only as the Atlanteans lose their "divine essence" while the Athenians (at least for the time) retain theirs. In that sense, I can see arguing that the Athenians were "the greatest", though that's something like arguing one man is "more innocent" than a convicted felon (especially since all other allotments are nameless and docile by this point). In other words, the Athenians weren't "the greatest ever", they're just the ones who held on to the divine spark (which is all that was ever "great" to begin with) the longest.

Lastly, I just have to say that the quip about "The only part missing, as a classicist once put it to me is "battle scenes"." bothers me more than a little. I can't make a claim as to be right or wrong on this, it just strikes me as a terribly casual (if not callous) disregard for the text and whatever may be missing. It's entirely possible that the only portions missing are the ramping scenes of half naked dudes spiral-cutting each other a la "300"... but to assume that over the possibility of other insights simply doesn't sit well with me.

EP
7/17/2014 12:11:12 pm

Scholars of Ancient Greek philosophy are a kind of Classicists. That's how they refer to themselves most of the time. Many of them are cross-appointed to philosophy and classics departments. I don't understand the point you're trying to make by distinguishing between the two. I don't even think there are two "approaches", really...

When interpreting the quote about the Atlanteans, note the "as long as"...

Finally, I assure you that casual mode of expression does not imply casual attitude toward the subject.

Gregor
7/17/2014 12:31:07 pm

@EP

I distinguish them because "Classics" is separate from "Philosophy". I learned of ancient western philosophy (including Socrates and Plato) from men & women who described themselves as philosophers, not purveyors of ancient culture / literature / religion. Both are valid (and very interesting) pursuits, but they don't use the same methods or seek the same understandings.

As for the "as long as", I *did* note that... matter of fact, that was the point of the entire lower third: that 1, the "divine essence" was really the only "glorious" or "virtuous" thing...and that 2, rather than being intrinsically "great", the Athenians were simply described as the group who managed to hold on to that divine essence longer than the others, including Atlantis. While the "divine essence lasted", the people of Atlantis (and, presumably, every other allotment) were just as noble and virtuous as any other. All of the peoples were human, and they all had the same base nature. The only thing that made any of them great was the divine essence within, and that greatness lasted only as long as they could keep hold of it.

EP
7/17/2014 12:42:17 pm

Perhaps I've lost track of the discussion. Which parts of what I have said do you disagree with, again?

Gregor
7/17/2014 01:56:34 pm

@EP

I'm red team and you're blue team.


....



strike that, *I* am blue team, and YOU are red team.

Reply
EP
7/17/2014 02:03:02 pm

I don't get it

Gregor
7/17/2014 04:27:28 pm

Teams. As in arbitrary (or nearly so). As I see it:

JM: Critias is just Star Wars, Ancient Athenians were the Ideal society.

G: No it wasn't, no they weren't

EP: Athenians actually stated explicitly as renowned for nobility and virtue (mistakenly taken by me as "yes they were")

G: No they werent, argument for all gods being equal, all "seed" being equal in virtue and respect to their patron god (mistakenly, I think?, taken as "Athenians were never that virtuous or ever cited as being such")

EP: citations of Athenians being the noblest and most virtuous (by the time the Atlantean war began), which was then (mistakenly) taken by me as "Athenians were always the best"

G: citation of Atlanteans being just as lauded, only with slightly different adjectives & descriptors, restating argument that Ancient Athens (at the "golden age" ) was no more the "ideal society" or "paragon of virtue" than Ancient Atlantis or any other golden-age "prehistoric" city.

EP: Citation of Classicist (that is, the study... not bigots) arguments.

G: Distinction between Classicists and Philosophers

EP: confused by / unclear on basis for distinction

G: restatement of distinction (basically flesh vs. bones, portrait vs. line drawing), clarification that I knew the Atlanteans were debased and wicked by the time of the war, and that it does not invalidate my claim that the Atlanteans were (prior to war / downfall) just as virtuous and noble as the athenians.

...and now this.

Or (at least from my perspective) in fewer words: we agree, then argue about the degree to which we agree.

EP
7/17/2014 05:09:42 pm

I never said I was unclear about the distinction between Classics and Philosophy. Please read what I actually said. I was unclear about why *you* were appealing to that distinction.

No one, as far as I can tell (not even JaredMithrandir!), was claiming that either Athenians and Atlanteans were *always* either virtuous or corrupt. At least, given that we're discussing the "Critias", that's the charitable way of interpreting what people have been saying.

(Also, are you confusing Classicism and Classism? Or am I missing a joke here?)

Gregor
7/17/2014 05:48:47 pm

-shrug-

I've read everything you've said; you may imagine slights if you must, but none of my statements were implications or accusations of ignorance on your part.

As noted above, the "most virtuous forever" was an error on my part (perhaps you skipped over it). Regardless, "ideal society" and citations of the "and of all men who lived in those days they were the most illustrious." passage both imply that the Ancient Athenians were the eternal paragons (particularly since it is not clear whether "in those days" refers specifically to the war with Atlantis, or to the 'golden age' in general).

Yes, it was a joke; Yes, I understand the difference between Classicism and Classism.

EP
7/17/2014 05:53:36 pm

No imagined slights, just confusion :)

BillUSA
7/17/2014 10:17:57 am

You know what gets me about the fringe theorists and Atlantis is that their schtick is basically science fiction that they believe to be real, which is based upon Plato's work of fiction.

If a real alien landed in my back yard and spoke English, I tell him unless he's here to take over our world he should get back in his ship and look for another planet which has some intelligent life on it.

Reply
Gregor
7/17/2014 04:48:31 pm

Reminds me of a joke they used in the animated series "Futurama".

In the scene there's about to be an alien invasion, and while everyone else is panicking, the oldest member of the group, Professor Farnsworth, is straightening out his clothes and using breath-freshener. When asked why he's doing all that, he replies:

"The last time this happened, they forced all the intelligent people to breed..."

Reply
William Russ
7/17/2014 11:21:01 am

Jason,
Don't forget that classic 1961 schlock sci-fi film, Atlantis, the Lost Continent. I saw it as a kid on TV, then years later on cable. It WAS awful. It pretty much regurgitates the Cayce material.

Reply
Dave Lewis
7/18/2014 01:14:59 pm

I saw that film in a theatre when I was 12. I thought it was pretty good at the time, but what would a pre-internet 12 year old know?

Reply

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