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Viking Women, Archaeology, and the Value of Literary Sources

1/11/2019

82 Comments

 
​For a show that almost literally no one watched—averaging only around 500,000 viewers across its four-episode run, fewer than syndicated reruns of off-network sitcoms—Megan Fox’s Legends of the Lost has inspired a lot of discussion and upset online, particularly around the question of Viking women warriors. Frankly, I find this to be the least interesting “mystery” on Fox’s show, but it raises a fascinating question about archaeological vs. historical knowledge and how an idea does or does not become a consensus concept in the creation of our story of the past.
​The proximate cause of this post is a recent Twitter thread by bioarchaeologist Dr. Cat Jarman, who appeared on Legends and defended her appearance, arguing that the program offered facts about Viking life not otherwise seen on TV, which forgives the mystical and New Age claptrap used to sensationalize those facts. 

A little late to the party, but here are some thoughts on the #LegendsOfTheLost Viking warrior women episode with Megan Fox: I took part in this and after seeing it, don't regret participating for a second. 1/7 pic.twitter.com/Uzhxma3GU3

— Dr Cat Jarman □ (@CatJarman) January 10, 2019
​She did not comment on later episodes advocating claims that Native Americans are non-human hybrids or that a comet destroyed an Atlantis-like civilization or that Stonehenge has magic powers—all presumably forgivable because the show contained 15 minutes of facts amidst the extremist claptrap.
 
In her thread, Jarman said that critics (such as me) were wrong to suggest that the existence of Viking women warriors is “accepted” by scholars. “Simply not true,” she says. Here, though, is where the interesting problem comes in to play. My concern wasn’t as much for current scholarly consensus as the claim the show made that the idea of Viking women warriors is “new.” As I pointed out, in the 1800s through to the middle twentieth century, the claim was frequent, if not universal, in history books and received lengthy treatment in at least one major scholarly study of Viking life. The claim therefore is not “new” in any real sense—being in print for a century.
 
Today, revisionists use the same evidence, supplemented by new archaeological findings, to reach the same conclusions. So why was this knowledge “forgotten”?
 
Here we come to a crossroads in the question of how to interpret the past. For many archaeologists, the prewar scholarship on Viking women is of dubious value because it relies on textual evidence, much of it relatively late, which cannot be taken at face value. Reliance on Norse mythology, Icelandic sagas, runic inscriptions, and historical reports from non-Viking peoples formed the basis of nineteenth and early twentieth century views of women in Viking culture. Indeed, when the feminist scholar Mary Wilhelmine Williams wrote a chapter on Viking women in her 1920 book on medieval Scandinavian life, her evidence came primarily from these categories of data, namely the sagas and also references to medieval laws and customs. Prof. Harold Williams, who defended Fox and challenged by evaluation of her show, considers this evidence to be, basically, “pseudohistory,” as he told me on Twitter yesterday. For him, and for Jarman and others, archaeological evidence is of much greater importance.
 
But what remains interesting is that modern studies of Viking women still rely on the same evidence that Mary Wilhelmine Williams gathered in 1920. For example, Judith Jesch’s 1991 book Women in the Viking Age, the first major full-length study of the subject in the postwar era, devoted one chapter to archaeological evidence, another to runic inscriptions, and six chapters to medieval documents, myths, legends, and sagas. Jesch, of course, recognized that medieval texts cannot be taken literally, but like Williams before her, she understood that cultural information is embedded such accounts even if they are not literally true. She also hit upon a very important fact in the changing relationship between history and archaeology. She noted that the sagas and other medieval texts were long believed to be based on genuine history but in the middle twentieth century had come to be seen as fantasies, a point she did not fully challenge even while mining the sagas for cultural data.
 
This change in perception is something we have previously encountered in the case of the Viking colonization of North America. Similarly, the sagas were long believed to record genuine accounts of Viking excursions to Vinland, somewhere along the Canadian or New England coast, and as such were accepted as evidence of a Viking presence in North America down to the war years. Consult school textbooks from the era, and you will see how widespread this acceptance was, even with caveats about the challenges of accepting poems as sources. But with the changing attitude toward the use of literary sources in writing history in the postwar years, scholars came to doubt the accounts—until the unearthing of a Norse site at L’Anse aux Meadows proved that the sagas (and non-saga accounts like that of Adam of Bremen) reflected a historical reality.
 
And yet, each time archaeology confirms a literary account, the literary account is retroactively promoted back to evidence in support of the archaeology.
 
Something similar happened with Greek mythology. For a long time, Greek myths were taken to be accurate reflections of life in the Heroic Age, or what we would call the Bronze Age, and the Trojan War (the subject of another of Fox’s shows) was routinely included as a historical event. But then the authority of these old histories collapsed with the expansion of archaeological knowledge, and the myths were largely dismissed as so many stories, only vaguely connected to real events and people. Then, Martin Nilsson reevaluated the oldest data in Greek myths in his Mycenaean Origins of Greek Mythology (1932) and was able to demonstrate that, irrespective of whether the myths recorded literal truths about Bronze Age battles, they accurately recorded the Mycenaean geographic landscape, to the point that he could use mentions of places in myths and legends to predict the location of heretofore unexcavated Mycenaean palace sites.
 
The decipherment of the hieroglyphs proved that Manetho’s account of the kings of Egypt—and not the romantic chronologies and histories told by Herodotus or the medieval Arab historians—was largely correct. In the same vein, the discovery of the Ugarit tablets demonstrated that Sanchuniathon’s account of Phoenician mythology was, as early scholars believed and later ones doubted, an accurate, if Hellenized, account of otherwise undocumented Phoenician mythological beliefs.
 
The trouble, of course, is that for every example like these, we have to contrast them with widespread acceptance of Biblical history, where myths, legends, and stories from the Bible have been treated as true, even in the face of a lack of archaeological evidence for them. Biblical narratives appear in many nineteenth and early twentieth century texts as incontrovertible truths, and even in the modern era, they still frequently receive deferential treatment, particularly in popular histories. Somewhat similarly, many books casually repeat sensational stories from Greek and Roman historians, and also the medieval Arab historians, even when there is no evidence that these accounts are actually true.
 
It’s certainly the case that the use of textual evidence is problematic, but no more so—and probably less so—than the use of oral histories, which have changed much more than medieval texts over the centuries. The Victorians and their successors were often led astray by an overreliance on textual sources without archaeology to back them up. In the 1830s, Carl Rafn, for example, was so taken with his insight that the sagas recorded a voyage to North America that he over-interpreted colonial and Native American archaeological sites as Norse to support his (mostly correct) conclusions from the literary evidence. On the other hand, when the literary evidence that Biblical narrative of the Flood was likely not the original version of the story was in plain sight, recorded in the fragments of the Babylonian priest Berossus, Western scholars refused to believe it, claiming Berossus copied from God’s Truth, until archaeology uncovered incontrovertibly old copies of Mesopotamian Flood stories from Iraqi ruins.
 
Choosing what texts to give credence tends to follow popular beliefs and prejudices. Thus, an early twentieth-century feminist would read the Icelandic sagas and runic inscriptions and see evidence of female empowerment, but most men demanded physical proof. Victorian free-thinkers were happy to see Berossus as proof of a pre-Biblical Flood story, but the era’s Christians demanded ancient tablets to demonstrate the existence of the story at an early date.
 
It’s not that the scholars who relied on medieval texts were wrong, sloppy, or practicing pseudoscience, per se. They were doing the best historiography they could, and many had exceptional insights that took generations to prove. The trouble is how to distinguish between the good conclusions and the bad ones, the right interpretations of texts and the wrong. Here is where archaeology is essential to inform historiography.
 
This, I think, is the root of the split between my concern over whether a claim had been previously known and my critics’ concern over whether modern scholars have achieved a consensus that the claim is true.
82 Comments
Joe Scales
1/11/2019 10:07:33 am

Jesus Christ Jason... the archaeological evidence is certainly new. Get over yourself. Rather than continue to spin this in a most mind-numbing pedantic manner, why don't you simply listen to the experts and realize you went too far with this one. Yeah, we all hate what The History Channel is doing in an overall sense, but when you ignore qualified academics and dig your heels in, you're doing exactly what those of the Fringe do when they press their beliefs over those more qualified.

Reply
Brian
1/11/2019 10:50:15 am

I think this was a very good analysis of how the terms people are using, often to attack each other, need to be clarified. Certainly the idea of women Viking warriors isn't new - it's as old as the Nibelungenlied. Archaeological evidence backing it up is more recent, but it should be made clear that the physical evidence is what's being called new, not the notion. But when everything has to be turned into a 10-second soundbite or a tweet, flush goes clear speaking and thinking.

The pendulum-swing between what's considered valid evidence is fascinating and should be acknowledged, so that argumentation doesn't devolve into emotional personal attacks.

Reply
EAGLE FEATHER
1/11/2019 11:08:17 am

Thank you, thank you, thank you... !!

Phoenician mythology is real Greek mythology. If you were to spend a month reading with insight what was made available by Mr. Colavito, you could apply ever act in world history to it and discover what history has been lost due to conquerors. It fully covers how an oversized Greek can go to Egypt, and breed, to create an individual that can emulate the Template of a god. Hint: 'Templar Cult'

The Greek populations that went to Egypt then went to Rome & Carthage when released. The (mitochondrial Egyptians) who were black female-white male went to Rome. The (mitochondrial Greeks) who were white female-black male went to Carthage.

The two mixed back and forth as needed, Asgaard was created when an equal ratio of god was created (Hellenistic). Romans seeing their inferiority to the Greek gods reborn rebelled with their superior numbers. Carthage fell in the Punic Wars.

The process continued in America by survivors, with the offspring eventually returning to Europe as Scandinavians. With all things... a copy of a copy of a copy. An ongoing battle with the Hydra. One god per versus multi-headed Roman sects. 791 AD: the final battle for those who fled to America, given they were losing the battle of numbers again. The Battle of Uppsala Sound. It's written in all the books of mythology.

FYI: There is a Norse Saga dedicated to a battle in Brazil just in case you would like to research what a 'Saga' actually is! It is a long voyage, not a hop-skip-or jump. That was Easter Island.

Keep this thread going, you lurn-ned people might actually learn something...

Reply
EAGLE FEATHER
1/11/2019 03:21:53 pm

Norse Saga -

1. Denmark
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Odin's Den (L'Anse Aux Meadows)
5. Roanoke Island
6. Cuba
7. Antilles Islands
8. Trinidad
9. Brazil
10. Mesoamerica
11. Midgaard Serpent (Mississippi River)
12. Return to Scandinavia

A king burned at sea. A queen returned to the son.

The Religion of Thor

Reply
Kent
6/9/2020 05:32:35 pm

"FYI: There is a Norse Saga dedicated to a battle in Brazil just in case you would like to research what a 'Saga' actually is! It is a long voyage, not a hop-skip-or jump. That was Easter Island.

Keep this thread going, you lurn-ned people might actually learn something..."

Uh, yeah, no. Brazil is on the eastern side of South America. Easter Island is quite far off the western side of South America.

You might actually learn something.

Reply
EAGLE FEATHER
6/10/2020 08:52:43 pm

Uh, duh... Brazil was the hop, then you skip to the west coast of South America, then jump to Easter Island... you ninny.

It's actually hop, skip, jump to get to Brazil in the original legorium. Then the next Era replicated the scenario to the West to get to Easter Island and beyond...

So many people, so little knowledge. May the Bird of Paradise be lying on its side facing East, with Florida as its Talon. Then we can have one interpretation matched against another interpretation, so that we can say nothing.

Accumulated Wisdom
1/11/2019 12:00:58 pm

Where I come from, the Norse Sagas were treated as inferior to all other "mythologies". There was no trouble finding academics with the opinion of Norse colonization of America. The obstacle was money. When I asked, Why no one was trying to prove it definitively, I was told, "Because there is no money in it".

This applies to the Newport Tower. Everything, I have been able to gather, leads back to King Haakon of Norway. If you believe the Sinclair Journals, I do not, they still lead back to the same dude. Albeit through a different intermediary.

From what I can tell, other than the origins of the Newport Tower, and higher levels to various stories/Myths, I agree with most folks posting here. I certainly appreciate learning of Sagas, I didn't know about before.

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Newport Tower
1/11/2019 12:04:42 pm

The Newport Tower is the remains of a windmill.
The person who built that windmill exists on historical file.

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Accumulated Wisdom
1/11/2019 12:06:39 pm

It took you less than 4 minitues, to respond.

Bravo!

EAGLE FEATHER
1/11/2019 01:43:55 pm

Kudos to you ACCUMULATED WISDOM...

Mythology is the template, Sagas are the police actions that continue the mythology forward in a precise order.

1. Greek-God names represent the families which topple each other in a precise order.
2. Egyptian-God names represent the provinces which topple each other in a precise order.
3. Roman-God names represent the countries which topple each other in a precise order.
4. Norse-new gods in America (Mar) to represent the provinces which topple each other in a precise order.

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EAGLE FEATHER
1/11/2019 01:48:01 pm

5. English-Round Table represents the same circle that follows a precise order.

American cool "disco" dan
1/11/2019 03:26:05 pm

Priceless Defender/Anthony Warren and Eagle Feather: Where are you institutionalized? You do talk some bumbaclottery. Sad.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/11/2019 04:00:07 pm

Sucks to be 2nd best doesn't it? Going down...

T. Franke link
1/11/2019 12:34:02 pm

My Summary:

The modern scholar Harold Williams considers the research work of the 1920 scholar Mary Wilhelmine Williams as "pseudo-science" simply because the 1920s standards of science do not fit to his modern-day standards of science.

Did I get this right?

Then, this is just the same case as with modern judgements about most Atlantis searchers previous to a certain point in time (somewhen in the 19th century before Donnelly). These Atlantis searchers of previous times were mostly not at all nuts and only rarely pseudo-scientists, but thought and worked according to the scientific standards of their time.

Please consider: The decipherment of Hieroglyphs happened only in the 19th century. The sea-floor had been explored only late in the 19th century. etc. etc. This is rarely considered when discussing the history of Atlantis research. The pseudo-scientific part of Atlantis research is a quite recent phenomenon. (This is one of the theses of my book which is available only in German.)

Important lesson:

What had been science once upon a time, can be pseudo-science some time later. Many modern pseudo-scientific hypotheses are simply based on outdated scientific theories. They just ignore that better methods and better knowledge had been achieved over time.

PS: I would prefer to call Herodotus' mistakes rather "distorted" than "romantic". Even for the distortions of Herodotus' Egyptian chronology, there are understandable reasons and an academic discussions about them.

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Atlantis
1/11/2019 01:33:55 pm

Not that 9,000 year gap between the destruction of Atlantis and its [apparent] first mention by Critias again...

Boring..
Yawn...

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T. Franke link
1/11/2019 04:35:47 pm

Note the 11,000 years since the alleged foundation of Egypt and the real date of 3000 BC. Wrong in Herodotus, wrong in Plato's Laws, wrong in Diodorus, etc. etc. etc.

You still want to take all this literally?

Boring ...
Yawn ...

ATLANTIS
1/11/2019 04:45:14 pm

The narrative of Atlantis is cradled within Plato's Republic
The further away in time that Atlantis existed beyond verification and placed in someone else's mouth the better.

Boring...
Yawn..,

T. Franke link
1/11/2019 06:41:53 pm

Atlantis was not put far, far away, neither in time nor in space. The place (in front of the Pillars of Hercules) was well-known to the Greeks, at least they thought so, because they believed in the mud there, and also the time was believed to be true, the record written from Egypt. Plato found traces of primeval Athens - or at least, he believed it. And some time later, Crantor believed to have found stelai with the story in Egypt.

For a fairy tale, once upon a time, in a far far away country, this is not the perfect match. Even scholars in our time started to realize this.

And again: What should we think of a scholar who puts forward a theory, which makes certain predictions (e.g. the ideal state existed in the past as said in the Republic), and then he INVENTS what was predicted? Plato the most evil-minded, crazy person?

And again: Why interpeting a date about / from Egypt completely different than in all other cases in Greek literature? Ever heard of Occam's razor?

Conclusion: The odds for an invented Atlantis are almost as bad as the odds for a literal existence of Atlantis. There is a third way which is the USUAL way with ancient texts: Distortions.

T. Franke link
1/11/2019 06:44:24 pm

And by the way .... we are talking about the phenomenon of real science becoming pseudo-science after some time. This is the topic of this article, and it is the topic of my first comment.

If you cannot contribute to that, please keep silent.

Atlantis
1/11/2019 06:56:33 pm

Contribution ??
Oh no....

Boring....

ATLANTIS
1/11/2019 07:02:01 pm

To Francis Bacon, the pillars of Hercules denoted the intellect and the limits of knowledge, represented by geographic symbolism. Even Bacon, centuries ago, understood Plato's real description of Atlantis.


American cool "Disco" Dan
1/11/2019 07:31:51 pm

"And by the way .... we are talking about the phenomenon of real science becoming pseudo-science after some time. This is the topic of this article, and it is the topic of my first comment.

If you cannot contribute to that, please keep silent."

Alternatively you could silently go fuck yourself. Not a sermon, just a thought.


T. Franke link
1/11/2019 11:22:28 pm

Sir Francis Bacon believed in America as Atlantis, and which exactly is the wording of his alleged interpretation of the Pillars of Hercules exclusively as allegory?

ATLANTIS
1/12/2019 06:39:40 am

It's obvious that you have not read Bacon, Mr Atlantis Obsession.

T. Franke link
1/12/2019 09:32:09 am

You do not put forward source text in order to support your claims?

Boring.

Because you have no source text to show in support of your ludicrous claims.

What Francis Bacon writes in his "New Atlantis" about the "old" Atlantis may look fabulous to modern eyes, yet it generally reflects ideas and theories existing in his time, with some embellishments. Purely fictional is his "new" Atlantis.

Please note also, that many authors considered the American Indidans to be on equal foot with Europeans because of their civilizatory achievements, maybe Atlantis, whereas considering the words of Francis Bacon as completely and exclusively "fabulous" is clearly in danger to show an arrogant attitude. Arrogant not only towards the times of Francis Bacon and what they could know (or not know) about the world, and arrogant also towards the American Indians.

Citations:

"... the great Atlantis, (that you call America,) ..."

"yet so much is true, that the said country of Atlantis, as well that of Peru, then called Coya, as that of Mexico, then named Tyrambel, were mighty and proud kingdoms in arms, shipping and riches: so mighty, as at one time (or at least within the space of ten years) they both made two great expeditions; they of Tyrambel through the Atlantic to the Mediterrane Sea; and they of Coya through the South Sea upon this our island: and for the former of these, which was into Europe, the same author amongst you (as it seemeth) had some relation from the Egyptian priest whom he cited. "

"At that time, this land was known and frequented by the ships and vessels of all the nations before named. ... And for our own ships, they went sundry voyages, as well to your straits, which you call the Pillars of Hercules, as to other parts in the Atlantic and Mediterrane Seas"

And where is the citation that the Pillars of Hercules are meant as mere symbols of the limits of human knowledge? There is none. At least not in this book, where it is about the "old" and the "new" Atlantis.

Summary:

You are a boring dialogue participant. You can offer only illusions, and no substantial arguments.

Doc Rock
1/11/2019 01:08:48 pm

There is a difference between documenting that the occasional woman served as a warrior and documenting that women comprised a significant number of Viking warriors at any given time. What constitutes a warrior is another matter. If a woman dons a little armor and stands next to hubby as he directs the sack of an Irish monastery does that make her a warrior?

A lot of debate might be avoided if people were a lot more clear in defining exactly what is being studied.


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PNO TECH
1/11/2019 05:33:52 pm

And history is messy-blanket statements are way simplistic. Freydis, half-sister ( albeit illegitimate ) of Liet Ericsson certainly knew how to wield a sword...but she later was soundly scolded for doing so. Is <she> a warrior?
Also, 'viking' is( was ) a verb: Vikingrs were those who went, uh, a-viking.
At least I have some interesting reading for tomorrow's expected snow now.

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John Paul
1/11/2019 03:15:06 pm

I get no kick on a plane, mere alcohol doesn't thrill me at all. However, I like to let farts in crowded elevators.

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Doc Rock
1/11/2019 03:21:48 pm

Kinky Friedman fan?

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An Anonymous Nerd
1/12/2019 12:42:44 am

The comments for this article are pretty disappointing, overall. Apologies to the exceptions. The replies began with a string of insults that were in equal parts cringey and fringey (how dare Mr. Colavito defend his research methods!!!), and then from there descended through a veritable all-you-can-stomach Fringe buffet, bearing little relationship to Mr. Colavito's original article.

Again, apologies to the exceptions.

As to the actual subject of the article....What we're seeing here is the general resistance by Anthropology and Archaeology to the idea that other scholars, employing other research methods and working in other fields, could have anything to offer to the subjects they want to write about.

I will offer three examples.

Example One is...See above. Mr. Colavito's article. Archaeologists dig up some graves and find further evidence to what's been discussed for decades. Instead of saying "look at this new evidence that sheds light on a decades-long discussion" they proclaim it to be totally new and grasp onto a Fringe figure who says something similar. "Never-you-mind the damage that the Fringe has done to our field. The Fringe says totally new and we concur with that!"

Example Two is a story I heard about a Political Scientist I know who attended an Anthropology conference accompanying a friend, and stumbled into a panel on....American voting behavior. The Anthropologists were in total ignorance of the fact that Political Scientists had covered similar territory for decades. And refused to believe it when it was pointed out to them. It was new, damn it. No one's studied American voting behavior before.

Example Three was discussed in the book "Breaking the Maya Code" by Michael Coe. Mr. Coe describes an Anthropology conference on the Maya that totally ignored the insights that could be gleaned from the fact that we now could translate their written language. Actually translating their texts, it seemed was simply too close to History for these folks. "Why think about what they wrote down when we can study their buildings and pottery intently, and make extrapolations."

Indeed the big new revelation to me is the frightening degree to which Anthropology/Archaeology is willing to ally itself with the Fringe when it suits its purposes of the moment. I have to say I was naive enough to not think about that. Shame on me, I guess. They seem to be ok with "other ways of knowing" as long as they aren't other academic fields!

-An Anonymous Nerd

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T. Franke link
1/12/2019 09:56:42 am

Academic science is often a very political event: It is a fight for money, influence and attention. They fight for their funding, or they feel themselves forerunners of certain political ideas they want to propagate in their field. It is often not what it should be. Fighting with words, just in order to convince.

Yet there is no alternative to academic scholarship. We need an institutionalized science organization.

Your examples can perfectly be confirmed when it comes to Plato's Atlantis: There is not one stable opinion about it in academia. Everyone has his own perspective and opinion: Archaeologists, philologists, philosophers, scholars in literary studies, geology, biology, history, Greek history, Egyptian history, etc.

And many try to abuse Plato's Atlantis as an example for their pet theory. My favourite are the researchers on oral tradition ... but the tradition of Plato's Atlantis is a written one. Written by the Egyptians. Written by Solon. Written by Plato. And Plato praises the advantages of a written tradition.

It is almost funny to read academic papers who consider the Atlantis story a main example of an oral tradition ... sometimes even an oral tradition in the Greek (!) culture, not in the Egyptian culture. And above all, an invented oral tradition. (Why ever anyone can think that an invented oral tradition could help in studying real oral tradition?!) Distorting and twisting the story so much without any understandable reasons comes close to pseudo-science.

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An Anonymous Nerd
1/12/2019 01:56:51 pm

[Academic science is often a very political event: It is a fight for money, influence and attention. They fight for their funding, or they feel themselves forerunners of certain political ideas they want to propagate in their field. It is often not what it should be. Fighting with words, just in order to convince.]

It is not as often "political" (in the broader, governmental sense that you seem to be implying) as people like to think. I've seen that label applied mostly to dismiss academic conclusions that, while accurate, are politically inconvenient.

It is, of course, political in the smaller sense: Like you say, squabbling over funding, influence, and attention,

[Your examples can perfectly be confirmed when it comes to Plato's Atlantis: There is not one stable opinion about it in academia.]

Not really. Actually that's a really bad example, and this is why.

There is only one opinion that matters in this context: The idea of a hyper-diffusionist ancient culture (the Atlantis of the Fringe) is a made-up, modern story. (I won't even call it a myth because that implies an ancient connection that isn't there for the Fringe Atlantis.) Fodder for comic books and cartoons.

There are disagreements over what the original Plato comments were inspired by, if anything. The closest thing you will get to the Fringe Atlantis in academia is the occasional person talking outside of his or her area who doesn't want to bother to do the necessary study to come up to snuff, and thusly falls for the Fringe.

-An Anonymous Nerd

T. Franke link
1/12/2019 02:37:53 pm

Science is political in both senses, and yes, more often in the "smaller" sense. Agreed.

But there is not only one, but at least three opinions that matter in that context:

a) The pseudo-scientific opinions.
b) The invention hypothesis.
c) The historical-critical approach.

My focus was on (b). Within the opinion, that Atlantis is basically an invention by Plato, there exist a lot of different opinions why it allegedly is an invention, and often contradictory to each other, sometimes obviously ridiculous. The alleged consensus (if you want to call it like that) consists only (!) in the claim itself, that Atlantis allegedly is an invention, and nothing else. But everything below the surface is in dispute. And this makes the "consensus" very weak.

Concerning (b): There always have been scholars who did not easily dismiss the possibility that Atlantis was no invention but a distorted historical tradition. You are welcome to my homepage to get to know more about this:
https://www.atlantis-scout.de/

Cite: "the occasional person talking outside of his or her area"

I am interested which area is the area of imporance, concerning Atlantis. Is it archaeology? But Plato's text is rather a matter of philology. On the other hand, it is all about philosophy. And then, is it more the Greek world (Greek archaeology, Greek philology, Greek philosophy), or do we have to include the Egyptian world, too?

IMHO there is not that single one area of academic research for the Atlantis problem. Only a combination can make it. And this makes the academic opinions on the subject very problematic, because every area speaks only for itself.

So to say, concerning Atlantis, there are only (!) "occasional persons talking outside of his or her area". Or whom would you consider to cover all needed areas?

EAGLE FEATHER
1/12/2019 02:43:53 pm

Why does everyone forget history here unless there is a book in front of them to reference.

1. Plato was quoted as saying 'Atlantis' was an existing state to restore the old republic, not a past historical state.

2. During the time of Egypt, people of the Mediterranean were mostly not aware of the Mesoamerican pyramids.

3. Duh, Atlantis was through the Pillars of Hercules. If you want to argue were the citadel was, argue where the citadel was. Don't bother saying it doesn't exist when the greatest treasure trove of evidence in world history will slap you in the face.

4. Giant pyramids proof. Underground cavern evidence proof which had to be dug over a couple millenias. Sagas, Codex, modern books and movies referencing mythologies and religious texts which outline the infrastructure of the world and of biology relating to races and ruling parties proof.

5. Source materials that deal with reality, not made up pseudo science books that outline deceptions to make money from keeping the public in the dark. Made up science is not evidence, quit quoting the benign unless you read the material as prescribed by the author.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/12/2019 03:16:48 pm

T. Franke-

It is really not my style to call out bloggers personally, but I looked at your website. You need a wake up call. When I started my research oh so long ago for a book I was writing, I dispelled almost everything you have in print.

It is a rehashing of other people's beliefs about what Plato said. It can be considered plagiarism because it was all said by other people who didn't know how to read. Words don't mean much when you read them literally when they were disguised with insight. People read the Bible to teach them insight. Then they go insane because they don't know what is real and what is not.

People then pray to a brick wall to avoid those that will prey on them. Those that use insight to make threats, to prevent the inept people running government from using laws to protect people of intellect from those who use educational class warfare.

Masters and slaves. That is why the Constitution was written. That is why not a single edict of the Constitution still stands. We live in an occupied country. That which spawns tales of alien invasions. That which sank Egypt, that which Atlantis was created to combat, that which sank Atlantis when religion crossed the waters to America.

Pyramid up-the natural world. Pyramid down-religious order. People today have half the intellect of people who reigned two thousand years ago. It is sad. To know what was, and to now know what is...

EAGLE FEATHER
1/12/2019 03:28:53 pm

On the bright side... you have a very cool first name!

Remember... It's a journey

T. Franke link
1/12/2019 05:52:39 pm

Eagle Feather,

My Web site of course presents a lot of researchers and what they thought about the subject, simply because they started to research on the same path as I do much earlier. This is not plagiarizing. This is building up a theory, and you start your own journey where others left off.

It is a journey over generations, you know?

I understand that you "dispelled almost everything" of the ideas of the historical-critical approach? Well, then you made a lot of wrong decisions and left the path of rationality. You should never leave the path of rationality. This does not correspond to the essence of your being.

Here is my, Thorwald's, wake up call for you:

You have to explain, why you think that Atlantis was still existing at Plato's time, when Plato explicitly said that Atlantis had been destroyed in a natural disaster a long time ago, and there had been only mud in front of Gibraltar (so the ancients thought).

You have to explain, why you think Plato wanted "to restore the old republic" with Atlantis, while Plato saw Atlantis as the opposite of what he wanted, as the "bad guy".

You have to explain, why you think of pyramids as "proof" in case of Atlantis, while pyramids and Atlantis are two totally unrelated subjects.

Eagle Feather is a nice name, too. The eagle is the heraldic animal of the Roman Republic, and has been handed down since then to all states who see themselves in the heritage of this great state, among them Germany and the US. It stands for rationality, the power of justice and order, and other nice things.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/12/2019 07:55:26 pm

T. Franke-

Most of your latest argument would be my response to your argument. The researchers you speak of, which you chose to continue the path of... do not reference Plato's work. Epochs will explain most of their differing opinions. Which if they were 'rational' and researched, they would be aware of those timelines.

1. Greece, prior to being named itself, was the only civilization in existence on this planet. And probably the universe if humans ever get to find out if life exists outside our realm. Scholars of the time estimated that it must have existed since 9000 BC by their calculations of evolution.

2. With the expansion of Greece, when it was named, the formation of competing provinces began. Greeks took on the task of creating people from those who were still evolving from the natural world. Treat these individuals as equals... and everyone devolves to 50 percent of what they were. Treat these individuals as subordinates... and over time, they will at least become a copy of a copy of a copy. Delicately put.

3. Greece fell... aka Atlantis fell. The hydra of Persian sects.

4. Egypt became a location to restore the old republic, and they did. People were enslaved, they were bred, then they were released under the terms of religion.

5. Greece fell again... aka Egypt fell. The hydra of religious sects.

6. Rome, prior to receiving the name, became New Greece.

7. Greece fell... aka Rome rose. Shrinking Greek populations (Viking-Mycennaean-Anglican types) vs the hydra of reborn thinner Greeks (Persian-Egyptian-Italian types) - 754 BC

8. Plato worked under occupational forces in Egypt. Plato told his students the secret of Atlantis, the reconstruction of the Old Republic in a land far far away. The Old Republic existed around the Baltic Sea after Carthage fell. In America, it existed within raiding parties, underground sects, northern tribes, etc.

9. Mud is a delicate reference to those who remained in any territory that breeds. Individuals that rise above the bar move to a new location, leaving those who are considered to be mud to tend to their vices. All kinds of biblical references can be entered here... Sodom, Gommorah... bla, bla

10. Plato's work doesn't even tell a story... it is blatant Insight to stoke an individual to think about everything and anything. My guess would be he is the father of the Templar Order. Everything he spoke of could be reduced to numbers and the expansion thereof.

Reading the comments on this blog reminds me of my childhood. Parents telling stories of the Bible like Disney writes cartoons. Read the Bible or source material, and the story is much different. Bloggers generally make a science out of the mythologies or cartoons, instead of applying the theory of science bestowed within the mythology to the historical records and surviving data. It is like being brow beaten by someone who thinks Bambi is a deer that can talk to Rabbits and Skunks.

The journey is to read the source material, not opinions of what was said in the source material. Applying the science of math to biology and coming to a logical conclusion. Then and only then can a person see the 'irrational conclusions' others make.

The expansion of world civilizations is held within DNA, people are now going out of their way to exterminate any DNA which does not support their political or religious viewpoints. Denial and skepticism is not science, it's murder and despotism.

T. Franke link
1/13/2019 05:46:58 am

Eagle Feather,

you did not engage in my arguments, and continued to put forward utter nonsense. That's it, then.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/13/2019 10:03:59 am

Uhmm, yeah I did...

1. Plato explicitly said to his pupils that Greece was destroyed a long time ago, that it had been around since the beginning of time, estimated to be around 9000 BC.

2. Plato explicitly said that the Atlantis found through the Pillars of Hercules, Rome & Carthage, would rebuild what was lost. Which Atlantis then fell in the same manner as before a bit later. It's like a freaky circle.

3. Scholars used the pyramids as sanctuary. To protect scholarly people, pyramids are built. This to avoid rebellions by barbaric forces or internal strife, a fortress including an escape route if ever attacked. Pyramids are the mind, the Old Republican Guard is of the body. Atlantis and the pyramids linked. The citadel of Greek Atlantis - Egyptian pyramids. The citadel of the mythological Atlantis - Mesoamerican pyramids.

It's pretty simple stuff. It's all in the history books. You just have to read them.

T. Franke link
1/13/2019 10:25:48 am

Eagle Feather, you did not.

And your ideas go contrary to what Plato said,
and contrary to any reasonable history writing.

=> You are feigning evidence, don't you?

Nowhere does Plato say, that Greece had been destroyed. Primeval Athens had been destroyed, not "Greece". -- Or where does he say it? Citations please!

Nowhere does Plato say that the beginning of time was 9000 BC. In the Laws, Plato talks of pictures in Egyptian tombs more than 10.000 years old. All the ancient Greeks thought of Egypt more than 11.000 years old. (Which is wrong, by the way) -- Or where does he say it? Citations please!

Nowhere does Plato say that Atlantis is Rome, or Carthage. -- Or where does he say it? Citations please!

Nowhere does Plato say that Atlantis would rebuild anything, because Atlantis had been completely and finally destroyed, according to Plato (whereas ancient Athens could recover after some millenia). -- Or where does he say it? Citations please!

Scholars used the pyramids as sanctuary? Utter nonsense.

Athens, Rome, Carthage as versions of "Atlantis"? Utter nonsense.

Ignoring the historical context, and taking the 9000 years literally? Utter nonsense.

Rome and Carhage, are by the way, within the Mediterranean, not beyond the Pillars of Hercules.

You still have not said why you think that Atlantis was not destroyed. You just omitted this question.

T. Franke link
1/13/2019 10:31:57 am

Eagle Feather,

you insist on the original source .... well, here it is! Just show me the citations of Plato which you feigned:

https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis-timaeus-critias-greek.htm

ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ εἷς, δύο, τρεῖς: ὁ δὲ δὴ τέταρτος ἡμῖν, ὦ φίλε Τίμαιε, ποῦ τῶν χθὲς μὲν δαιτυμόνων, τὰ νῦν δὲ ἑστιατόρων;

ΤΙΜΑΙΟΣ ἀσθένειά τις αὐτῷ συνέπεσεν, ὦ Σώκρατες: οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἑκὼν τῆσδε ἀπελείπετο τῆς συνουσίας.

ΣΩΚΡΑΤΗΣ οὐκοῦν σὸν τῶνδέ τε ἔργον καὶ τὸ ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀπόντος ἀναπληροῦν μέρος;

...
...

EAGLE FEATHER
1/13/2019 10:41:27 am

Rome and Carthage were the Pillars of Heracules.

The island of Sicily was Sampson with a 'p', the one who pulled down the pillars. Aka, Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus.

If you don't like to read...

There was this cool cartoon by Disney called Atlantis. They spelled the 'A' with the Greek letter 'lambda'. It looks just like a pyramid.

You need to contact the Templars... they tutored me.
Just like Aristotle tutored Alexander.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/13/2019 10:57:05 am

OK, I see the problem... T. Franke

I just read your source material.

You don't have Plato's manuscripts....!!

What you have is the theatrical play which is recited in the gallery amphitheatre. You might as well be reading Shakespeare.

T. Franke link
1/13/2019 11:37:21 am

Eagle Feathers,

ah, I see, you claim that you have special access to Plato's original manuscripts (really the discovery of the millenia, you will become famous and rich!), and that the Timaeus-Critias would be something totally different, not the real thing.

But you won't still give any citations! :-)

And note, that he put forward this very important, game-changing claim only after we exchanged several postings, which simply means that he enjoyed fooling me.

And you say that the Templars taught you.

And then you dwell in all the typical things typical conspiracy theorist idiots do, i.e. number games and merely associative "thinking".

Eagle Feathers, you know for yourself that this is utter nonsense, or you are nuts. Which one is it?

And it is immoral, above all. It is you duty to strive for truth, and to be open to others. You are not allowed to make you comfortable with this nonsense.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/13/2019 11:48:00 am

The answer is... yes.

I am Zeus of Arcadia
Son to Helen of Macedon
Keeper of the Temple at Knossos
and True Blood to the City of Troi

Suck on it

EAGLE FEATHER
1/13/2019 11:57:40 am

That means I'm Danish royalty... Old Republic of course.

American cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 01:58:58 pm

T. Franke amuse Atlantis wind-up. Toynbee resurrect Critias Hunter Mountain. Complete sentences behooves.

T. Franke link
1/13/2019 02:46:23 pm

Eagle Feather,

the purpose of your postings is only to fill some time and some electronic space with nonsense texts.

You make no argument.
And there is no progress.
You also do not point to any real name or Web site or book.

It is just about wasting time and space.
And probably misleading other people.

Why do you do that?

American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 03:44:21 pm

I've enjoyed watching you enable the Mental Patient of the Month. Apparently your Adlertotem didn't endow you with self control.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/14/2019 04:25:47 pm

"2. During the time of Egypt, people of the Mediterranean were mostly not aware of the Mesoamerican pyramids."

Leaving aside the fact that Egypt is still there, albeit run by savages ...

Prove that ANYONE in the Mediterranean was aware of Mesoamerican pyramids before Columbus and it's Nobel Prize time. Or whatever the appropriate prize is.

But you can't prove it because it's something you, a mental patient, made up.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/14/2019 07:00:53 pm

Disco-

Don't know exactly what you are saying I made up?

People on this blog have offered evidence of trade at the Mesoamerican pyramids. Which means there were people who knew?

People on this blog have offered evidence that the Norse colonized America. Which means there were people who knew?

The fact that the pyramids exist is evidence that people knew.

Nero burned half of Rome. They were burned in Mesoamerica.

The only point you are making then... would be that somehow the people who traded in the Mediterranean and people who were part of the ruling regimes of the time were not involved?

American cool "Disco" Dan
1/14/2019 09:22:21 pm

"People on this blog have offered evidence of trade at the Mesoamerican pyramids. Which means there were people who knew?"

Wait? What? Trade in a society? You've just proven unicorns.

Prove that ANYONE in the Mediterranean was aware of Mesoamerican pyramids before Columbus.

Emphasis on the word "prove". "I'm a mental patient and I believe it" is not proof.

EAGLE FEATHER
1/14/2019 09:44:26 pm

So... you are a mental patient, and you believe it.

What more proof do you need than that?

The people holding the proof have proven you and your sources and your academics don't know... s*#t.

The emphasis is on 'proven'.

Doc Rock
1/12/2019 02:10:36 pm

I think that there was some garbled transmission in the friend of a friend anecdote involving p

Reply
Doc Rock
1/12/2019 02:21:09 pm

Poly sci. I'm confident that anthropologists in general understand that political scientists may be involved in research on voting patterns. I suspect it was a matter of some anthropologists not being aware of a recent trend in poly sci for some to be very involved in qualitative research methods as opposed to quantitative research and computer modeling which have dominated the field.

And I don't think that the Coe accountt taken in full context supports what you think it does.

An Anonymous Nerd
1/12/2019 09:33:38 pm

Easier to just reply down here.

Re, science being political in the government-type sense: I never said it didn't happen just that it wasn't as common as the other sense....And as the accusation of "big p" politics being used to belittle important and verified conclusions. (Global warming; Evolution; and such.)

Re Anthropology vs Political Science at a conference: Didn't sound garbled to me. And the stuff the Anthropologists were saying was pretty basic, stuff they could've realized was already discussed as far back as the 1950s, starting with the book "The American Voter."

Re Coe: The context was pretty clear, actually. The account was unsubtle.

Re Atlantis: Again the important part is that it was a story. Maybe it had inspirations or source material, maybe it was just made up, but that's a different question. The "real Atlantis" folks almost always are looking for the Fringe Atlantis.

Re "That is why not a single edict of the Constitution still stands.": Assuming you mean the U.S. Constitution (apologies if I'm misreading you), you probably are trying to make a political point about the erosion of freedoms in the U.S. or something. Just know that as you phrased it there actually are still plenty of provisions of the U.S. Constitution that are still in effect. Still two houses of Congress, still a Supreme Court, still an Electoral College, still plenty of legislative powers retained by Congress (sure "Executive Lawmaking" is a thing but, ultimately, Congress maintains the legislative power), still Impeachment is possible, still the correct number of Senators, etc.

Like I said I recognize you're probably making a political point but that kind of exaggeration doesn't really help make it.

Re "the occasional person talking outside of his or her area": What I had in-mind is the occasional academic that gets duped into supporting Scott Wolter, the South African Philosopher who got duped by G. Hancock, etc. Stuff like that. That's almost always someone talking outside of his or her field and not doing the necessary background.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Reply
EAGLE FEATHER
1/12/2019 10:17:57 pm

Funny...

While my political point was painted, I'll double down on your assessment.

1. There are no houses of Congress. Elections have not taken place for awhile now, if ever. The fact that judges have been deciding outcomes well after the 'faux' balloting is over indicates they take bids to determine who will gain the seat.

2. There is no Supreme Court. If law existed, then there would only be an occasional dissenting vote. The fact that 5-4 is the standard is an indication of favoritism to religious orders.

3. The Electoral College has broken its own provisions on several occasions. And its supposed to be a rubber stamp division.

4.Judicial branch legislates, Executive branch goes outside its authority and legislates with the stroke of a pen, Congressional branch could care less about enforcing its laws unless it hinders the population within. All treason, no checks and balances.

Sorry, I'm getting a little nit picky... but someone who views the American government as though it exists, is like the person who watches the cartoon Bambi and thinks actual deer can talk to rabbits and skunks. Talk to the Representatives who got ran out of town, it will open your eyes for the first time.

The U.S. is a monarchy plain and simple. The general public is kept at bay with the figment of your imagination. Communism is most likely the endgame. The number of nobles the only toy from which to play with. I could write a book about how wrong you are, oops I already did. But, I could write another more in-depth book on the subject if I thought there was a chance in hell anyone would read it.

Reply
Doc Rock
1/12/2019 10:51:50 pm

About seven years back I served on the thesis committee for an anthropology grad student research American voting behavior. I told him that he should plan on reading a lot of poly sci journals to help ground his research because that type of research has traditionally fallen within their realm of interest. The rest of the committee and the student agreed because it was just plain common sense. Whatever someone heard or thinks that they heard in A panel at A conference is not really evidence of some widespread ignorance by anthropologists, especially those who concentrate in Political Anthropology, of the fact that political scientists would spend a lot of time researching one of the primary features of the American political process. I just don't see you coming up with anything supporting that contention, although I suspect that you will insist on trying. It would be like claiming that anthropologists don't know that economists are interested in researching market exchange.

Archaeologists have been involved in trying to understand Mayan since day one so saying that archaeologists choose to ignore deciphering Maya makes no sense. I think that you are referring to some archaeologists who were somewhat indifferent to translating Maya because they felt that it wasn't particularly relevant in terms of providing insights specifically relevant to their own work. For example, if one is involved in research on circa-800 AD maize yields then they may not be all that excited about reading inscriptions on monuments that have a lot of stuff like "King Ralph had the heart of a jaguar and once killed 1000 men in a single battle." Not a position that I agree with, but neither is it proof that archaeologists engage in fringe-level rejection of Mayan translation efforts.

The events discussed by Coe occurred about 30 years ago by the way. A lot has happened since then. .



Reply
An Anonymous Nerd
1/13/2019 10:47:15 am

RE the voting behavior kid: Good to know but let us hope you did not allow the kid to duplicate the findings of Political Science and then declare it to be brand new. Because that's analogous what Mr. Colavito is describing here. Archaeologists lent considerable weight to historical and literary accounts that already existed. Quite nifty.

Then they decided to proclaim these findings to be totally new and grafted themselves onto the Fringe -- for seemingly no other reason than that the Fringe agreed to (as it often does) proclaim these findings to be radically new....Which we know they weren't. Quite non-nifty.

RE: "Archaeologists have been involved in trying to understand Mayan since day one so saying that archaeologists choose to ignore deciphering Maya makes no sense."

See Coe.

RE: "The events discussed by Coe occurred about 30 years ago by the way. A lot has happened since then. . "

So, which is it? I'm somehow misinterpreting the book or what the authors described happen but things have calmed down since then? I should hope that the Archaeologists couldn't ignore such a monumental achievement for forever. At some point perhaps I'll get over to the library and take another look at Coe, but he seemed pretty unambiguous to me.

How was it you put it further up in the comments?

"A lot of debate might be avoided if people were a lot more clear in defining exactly what is being studied. "

Ah yes, that was it. You are correct, at least sort of (see below for the qualifier). When I read seemingly-contradictory academic studies my first assumption is, "these are both correct but are somehow talking past each other, and/or are studying the same subject from different perspectives." Sometimes that assumption falls, but I've been pleasantly surprised by how often that assumption holds.

Mr. Colavito, however, isn't the offender here. It's Archaeology. It was them who proclaimed something that was already in the literature to be totally new. Then, even worse, grafted themselves onto the enemies of their own field in order to proclaim it to a wider audience.

And all I did was to fit that into a broader framework based on other things I had read, heard, and experienced. You then chose to react in this particular manner.

And that brings me to the qualifier for the above: When an academic field such as Archaeology insists that only the evidence it offers should count, at all, problems arise.

-An Anonymous Nerd

Doc Rock
1/13/2019 01:43:30 pm

Mr. Nerd,

Well, any anthropology student who claimed that the general topic of conducting research on American voting behavior was something completely new would be laughed out of their thesis defense. Ditto for someone making the same claim to a room full of professionals at a conference. So, sorry but I really don't see this issue as relevant to the point that you are trying to make in regard to the main article. Might want to touch bases with your friend or friend's friend and try to find out exactly what he says that he heard and then decide if the incident actually serves as any sort of evidence for a ringing indictment of anthropology in general.

There is no contradiction in my statement about 30 years ago and now. There were some contentious debates involving some people about the relevance of Maya translations 30-odd years ago, as well as debate over methodology. But these debates did not represent a rejection of maya translation by archaeology in general, just rather just different perspectives on the merits of such work and how specifically to go about doing it. Since then further advances have been made in translation, and I think that you would have to attend a lot of conferences to find as much contention as was found in a single conference in the late 80s. So, yeah a lot has happened, but then again a lot can happen in any given 30 year period in archaeology. If one doesn't keep up with the changes then they can get in trouble in terms of making claims about archaeologists.

As a side note, I should add that one of my profs in grad school was the editor of a journal devoted to Maya linguistics, another was an archaeologist working Maya sites in Belize, and one of my fellow grad students was conducting his thesis research on refining Maya translation. So, i have some deeper insights into this topic beyond what one will find in Coe's book.

You do realize that if one substitutes pre-clovis work for Maya translation then your logic sounds a lot like fringe folks who try to criticize archaeology in the present based on wishful thinking regarding what they think was happening in archaeology in the past ? Just some food for thought to save you some problems in the future.

I will tell you the same thing that I have told E.P. several times. There are a lot of archaeologists doing a lot of different types of work. Trying to indict archaeologists in general based on what a few folks in the field say, or what you think they say, tends to come across as quite silly, at least to a professional.

Now i am sure that you will want to continue this discussion, but since I don't find it particularly relevant to to the main article i will move on to other things. But first, in honor of the occasion of discussing Maya archaeology I think that i will go with a Corona for my first kiss of the day. Now that choice is something done by an anthropologist that would serve as a basis for some valid criticism by you. Just don't try to use it as evidence that all of us have equally suspect taste when it comes to beer. LOL

anon
1/13/2019 01:37:13 pm

I thought everyone knew that Viking female warriors were the offspring of ancient aliens and red-haired giants!

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
1/13/2019 01:57:45 pm

I wish the comments weren't always mere byways for settling personal grudges or flying personal fringe theories.

The question isn't just hard archaeology vs. oral or written sources. It is what does this recent archaeological find actually say? It would hardly be unusual for royal figures (Queen Mother/Queen?) to be buried with a panoply of grave goods, including weapons and/or armor, regardless if they ever participated personally in battles. We certainly know of various Queens who launched wars both offensive and defensive, but only occasionally are they specifically cited as brave warriors rather than hereditary political leaders.

Just as a case in point, Henry VIII's suit oversize of armor is iconic, and while he was present at a battle or siege or two, he never seems to have actually taken active part in a fight. Unless you count the wrestling match against the French king, which he lost, BTW.

Reply
Doc Rock
1/13/2019 02:35:00 pm

Most of my knowledge of Henry 8 comes from watching the series Tudors, but wasn't he badly wounded while jousting in a tournament? Obviously not a "real" battle but pretty series business which permitted people to prove themselves as warriors even if they never fought in actual battle. Not a criticism of you, just further commentary on the difficulty in defining concepts like warrior and actual participation in combat versus simply being present there.

Kind of reminds me of Abraham Lincoln. He is often portrayed as never having participated in combat even though he was in the Blackhawk War. But when the Confeds launched an attack on a fort guarding the way to Wahington DC, Lincoln was present on the front line and a union soldier standing just a few feet from him was killed by enemy fire. So, did his presence there in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief qualify as combat thus making him a warrior? Don't think that he fired a weapon, but then again, under most circumstances, if a staff officer actually participates in combat they are probably neglecting their duty to direct junior officers and enlisted men who are doing the actual fighting. Interesting stuff.

Reply
American cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 03:15:55 pm

Front line against an opposing force.
Subordinate shot by enemy army (presumably but it doesn't matter).
Combat.

No real thought required.

Doc Rock
1/13/2019 03:34:09 pm

"No real thought required."And yet you took the time to think it thru, including pondering the potential implications of friendly fire, and post your thoughts on the matter.

Think that i will drink Corona number three out of a canteen.



Doc Rock
1/13/2019 03:58:28 pm

And the circumstances under which someone dies from non-enemy contact certainly does matter in terms of whether something is classified as a combat death or not. Just a bit more food for some real thought.

Now try to avoid sending that quick response that no doubt will include some some degree of prurience and instead look up topics like friendly fire and fragging. Then go forth into this world a slighly better educated person rather than wasting time trying to zing me.

Corona is not good when sipped from a canteen by the way.

Shane Sullivan
1/13/2019 05:08:21 pm

Fun fact: Lincoln was also a wrestler.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 05:32:59 pm

"And the circumstances under which someone dies from non-enemy contact certainly does matter in terms of whether something is classified as a combat death or not. Just a bit more food for some real thought."

That's what an idiot says as he's moving the goalposts. You were talking about LINCOLN, not the surgeon shot beside him.

Your alcoholism predictably makes you both loquacious and pugnacious, Cap'n. Add to that "Ooh! I should have said this before!" and you fingerpaint a sad picture.

Unless there was more than one such incident you're referring to the Battle of Fort Stevens where Confederate forces under the command of Jubal Early were indeed present, and shooting.

You asked for prurience because of your compulsion; you can use this next time you're trying to worm into the kiddies' table: “Tell me, Jimmy: Have you ever seen a grown man naked?"

Doc Roc
1/13/2019 07:10:32 pm

Ya didnt even try to read up a bit and think it thru, did ya? Oh well at least you are consistent.

For those interested in the topic some ways of being killed by your own side are considered to be combat and others aren't. So how the guy next to Lincoln was killed would help determine credibility in asserting Lincoln's combat credibility pr lack thereof. That is if we are gonna venture down discos rabbit hole.

Doc Rock
1/13/2019 08:05:38 pm

And I already know what Disco Chomo is gonna say so I will go ahead and get his strike three out of the way. I don't think that a lot of people consider Lincoln to have been a combat veteran despite the circumstances. A selling point to the contrary is that a guy next to him was killed by enemy fire. Now replace the enemy fire with "shot in the back by accident by a drunk union private" and it puts a rather different paint job on things. Dead is dead but I would venture to guess that being killed by the enemy as opposed to friendly fire or fragging might matter a lot to those on the receiving end.

Chardonnay at the Olive Garden beckons and disco has used up his ration of attention getting for the whole week with me. But I am sure that some of you will enjoy his rant in response to this. Adieu.

American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 08:45:36 pm

No, I've had my say but your alcoholism and compulsion to reoffend will inevitably compel you to say more.

"For those interested in the topic some ways of being killed by your own side are considered to be combat and others aren't."

You DO remember that the battle didn't take place at Ford's Theater, right? So in your book, no Purple Hearts for those wounded during a battle when someone was fragged. During a battle is prime fragging time.

You DO remember you were talking about Lincoln, right? NOT the giuy who got shot, right?

You really are debilitated by your alcoholism and your compulsion to reoffend.

Doc Rock
1/13/2019 03:05:34 pm

Re: personal fringe theories

I've noticed an interesting trend here. Some people cheerfully (and often rightfully) bash fringe theories and fringe theorists because of flimsy or lacking, evidence, personal attacks, and rejection of the perspectives of the people who are actually qualified to comment on any given area under discussion. Yet the moment that their own ox is gored they begin to engage in much the same behavior that they ridicule when coming from those among the fringe. Kind of self-defeating in terms of credibility. I find the concept of "fringe of the anti-fringe" useful in such instances.

Obviously that excludes people who engage in some fairly light-hearted banter, but rather those here who consistently pick the wrong hill to die on and then behave like a Wolter groupie when folks come charging up the hill to oblige them..

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 09:00:13 pm

"And I already know what Disco Chomo is gonna say"

Your anti-gay slur is noted and appreciated because there's nothing worse than a homo is what I hear you saying.

Accumulated Wisdom
1/14/2019 01:30:03 am

Absolute Hypocrisy!

Duly noted.

I won't cut and paste all the times you have called me, "Faggot".

I am a force of nature. NOT a bundle of wood.

Joe Scales
1/14/2019 03:04:35 pm

Got it. Anthony Warren has no wood.

Accumulated Wisdom
1/13/2019 05:01:03 pm

The "Pillars of Hercules" has the same meaning as Romulus and Remus. Today, we call them Castor and Pollux.

The "4 Pillars of Horus" refers to the "4 Royal Stars" which are also the Lion, Eagle, Ox/Bull, and Man.

Quit digging in the ground, and look up.

Most every ancient story, is actually Astronomy with a historical gloss.

Reply
American Cool "Disco" Dan
1/13/2019 08:52:23 pm

JESUS EFFING CHRIST ANTHONY WARREN FROM SCOTT WOLTER'S BLOG YOU ESCAPED MENTAL PATIENT, after being corrected you again got the assignments wrong.

STOP THE MADNESS.

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Accumulated Wisdom
1/14/2019 01:16:07 am

Damn, Sniffles Hogr, I have to correct you again. I am not from Wolter's blog. Yes, I have commented on his blog, but, I am not FROM THERE. I was born in a city, within a state, of the United States.

Yes. My first and middle names are Anthony, and Warren. I have NEVER hidden that fact. I spelled it out for all of the "language experts" by, using the meaning of BOTH. I then switched to Accumulated Wisdom. Again, I used my initials. This is when the second mind, I was seeking, figured it out. Patrick Shekelton, NOT YOU. Now, you want to keep popping off, like you figured out the meaning of life. What do you want...A COOKIE? 🍪

I certainly appreciate all of the times you have called me, "Faggot". Then watch you act all butt hurt, when someone does the same to you. E.P. may have been on to something, 💩🧠

I have never claimed to be a "Football Star". I do have a proven track record of working well with others, in order to achieve a higher goal. Teamwork! Football is not an individual sport.

The owner of this blog would sell more books, and take in more donations by, getting rid of you.


Joe Scales
1/14/2019 09:46:12 am

"The owner of this blog would sell more books, and take in more donations by, getting rid of you."

The irony here is that if there weren't imbeciles such as yourself Anthony, there would be no blog or books necessary to point out how the Fringe has hoodwinked you.

American cool "disco" dan
1/14/2019 10:45:57 am

Charlie Fineman: Are you a faggot?.
Alan Johnson: Don't say faggot, you just don't call people faggot that's rude.
Charlie Fineman: To a gay guy it is, to you it's just a funny word like poundcake or pickle... You really need some Mel.
Charlie Fineman: [ordering tickets] Take one adult and one faggot.

Clearly I made you feel "less than" and for that I am truly sorry Anthony.

American cool "Disco" Dan
1/14/2019 11:49:11 am

As Lee Falk used to say in the Phantom comic strip: "For those who came in late..."

"I have never claimed to be a "Football Star"."

'"It made me realize, yesterday was the 27th anniversary of the State Football Championship my senior year. Won with a core group of guys who all met in junior high. A core group so close and competitive, we only lost two games in 5 years together. The only two games I did not play. Good memories to have come rushing back. Thank you. Only two of us ever discussed ancient mysteries. We had enough Street Smarts to know better."

State Championship.
27th anniversary.
Only lost 2 games.

That makes your story checkable son, and when checked it turns out to be a lie. Imagine our surprise.

I hate to go all Chief Grondine on you but being a lying little ****** is no way to go through life. Top marks in jock sniffing though.'

Again, my sincere apologies for making you feel "less than".

Noted with interest: You apparently accept that you got the assignments of the Four Royal Stars wrong, building on your mistake about the Four Fixed Signs.

Still looking forward to your explaining about "all the planets in Virgo" you idiot.


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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
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      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Eridu Genesis
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Resurrection of Marduk
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Atlantis as Biblical History
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Atlantis and Nimrod
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and Hanno's Periplus
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
          • Amazing New Light (Hoax)
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • History of Paleontology
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • America Known to the Ancients
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Remarkable Discoveries Within the Sphinx (Hoax)
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • The Shaver Mystery >
          • Lovecraft and the Deros
          • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • CIA Search for the Ark of the Covenant
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • The Fall of the Sky
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Poltergeist UFOs
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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