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UFO Investigator Blasts Lack of Transparency in UFO Studies, Seems to Blame CIA Mind Control Experiments

3/11/2016

58 Comments

 
I am tentatively planning to collect some of my best blog post from late 2013 through now for a collection of essays similar to my 2013 anthology Faking History. If you have a favorite blog post you think should be included, feel free to let me know. The only stipulation is that I won’t be using book or TV reviews. In theory, someday those will go into another book. I don’t have a timeline on producing the book yet, but the first step is gathering to the material together. I’m looking for around 50 total blog posts, articles, and essays to fill out the volume. 
Today I thought I’d share with you what I’ve read recently about UFO investigator Jack Brewer’s new self-published book, The Greys Have Been Framed. In the book, according to the promotional text (I have not read the book), Brewer looks into the “UFO community” and uncovers misconduct ranging from U.S. government interference to scientific fraud to outright hoaxing for cash. The overall theme seems to be that the “UFO community” of believers have been taken for a ride by a long line of charlatans and hucksters who are more interested in making UFOs into entertainment to sell conference tickets and low-quality books than they are in uncovering the so-called truth.
 
Brewer is a former grant writer, and he therefore examines the UFO movement through the lens of grant writing and non-profit accountability. In an interview with Lee D. Munro, Brewer explained that organizations claiming to search for the truth lack even basic levels of financial transparency, rendering them suspect:
… nonprofit organizations in the American UFO community lack transparency as compared to their counterparts in other segments of the nonprofit industry. Nonprofit organizations, frequently structured as 501(c)3 tax exempt corporations of the US Internal Revenue Service code, typically prioritize transparency in not only their financial matters, but also operations. Nonprofits often post their most recent financial audits on their websites for easy public access, as well as detailed reports of funding sources, primary program activities and significant accomplishments.
 
We're just not seeing that in ufology. It's very common for the directors and board members of ufology nonprofits to be difficult to access, particularly for questions of financial disclosures and accountability. It is similarly difficult to confirm specific program activities, numbers of program participants served and similar such information. Reporting and publishing such data is considered standard operating procedure in other aspects of the nonprofit industry.
He went on to criticize ufology nonprofits for making their leadership difficult to contact and for hiding financial conflicts of interest and the sources of their funding. “We should expect much higher levels of accountability and attention to detail from nonprofits that solicit our funding dollars and claim to be professionally operated.”
 
It hardly surprises me that UFO nonprofits would have shady accounting practices and a lack of disclosure. After six decades of “research” into UFOs, these organizations have produced not a single piece of verifiable evidence in favor of extraterrestrial spacecraft or interdimensional demons (or whatever they pretend UFOs are these days), but they have bilked their membership out of untold millions of dollars in fundraising. We’ve all heard about deceptive charities that spend the vast majority of their income on executive salaries and more fundraising campaigns, so it would hardly surprise me to learn that UFO nonprofits are similarly piggy banks for their leaders. That said, I’m assuming that Brewer is primarily taking aim at MUFON, the only nonprofit in the field he mentions by name. I have no information about MUFON’s financial structure, so I can’t comment on the implied criticism.
 
However, Brewer seems to suggest that one of the reasons for the lack of transparency—and here he goes off on the UFO crazy train—is that it covers deep U.S. government infiltration of the UFO community for mind control purposes. He apparently feels, if I understand his interviews correctly, that intelligence agencies are manipulating organizations and individuals for a variety of purposes, and he suggests (quite against all known documentation and based on the work of, sigh, Nick Redfern) that the CIA used mind control drugs to induce a UFO hallucination in Betty and Barney Hill as part of a racist plot to suppress the Civil Rights movement. I haven’t seen any documentation that would suggest this level of interest, though in the 1960s the government certainly did send in agents to monitor UFO meetings for covert Soviet propaganda, and the CIA and Air Force happily used UFOs as a cover for testing new aircraft.
 
His source, Redfern, claims the CIA paid John Fuller, the author of The Interrupted Journey, an account of the Hill abduction, to hide CIA-implicating mind control details related to the now-declassified MK ULTRA experiments in favor of a UFO narrative. The warrant for this, according to Redfern, is that Fuller once did research for a book on a mass-ergot poisoning incident in Pont-Saint-Esprit, France in 1951 that Redfern attributes to mind control experiments, despite the widespread scholarly consensus to the contrary. The trouble is that while Fuller had been aware of the story since reading of it in a newspaper in 1951, he only wrote the book about the French incident in 1968, two years after The Interrupted Journey. If he was a CIA patsy, it seems odd that the CIA waited many years after the fact to use him as such and then purposely revived interest in stories that few either remembered or cared about.
 
Redfern alleged in his 2014 book Close Encounters of the Fatal Kind that Fuller received information about MK ULTRA from parapsychologist Karlis Osis in 1957 but he provides no source and admits that he has no information that Fuller ever followed up on the alleged tip. (There isn’t any evidence Osis had any knowledge of MK ULTRA in 1957, so far as I can tell.) As with so many Redfern claims, they only make sense if you already believe the conclusion they are supposed to support.
 
Redfern has claimed in various online postings that he has declassified documents to support his version of events, but he has never quoted from or provided these, so far as I can tell.
 
Redfern’s claims aren’t original to him (surprise!) and can be found going back many years. An earlier version by H. P. Albarelli, Jr., in 2009 is less sensational: Fuller wrote an article about parapsychology in 1957, and he interviewed Osis for it. Osis then asked Fuller if he wanted to learn more about his ESP and afterlife experiments, which he did. As it turns out, Osis’s work was partially funded by grants from the military and the CIA (as was much junk science in the 1950s) in an effort to counter alleged Soviet parapsychology, which then lets us “connect” Osis to MK ULTRA through the transitive property of fringe history.
 
I guess I got a bit away from Brewer, who accepts Redfern’s “research” as factual. While Brewer’s standard of proof is much lower than mine, he is correct that “much too often ufology has served as a medium for like-minded individuals to support the subjective beliefs of one another.” 
58 Comments
Duke of URL
3/11/2016 12:09:57 pm

"He went on to criticize ufology nonprofits for failing to make their leadership difficult to contact"
Don't you mean "for making their leadership difficult to contact"?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
3/11/2016 12:41:21 pm

Yeah, I messed that sentence up.

Reply
Clete
3/11/2016 12:43:10 pm

Anyone using Nick Redfern as a primary source on anything is an idiot. In that case, he should also use Mickey Mouse and Francis the Talking Mule.

Reply
Bob Jase
3/11/2016 01:56:45 pm

Redfern would be my number one source if I could afford to build an above ground vegetable garden and needed fertilizer.

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/11/2016 11:21:24 pm

Your number one source? Even ahead of yourself?

Nick Redfern
3/11/2016 11:29:13 pm

Fuck off

Reply
Shane Sullivan
3/11/2016 12:52:33 pm

“much too often ufology has served as a medium for like-minded individuals to support the subjective beliefs of one another.”

I think he means:

“much too often ufology has served as a medium for like-minded individuals to support the manual stimulation of one another.”

...since he's talking about a circle-jerk, after all.

Reply
DaveR
3/11/2016 01:44:22 pm

He's complaining about UFO nonprofits not making their leadership and revenue sources open and easy to find, but he's ignoring the fact that UFO nonprofits do not exist to help people, rather they exist to bilk people out of their money.

The truth is the UFO fringe is ALL about getting people to buy cheap books, go to seminars, and send in money to support the cause of searching for the truth. This is an almost never ending stream of money because it's highly unlikely the truth will ever be found.

Reply
lurkster
3/11/2016 01:45:07 pm

Regarding suggestions for the new book; I'm really fond of all the Al-Maqrizi material. Picking just one piece is rather hard, because I really do like all of it equally. But if forced to choose I would go with the last one that really wow'd me: http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/philemon-enoch-and-the-second-hermes

Reply
Clint Knapp
3/11/2016 06:22:07 pm

Al-Maqrizi was my first thought when I read that paragraph, too. Consider the motion seconded!

Reply
Bob Jase
3/11/2016 01:57:20 pm

Reply
terry the censor
3/11/2016 02:21:57 pm

Redfern has been making these claims for a while and promising to bring out the evidence, but all we get is more innuendo. (See his comments from January 2014 at the link). I am reading Brewer's book, which so far has been reasonably well documented, but I dread reading the Hill chapter knowing Redfern is his source.

http://ufocon.blogspot.ca/2014/01/the-hill-abduction-morphing-details.html

See also my exchange with Redfern here, where he claims to have documentation for allegations he had just put in a book -- yet he neglected to put the documentation in the same book.

http://nickredfernfortean.blogspot.ca/2014/06/close-encounters-of-fatal-kind.html

To be fair to Redfern, the Magonians made similar, only slightly less plausible speculations in 2001:

Intelligence agencies have probably played little or no role in the modern abduction epidemic, but there is some evidence that they were involved in the Betty and Barney Hill story. Given that the Hills were a mixed-race couple activc in the civil rights and labour movement, they were almost certainly under FBI surveillance. The strange characters who first suggest missing time to Betty look like intelligence agents. Pushing her over the edge to discredit her seems like the sort of thing that Hoover's FBI might well have done. - Peter Rogerson, from Magonia 74, April 2001.

http://mrobsr.blogspot.ca/2014/03/conspiracies.html

Time for Redfern to give us the goods.

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/11/2016 11:17:36 pm

Censor:

I didn't "neglect" to include it. It's all - and much more - in a book I am working on which deals with the MK/UFO issue.

Its title: "Tripping the Flight Fantastic."

It's not innuendo. I publish what I want to publish when I want to. The "goods" will be in the book.

Reply
terry the censor
3/12/2016 09:32:52 am

Nick, it is a fact you've been making claims about Fuller/Hills for years without producing evidence. So as it stands, we have only the tenuous connections you make.

That is innuendo by definition.

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 09:45:03 am

Terry, No, it's not claims or innuendo.

Have I posted the documents etc online or in books or articles? No.

But, will I be doing so in the "Tripping the Flight Fantastic" book? Yes.

Because I haven't yet put the documents in the public domain doesn't mean they won't be.

As I said, there are some big, big scoops here, and so I'm putting it all in a book.

And I'm saving all the documents for the new book.

If you have a problem with me withholding them for the book release, then that's your issue.

I do what I do to my timetable and my decisions and not to the suggestions and comments etc of others.

Time Machine
3/12/2016 09:52:45 am

Dr Benjamin Simon eventually repudiated the Hills' testimony

http://badufos.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/dr-simon-reveals-his-real-thoughts-on.html

Mark L
3/14/2016 05:02:33 am

Just as we make personal decisions on your credibility and production of evidence in the past, and then extrapolate that to judge your credibility this time.

Ken
3/11/2016 02:40:49 pm

You know, not all UFO writers are certified whack jobs or hucksters. However, I think present company somehow considers any UFO writer a mental case unless he is a UFO debunker.

I nominate the following UFO writers as both believers AND credible writers/researchers: P. Hill, D. Keyhoe, E. Ruppelt, H. Rutledge, Nick Pope, R. Hall, S. Friedman, B. Maccabee, J. McDonald, A. Hynek.

I'm pretty sure there are more which escape me at the moment.

Not all ufologists should be lumped in with the Ancient Aliens crowd, and not all serious believers are out to make a fast buck.

Like Mulder, I want to believe also, but I have never actually seen a UFO (unless the CIA wiped my mind using mind control).

Just sayin'. Its important for skeptics to at least be fair (although that's asking a lot from this crowd).

Reply
Only Me
3/11/2016 03:46:43 pm

You should choose your words more carefully.

By saying, "However, I think present company somehow considers any UFO writer a mental case unless he is a UFO debunker" and "Its important for skeptics to at least be fair (although that's asking a lot from this crowd)", aren't you also lumping Jason and this blog's commenters into one basket? Not exactly practicing what you preach.

Reply
Ken
3/11/2016 04:21:52 pm

Possibly. However it seems to me that the last 2-3 months have gotten pretty snarky with more pure denigration and less thoughtful commentary. Yes, I am also guilty of piling on sometimes, too. And yes, there is some thoughtful commentary, so I shouldn't lump everyone together.

However, no one should be afraid of offering alternative interpretations or points of view to what appears on the surface to be pure laughable fringe nonsense. As I am not.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
3/11/2016 04:32:43 pm

I'm not very knowledgeable about UFOlogy, but the impression I get from this blog and the comments is that the UFOlogical has moved away from serious investigation and seeking hard evidence in the past 20 to 40 years and become increasingly mystical and faith-based. That could be a wrong impression, because I have little to base it on other than the information in the blog posts. In any case, a lot of us acknowledge that there are or have been more serious UFO investigators. We just don't think they've revealed any convincing evidence. And if the UFOlogical community is indeed taking a mystical turn, that is probably a sign that the evidence-based approach to UFOlogy isn't producing the answers that its members want.

Reply
Time Machine
3/11/2016 05:17:08 pm

It's been non-stop bullshit since 1947.
There never has been such a thing as a serious "UFO researcher".
All those crews in Space Stations in orbit around the Earth and none of them have ever spotted a flying saucer.


Ken
3/11/2016 05:26:23 pm

And therein lies the problem. No one, except possibly governments, is very knowledgeable about UFOs because to gather real data is an expensive proposition, not practical for individuals or even non-profit groups. I'm not very knowledgeable either because there is no real data. As a scientist, I just would like to know.

Unfortunately, and probably as a result of the 'mystical and faith based' element no reputable organization will spend the money. I would tend to believe the government if they hadn't given widely differing explanations over the years. We spend millions on SETI listening for radio signals from the universe, based simply on the premise 'there might be something there'. Spend 1/10 that establishing a few fixed, automated watch stations triangulating and monitoring actual lights (which we know are there) in various spectra. And stream the raw data so independents (not the military) can analyze it. If after 2 years the data reveals that they are all airplanes, satellites, meteors, etc., I'm sold. There really are no UFOs.

Time Machine
3/11/2016 05:29:51 pm

It would be a waste of money because most of the "witnesses" are hoaxers. And there's also those category of geeks who use their good reputation in society to perpetrate the hoaxes.

Time Machine
3/11/2016 05:18:44 pm

>>>Karlis Osis

He's not communicated with his pal Erlendur Haraldsson to prove there's life after death (another stupid fantasy).

Reply
Alex Stallwitz
3/11/2016 05:31:40 pm

You should include the essay about the origin of Pyramids as grain silo and the one about the origin of Anal Probes

Reply
Flapdoodle the Observer
3/11/2016 06:16:46 pm

RE: The new book- I'd suggest the material on Scotty Roberts and John Ward, as they have internet radio program, magazine, symposium, and books promoting their peculiar brand of racial theology.

Reply
Tony Marino
3/11/2016 10:24:09 pm

Yesterday,I read online about the Chinese delegate who attacked the United States because the U.S. criticized China's round up of dissenters. I said that for all of America's faults,our government doesn't make a habit of rounding up it's critics. In response,I got a bunch of conspiratorial nonsense about this and that. My response was fact based. The same respondent fell back on the same idiocy that he said earlier instead of giving me any proof for what he said.
I'm not a big believer in conspiracy theories and want proof for extraordinary claims. Not unproven nonsense. I wish that the UFO investigator would give us some evidence for his claims instead of nonsense without nothing to back it up.

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/11/2016 11:28:10 pm

Jason

I have never, ever said "...the CIA used mind control drugs to induce a UFO hallucination in Betty and Barney Hill as part of a racist plot to suppress the Civil Rights movement."

If that's his conclusion, then it's his theory. If it's offered as something I said, however, that's absolutely not the case.

Why in the name of hell would the CIA use a UFO hallucination in relation to Civil Rights? The only issues/claims I have ever looked into are those relative on this issue is to whether or not MK and similar projects simulated UFO events - but to determine if such techniques were feasible. But to suppress the civil rights movement? Er...what the fuck???

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/11/2016 11:56:29 pm

Jason, you say: "Redfern has claimed in various online postings that he has declassified documents to support his version of events, but he has never quoted from or provided these, so far as I can tell."

Correct. But, there's nothing suspicious about that. As I mentioned in the reply to Terry the Censor, I am working on a book on the MK/UFO angle called "Tripping The Flight Fantastic."

I want the book to have some interesting scoops in it and not just "seen it before" documents. It's really that simple.

Reply
Time Machine
3/12/2016 12:14:31 am

You said it -- "simple"

Perhaps you can work on a book giving an anthology of UFO sightings by crews in the Space Stations.

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 12:18:57 am

Perhaps you could have the guts to use your real name instead of hiding behind a stupid fucking alias? Hmmmm?

Time Machine
3/12/2016 12:23:02 am

That's avoiding the answer to the question

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 12:24:11 am

But it's much more satisfying - for me anyway

Time Machine
3/12/2016 12:27:42 am

There would never be any material for such a book because no crews have ever witnessed any UFOs in Space Stations,

To find the fact about UFOs and Flying Saucers you don't look at the skies, but at the people making the claims.

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 12:31:10 am

I have no idea what your point is, and I fucking care even less.

Time Machine
3/12/2016 12:32:55 am

The point is that demonstrable proof is required. And no proof has appeared since 1947.

John
3/12/2016 12:17:53 am

I know this is off topic, and I apologize for it, but I thought I just found something interesting on Scott Wolter’s “Kensington Rune Stone Deception Disguised as ‘Scholarship’“ blog post. If one scrolls down to the reply on February 12, at 12:47 pm you will see the following post:


“Scott Wolter February 12, 2016 at 12:47 PM

I have known Scott Wolter for a long time, as well as dealt with Dr. Henrik Williams over a period of time in the recent past. Quite frankly, in an email that was sent to me concerning his email sent to you back in November about Scott's appearance at your wonderful university, I was shocked by his tone, his accusations and his unprofessional attitude towards Scott Wolter.



Dr. William's objections to Scott Wolter's appearance reminds me of those who back in the 1500's were using strong arm tactics, to put it mildly, against those who dare believe that the earth was round just because 
these individuals had a different theory about such a possibility. Even though Dr. Williams is a renown runologist in Sweden and more than likely in Europe, too, he has now decided to condemn Scott's research in a 
venomous way, especially his research on the Kensington Rune Stone, who with his own research alongside that of Scott's at the time, helped prove that this stone was indeed a real Medieval artifact. However, now he is withdrawing his support or having second thoughts for unknown personal reasons and even denying that he even helped to prove that this stone was indeed real and authentic.



In recent weeks, my own research has given Scott more and more valuable information that is helping him to prove his theories about the validity of the "Hooked X", as having been in use from at least the time period after the death of Jesus right up through the present time, evidenced on 
the Talpiot Tomb Lid on Jesus' tomb. Also, having looked through 100's of documents at the (www.handrit.is) website, which is an Icelandic website, we located several Hooked X's, a few of which were used for the letter "a", proving once again of its use well into the mid 17-18th centuries in different alphabets. We also located 120 instances where the letter X was used for or substituted for the letter "a", as well in our research. I can guarantee that more exciting information will be coming out through Scott's research over these new discoveries found in those Icelandic runic manuscripts in the coming weeks.



As one might remember, the discovery of the Larsson Papers several years ago dating to 1883 or so, showed the use of the "Hooked X" as the letter "a" in this one alphabet or cipher. Of course, part of Dr. William's criticism of Wolter's theory on the Hooked X has been that it has not 
been found nor was it ever used prior to 1883 and that no letter "X" has been used for the letter "a" anywhere in history from Medieval times throughout the 19th century. However, I have found several instances of this Hooked X being used prior to 1883, thereby dismissing his accusations completely in the hundreds of Icelandic manuscripts that were studied.



My only hope is that if you ever have any doubts about ever inviting Scott back to speak at your university in the near future, please know that the free expression of ideas, theories and research help to stimulate the minds of those who are so ever curious. To deny such a speaker on the grounds because of opponents, like Dr. Williams, who want to be politically correct here or because some of the same researchers again, like Dr. Williams, who do not like Scott's methods of research or his work itself, would be taking all of us back to the Dark Ages. I know for a certainty that Scott Wolter would never stoop to such an 
unprofessional level in writing to you if you ever decided to have Dr. Williams talk at your university just because he disagreed with another researcher over their own research. In fact, knowing Scott as I do, he would always be willing to discuss his differences in a professional way with such a person, always taking the high road in all things pertaining to history and its discoveries.



Steve DiMarzo Jr.”


Now at first I thought, like any body would, that it was a normal post. I then made the observation that it was signed “Steve DiMarzo Jr” even though it was posted by Wolter’s profile account. Knowing the way Scott Wolter acts, I thought that he was posting an email he recieved from Steve DiMarzo Jr. and that he was trying to make a “point” about something. However I then noticed the reply to it which was also posted by Wolter’s profile account which said the following:


“Scott Wolter February 12, 2016 at 1:05 PM


Steve,

I appreciate your supportive comments and the examples of the unprofessional conduct of Professor Williams who apparently thinks he

Reply
Time Machine
3/12/2016 12:20:35 am

>>>against those who dare believe that the earth was round<<<

People went on to believe the facts.
Will Scott Wolter go on to believe the facts?

Reply
John
3/12/2016 12:22:26 am

“Scott Wolter February 12, 2016 at 1:05 PM


Steve,

I appreciate your supportive comments and the examples of the unprofessional conduct of Professor Williams who apparently thinks he can control what American Universities can and can't do from Sweden. 



What I think is getting lost in all this is what is the most disturbing aspect in this sad affair. We can't forget that Williams and Nielsen have made these fraudulent claims based on a 3D imaging study they obtained through deceptive means, and then refused to let anybody else see for the past seven years. Supporters like "Joe" rail on and on about "academic peer review" yet say nothing about the academic criminal behavior of these two who claim to be scholars.



One of my research colleagues, Jerry Lutgen, called Dick Nielsen this summer and asked him point blank if he could review the 3D imaging data and Nielsen refused to grant him access. To me, this fact represents the most egregious example of their outrageous unethical behavior.”

Now I don’t know if this is the case, (I could be dead wrong here) but is it me, or did Wolter just reply to a post he made up on the spot, in which he just pretended to be Steve DiMarzo Jr., as a way of trying to make his point against Professor Henrik Williams? Because if that is the case, then Wolter really is as stupid as we believed he was, as he just forgot to sign out of his account to pose as Steve DiMarzo and was so lazy, that he couldn't even bother to check himself. I also thought of the possibility that he let DiMarzo sign into his account to make that post, but then I realized just how stupid that idea was since I wouldn’t think Wolter would allow someone to do that.

Heres the link to the blog entry, so others can check for themselves (if these replies are even still there at all — I screen capped them just in case they aren’t there anymore):

http://scottwolteranswers.blogspot.com/2016/02/kensington-rune-stone-deception.html


Am I crazy for thinking this?

Reply
anon
3/12/2016 10:24:03 am

The language is definitely terrestrial.....

Reply
Mark link
3/12/2016 10:40:25 am

I see that Redfern is reading the comments here. I have a question for you, Mr. Redfern: why haven't you ever scanned and posted the 1998 Collins Elite manifesto online?

In your book _Final Events and the Secret Government Group on Demonic UFOs and the Afterlife_, you claim to have a copy of a length manifesto by the "Collins Elite" from 1998. You provide a scan of one page as evidence. I can understand why it wouldn't fit in the book, but in these days of scribd and dropbox, why haven't you put the whole thing online? If it's real, then as a purely historical artifact, it's quite interesting, whether one believes in UFOs or not - not to mention being rather critical evidence for your thesis in that book. So why haven't you made the whole thing available?

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 10:59:05 am

I read Jason's blog and the comments every day. I may well post it - one day. The primary reason for not posting relates not the content or the document itself, but to the source who provided it. There's a great deal more to the story that was cut from the original manuscript when the book went to the editing stage. Much of it is not that interesting, as it's reliant on data extracted directly from books by people such as Keel, and others who felt the ETH wasn't valid.

Reply
Mark link
3/12/2016 11:06:20 am

Could you post a redacted version?

I can believe in the existence of the Collins Elite, even though I don't believe in UFOs. It's something I can imagine our government doing. But I just don't see much _evidence_ for it aside from that one document. Interviews with people whose names can't be given don't count as evidence. Most of the other documents in that book, I've been able to track down as stuff that's available through FoIA, so they don't really bolster the case for the existence of the Collins Elite. That manifesto is the one really significant piece of evidence for it.

If you can't post it, well, I'm disappointed, but I understand. But I hope you'll also understand when I say that means I can't take the thesis of the book very seriously.

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 11:11:28 am

Mark: Yeah, I do get what you're saying as it is a part of the story. When I mentioned the fact that my reason for not posting only extracts from it was because of the source, it basically comes down to a legal contract that the source had drawn up (for the publisher), in which I agreed to make use of only the specific parts referenced in the contract. Contracts can be tricky things when they have binding clauses in them. But admittedly, I'm not sure what could be done if I did post it, as any action would only draw attention to the source, which - I know with 100 percent certainty - they don't want.

Reply
Mark link
3/12/2016 11:23:42 am

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't comment on that. But, legalities aside, would this source be willing to let you publish the whole thing online? Can you ask? I'm sorry for being so persistent about this, but I genuinely want to see this thing, out of perverse curiosity if nothing else.

And I would think that mainstream historians would be interested in this - yes, UFOs are a fringey subject, but we know that parts of the government have been interested in fringey stuff in the past, and it's not like you're claiming the Collins Elite is a Majestic-12-style super-conspiracy responsible for everything ever, so it's not implausible that something like it could exist. But without real evidence for it...

Reply
Time Machine
3/12/2016 11:26:40 am

>>> government have been interested in fringey stuff in the past<<<

Some trust in governments...

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 11:34:14 am

Yeah, sure that's no problem, as I still have their contact info.

Time Machine
3/12/2016 11:37:20 am

>>> the Collins Elite<<<

More fantasy rubbish

Mark link
3/12/2016 11:37:23 am

Thanks.

Time Machine
3/12/2016 11:38:29 am

That'll be the day, when someone produces anything tangible in relation to flying saucers.

Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 11:49:32 am

Time Machine: There's nothing fantasy about the Collins Elite - it's not as some have claimed, a secret government group on UFOs. It's a like-minded bunch of people in the official world who think the UFO phenomenon is demonic. In that sense, they are an ad hoc kind of think-tank that relied to a significant degree (as I point out in the book) on open sources, such as books and magazine articles etc. If it was a hoax or disinfo, I think those behind it would have presented it as a kind of huge, super-secret "MJ12" group, which was actually far from the group being actually just a bunch of peopin Govt discussing the demon theory. Several people in Ufology have confirmed the existence of the group. I recommend you search on people who have addressed or commented on a potential UFO "deception" as it relates to the demonic group and you will soon get a good idea of who they are, and I recommend you then contact them. As for me, I still don't buy into their theories (as I pointed out early in my book on them) that this is a literally demonic phenomenon, as they saw it.

Reply
Time Machine
3/12/2016 03:55:27 pm

This sounds very much like a development of fringe theology.

If there is some document that you haven't published but are only willing to write about, it resembles those who discussed the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls for decades before the translations were finally published and people finally got to know about the details for themselves.

Reply
Nick Redfern
3/12/2016 04:40:08 pm

It has nothing to do with being "only willing to write about." As I pointed out, there's a binding contract about how much the publisher (Anomalist Books) could use. But, as I said to Mark, 6 years after the book was published, things might be different. Most of the document is very underwhelming, paraphrasing Keel and numerous open source material you can pick up at Amazon , and others who came to believe the UFO phenomenon was deceptive and not what it appears to be.

Reply
Time Machine
3/13/2016 07:21:18 am

Whatever --- it's meaningless
There are no flying saucers
There are no demons

Reply
Time Machine
3/13/2016 07:49:40 am

This falls into the category of cryptohistory.

anon
3/13/2016 09:16:23 am

A few bits of tin foil from Area 51 - that's about all there is to show after decades of visitations ?

And why would they be saucer shaped or shaped like cigars ?

Come on, it's nonsense.

Reply
anoon
3/13/2016 09:23:04 am

What about th9ose Pixies songs?

"With lyrics as “Motorway to Roswell“ and “Men In Black“, Frank (as he like to be called) has managed to find a corner all of his own in the musical-circus. What was it then that triggered this interest in UFOs?

- Well, if your really wanna know...I think the moment when I, at least subcounsciously, became interested in this..And I do wanna say that I’m not obsessed about it but I do allowe it to come up in the songs that I do...when I was about 18 or 19 years old my mother, who has absolutely no interest in this subject (UFOs) and not even anything close to it, very casualy described to me a large UFO, or a ”ship”..she described it as a ship, or a classic saucer, that hovered over the house we were at in 1965, in Nebraska. This was in broad daylight. There was many witnesses, there were many familymembers there, and they all came outside to the yard to observe the ship over the house, silent. They were all frightened and she even said to me: ”we thought it was the end of the world!” They called the police and a policeman came out to the house..the man later became my stepfather...And they got into the car as the ship has started to move slowly, and they followed it with the car as I gradualy moved faster and faster until they couldn’t keep up with it.
- Anyway, I was so shocked by this story...

Wasn’t you concerned why your mother wasn’t interested in this as she has seen this thing up close?
- Exactly! But you know, she’s a very religious person and has, as far as I know, absolutely no interest in this subject-matter. And I had never heard it being discussed in my house, and I never heard it being discussed again.
- Anyway...there’s another incident with a ship when I was 5. I was playing in the yard with my brother and a metallic-type of rocket..I was thinking about it like some kind of missile...
Like a cigarr-shaped craft?
- Yeah, exactly! It flew over the yard where we were playing and it was completely silent. And for some reason my brother and I just looked at it as it went over the house. We didn’t discuss it afterwards. And it made an impression on me, deep inside me...I mean, we were so young! We just went back to play.
- Now I’ve kept this memory with me for my whole life and I have never discussed it with my brother. And in my own mind I had invalidated it as an incident. I assumed I probably saw a military-plane fly over me...you know, I didn’t see a rocketship or cigarr-shaped missile or anything like that. And that’s what I’ve been telling myself for all these years. But for some reason...off all the airplanes I’ve seen flying over my head, the only incident I think about is from when I was so young!

- And last year my brother and I got in a discussion about UFOs, in a very casual conversation, when he said: ”You remember that thing we saw in the backyard when we were 4 and 5?”, ”The silver-rocket that flew over us and made no noise!” And I didn’t even think he had any memory of it at all! We had never discussed this in 25 years and then he can describe more details about it than I do. I don’t know if we saw a UFO or not, but for some reason this very...low key...memory of it has stayed with me and him, and I can’t help but think that there’s something odd about it. I mean, I can’t remember any other airplane that I’ve seen... Those two are my true incidents and I have had no other since then."

ooOOooo.....


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      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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