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Wacky Claims from Reader Mail

9/2/2013

185 Comments

 
Some weird ideas cross my desk every day, and I don’t usually subject my readers to too many of them. But sometimes I just can’t help but share some of the truly nutty things people believe. Today we’ll have a Reader Mailbag edition of the blog. Let’s start with an email I received last week from a very concerned fellow who genuinely believed he made a massively important discovery about recent U.S. history.

White House Secrets
This correspondent, whom I will not name publicly, informed me that he recalled reading a “humorous” newspaper article in the 1980s that stated that a military veteran touring the White House in the Nixon years stumbled by accident into a high-level briefing about outer space thanks to an unlocked door. The government forcibly re-enlisted the man to keep him from talking. My correspondent could not quite remember any of the details, but he has visited the Library of Congress, the Associated Press, and the Nixon Presidential Library in hopes of finding this article. He failed to find any trace of it, suggesting to him a conspiracy of silence.

Nevertheless, at thirty years’ remove he is confident enough about his memory of this “humorous” story to research what the story could possibly have referred to. He believes that no one enters the White House without being already privy to our nation’s most important terrestrial secrets; therefore, he must have stumbled into a meeting about non-terrestrial or supernatural material. (But of course.) Further, because he wasn’t kicked out of the meeting, it must have been so fascinating as to render the President and his officials speechless. (The conspiracy, of course, somehow failed to stop the intruder from telling his story to a reporter.) 

Therefore, the concludes that the officials were examining photographs of Santa Claus examining the golden disc sent into outer space on the Voyager space probe. That’s just logic, right? (In reality, the golden disc launched in 1977, during the Carter administration.)

My correspondent asked me for recommendations of appropriate experts to whom he could submit a paper he had written on the subject (a copy of which, sadly, I now have). I sent him to Giorgio Tsoukalos, care of Prometheus Entertainment.

Sanskrit Fundamentalism
I also received some negative feedback from ethnocentric Indians who would like to see the subcontinent take its place as the center of world history. According to multiple complaints, I have failed to recognize that Sanskrit is so regular and perfect a language that it must have been artificially created by extraterrestrials or Atlanteans at the dawn of time in order to encode high level information for all of time. All of these messages have come from India, which, perhaps not coincidentally, is also the source of daily blog comment spam directing my readers to college cheating websites and spyware websites. As a matter of fact, Sanskrit has plenty of irregular verbs and other irregular constructions that a “perfect” language would not possess. It is one branch of the Indo-European language family, but Indian supremacists want to adopt the long-outdated eighteenth century belief that it is the oldest Indo-European tongue and therefore the progenitor of all European languages.

Sinclair Family Values
I pointed out in my newsletter this past weekend a blog post by a genealogy researcher discussing the ongoing feud within the world of the Sinclair family and its admirers, with various advocates arguing for which people with the Sinclair name are a part of the “true” Sinclair bloodline and who are just pretenders. Linking to that article opened a flood gate of Sinclair mail. I had no idea how many Sinclairs there are, nor how many of them are deeply invested in tracing their royal/divine genealogy back to Henry Sinclair, Earl of Orkney and Jesus Christ. Fortunately, most of the people who wrote to me—many of whom asked me to avoid mentioning their names because they have been in disputes with Steve St. Clair over his DNA line—do not believe that the Sinclair family has anything to do with a Holy Bloodline, a Templar discovery of America, or gold-eating aliens. (Laurence Gardner tied the Holy Bloodline to gold-eating Anunnaki, so that made the Sinclairs alien step-children by default.)

Nevertheless, I have never encountered so many people who devote so much energy to analyzing their family tree in search of minor nobility; it became quite clear that many “rank and file” Sinclairs are only interested in their DNA in the hopes of connecting themselves to Henry Sinclair’s alleged discovery (and/or conquest) of America and to Jesus.

Nor have I read through so much very boring material on the DNA markers of various Sinclair claimants—all of which I find somewhat funny since in human history, genetics has played only a partial role in defining family. We are today more absolute than medieval or early modern people would have been in deciding who counts as family. The Romans would have laughed at the idea that adopted children aren’t “true” family, a hurtful concept that lingers even today. Ironically, all it would take—even if a Jesus Bloodline really existed—was a single cheating wife around 300 or 400 CE and the Sinclairs wouldn’t have any Jesus genes at all!

I think the most telling anecdote is one sent to me via email in which a Sinclair reported that after America Unearthed broadcasted its Sinclair conspiracy nonsense, people started stopping him whenever they heard his name to ask him about his relationship to Jesus and to Prince Henry. No reports yet of the public bowing down in worship or offering tributes, though.

185 Comments
Gunn
9/2/2013 06:39:48 am

It looks to me like you're putting way to much emphasis on the purported linkage between Henry Sinclair and a Jesus Bloodline. Is it to ridicule Wolter without mentioning his name? When you say "Jesus Bloodline," are you saying "Wolter's Belief," in association with Sinclairs?" If so, I see a continued fixation on Wolter, perhaps much as I have a fixation on the KRS.

We don't seem to be able to help ourselves, do we? Jason, do you have OCD, too?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
9/2/2013 06:42:44 am

No. I don't control what people write to me, and if they write to discuss their claims about the Jesus Bloodline, that's their business. Scott Wolter isn't the only person discussing the Jesus Bloodline--dozens of books are published about it each year. You're welcome to do some research and discover this for yourself. Did you read the blog post I linked to? That writer all on her own talked about the Jesus Bloodline, if only to disparage others' obsession with it.

Reply
Shawn Sinclair
9/7/2013 04:21:19 pm

The Jesus issue isn't a concern for most, it's rather a dead issue as its been proven that he was a man and not a God. His lineage survived period, and I agree with Jason in that there is an obsession with it. It just should be looked at with normal genealogy.

Al West link
9/7/2013 09:37:08 pm

"as its been proven that he was a man and not a God"

What an extraordinary thing to say. Who has proven it? What evidence is there?

I'm not a Christian, at all, but it takes a lot to prove something. You'd think proof of Jesus's non-divinity would have made the news at some point.

Christopher Randolph
9/8/2013 05:16:09 pm

I have yet to see proof that Jesus even existed... at all.

Of course we know that the vast majority of the stories attached to Jesus' life existed before 1 AD, in myth and popular fictional stories.

Shawn Sinclair
9/7/2013 04:04:53 pm

Earl Henry Sinclair's fictitious trip to America



Brian Smith



This article appears in the New Orkney Antiquarian Journal, vol. 2, 2002. It appears here with a few amendments.

Endnotes are highlighted in the text thus (1) and clicking on the endnote number will take you to the endnote. Clicking [RETURN] at any endnote will bring you back to the section of text you were reading. You can e-mail Brian Smith from here.



Henry Sinclair, an earl of Orkney of the late fourteenth century, didn't go to America. (1) It wasn't until 500 years after Henry's death that anybody suggested that he did. The sixteenth century text that eventually gave rise to all the claims about Henry and America certainly doesn't say so. What it says, in so many words, is that someone called Zichmni, with friends, made a trip to Greenland. None of Henry Sinclair's contemporaries or near-contemporaries ever claimed that he went to America; and none of the antiquaries who wrote about him in the seventeenth century said so either, although they made other absurd claims about him. The story is a modern myth, based on careless reading, wishful thinking and sometimes distortion, and during the past five years or so it has taken new outrageous forms.



1



The main source that we must consult about this matter is a little book, with a curious map, published anonymously in Venice in 1558. (2) The part of it that gave rise to the modern fantasies about Henry Sinclair is a mere 7,000 words long. It was written by Nicolò Zeno, a Venetian, to honour two of his ancestors. I shall argue, as others have argued, that Zeno's tale is an elaborate practical joke. I begin by summarising its contents. They are different from what some of its modern expositors have suggested.

The text contains six main sections, linked by the author's explanatory comments. These sections allegedly derive from letters by Nicolò Zeno, the author's ancestor and namesake, and Nicolò's brother Antonio Zeno. These Zenos were real people: Venetian navigators of the second half of the fourteenth century. Some of the letters purport to be by Nicolò to Antonio, and the rest are supposed to be by Antonio to another brother: the famous Carlo Zeno, saviour of Venice in the war of 1380-1 with Genoa.

The first section describes how Nicolò Zeno set off on a voyage from Venice to England and Flanders in 1380. There is evidence that Nicolò made such a voyage, and came back again, in 1385. (3) In the text, Nicolò is shipwrecked on an island called Frislanda, which, the narrator says, 'is an island much larger than Ireland'. Frislanda (as will been seen from Zeno's map) is indeed large, and it doesn't exist. The place-names that Zeno has written on it are partly Faroese, and partly Icelandic.

'By chance,' says our narrator, 'a Prince with an armed following happened to be in the neighbourhood'. The prince had a curious name: Zichmni. He owned some islands called Porlanda, off the south coast of Frislanda, and ruled the duchy of Sorant, or Sorand, on the south-east of the same island. Just a year before, we learn, Zichmni had won a victory against the ruler of Frislanda, the king of Norway, and he is now engaged in conquering the island. Zichmni employs Nicolò as a pilot, and the Venetian refugee plays such a valiant part in the conquest of the island that Zichmni ennobles him.

After all this excitement Nicolò naturally writes home to his brother Antonio, and invites him north to the (imaginary) island. Antonio arrives, and stays for fourteen years. Zichmni makes Antonio his captain, and sends him to attack Estlanda, another island in the North Sea. Estlanda is clearly meant to be Shetland, as is obvious from its place-names: Brystund, for instance, an old form of Bressay Sound; Sumburgh Head; Scalloway (the latter wrongly depicted on the east side of the main island). But the king of Norway sends his fleet to defend Shetland, and Antonio retreats to an uninhabited island called Grislanda, off the south coast of Iceland.

Zichmni gives up his plan to attack Estlanda, and turns his attention to Iceland. But the main part of that island is too well defended, our narrator tells us, and Zichmni assails seven islands on its east side instead: Talas, Broas, Iscant, Trans, Mimant, Damberc and Bres. Like Frislanda, these islands do not exist. Zichmni builds a fort on Bres, and leaves Nicolò in charge there. Nicolò soon sets out on a voyage of discovery. He makes land in Greenland, and inspects a monastery there with central heating. But the cold is still too much for him. He returns to Frislanda and dies there. He has been in the far north for four or five years.

Soon afterwards word reaches Zichmni that some fishermen, presumably natives of Frislanda, have come home after an absence of a quarter of a century. They have been visiting previously unknown countries called Estotilanda and Drogeo in the far west. On

Reply
Gunn
9/8/2013 03:33:48 am

"... have come home after an absence of a quarter of a century. They have been visiting previously unknown countries called Estotilanda and Drogeo in the far west."

Hhmmm.... Time-wise, this would be the date of Jason's Waterloo, perhaps later to be revised to Jason's Folly. (At bit of friendly rib-jabbing.)

Well, just to show that NW Europeans (Scandinavian)) were very much out and about exploring new lands around circa 1362, a quarter of a century before the Zichmni deal.

Wouldn't it be funny if this very group of fishermen from Frislanda turned out to be fishermen/explorers from far West of Vinland, inland, perhaps travelling a well-known route? Of course I'm kidding...right?

Shawn Sinclair
9/8/2013 05:02:06 pm


"I'm not a Christian, at all, but it takes a lot to prove something. You'd think proof of Jesus's non-divinity would have made the news at some point."
@ Al West, perhaps you should try reading sometime Al, it helps. It already did make the news several times, here's a hint though.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_20.htm

Sinclair
9/2/2013 08:33:02 am

Jason please let me clear up a few things regarding your Sinclair blog post. The person who wrote this blog does not carry the surname Sinclair and is not related in any way, but does have his own ongoing feud with some Sinclairs who themselves are not part of the Sinclair family to which they claim to be.

I also think I know who the adopted one refers to and he has the name Sinclair and his father was adopted by a Sinclair family that also is in no way related to the Sinclair family to which they all refer. You see its like this, the Sinclair surname carries over a dozen different types of DNA, none relating to the others. The somewhat dubious Sinclair history is basically about one particular family line. Most Sinclairs do not relate to that line so you see the claim by some be a part of this line is not true.Most if not all of the fairytales about Sinclairs are made up by people who do not even carry the same surname. Its all the same as identity theft really.

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Jason Colavito link
9/2/2013 09:03:53 am

I wasn't referring to a specific adopted person. I still don't quite get what is so fascinating about being a Sinclair or a "Sinclair." I've known people who were descended from actual famous people of the Middle Ages and early modern times, and they weren't half so interested in their bloodlines. I'll fix the ID of the blogger.

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Sinclair
9/2/2013 09:34:38 am

Thank you Jason. The issue is NOT who is a Sinclair, it's who is NOT. This whole Sinclair issue is due to Steve StClair and his DNA site. To me it's about all the hype and false information and certain ones who think they belong but actually do not. Even though to you the Sinclairs seem to have no importance. But to those who think they do and have thought all their lives that they belong to this family, and well, then to find out they are no part of the history they thought was theirs is more than a bit of a let down. Suddenly you have NO family history and that to some is too much. Like Steve StClair now will have to have a garage sale to rid himself of all the Sinclair/StClair trinkets I have seen in the background in the vidios he has put out. You see none of the history Steve talks about has anything to do with him, he simply has the surname. It is these people who are the loudest outspoken ones,trying to belong

Clint Knapp
9/2/2013 10:31:08 am

In the end, does it really matter who "belongs" to any given familial line or not? If one is born or adopted into a family bearing the surname "Sinclair" one is a Sinclair. Or a St.Clair, or a St.Claire, or any other spelling of any other surname on earth.

I'm honestly perplexed by the desire to DNA-trace anyone back to DNA lines no one can rightly claim connect to any historical figure- let alone Henry Sinclair or Jesus. Any documented family line claiming to stretch back more than about three hundred years is going to be suspect as surname spellings change over time, families spread out, entire generations are born without a male heir to continue the name, and any other of a host of potential bumps in the road. Some may even decide to adopt a name as an alias solely for the purpose of creating the appearance of a connection to a story or claim they support.

If one was truly descended from Jesus (and one accepts, even hypothetically, that Jesus was a historically provable figure- magic powers and immaculate birth or not), wouldn't they be more concerned with acting the part and spreading his message of universal love and peace to all men than arguing about who is and who isn't their twelve-times-removed distant step-cousin?

Jason Colavito link
9/2/2013 10:38:51 am

Obviously, Clint, you haven't read the opening of the Gospel of Matthew, where the author traces Jesus' paternal ancestry back to Abraham only to stop and say "oops!" Joseph isn't really his father, so it's all moot. Clearly the Sinclairs have taken notes.

Clint Knapp
9/2/2013 05:17:31 pm

I tried, I really did. But then I learned there were actual people using that as a platform for linking their own families back to Abraham as well (and then using the Genesis list to link from Abraham back to Adam) and frankly I laughed and moved on.

Thane
9/3/2013 10:13:38 am

Tracing one's lineage back to some mythical founder was de rigueuer (sp?) for many centuries especially in the ruling classes. In the Greek and Hellenistic world, anyone who was anyone claimed descent from Hercules and other demi-gods and gods.

European kings often claimed direct descent from various biblical personages or from heroes such as Arthur.

In the US, the desire was to be descended from Mayflower pilgrims or other founders.

The writer of that Gospel was just following tradition and more than likely believed that great people descend from other great people. i.e. It's something in the blood.

Speaking as an adopted person, I often wonder about who "my people" where and if I am anything like them. I belong to a family who I love and who love me. I am very comfortable with them and fell fully loved by my adopted family. Family is more than related by blood. Having said that, there is a fascination in delving into why am I who I am...how much is nature vs. nurture?

My brother is also adopted but he has no interest in "who his people are" and only did his search to see if he could learn about the medical history if his birth-parents when he had children of his own. Anything beyond that would've been a bonus but not something he worried about.

My point is that it is not odd for people to be interested in and find their genealogy fascinating. Like anything else, however, there will always be those that become obsessive or who seek to find greater meaning in their heritage than just satisfying intellectual curiosity. Let's not tar everyone interested in genealogy because of the antics of the mentally ill.

Christopher Randolph
9/4/2013 03:57:10 am

I was initially going to comment just what Jason said here, and I thought he was going to mention in the text of the article: according to the Bible itself Jesus isn't from his own bloodline!

"The issue is NOT who is a Sinclair, it's who is NOT."

Ha! And you happen to be a Sinclair who is not NOT, I imagine?

Nothing a little Dr. Seuss won't cure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories#.22The_Sneetches.22

Only Me
9/2/2013 09:55:32 am

Are you the same Sinclair that I asked Steve about? He says you've been kicked out of six forums for raising a stink, something to do with "strange notions of one, true Sinclair bloodline."

I ask, because I'm pretty sure this topic is going to generate some heat, to the exclusion of the other two topics mentioned.

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Sinclair
9/2/2013 10:09:43 am

Hmm how to answer that. I have been kicked off a few sites,but probably no more than Steve. Six, lol deffinetly not. If your believing anything Steve tells you,well good luck.

One True blood line from the Sinclairs of Rosslyn...why yes. Its simple really . The pogenitor of the family started with one man, so his YDNA would therefore be the true bloodline.That particular family line of inheritance can change over time to reveal other blood by way of NPE's or whatever but the true line would have to be that of the progenitor....

pro·gen·i·tor (pr-jn-tr)
n.
1. A direct ancestor. See Synonyms at ancestor.
2. An originator of a line of descent; a precursor.
3. An originator; a founder: progenitors of the new music.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course this will generate some heat as you say , revealing the truth is always awkward for some

Shawn Sinclair
9/8/2013 05:12:52 pm

Oh, and so everyone is clear, I'm the Sinclair who got the line from Caithness proven, and did the DNA testing on a person who is of the Earldom line with title. The others of that line aren't titled and some are mouthy, ungrateful underlings who know nothing about their own history until we told and showed them.:) Without me, they just wouldn't have been able to prove themselves and the Earldom line.:(

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Sinclair
9/8/2013 06:08:02 pm

Getting this guy to dna test was just the feather in the cap, we know who we are and who you are not Shawn. You did no research at all other that to ask someone to test. Its not like you had to search around for a testee,he was right there,and you simply asked..good for you. Actually things work the other way Shawn your man is confirmed by our dna, without our dna he would have no one to compare to.I kow my history,and again its you who has none. There must be one more of you guys I thought the stooges were a group of three

Shawn Sinclair
9/8/2013 05:31:30 pm

" Sinclair" is Robert James Sinclair, the dim wit little brother of the family who has mentioned me as the "adopted" Sinclair, yet my DNA is similar, yet different, and I'm also the one who proved his lineage, and without me he'd still be guessing about it because he couldn't do it without me and my connections in the Clan. He is despised as a low life, even his own brother says so openly. Sinclairs are their own biggest enemies, so if there is a fight with a few in it, stay out. You never know the outcome and where the next attack will come from. Get Some....whoa.

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Sinclair
9/8/2013 05:57:09 pm

SHAWN Sinclair's father was adopted, his fathers name was listed as surname Martin. What a surprise that Steve's old partner would show up here . Shawn emailed me last week trying to get me to be his buddy again, I told him to take a hike...lol Someone is pissed eh.
Shawn also obviously does not belong to the Sinclair family and is a bigger liar than Steve. This type of crap you see on here has been going on for a few years on every site on the net. Shawn lied to everyone about his own dna for years and I finally told everyone the truth about this dick. Obviously why your seeing this small minded boys anger here. You have been snorting too much hairspray at the salon boy, Hairdressers are such gossips.xoxo

Shawn Sinclair
9/8/2013 05:48:56 pm

Chris, I completely agree.
Best

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CFC
9/2/2013 10:15:13 am

Sinclair- What is your assessment of the connections the H2 program America Unearthed is making to the Sinclair family?

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Sinclair
9/2/2013 10:32:14 am

H2 Program is very interesting if you belive in fairytales. I actually enjoy watching it but feel somewhat embarassed also. This Prince Henry Sinclair thing has been going on for what seems ever. My opinion on Prince Henry is that someone has stuck the name Sinclair into other history and maybe added onto the tale a few times. I think I posted on this on one of yor other postings. There was a Prince Henbry the Navigator but he was not a Sinclair and I don't think he ever went to America. He was a Templar or belonged to the Order of Christ. To me anyway this is where the Sinclair story started.

Templars...no proof of Sinclairs being Templars but no proof they were not either



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_Navigator

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CFC
9/2/2013 10:41:54 am

Thanks for the response. Are any family members making an effort to counter the false claims about the Sinclairs?

Sinclair
9/2/2013 10:49:48 am

Clint Knapp, I claim NO connection to Jesus, that would be the NUTBARS.But regarding your comment about DNA and family. All documents such as birth certificates and so on are written by some human,who can or did on purpose make mistakes. People took surnames for all types of reasons and still do today. Actors in hollywood are usually not the person you think they are, as most change their names. Family is exactly that family, but Y dna is of the male line only and a direct blood link. DNA does not lie people lie. It really does not matter who is or who is not, its just the point of the matter. Maybe I will change my name to Knapp and say Im your blood cousin, I mean why not we share past history do we not.Is your GGGG grandfather not my GGGGrandfather??? Of course Im kidding and we are not related in any way even though I can change my name to the same as yours. So distance and time does not change who we relate to, you either relate or you do not.

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Clint Knapp
9/2/2013 05:08:35 pm

You're more than welcome to become a Knapp if you like. So far as I know there is no chance in hell we have anything to do with Jesus bloodline conspiracies, and as far back as I care to note we're mostly hard working German immigrants with a good eye for horseflesh. My mother's line is distantly related to James Monroe's VP, but who cares about that? He wasn't nobility, so I stand to gain nothing by relation. Just as whoever the "legitimate" Sinclairs are stand to gain nothing but bragging rights to a link to a fictional Jesus bloodline.

I'm just amazed so much time and effort is put into squabbling over who gets to inherit absolutely nothing. This is better than most television. Carry on your fight, though, you seem to actually have a level head about this nonsense, though I see Steve has reared his head to argue something or other- so we'll have to see how that goes.

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Sinclair
9/2/2013 10:59:22 am

CFC........I think thats whats happening here now.

Yes some of us are in fact trying. But a certain group of Sinclairs do not want the truth out and continue to carry on the lies and deception.Its all a big joke really, and the ones putting this information out are mostly the Sinclairs who in fact are not.

The Sinclair Family actually has a pretty good history of which probably only a Sinclair would care.

Books generate money, movies generate money..its all about money or self importance.

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CFC
9/2/2013 11:24:08 am

Has there been any "official" Sinclair family statement put forth regarding the unscientific claims being thrust upon the public by those profiting from these false claims?

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Sinclair
9/2/2013 11:49:58 am

Your kidding right! This senario is from the top on down.

CFC
9/2/2013 12:00:13 pm

I wasn't kidding.
You wrote.. "The Sinclair Family actually has a pretty good history of which probably only a Sinclair would care".
I thought perhaps there might be a group of these family members that care about their history and have collectively made an official statement that counters these false claims.
Thanks for answering my questions. Much appreciated.

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Steve St. Clair link
9/2/2013 04:16:25 pm

"Sinclair" is Robert James Sinclair. Just to lay the groundwork for the fun that's about to begin here, Bobbie, I wonder if you'd introduce this august group of DNA experts to your favorite academic, Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE.

After you're done, I'll do my part. I'm jumping right to the academic on this because I know how much this group loves academics.

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Al West link
9/3/2013 09:30:30 am

Strictly speaking, you don't need to include 'Dr.' and 'D.Phil' in the same title. They're the same thing; if you have a DPhil, you have a doctorate. Using both titles sounds like you're trying to puff up the qualifications, which you don't need to do. Actually, using any of these titles - especially the bachelor's degree - is unnecessary.

Moreover: you Sinclair people are a bit odd.

A. J. West, BA, MSc (Oxon.), KBE, Chief Gardener, Maker of the Tea.

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Dave Lewis
9/2/2013 05:51:12 pm

This stuff about people surnamed Sinclair being related to Jesus is just plain silly. His descendants would be surnamed "Christ".

****just kidding!!!!!****

Dave Lewis

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Harry
9/3/2013 12:56:46 am

Jason --

One correction: Everyone receives his or her genes from both parents. Therefore, one cheating wife would only preclude Y chromosome DNA from the hypothetical Jesus Bloodline; it would not preclude all DNA.

Actually, if Henry Sinclair was a descendant of Jesus, then most, if not all, of the World's population today, would be as well. Of course, it is possible that only Henry's male line descendants would have Jesus' Y chromosome DNA (if that is important), but the only way to know (since we have no DNA from Jesus or his family to compare) is if someone kept meticulous records of his male line descendants for at least 13 centuries (presumably while also successfully hiding it from everyone). There is no evidence of that. Silly indeed!

On another topic, my wife and I were guests of an Indian family, who subscribed to the notion that the Indo-European language family originated in India. I politely noted that some scholars disagree but, wishing to ensure that they did not take offense, I also noted that both proto-Indo-European and Hindustani (or was it Sanskrit?) appeared to have separate aspirated consonants that do not appear in languages of the other branches of the Indo-European family (so far as I know) and implied personal agnosticism on the subject. I did not think it was the forum in which to seriously challenge their beliefs.

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Jason Colavito link
9/3/2013 01:04:23 am

Of course we receive DNA from both parents, but presuming (and this is of course speculation) that we are referring to patrilineal descent and exogamous marriage, a cheating wife impregnated by a non-Sinclair Bloodline male would therefore give birth to a child with no Bloodline DNA. However, if the family were marrying their cousins, then, yes, some Jesus DNA would still pass on through the mother. Nevertheless, as you note, at this far remove, everyone of European heritage would share some of that DNA, just like the often-repeated claim that all Europeans have Charlemagne for an ancestor.

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Coridan Miller
9/3/2013 02:18:02 am

Or Ghengis Kahn.

Hell, I am in line for the British throne, just have to commit a little genocide first.

Gunn Sinclair link
9/3/2013 04:18:45 am

Jason says: "Obviously, Clint, you haven't read the opening of the Gospel of Matthew, where the author traces Jesus' paternal ancestry back to Abraham only to stop and say "oops!" Joseph isn't really his father, so it's all moot. Clearly the Sinclairs have taken notes."

Another jab at God's Word. Well, by now it's expected, and I can only say that if one believes in the Virgin Birth, one could also go on to believe that there was a good reason for pointing out the genealogy of Joseph, especially if one considered further that part of the miracle was perhaps using Joseph's DNA (sperm) for the Virgin Birth, thereby making Jesus the son of both God and Joseph.

Hi Steve! I was hoping you'd show up. The Wolter fixation goes on. By the way, would you mind clarifying your own position on the so-called Bloodline? I'm wondering how much of this actually may come from Sinclairs, and how much is generated in this particular blog in honor of Wolter.

Hhmmm, I don't see any special doors flipped open, so I guess I won't discuss my favorite subject here. Do you happen to have any questions about any rocks or stones or anything that might flip a medieval Midwest America door open? Thanks.

You noticed I garnished my name with the very honorable Sinclair name for this occasion. Way before this blog caught me, I came up with the name Gunn Sinclair because it was the Grandest pen-name name I could come up with...which I still think is true!

Let's not give up on trying to figure out what that metal object is, okay?

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Varika
9/3/2013 05:00:58 pm

....Gunn, why would God use Joseph's DNA for a VIRGIN birth when he could just let the pair of them do what married couples are actively encouraged to do? Furthermore, Jason's description of the Gospel isn't far off from the truth; it really does run through Joseph's lineage and then IMMEDIATELY go into the story of hos Jesus isn't actually Joseph's son because Joseph had kept his pants on around Mary. "This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit." (Mathew 1:18) How does this statement NOT render Joseph's genealogy moot to the question of Jesus' DNA? Wouldn't giving MARY'S genealogy be way more pertinent? Taking strictly what is written in the Bible, you simply cannot make the assumption that Joseph's bloodline is in ANY way pertinent to Jesus' bloodline. This is JUST like the Sinclair "quest" going on--there's a political reason why that bloodline would be emphasized, whether it had anything to do with Jesus himself or not; in Jesus' case, the fulfilling of Messiah prophecies, and in the Sinclair's case, the thought that it would make them Powerful, however delusional that belief is.

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Christopher Randolph
9/4/2013 04:07:56 am

"that part of the miracle was perhaps using Joseph's DNA (sperm) for the Virgin Birth, thereby making Jesus the son of both God and Joseph."

And we're the people disrespecting Christianity? I expect a bit more from a miracle than playing fertility clinic with a holy turkey baster. "Behold, the child born from his own father's sperm!"

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Gunn
9/6/2013 07:26:18 am

Varika and Christopher, I only provided a possible explanation for the Virgin Birth, which would include Joseph's DNA. Of course, God could have accomplished His mission another way. Why would there be a given genealogy for Joseph, if it were not to show the lineage leading to Jesus? Why would there be this linkage if not for a physical purpose...that being, Jesus is physically descended from Joseph, in addition to being the Son of God.

I just happen to believe there was a reason for God wanting Jesus to be a physical descendant of Abraham (and Joseph)...the issue of "faith through a sacrifice."

The reason for a Virgin Birth is of course another matter. Again, if a miraculous Virgin Birth, then why later carnality? A Jesus bloodline doesn't make sense. "That which is of the spirit is spirit, and that which is of the flesh is flesh." We fast to get away from the flesh. May I suggest that Christ was not just a mere fleshly human? His Spirit lives on. The Holy Spirit can indwell humans, too, just as demonic spirits can. Watch out, you two, as you are most likely unprotected. Perhaps someone is praying for you, is my hope.

The Cathars saw the importance of separating spirit from flesh. They were called by the locals, "The Good Christians." Of course, others, for doctrinal reasons and for convenience, called them bad.

Christopher Randolph
9/8/2013 05:12:03 pm

The Long Goodbye continues! The Who have called it quits fewer times than Gunn.

The Bible was written by a bunch of different people over many centuries, then retranslated and reedited numerous times by people with various obscure agendas from long-forgotten theological struggles. Sometimes things don't match from one page to another, and sometimes things just don't make any sense.

The NT was supposed to provide proof that Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy to be taken seriously. The lineage of Joseph shoehorns that bit in, without much concern for any subsequent claims. As George Carlin would say, this is sloppy work and no way to run a universe.

Sinclair
9/3/2013 06:42:01 am

Mystical Beliefes carried on by Niven Sinclair:

I extracted this from an article by Jeff Nisbet, this is more than a few years old but shows just one of the people behind all the fairytales about Sinclair Family
Oh and by the way this Gentleman Niven Sinclair reported here as a descendent of StClair ,well he also has been proven by DNA to not belong to the StClair/Sinclair line.........lol go figure eh

London businessman and St. Clair descendent, Niven Sinclair is fond of saying that William built Rosslyn Chapel “at a time when books could be burned or banned, so he left a message for posterity chiseled out in stone.” Niven’s pet project, into which he has sunk a great deal of energy over the years, is to prove that William’s grandfather made a voyage of discovery to America almost a century before Christopher Columbus made the voyage that history has approved.

Niven also believes that Christ did not die on the cross, but survived to sire children with his wife, Mary Magdalene. This marriage begat a bloodline that has flowed down the centuries through several high and mighty European families, including Niven’s own. But it is still the Biblical tale of Christ’s ascension that wins the popular vote in the credibility department, so Niven soldiers on.

See the complete article here:http://www.mythomorph.com/wp/secrets-of-rosslyn-chapel/

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Only Me
9/3/2013 07:05:55 am

Talk about a jab at God's word! To suggest that Jesus didn't die at the crucifixion, or make his ascension to Heaven, something that is the basis for the validity of the Shroud of Turin, is a slap in the face of the faithful. Then this all-knowing Niven Sinclair postulates that Jesus fathered a bloodline with Mary Magdalene, conveniently trying to loop back to the Templar-Sinclair link.

And Gunn, if the above doesn't qualify Niven Sinclair as a "Christian attacker", I don't know what would. By the way, it's awesome your still harping about the "Wolter fixation", when a few blogs back you said he was, and I quote, "heading straight for hell." Now that's an adversarial comment.

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Gunn
9/3/2013 07:49:52 am

I wonder where Niven got the idea of a bloodline? Dan Brown, or before, when the French Hoax was occurring? Where did the idea truly originate? Then we could see where the Sinclairs came into the bloodline hypothesis. Did Niven make the first connection, and if not, from where then? If the original hoax was revealed, why then do some continue on in the deception, either deceiving or being deceived?

If Niven (or anyone) postulates a Jesus bloodline, then of course he is a Christian attacker, or Christ attacker. People have a hard time seeing that Christ is both fully God, and fully man, yet coming from a physical virgin birth. He was not carnal, so to suggest a bloodline emanating from Him is unholy.

Why should it be strange that I notice constant Wolter insinuations coming from Colavito while at the same time I notice that both Wolter and Colavito are in the same boat heading straight for hell? Only Me, it seems awesome to me that you could be so dumb. I'm not a Wolter supporter, since he obviously believes in the bloodline nonsense, too. Still, some of his other findings may be valid.

Only Me
9/3/2013 08:46:33 am

"If the original hoax was revealed, why then do some continue on in the deception, either deceiving or being deceived?" I think Sinclair provided the best answer to that question: money. As he said, books and movies generate money and self-importance.

In answer to your second statement, I find it strange that you would label Jason's work as a fixation or insinuations when all he has done is report the number of public events, podcasts, radio interviews and books Wolter has done to advance the Jesus/Sinclair holy bloodline narrative. He has reported on the behind-the-scenes activity involved with his show and it's widespread influence on an audience that generally won't put forth the effort to research his claims on their own, or actively go into the field to study things for themselves, as you do. Wolter sees Cistercian/Rosicrucian/Templar/Freemason links everywhere, and his show blatantly promotes it. What Jason is doing isn't a fixation or insinuation; it's simply good journalism on a man that encourages disdain toward academic fields and is muddying historical fact with his personal agenda.

Sinclair
9/3/2013 09:02:11 am

Now come on ,this Jesus thing is nothing new. Many books have been written regarding this idea of a Bloodline of Jesus, and its the band wagon effect.Wolter just happens to be one of the most recent to jump on board. The more recent books like Rex Deux, and Holy BVlood Holy Grail are to blame for the interest in this topic

WIKI says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_bloodline

Varika
9/3/2013 05:12:30 pm

Gunn, I would argue that there are sects of Christianity that would not find the concept of Jesus having a family to be an attack on their faith. On the other hand, I've also noticed that you tend to take anyone stating that they believe differently from you as an attack, and often as an attack on Christianity, so I suspect you'll just turn around and insist that those sects are heretics or apostates or something.

Clint Knapp
9/3/2013 06:02:53 pm

"You noticed I garnished my name with the very honorable Sinclair name for this occasion. Way before this blog caught me, I came up with the name Gunn Sinclair because it was the Grandest pen-name name I could come up with...which I still think is true!" - Bob Voyles

If one does not believe and support the Sinclair Bloodline hypothesis, how does one reconcile believing this pseudonym to be so grand an idea or using it as a means to show support for the very man attempting to use DNA evidence to support the bloodline claims? Something does not compute here.

Obviously Bob's going to spend his time now decrying Jason as Anti-God for any sort of explanation or description of anything related to the Bible, though, and we'll all just be sinners going to hell for listening. I'm not sure this is an improvement or not. Suppose it's something different, at least.

In lighter news, my favorite Jesus Bloodline story comes from the pages of a little comic series called Preacher by Garth Ennis in which Jesus survived the crucifixion to have a family with Mary Magdalene and then died some years later when he was run over by an offal cart. His descendants were kept by the Catholic Church and forced to intermarry- forming a series of mentally-challenged messiahs. Am I going to hell for enjoying this fiction any more than another? Probably not. I don't believe in it.

Christopher Randolph
9/4/2013 04:17:38 am

"To suggest that Jesus didn't die at the crucifixion, or make his ascension to Heaven, something that is the basis for the validity of the Shroud of Turin, is a slap in the face of the faithful."

Not if you're a Muslim.

Which reminds me, if there were a Jesus (or Mary and Joseph) bloodline, assuming any of those people existed, wouldn't they more likely be in the West Bank of the Jordan than the Left Bank of Paris..? The bloodline of Jesus would likely get terror-listed at the airport.

How did these people become white Europeans? Is it imagined that most Western Europeans moved there from the Levant, or just this one special case..?

CFC
9/3/2013 07:43:12 am

This article by Nisbet helped me understand some of the nonsense that was part of The Holy Grail in America on the History Channel. Thanks!

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Sinclair
9/3/2013 07:48:54 am

JUST SAYING
Steve StClairs Allies
By the way Niven Sinclair is or was a close friend of Steves, and I believe was a money backer for various projects. Niven also supplies information to Steve for his DNA project. Not sure if Niven funded the DNA project, but I would not be surprised to find he did. Sinclairgate comes to mind.


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Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 09:14:26 am

"Sinclair" AKA Robert James Sinclair must have missed my request above, so I'll go ahead and recount a story for this august group of DNA experts.

This is all explained at www.StClairResearch.com if you look around, but I'll provide more information here as there has been much news regarding Bobbie's DISTINGUISHED academic over the last 2 years.

Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE is at the heart of "Sinclair"s upsettedness with our family's DNA study. "Sinclair", AKA Bobbie, is fond of using all cap letters and often refers to Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE as "THE DISTINGUISHED" Jim Wilson.

When Robert was first a part of our family DNA study, Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE and his then-company EthnoAncestry had discovered a new SNP they called S21. This, Wilson claimed, was proof of descent from the Rosslyn Sinclairs of Da Vinci Code fame. Despite my warnings of hype, several people in our family DNA study bought into this hook, line, and sinker. Bobbie was one of those who decided that, by not acknowledging Wilson's claims, I was attempting to 'hide the truth of the noble one and only Sinclair of Rosslyn Bloodline.' How dare I disagree with Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE. After all, he's not only an academic, he's a geneticist.

You see, people often bring their bias to DNA study just like they do to everything else. By waiting and with further SNP testing, I was able to prove that only one of our lineages was S21. The others who had heard all the hype of this new SNP didn't realize its Most Recent Common Ancestor is over 4,500 years ago, making it impossible that everyone who has it is descended from someone alive in the 1300s. I proved it was hype, but the damage was done.

It appears you attract the very best people, Jason. I see you've also pulled in one Piero Sinclair. He also has decided there's a great conspiracy afoot because I won't yet agree with him that it is 100% certain that Piero and Bobbie are the rightful heirs of our Rosslyn family. He's right. I won't. Not without SNP matches (ask one of your more august DNA expert commentators what those initials stand for).

In fact, I don't make proclamations and that's upsetting to a certain ilk in our wider family. They want to make claims of some sort. But DNA works in probabilities. Zealots don't like probabilities.

Now, please look through the links below. Don't skip any. And keep in mind that Bobbie's claims are based on the word of his guide, Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE, an academic no less. Crabbie, are you reading?

Exaggerations and errors in the promotion of genetic ancestry testing
http://www.genomesunzipped.org/2012/12/exaggerations-and-errors-in-the-promotion-of-genetic-ancestry-testing.php
Those who comment on Jason's blog clearly like to read the comments. Make sure you read the comments about these 2 academics, Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE and Dr. Alistair Moffat, MA (Hons), M.Phil, Cert.Ed.

Britains DNA - Caveat Emptor
http://dna-explained.com/2012/12/20/britains-dna-caveat-emptor/
A well-written critique of Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE and his most recent company, Britain's DNA. Please do your own homework on his former company called EthnoAncestry.

Rector assessed: Moffat blasted over "laughable" scientific claims
http://www.thesaint-online.com/2013/03/rector-assessed-moffat-blasted-over-laughable-scientific-claims
Keep in mind, Moffat and Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE run the website in question.

Abuses of genomic screening, advertising on the BBC and a shocking legal threat
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=5718
Ohhh, a skeptic's blog.

But wait; it gets better.

To claim someone has 'Viking ancestors' is no better than astrology
http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/feb/25/viking-ancestors-astrology


You Might Be a Pict if…
http://dna-explained.com/2013/08/24/you-might-be-a-pict-if

That one is a doozie !!
OOOOPS, the link above points out that the 'DISTINGUISHED' academic forgot to publish a paper on his findings and instead ran straight to the press who, along with a small and gullible crowd of DNA junkies (Bobbie and Piero included), lap it up. The DISTINGUISHED academic is good at marketing his DNA company. Who needs peer review when you've got marketing?

Robert, would you also be so kind at to guide this august group of DNA researchers to Piero's posting on your Facebook site in which he claims, among other things, that 3 generations is not enough in which to have a "non-paternity event", translation: an infidelity or adoption. Anyone who studies statistics will tell you that the chances are the same in every generation.

Then, would you also explain the importance of SNP testing and name-matches to some of the non-DNA experts, if there are any among this august group. Also, please explain the importance of SNP name-matching in making claim

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piero sinclair
9/8/2013 05:27:10 am

Just come across this and I've rarely read such nonsense.
Just to address the penultimate point. I never of course said that three generations were not enough in which to have a Non Paternity Event. Nor did I imply that the chances were not the same in every generation. Unfortunately this is what Steve does. He claims someone has said what they have not said, then argues against what they never said. It is one of his techniques, such as having simultaneously opposing positions on the same topic.
If you want to check out what I actually said, it is on the following link:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sinclair-DNA-Z346/247638732038212

It is titled 'The Bloodline, Why Z346* are descendants of Roslin', or something like it.

Cheers

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Steve St Clair
9/8/2013 11:26:22 am

What follows is a direct lift of Piero's lengthy Facebook proclamation. He clearly says "there is very little chance of a Non Paternity Event (NPE) in that short time."

I know of no other way to interpret this and he provides no further clue as to how he meant it.

"So folks, it’s definite. Z346* Sinclairs are ultimately paternally descended from the Roslin Sinclairs. Bear in mind that there are only three generations between the first Roslin Sinclair and the first Earl of Orkney, and you’ll see there is very little chance of a Non Paternity Event (NPE) in that short time. An NPE is when for some reason the apparent father of a boy in fact isn’t his genetic father, which can occur in a variety of ways, including that the mother ‘played around’."

Piero, were you counting on people not checking your proclamation?

Steve St. Clair
9/8/2013 11:42:19 am

Also, Piero, since you use the work of the DISTINGUISHED Dr. James Wilson, BSc (Hons), D.Phil (Oxon), FRCPE (title lifted from his own website), then you also might want to help us to interpret why he is a good source for your claims given the thoughts from his peers at the many links I posted above.

Cheers

Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 09:20:21 am

Got cut off above... here's the rest (I know you don't want to miss anything I have to say) --


Then, would you also explain the importance of SNP testing and name-matches to some of the non-DNA experts, if there are any, among this august group. Also, please explain the importance of SNP name-matching in making claims of medieval genealogy. After that, could you perhaps list the SNP name matches who share your Z346* SNP? Then would you please show us the records where these names appear as witnesses, etc in medieval records? Thanks so much.

To this group, I suggest you not cherry pick those you respect based on them sounding as skeptical as yourself. While Bobbie is a skeptic on the Prince Henry story (as am I), he's a zealot on his One True and Noble Bloodline and will not listen to anyone who suggests patience and further testing, even in the face of DNA SNP evidence that suggests it's not yet time for pronouncements.

Also to the group on Jason's blog: Making blanket statements that all academics are above reproach is as much a religion as any being bad-mouthed here.

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Sinclair
9/3/2013 09:53:00 am

And there you have it folks from the total WAKO himself lol

Steve says
I was able to prove that only one of our lineages was S21.

S21 is the lineage of the Sinclairs of Caithness and suspected family back to Rosslyn. Now this is a bit awkward to explain but, I'll give it a try. You see Dr Wilson said long ago that he was sure the Sinclair family of Caithness and Orkney were this s21. So in other words all Sinclairs of this line would be s21, but not saying all people with the surname Sinclair were s21. Some Sinclairs are s21 but are not from this line,WHY they are either NPE's ( None paternity events ) or adopted in. There are many other surnames that are s21 also so go figure that over hundreds of years some of these people adopted the name Sinclair A play on words by Steve who apparently is too stupid to figure it all out...but he's a researcher right lol. So any Sinclairs who are NOT s21 obviously to put it bluntly do NOT belong to this line and in FACT are NOT Sinclairs of that line by blood. I fail to see what is so difficult to figure out here. Yes see the CAPS STEVE so idiots like you can maybe clue in.
Steve is obviousluy upset by Dr Wilsons opinion,why because it does not go along with what Steve wants to hear. All the other blither is just that.

All Sinclairs of the Caithness and Orkney Sinclair line are indeed s21 as Dr Wilson said. The DNA of this family is found in Caithness,Orkney and Shetland all the lands of the Sinclair family, the dominant dna for Sinclair

Obviously none of this is of any importance to the readers here unless you happen to be a Sinclair. Not sure why Steve is interested as he is not

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Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 02:16:12 pm

Bobbie wrote, 'Steve is obviousluy [sic] upset by Dr Wilsons [sic] opinion,why because it does not go along with what Steve wants to hear. All the other blither is just that.'

I am upset with Dr. Wilson because -

1) He is more interested in marketing than in science - This method of making everything into bite-size, dumbed-down "DNA products" is not serving science or learning. It's lining Wilson's and Moffat's pockets. DNA is complicated and not easy for the masses to understand. But the masses are where the money is, so they market to them. These bite-sized packages don't promote further learning and they don't enroll people into a lengthy study. Instead, they give the impression that you'll know all you need to know if you have Wilson's "Red Hair Gene." Lengthy study is the way this continues to add value to the human race and to genealogy.

1b) He's in such a hurry to sell these "bite sized products" that he was willing to skip peer review so he could rush his branded SNP test to market. It was already available at Family Tree DNA.

2) He chats like a school girl about peoples' private DNA via email to people like you, who cut and pasted the email messages onto your public Facebook page. This is the DISTINGUISHED academic sharing private information with a loose cannon. This prompted our group to write a letter to the top staff of Edinburgh University complaining about Wilson's loose methods with private DNA.

3) The huge volume of Wilson's and Moffat's negative press is chasing people away from DNA testing. All family studies are having trouble getting participation from the UK. This large amount of negative press is making it even more difficult to recruit where we're weakest.

Sinclair
9/3/2013 04:49:48 pm

Steve says once again:
This prompted our group to write a letter to the top staff of Edinburgh University complaining about Wilson's loose methods with private DNA.

This is interesting, you admitting to be a RAT, a cry baby, a squealer. or better a low life. By our group you really mean you. This just shows how low you have gone and will go. I do hope for your sake you never end up in the slammer. Your outright attack on Wilson is a desparate mans cowardess attempt to cause harm.

Steve St Clair
9/3/2013 05:25:11 pm

Drako wrote, "By our group you really mean you."

No Bobbie, I mean our group. We have a group of 4 people who lead the DNA study and I trust their counsel on important matters such as what we should do about a "DISTINGUISHED" academic slamming someone's private DNA via Bobbie's very public Facebook site.

This was not a matter we took lightly. We consulted other academics about it and took over a week to craft our letters to Edinburgh University. I'm quite sure Wilson knows we did this. We didn't attempt to hide it from anyone. It was the right thing to do.

Drako wrote, 'Your outright attack on Wilson is a desparate [sic] mans cowardess [sic] attempt to cause harm.'

There is a difference between 'attack' and presentation of the facts. Your Facebook page was set to "public" Drako. I copied and pasted regularly and still have in my possession the racist and homophobic statements, the libelous attacks, and the outright lies.

Keeping these isn't 'attacking' you. It's a fact that you posted these things during your many public rants. They come in handy from time to time.

Only Me
9/3/2013 10:35:39 am

Speaking for myself, I'm far and away NO expert in DNA. I can, however, understand the points being made from both sides of the debate. Since I'm no expert, I'm content to simply read the material you've provided, abstain from weighing in and await the final verdict. DNA is amazingly complex, and we learn more about it as we explore.

I don't know who made a blanket statement that all academics are above reproach, but that notion is undeniably stupid. They're just as prone to mistakes and bias as everyone else; degrees can't remove the imperfections of humanity. I'm just of the opinion that higher education should not be seen as a bane.

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Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 09:26:01 am

Gunn Sinclair wrote - "Hi Steve! I was hoping you'd show up. The Wolter fixation goes on. By the way, would you mind clarifying your own position on the so-called Bloodline? I'm wondering how much of this actually may come from Sinclairs, and how much is generated in this particular blog in honor of Wolter."

Gunn, my position on a bloodline is that there is, as yet, no evidence of one. Most people who make claims of a bloodline say it travelled through the female (mtDNA) line. That rules out such a bloodline sticking with any particular surname as those transferred in the male line.

The notion of the Sinclairs being part of any bloodline likely started with the Masons.

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Gunn
9/3/2013 11:49:34 am

Steve, do you think it is likely, or unlikely, that there is a so-called Jesus bloodline? Answering this could either take some heat off you or else put more on....

I don't understand why Masons would encourage the idea of a Jesus bloodline if they were Christians. The concept goes against the very grain of Christianity, divinity, holiness, etc., yet many of America's forefathers were both Freemasons and Christians. I can't imagine so many followers of Christ turning on Him.

But then, I realize that many features at Rosslyn Chapel aren't Christian, either, and that the chapel seems to nicely bridge the imaginary gap between the ending of the Templars and the beginning of the Freemasons. Yet there is this dichotomy.

I don't wish to put you on the spot, but can you add to why you think Masons may have started the Jesus-bloodline travesty, and perhaps when? Thanks.

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Steve St Clair
9/3/2013 01:54:24 pm

Hi Gunn,

'Taking the heat off' myself is of no concern to me. I think it unlikely there is a Jesus bloodline.

As to the Masons and their interest in a bloodline, we too often tar entire groups. I've met Masons who had no idea of how Freemasonry began, even the accepted history. In much the same way, if there were some people creating fake histories as was the norm among social groups of the time, then that doesn't mean the entire organization was embracing this.

In much the same way, I think the stories of Templars in Scotland is totally overblown. For instance, they were not at Bannockburn.

A study of the Templar trial records and business records shows that the Templars of Scotland were heavily involved in raising sheep and farming. They didn't spend all their time plotting the downfall of the Catholic church.

In much the same way, many point out that the Sinclairs testified against the Templars in Scotland. This is true, but you've got to read the facts. ONE Sinclair testified against them. Then, that Sinclair's father testified ON BEHALF OF one Templar and said that he had seen the man praying reverently and could attest that he was a 'good Christian.'

Gunn, I'd be surprised if all Masons of any period were devout Christians. In fact, I did a little digging on that subject -

Thomas Paine was a founding father, a Mason, and an atheist.

Thomas Jefferson had connections to the Masons. He was a Diest.

Benjamin Franklin was a Mason.
He was also a Diest. "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches."

I have no proof the Masons started the Jesus-bloodline stories. But I have read several authors who think this is the case.

Jason Colavito link
9/3/2013 01:57:55 pm

So far as I can determine, the oldest reference to Henry Sinclair in conjunction with the "Holy Bloodline" and the Knights Templar is Andrew Sinclair's 1992 book "The Sword and the Grail." Since the "Holy Bloodline" is largely a modern invention, I can't imagine that the Masons have anything to do with promoting its fictitious history.

Thane
9/3/2013 02:11:43 pm

Jason, don't forget Holy Blood, Holy Grail published in 1982. The Templars were linked to the Jesus Bloodline in that hoax. The entire premise was that there exists a Jesus Bloodline.

Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 02:21:20 pm

Agreed Thane, but Jason is right that "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" made no mention of Henry Sinclair coming to the New World.

Thane
9/3/2013 02:38:11 pm

But the Sinclairs were mentioned, right? It's been years since I read it so I don't recall some details.

thanks

Steve St. Clair
9/3/2013 03:22:16 pm

They were mentioned Thane. In my "Special Illustrated Edition with exclusive new material" ISBN 10: 0-385-34001-X, Bobbie...er... I mean the Sinclair family, is mentioned on pages 178, 210, and 453.

Page 210 is the start of the Rosslyn Chapel "mysteries."

Overall, there are very few mentions of the Sinclairs in this book. It's hard to believe it led to so much attention on our family.

Sinclair
9/3/2013 04:39:41 pm

Steve StClair says:
Overall, there are very few mentions of the Sinclairs in this book. It's hard to believe it led to so much attention on our family.

Please Steve tell us all just how this is your family. Tell me how your DNA proves this or perhapes a paper trail. You are no part of the Sinclair Family to which you refer. absolutly a LIE. Tell the truth for once in your life please.You dare to state our family knowing very well your as phoney as a 3 dollar bill. Your line took the name in America, and the proof is you have NO DNA matches to any Sinclair/StClair /Sinkler or any other spelling of the name anywhere in Scotland let alone the UK.

So plainly are you a Sinclair related to Prince Henry or any Sinclair of Scotland...YES or NO

Steve St Clair
9/3/2013 05:05:05 pm

This is the kind of reasoned discussion you wanted, right Jason?

My nickname for Robert James Sinclair for over a year now has been Drako. Remember the Malfoy family in the Harry Potter books and movies? They were "Purebloods" and anyone not a Pureblood was looked down upon. Bobbie has appointed himself the One True and Noble Descendant of the Rosslyn Sinclairs of Da Vinci Code Fame.

Drako wrote, "So plainly are you a Sinclair related to Prince Henry or any Sinclair of Scotland...YES or NO"

I'll break this point into two parts to answer it accurately. Am I related to Prince Henry Sinclair? About 4,000 years ago. Bobbie can say he MIGHT be related to Prince Henry Sinclair between 1600 and 2,800 years ago. More on the SNP that determines this time to most recent common ancestor at this link -http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/lineages-Z346-DNA.html
Sorry Drako, without a more recent SNP, you can't even begin to prove any more recent connection than that.

Am I related to any Sinclair of Scotland? We don't have enough data to determine the answer to that question. A new area of research is underway in a geography heretofore unexplored. If your idol, Dr. James Wilson has not poisoned the ground there, then it's VERY likely I'll have a close SNP-based relation in Scotland within the year.

As you will soon learn, Drako refers to himself as the "Original" line of the Sinclair family. I disproved that BS in 2013. You can read about the results here -
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/L11-P310-Herdmanston.html

The "Original" line of the Saint-Clair family in Scotland per written documents was the Herdmanston line. Bobbie doesn't relate to this Lineage in our family. Nor does my YDNA.

Oh, and they have some very interesting DNA SNP matches like the de Mandeville family. Yes, the very family who were the founders of the Temple Church in London. The also have DNA SNP matches with the Wishart family. That's the family who were witnesses to the Rosslyn family's being granted Rosslyn by King Alexander III.

Only Me
9/3/2013 06:02:31 pm

Steve, I read the articles you linked to, and, well....wow, just wow. Very revealing backstory there.

If I understand Mark Thomas's explanation on DNA properly, then Robert's correct on the progenitor angle, but you're also correct in your genealogical results for the same reason. And, as Thomas said," if genealogical research (parish records, surnames, etc.) suggests that two men share a common male line ancestor in the 16th century, the Y chromosome could be used to support or reject this claim".

At this point, I don't fully understand the reason to separate all Sinclair/St. Clair members into the are and are nots.

Sinclair
9/3/2013 06:38:02 pm

Steve says

L11-P310-Herdmanston.html

The "Original" line of the Saint-Clair family in Scotland per written documents was the Herdmanston line. Bobbie doesn't relate to this Lineage in our family. Nor does my YDNA.( your dna relates to no Sinclairs except your own group in America )

There is no real proof that this is the correct dna for herdmanston, I have not seen one single thread of evidence its all on your say so.

As far as this L11/p310 being the SNP for the Sinclairs ,well highly impossable. You see the StClair family went north to Orkney,Shetland and Caithness were the name eventually changed to Sinclair. The dominent dna for Sinclairs in these areas is proven beyond any doubt to be s21. If your idea of this group of p310 StClairs is even remotely true then were is the Sinclair p310 in these areas, there is NOT one single Sinclair with this snp in the North...NOT ONE...........That in itself is as they say is proof in the pudding

So what have we achieved through all this discussion

Steve StClair admittedly has NO Sinclair connections in the UK lol
Prince Henry Sinclair story is just that a story
The Blood line of Jesus although unproven is in my opinion a story
Sinclair DNA of the Sinclairs of Roslin is s21

Discussion over, I think I have made my point

Thank you Jason for allowing this rediculous exchange to go on.

Steve St. Clair
9/4/2013 01:18:06 am

But Bobbie, we're not done. You haven't addressed or even mentioned the information at those 6 links I put up regarding the methods of your main source.

By the way, up above you said ALL Sinclairs in northern Scotland are related to your group. This is not true. The diligent work of real researchers has led to a different SNP in the Shetlands, and another (Z9) in a titled participant.

Some people are prone to making proclamations before the research is done. The UK is terribly under-sampled. France is practically barren. Samples from the former British colonies (especially the US and Canada) overwhelmingly outweigh all other countries. I've said repeatedly that size doesn't matter in this work. The Herdmanston discovery is proof of that. A small group with no previously known "center" of their DNA are now known to be the descendants of the oldest Saint-Clairs in Scotland. Heck, you might even call them the "ORIGINAL" line.

While I agree the dominant SNP in Orkney, Shetland and Caithness among Sinclairs is Z346*, there's still that nagging lack of some specific SNP matches in the DNA results or in medieval records. That could be solved at any time, but I wouldn't put on your little party hat just yet.

Bobbie posted, "There is no real proof that this is the correct dna [sic] for herdmanston,[sic] I have not seen one single thread of evidence its all on your say so."

Nor will you, Drako. You see, Drako is fond of calling up people who don't match his DNA and telling them they must be the result of a cheating wife or an adoption. So now when I test people I tend to do it anonymously. A final point, Drako. You're not a member of our DNA study. You got voted out by the group. I don't share or discuss people's detailed private DNA results in public outside of our project. I leave that to you and the "DISTINGUISHED" Dr. Wilson.

Sinclair
9/4/2013 02:32:43 am

Steve you go on like a mindless child,

Steve has the tendency to tell lies and as he goes on they get bigger and BIGGER.

I have never called asnyone to tell them they were the result of a cheating wife or whatever he claims.
Dr Wilson discussed no ones dna publicly. I posted part of a PRIVATE email exchange between Wilson and myself, an email that ( I ) should have kept private and I accept total resposibility for this Dr Wilson had nothing to do with it. That didnt stop the moungrel steve from jumping all over Wilson though. And what was in the email....The truth of another persons dna ,Steves old partner, another person who made all sorts of claims to fame only to be proven he was NOT a Sinclair at all due to an early adoption. I think Steve felt threatened over it all that he would be exposed next.

STEVE said
By the way, up above you said ALL Sinclairs in northern Scotland are related to your group. This is not true. The diligent work of real researchers has led to a different SNP in the Shetlands, and another (Z9) in a titled participant.

This is a laugh. A person in my group paid for the SNP testing of this Titled Sinclair, by the and this person has NO matches for his dna. As I stated above Some people with the name Sinclair are in fact s21 but further testing showed they do not match snps with the main s21 group of Z346. WHY as I said again NPE's or possible addoption or whatever,But obviously they are not related to the Sinclairs,TITLED or not. ALL Sinclairs Steve key word SINCLAIR, if you do not match then obviously the use of the key word is not used correctly

Making an announcement of some great discovery such as the Herdmanston StClairs with nothing to back it up is the same as you accuse Wilson of is it not. Just throwing crap out there to the public in the hopes that everyone will think your some great researcher. Anyone can make any suggestion with nothing to back them up, but only a fool would do so. Congratulations FOOL, if you say its true it surely must be....What a Joke

Gunn link
9/4/2013 06:45:20 am

Jason said: "...the "Holy Bloodline" is largely a modern invention."

Thanks. This is what I wonder about the most in this whole Sinclair/Templar exchange.

So then, is it true that in the mid-Fourteenth century, there was probably no connection to the Knights Templar and of a belief in a Jesus bloodline?

Well, we know that some are making the connection, but only in modern times, then, falsely?

Not to worry...I brought him up this time myself.

Steve has publicly said he doubts a Jesus bloodline, while others are still proclaiming a bloodline. Not just a bloodline, but a bloodline connected to the Templars' ideology? I guess this was worth looking at again.

At least we can now separate the bloodline mischief from both Templars and Sinclairs, right? Historically speaking? So then, probably Henry Sinclair (Glooscap) at Vinland didn't believe in a Jesus bloodline, right?

Or...did I almost get it right? Who are we going to believe, the Native Americans or Jason. Ha! Ha!

Al West link
9/3/2013 09:52:32 am

"As a matter of fact, Sanskrit has plenty of irregular verbs and other irregular constructions that a “perfect” language would not possess."

Well, that's what you think would constitute imperfection, but if you start out with the a priori position that Sanskrit is the perfect language, then its supposed imperfections become merely aspects of perfection.

Hindu fundamentalism is actually terrifying stuff, as I expect you know. Hindutvavali believe in the most outrageous absurdities, and the depressing thing is that many of these people are well-educated and upper or upper-middle class - and in some cases, they manage to get a grip on power and use it to further a Hindutva agenda. The classic case of this is Narendra Modi, infamous for his possible role in the 2002 anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat. It starts with claiming that the Harappan script encodes quantum physics in a combined Aryan-Dravidian language, proceeds through claims that Sanskrit is the oldest and greatest language on the planet, and ends with people dying horribly.

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Elian Gonzalez
9/3/2013 02:50:19 pm

Oh please. Everyone knows it's Homeric Greek that is perfect and has an alien origin.

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Only Me
9/3/2013 07:12:50 pm

And here I thought mathematics would be the perfect language...since it's universal, ya know?

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Mike Fedele
9/4/2013 10:24:28 am

Jason,

I remember you saying you grew up in Auburn NY. My Dad did as well and I remember him telling me of "ball lightning" waves when he was about 7 or 8..1929 or 1930. I was a college physics major and ball lightning was always an interesting topic..but I could not find any reports from the day. He said the sightings were next to Owasco lake during storms.....I honestly can't recall any reports of ball lightning in the Finger Lakes in the 40 years I have lived in these parts...

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Jason Colavito link
9/4/2013 10:28:10 am

I can't say that I know of documented reports, but my late grandmother, who died in 1997, frequently told of a frightening night in the 1950s or 1960s when an orb of ball lightning passed through her house.

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Mike Fedele
9/5/2013 08:35:44 am

Thanks Jason. Now I'll wait for an episode on Ancient Aliens or America Unearthed which says ball lighning either is a mini black hole which Aliens used to get to Earth or is a result of the Knights Templar..ha ha

Steve St. Clair
9/4/2013 12:59:26 pm

So, Jason...

Did you in any way encourage Robert James Sinclair AKA "Sinclair" to comment on this blog post? He's only commented on 1 that I've seen.

Then, he suddenly shows up after you mention all the emails you're getting from Sinclairs "embarrassed" by the H2 Holy Bloodline theme.

Did you need to stir up some controversy?

Please note, I'm asking this question very specifically so as to leave very little wiggle room. Was it your idea to encourage Robert James Sinclair's comments on this specific blog post?

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Jason Colavito link
9/4/2013 01:09:25 pm

I do not know Robert James Sinclair, or, for that matter, any Sinclairs. I do not solicit comments for this blog, nor have I ever done so. (Frankly, if I did, they'd be more on-topic more frequently.) He (or at least someone claiming to be a Robert Sinclair) was among those who emailed me after my initial blog post, along with many, many others. (I had to check since I can't keep all the various Sinclairs straight.) Frankly, if you hadn't asked I never would have connected that Sinclair email to the above comments.

I'm not quite sure what controversy you think I intended to "stir up," given that I did not write the Sinclair-themed blog post to which I linked above and the discussion of which was the subject of only 1/3 of my own above blog post. Apparently no one cares about Sanskrit fundamentalism or Santa Claus, both of which I find more interesting that your DNA.

I presume he "showed up" because I had linked to the same blog post in my weekly newsletter on Sunday and he therefore came to see the following discussion here on my blog.

Everything isn't a conspiracy, nor am I part of any network of Sinclair deniers out to get you.

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Sinclair
9/4/2013 04:17:05 pm

WOW Steve you really are losing it. Its as Jason says Steve and no other way.....

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Joe
9/4/2013 03:13:39 pm

This argument has to be one of the most ridiculous I have seen on this blog. It is like watching two children fighting over a toy that no one else really cares about. I understand the distinct argument that both of you are presenting about who the real is a real Sinclair. But in the end does it really matter whom is a “true” descendent of a minor Earl from the middle ages? Not to pick apart individual arguments but I do have to ask a question to Steve. You specifically argued against the other Sinclair that you are about the science and the research. That his team is about marketing, that they ignore the science to sell the “story”. Yet you are the one who agreed to appear with Scott Wolter on “American Unearthed”, it is your website that covers the Jesus Bloodline when discussing your DNA research project. So is it really about the science or is it really selling the Sinclair story that you are more concerned with. Also I do not think that you are able to claim the adult / mature argument when part of your counter argument is to name call and belittle the other person.

I still find it amazing that the both of you expend so much time and effort in debating a possible ancestor. Maybe you should spend more time trying to do significant things in your own life.

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Steve St Clair
9/4/2013 04:13:12 pm

Lovely Joe,

Thanks so very much for your opinion.

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Sinclair
9/4/2013 04:14:45 pm

Thank you for your comments Joe. Yes I spend far too much time following Steve around the net to counter all his tales, WHY because he is claiming other peoples genealogical family as his own. This obviously means nothing to you and I do understand that. I can say my line is from Caithness and 99.9 percent sure of belonging. Then we have, not only Steve but many others who carry the name Sinclair but honestly do not relate to this particular family. But that does not stop them from dragging the Sinclair name though the mud with rediculous storys and claims of fame. The Clan Sinclair CLAN is a social club or association made up of people with the surname Sinclair/StClair and various spellings. Anyone with the name can join or others related. Thats all fine and dandy, but when it comes to genealogy,that cuts to the core and I have actually warned people that if they want to stay a Sinclair then do not do the dna test . Most of the high upetty Sinclairs within CLAN Sinclair have done a dna test , guess what none of them relate to each other..now go figure that one. Almost all of them are not related to the Sinclair family that they all claim. Yes they are Sinclairs their birth cert says so, but again no relation to the Sinclairs in Scotland. Its like a Wendys burger in a MacDonalds wrapper...may be better or may be worse but their not the same and not from the same restaurant

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Al West link
9/4/2013 07:23:18 pm

Oh, it's all so rediculous!

"Yes they are Sinclairs their birth cert says so, but again no relation to the Sinclairs in Scotland. Its like a Wendys burger in a MacDonalds wrapper...may be better or may be worse but their not the same and not from the same restaurant"

The whole feud is over whether *someone else* has Wendy's or McDonald's inside their wrapper. It's so incredibly moronic that reading the things you and the other Sinclairs have written has made my brain swell and come out of my ears like cream cheese. You - and anyone else obsessed with Sinclair-ness seriously need to find a new hobby, because the one you've got is clearly a waste of time, effort, money, and sense.

Matt Mc
9/5/2013 12:55:45 am

Well said Joe

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Steve St. Clair
9/4/2013 05:07:39 pm

Bobbie, it's hard enough for me to keep up with all your complaints. I can't imagine what this groups thinks of you. Now you're veering over to slamming the Clan Sinclair and its leadership. We weren't even talking about that.

Yes, you've warned tons of clan members not to do the DNA test. Yet we're up over 250 members. And somehow it's still a strong clan association.

The Clan Sinclair maintains a Yahoo group that Robbie got kicked out of for just this type of behavior. That was group #7 he got booted from.

Quite right, Bobbie. Our 12 or so family lineages don't share a common ancestor for over 2,000 years. Some don't share one for over 15,000 years. But this makes sense for a name that is a place name. There were many places in France named some derivation of Saint-Clair. That's never been good enough for you. You want to claim there is only one true family bloodline, Drako. That of the Rosslyn family. And you want it pronounced that you are it. And I won't do it because it's not proven. DNA is probabilities. But that's not good enough for you.

You've spread your hatred all over the Internet. You're still spreading it every chance you get.

You're so completely obsessed by this that your own brother won't speak to you any more. He actually called me to find out what was the matter with you.

What precisely the hell do you want Robert James Sinclar??!!

Give us a numbered list right here in public. Make sure you include that, in your opinion, the Clan Sinclair is merely a social club. But be precise about what you think the Clan Sinclair should become. Should all those who don't match your precise DNA be kicked out of the Clan Sinclair? Should anyone who is not Z346* be banned from wearing the family kilt? Are we allowed to play Scottish music in our homes? Make sure you name names and your desired outcome. Be specific.

Perhaps you could draft a legal document that has a specific statement of our NOT being members of the One True and Holy Rosslyn Lineage and make a law that we all have to sign it.

Perhaps we can all be banned from ever visiting Scotland again.

Be precise Drako. Time to man up and state with great specificity that very long list of what precisely you want.

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Sinclair
9/4/2013 05:39:39 pm

As you can see Steve is off his meds again. I think you posted on the wrong list there Steve.

Same old repetitive lies and attacks. Please SEEK HELP

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Sinclair
9/4/2013 06:02:44 pm

Sinclairgate.......I have no problem with what the CLAN is all about, great fun, and many people enjoy it. I did my DNA Steve and am open to what anyone can say or prove about my genealogy. My line were a bunch of farm workers in Caithness, but at least they were there lol...Your stuck in America and thats whats eating you up, right SPUD

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Steve St Clair
9/4/2013 06:14:53 pm

So, Drako isn't going to clarify his complaints.

He's not going to address the 6 links I posted which discuss his main source of information, Dr. James Wilson and the S21 SNP. He also didn't bother to discuss why Wilson, chief scientist at BritainsDNA.com, forgot to do peer review on his latest breathless pronouncement.

He will not address nor clarify his stance on the fact that the derivatives of the Saint-Clair surname are based on place names and that there is not only One Holy Begat By Mary Magdalene bloodline in our family.

He will not, as I asked, list the SNP name matches who share his Z346* SNP, nor will he show us any medieval manuscripts which connect him to these names.

The one thing we've clearly established is that Bobbie did in fact post emails to his public Facebook site which were from a founder and chief scientist (Dr. James Wilson) of a DNA company who should not have been discussing other peoples' DNA with anyone.

I know Joe finds all this ridiculous, but a few people on this list seemed energized by "Sinclair" the second they realized he might add support to their opinion of a guest of Scott W. on that hated H2. 'Any enemy of my enemy is my friend,' right?

With Tara gone, Drako fits right in.

Sinclair
9/8/2013 09:08:05 am

Steve StClair? mentions Name matching,between StClair of Herdmanston and Mandeville. Both being P310+ and so hey they must be related as Mandeville had close ties with StClair some 740 years ago.Well Steve likes to throw out this info without doing any real research and again as usuall these two surnames are most likely NOT related till WAY befor the use of surnames. Using this as some sort of proof that StClair is indeed the StClairs of Herdmanston or that they maybe descend from Mandeville is totally rediculous. The STR markers between these two is a huge difference and simply says what it is.......NOT related at all in the time frame that Steve is trying to connect them to. This is what I have been told by experts in the field, and no not Wilson lol So Steves only proof is some guy who wishes to remain anonymous, in other words its all just Steves say so LMAO

This information is of course only of use to the Sinclairs of which there are a few followers here. Steve STOP the GRANDSTANDING in otherwords the bullshit

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Steve St Clair
9/8/2013 11:30:31 am

Bobbie wrote - "This is what I have been told by experts in the field..."

To be taken seriously this forum, Bobbie, you need to quote a source and point at link so we can check your work.

And you need to answer the four points above.

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piero sinclair
9/8/2013 12:50:21 pm

Steve, having read the above, and now your previous posts on this site, how on earth are you in a position to advise anybody how to be taken seriously on it?
And really, are YOU the person to criticize others about not being able to check their work?
It just won't do just to throw other people's accusations against you back in their face. It's YOU who have to come up with answers, and your techniques for avoiding doing this must now be becoming obvious. Your favourite ploy is to say someone has said something they haven't, and so the discussion gets distracted into people having to explain exactly what they did say.
To be fair it's not entirely your fault. The Sinclair Myths are an industry, and the clan must be satisfied. The Earl himself is involved, as per his recent visit to Italy to meet a 'descendant' of Zeno. Unfortunately you're not too smart, so your site, the amusingly named 'St Clair Research', is a complete shambles.
It's been pointed out on this (Jason's) site that you're able to hold opposite views simultaneously on the same topic on different blogs, but in your discussion of Z346* you have conflicting views in the same block of text! And your 'arguments' are absolutely absurd. You seem to have conflated the age of Z346* with the age of the distinctive group of Caithness and Northern Isles Sinclairs who are a subset of it. To get to this though you'd have to wade through a lot of specious waffle designed to put people off the scent.
As someone had pointed out, your Herdmanston piece suffers from the same faults, including what you've accused 'Sinclair' of doing, eg providing absolutely no evidence and by the way writing a piece full of detailed nonsense whose key points, where they can be detected, are purely on your say-so.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the alternative plausible scenario I asked you for which would explain the data on the Z346* Sinclairs. I've asked you twice, and as yet no reply. Could it be because there isn't any?

Steve St Clair
9/8/2013 03:30:45 pm

Piero, you supremely arrogant Brit, you will never answer the points I made about one of your chief pieces of evidence, will you? I speak of the DISTINGUISHED Dr. James Wilson. And you can try to throw me off the sent, but I purposefully made this entire comment thread all about a particular academic very early in this thread. So, try as you might, you can't throw anyone off that.

Can you and your cohort, Bobbie, please answer my point. Your DISTINGUISHED academic is a mess. It's a simple process in academic circles -

1. You present a bunch of BS primarily based on the credentials of an academic.

2. I'm easily able to blow holes in the methodology of your academic.

3. You attempt to divert attention away from the primary question in this thread.

4. You lose, Piero.

Dodge and weave all you want. Either back up the posting you put onto Robbie's Hatebook site, or shut your mouth.

In Piero's lengthy Facebook proclamation. He clearly says "there is very little chance of a Non Paternity Event (NPE) in that short time." Read the comments above and you'll see the pertinent quote from our arrogant Brit.

Here's the "alternative plausible scenario, Piero (or whatever your real name is) - There could have been a NPE in the 3 generations you, yourself point out. Or is that too short a period for a NPE?

I haven't conflated the age of Z346* with anything. My web page on the aptly named StClairResearch.com website explains it all quite well.

And why won't ANY of you answer the lack of SNP matches with convergent surnames in medieval records ????? More dodging and weaving.

Now it's your turn to man up, Piero. Answer the questions I posted.

Sinclair
9/8/2013 04:11:49 pm

HAHAH Steve I have learned to not name a source to you ,as all you would do is call that person names and try and belittle them as you do everyone else. Anyone who knows anything about dna knows Im correct. I went to someone else for a different opinion and got the same one I had. Your work is absolutly full of flaws and assumptions.

Piero, nice work and I would say do not waist your time on such a fool. He has been proven wrong on most of his research starting from the beginning. A desperate man who for some reason will not give up trying to claim to fit into this family.All you have to do is look at WHO is or was behind him in all these ficticious claims.A fancy web page does not in any way make this idiot right or a Sinclair.

Steve is in Marketing so knows all the little sales tricks to screw with your mind...a true salesman

Steve St Clair
9/8/2013 04:59:39 pm

God this gets tiresome. Drako claims I'm "A desperate man who for some reason will not give up trying to claim to fit into this family." Knowing the pure blood mentality of Drako, he probably means I'm trying to claim I'm related to the One True Pure Begat By Mary Madeline Rosslyn Line. I've been very clear about my known genealogy and it's published on our StClairResearch.com website at this link where it's been for years -
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/groupingsVa.html
The precise genealogy work is here -
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/groupingsVa-b.html

Unlike Drako and Piero, I don't publish a genealogy back to some distant time. Those are almost always a fiction. Too many fake records, too many non-paternity events. But I'm sure it makes Piero feel very good about himself to imagine he's connected to royalty.

My work is not full of "flaws and assumptions" Drako. Given that you're saying it is, then it's incumbent upon you to prove that it is.

Unfortunately, Piero, you're not too smart, so your posting on Drako's Hatebook site is a complete shambles. Almost any genealogy that attempts to do what you've done in connecting back to very early medieval times using paper records is a train wreck, fervently believed by a desperate person.

Of course you, like so many others before you, posted not a single reference that can be checked. No footnotes whatsoever.

Drako wrote, 'I have learned to not name a source…'

That's the easy way out Drako. If you look through the St. Clair / Sinclair DNA website, you'll see extensive sources quoted. Both you and "Piero" conveniently neglect to do that in everything you write.

krudedog
9/8/2013 06:43:21 pm

So does anyone have any ideas how the Nixon administration could have obtained photographs of Santa Claus looking at the golden disk that was launched with Voyager that wasn't built and launched until the Carter administration? You think this may end up on a future AA episode?

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Only Me
9/8/2013 06:52:33 pm

Duh! Time travel!

Because aliens are disembodied consciousnesses from alternate dimensions, that just so happened to travel from their secret bases on the moon, Venus and Nibiru, into the future via wormholes and stargates, just to manipulate our DNA, for the purpose of creating cheap labor and breeding stock.

There's more, but seriously, haven't you been watching AA? :0)

Reply
piero sinclair
9/8/2013 08:57:14 pm

What did I say? The same techniques being used yet again. I say you're not smart, so you say I'm not smart. I say your site is a shambles, so you say my article on Rob's Facebook site is a shambles.
And then the one about saying someone has said something that they haven't and then arguing against it? In this case one of these falsehoods has been answered above, but that doesn't stop you repeating it yet again.
But 'Sinclair's advice is good. It's better to ignore you.

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Steve St Clair
9/9/2013 12:45:16 am

In Piero's lengthy Facebook proclamation on Drako's Hatebook site, he clearly says "there is very little chance of a Non Paternity Event (NPE) in that short time." Now he won't answer to it.

Better yet, Piero, why aren't you sharing that wonderful piece of scholarship, sans Footnotes as you've posted it, with your U106 Yahoo group? Charles will have a field day with that one.

I agree, you should ignore me Piero. But you can't. You love to have the last word, don't you.

Reply
piero sinclair
9/9/2013 03:52:30 am

Well, since you're actually inviting me to reply to you.
There IS little chance of an NPE in just 3 generations, as opposed for instance to 20. That doesn't imply that the chances per generation are not generally equal. How dense can you be? It's ridiculous I'm having to explain something so simple.

So you can have the last word Steve; it'll be more deceit, distraction and name-calling as per usual.

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Steve St Clair
9/9/2013 04:29:51 am

A good way to explain probabilities and statistics to someone who clearly doesn't understand them is to compare to dice. The outcome of a throw of a die (dice) is the same for each throw of that die. If you're looking to roll a 5, for instance, the chances are 1/6 that you will roll a 5. It doesn't matter if you've rolled 20 times and hit every other number but 5 multiple times. The chances of you rolling a 5 on that next throw are still 1 in 6.

If, as you claim, you do understand the statistical probability of a non-paternity event in each generation versus multiple generations, can we look to you to correct that part of the pronouncement you posted on Bobbie's Hatebook site? It clearly indicates that you think 3 generations is too short to have a NPE.

A good discussion of basic probabilities -
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/math/probas.html#c1

Dice as an example -
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/math/dice.html

Matt Mc
9/9/2013 05:13:46 am

I bet the Sinclair/St Clair family reunion is a blast.

Do other families with "fancy" lineages have the same kind of arguments? Cause this is really ridiculous and honestly I feel embarrassed for all those who claim to be of the Sinclair/St Clair lineage, not a great way to honor a namesake. Arguing childishly and name calling around the internet.

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Steve St Clair
9/9/2013 05:38:29 am

You'd be shocked Matt. I've seen at least 8 families have blowups of similar proportions. Usually they're contained on a family website, but in our case Robbie follows me around the web looking for any opportunity to throw jabs. Piero seems to be joining in the fun.

Many people prefer to let this happen and not engage. I've found that only makes things worse. Readers will make up their own minds.

These Royal Sinclair "comment squabbles," now on approximately 10 different chat boards and social sites, actually provide a good way for people considering DNA testing to understand what it's all about. By that I mean what all the pros and cons are. Our sign-ups in the Sinclair DNA study continue at a nice pace. We've experience zero slow down based on visible sessions like this.

Thanks for your opinion Matt.

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Matt Mc
9/9/2013 05:56:47 am

I understand what you are saying.

I am more just surprised that a family of such great "honor" would act publicly like this. One a family website or lineage site that makes perfect sense, lets face it families don't always get along.

I am just surprised that a family of royal heritage is acting like children so publicly. Maybe Bravo should make a show out of it THE REAL LINEAGE OF THE SINCLAIRS for this behavior is along the same lines as all the spoiled rich housewives they like to showcase.

Makes me very happy that I am adopted into a Irish family that has no idea of their own heritage because the last name was changed at the Philadelphia port when the patriarch first left Ireland when they came to America fleeing the potato famine and the patriarch died in a mine collapse before anyone recorded where he came from.

Funny thing is my working class "mutt" family as dysfunctional as we are would never behave in public in this manner. To each their own as people say. It seems more like you all just enjoy arguing and posturing.

And Steve this is not directed at you but rather your whole lot and no need to thank me for my opinion since this is Jason's website.

Paul Cargile
9/9/2013 05:41:32 am

Thanks for the good laugh, Matt.

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piero sinclair
9/9/2013 05:41:06 am

As I thought, you're an idiot.
For each throw the chances are one in six. But in 3 generations you have three goes. You are looking, say, to score a 4 (or an NPE) either in the first throw, or in the second throw, or in the third throw. In this case to get the probability of scoring 4 in any one of those three goes, you add the probabilities, eg 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6, which equals 3/6, or 50% probability for three generations, as opposed to 1 in 6 for one generation.
It should be instinctively obvious that the more goes you have to get a particular number the more chance you have, but I've had to explain it in terms of basic probability theory here.
Of course the chances of a NPE are probably much less than 1 in 6 per generation.
I did Statistics as part of my Economics, Politics and History degree. Don't try to teach me to suck eggs.
My excuse for replying is you had it coming.
Please don't bother me with this again. You've made enough of a fool of yourself already.

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Steve St Clair
9/9/2013 12:10:31 pm

You can name-call all you want Piero. I fully understand statistics and probabilities and I can read what you posted on Bobbie's Hatebook site.

The question remains, can we look to you to correct that part of the pronouncement you posted which clearly indicates that you think 3 generations is too short to have a NPE?

It's a yes or no question. It requires no hateful response on your part. You've simply posted something that's incorrect or at least incorrectly worded.

Reply
piero sinclair
9/9/2013 08:08:25 pm

The quote from my piece.
"there is very little chance of a Non Paternity Event (NPE) in that short time".
If you're in a whole, don't dig further.

Steve St Clair
9/10/2013 12:27:45 am

Piero wrote, "It’s interesting to try to think of other alternative scenarios that are even vaguely plausible, but you’ll find you cannot because there are NONE. So folks, IT'S DEFINITE. Z346* Sinclairs are ultimately paternally descended from the Roslin Sinclairs." MY CAPS

I'm definitely not in a "whole" [sic] Piero. Your piece on Robert's Hatebook site veers back and forth between soft declarations and absolutes. You've used the phrase "virtually 100% sure" in other places when defending your line of thinking here. You want DNA to be absolute, but it will not be.

At least you're now, on these blog comments, you're close to admitting there is something less than completely arrogant certainty in your claims.

But then there's this - "I'm satisfied from the evidence, genealogical and genetic, that the Caithness and Northern Isles Z346* Sinclairs are descended from the Roslin Sinclairs, and I'd say that evidence points to this being pretty much 100%."

You see, it's not enough that I give them a 90% likelihood of being the Rosslyn Sinclairs. Zealots need more.

Gunn
9/10/2013 04:54:59 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

May as well start at the beginning....

piero sinclair
9/9/2013 06:21:03 am

I apologize Matt for calling names, especially as I was accusing another for the same behaviour.

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piero sinclair
9/10/2013 03:52:52 am

As you lose each argument you bring up a new one. You're now trawling the internet in a desperate effort to land a blow. I'm not playing this silly game anymore, especially as you don't seem to understand any of my answers.

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Steve St Clair
9/10/2013 02:02:20 pm

Oh, you'll keep playing, Piero, because you love to have the last word. At some point you must rectify your claim of being "pretty much 100%" certain your DNA are the direct paternal descendants of the Rosslyn Sinclairs. Or you can just keep name calling and making it clear to all the readers here that you're bluffing because, if you understand DNA and SNPs, then you're not 'pretty much 100%' certain.

Direct quote, "I'm satisfied from the evidence, genealogical and genetic, that the Caithness and Northern Isles Z346* Sinclairs are descended from the Roslin Sinclairs, and I'd say that evidence points to this being pretty much 100%."

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Al West link
9/10/2013 04:53:03 am

Gentlemen,

Why don't you simply stop?

The Sinclair/StClair name is now synonymous with stupidity and stubbornness in my head. If that was the aim you set yourselves, you've done well. If it wasn't, maybe now is the time to think about the choices you've made in life.

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Gunn
9/10/2013 05:00:40 am

Al, I resemble that! So you admit that stupidity and stubbornness is in your head? (I'm using Opher's manner of reasoning.)

Al, everyone needs to re-assess the choices they've made in life, including you and me.

Your late attack is unwarranted, and considered as, yes, bird poop, therefore qualifying you as an official "Bog Rat," with little sense of dignity.

"I don't mind being a Blog Rat...the word rat don't bother me."

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Christopher Randolph
9/10/2013 05:59:51 am

This Sinclair idiocy has nothing to do with me.

If you're leaving the forum just do it already. No one needs your hateful brand of Christianity.

Al West link
9/10/2013 06:29:38 am

I don't know what a blog rat is, exactly, but I assume it's a slur. Since this entire thread has been overrun by slurs thrown by the warring St/Sinclairs, I suppose that is apropos. I'm not sure, though, why you object so strongly to my objections to the inanity, triviality, immaturity, and stupidity going on in this thread.

Only Me
9/10/2013 07:26:51 am

You'll get used to it, Al. Inanity, triviality, immaturity and stupidity are Gunn's stock and trade on this site, especially when he's trying to steamroll the latest topic in favor of his pet obsession. Whenever he reads a comment that doesn't square with his personal belief system, he goes on the attack like a rabid chipmunk.

Gunn
9/10/2013 01:27:58 pm

Okay, why not...Steve needs a break now.

Sir, you have stepped on the good name of the Sinclairs, whom I have adopted in spirit and in pen-name. Please adjust your jealousy accordingly. Not all Sinclairs can be tarnished with the same DNA brush, or haven't you learned anything in the preceding 100 pages or so?

A blog rat is, by definition, Christopher, whom I have chastised down to merely "Opher," sitting down by his little doggy bowl...which, coincidentally, does say Christopher on it. Yes, I took Christ away from his name here on this blog, hopefully only temporarily. (I hope he was named after Christ, and not that imposter Columbus!)

Steve St Clair
9/10/2013 01:49:15 pm

Gunn,

Take a knee... I hereby dub thee Sir Gunn. You are indeed worthy.

Christopher Randolph
9/10/2013 02:16:53 pm

I don't see any point in participating in this forum any longer. Jason clearly prefers having the Gunn and the Sinclair idiots here than the people who get scared away by them.

Enjoy that.

Jason Colavito link
9/10/2013 11:24:32 pm

I don't prefer them. I'm not sure what you would have me do. I don't have all day to sit here reading Sinclair bloodline claims or monitoring everything people say across 3 years' worth of blog posts. I have a real job and not nearly enough time. I let people post what they will, within reason. Leave them to complain among themselves and you can comment on more productive posts.

Steve St Clair
9/10/2013 02:49:30 pm

Mission Accomplished

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Joe
9/10/2013 04:49:55 pm

Good Evening,

I am sorry I am a little confused on the current state of the conversation. I know that Gunn likes to bring up two major points in his argument. Proselytizing people in his religious views and talking about the KRS. I am slightly surprised that he has not brought up the KRS in this discussion thread. But even more surprised that he has come to the defense of Steve Sinclair in the Sinclair civil war. Based on Gunn's often proclaimed faith, I am more then surprised that he is supporting a person that advertises the Jesus Bloodline controversy on his “genealogy research” website. I know that it might appear that I am picking on Steve in the Sinclair civil war. For that I am sorry, since I do not want to pick sides in such a trivial war.

I really do not want to get in the middle of the argument. But since it is on a public forum on really couldn't help myself by adding my two cents. First I have to state that Jason has done such a fantastic job critiquing the various alternative history programs that H2 and the group display. But I am more then surprised that the “Sinclair Controversy” has caused the most discussion. As Jason pointed out this is a made up history that is around 20 years old. So why is there such a controversy? I understand the importance people put to a family genealogy with document and DNA study. But why is there such animosity? It appears on the surface that all parties agree that the Jesus Bloodline is not realistic and no one has any evidence of a Sinclair / Templar connection to America. So again why such the anger in the genealogy discussion?

I understand that everyone involved has gone through the DNA test, and thank god, the warring sides are not related to each other. That some are arguing that they are the true Rosslyn Sinclairs and the others are not “true” Sinclairs. But besides Genealogical bragging rights what is the fight all about? What I mean by that question is that I understand each groups argument but the question is why? What is the importance of being a Rosslyn Sinclair? You all agree the advertised history is false so why is it so important to be a Sinclair. I appreciate the fact that all of you want to know your family history and I do think it is a valuable pursuit to know your personal family history and how it relates to where you came from and what your family has done. But why the vicious attacks on others, I thought that the recent interest in personal genealogy was to learn about your family history not to discount others?

Also the bitter, petty, name calling attacks on each other do very little to win your side of the argument. But instead show exactly how juvenile you are and reduce the credibility to your point.

The point I am trying to make, but will most likely will be ignored, is to add perspective to your argument. Is it really worth all the anger and effort to prove you are more of a Sinclair then the other person? Are you really proving your more of a Sinclair in the first place? Based on the common nature of Sinclair / St. Clair in western culture I feel that there is most likely several Sinclair families through out western Europe with several origin points.

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piero sinclair
9/11/2013 02:56:07 am

But Jason, you deliberately primed the posts by your remarks above in ‘Sinclair Family Values’. You knew very well they would set off Steve and Shawn. For the record, the argument is not about the Bloodline, except among a small minority. The Roslins are one of several Sinclair lines, and hardly any Sinclair considers himself to be descended from Jesus Christ or is convinced by the Jarl Henry Sinclair story. For the record, you show your prejudice again by describing them as ‘minor nobility’. Actually, they weren’t and aren’t minor nobility, but you miss the point. If you paternally descend back to nobility it’s far easier to trace your agnatic ancestors into deep history, and this helps to resolve the dna evidence. I’m not saying some don’t preen themselves on this descent, which is annoying and incites envy from some, who then resort to the satisfying pleasure from taking pot shots at us, as per yourself.
Now of course you and the vast majority of contributors on this site couldn’t care less as to whether Z346* Sinclairs are 100%, 90% or zero per cent likely to descend from Roslin. There’ve been lots of comments disparaging this interest in our past, but genealogy is an extremely popular pastime and I’m certainly not ashamed in being interested in who my paternal ancestors were, and whatever you say, frankly so are most people. I find it fascinating that I’m very probably descended from a man called Robert the Eloquent, Seigneur de Chaumont-Guitry, who in about 1070 “… was violently carrying away some booty from the territory of St.Ouen (when he) fell fully armed from his horse; his helmet stuck in the ground in such a way that he broke his neck and died wretchedly”, according to Orderic Vitalis. Or that his great-grandfather was called Theudebert, who was born in about 940. Now it may not be rational, but it fires the imagination. This sort of digging can in fact be very useful in piecing together the genetic picture of our origins back into the dark ages and beyond, as it fills in the picture within each major SNP. Your deprecation of this interest among the Sinclairs and others is telling. Of course I’m not denying the battle to some does owes something to wanting to be part of the myth, but it’s more to do with a straightforward argument about who is descended from Roslin and the fascinating attendant history, and who isn’t. We think it is certain, Steve thinks it’s 90%, but the import of what else he has to say tends to diminish this headline figure. Of course he has every right to his opinion, but you know Steve by now and you see our difficulty.
Your comments on family and its meaning in ancient times are either irrelevant or contentious. In the middle ages they very much cared whether their bride’s son was theirs or not, and probably did a long time before that.
DNA markers are boring if you don’t understand them and their relevance. It is in fact a fascinating subject which is adding to our understanding of recent and distant human evolution, and will inform such things as the migrations of prehistoric European populations, and their trajectories into Europe and elsewhere. They are crucial in teasing out the Roslin link.
Yes, I’ve been involved in some name-calling. There is in fact plenty of it on this site, but when a Sinclair does it it’s apparently much more serious. The Sinclairs on this site are all individuals and should be treated as such. I’m not embarrassed by my behaviour, after all it’s very difficult not to react to slurs and other underhand jibes. I’m sorry people don’t recognize the difference.
But playing fair against the Sinclairs would be boring. If people complain against us, they need to be aware that the blame doesn’t just lie with us.

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/10/2013 06:29:07 pm

Joe, this has been going on since Dr. James Wilson declared that he could prove which of the many lineages of the Sinclair family were the Rosslyn descendants. He over-reached, but the damage was done. Robbie and a few others decided that my urging caution and further research was tantamount to a conspiracy. I must have been "hiding the great and NOBLE TRUTH" of Robbie's 'true heritage.'

The second point that led to this was the release of the Da Vinci Code. Some people in our family actually believe this fiction is real.

Finally, Robert James Sinclair, AKA "Sinclair" thinks there is only one TRUE NOBLE AND ROYAL SINCLAIR LINE, and that this is the Rosslyn branch. His opinion is that there are no other branches of any spelling of our name or history of our name that are TRUE Saint-Clairs.

You wrote, "Based on the common nature of Sinclair / St. Clair in western culture I feel that there is most likely several Sinclair families through out western Europe with several origin points."

I don't know how you've arrived at that idea, but I've found the same to be true and that was my early hypothesis regarding our family. See this link -
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/method.html

and especially this link -

http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/Sinclair-Genealogy-France.html

The issue is that I showed up here. That's all it takes.

Anywhere I show up Robbie follows and pulls in his cohort Piero. Usually he pulls in a woman named Cowthorn, just for more fun.

The readers of this blog and Jason are simply collateral damage in Robbie's HOLY AND NOBLE war.

But I can't help but notice that several of those who follow this blog contributed to this road block of ridiculousness. They saw me getting hammered by none other than a SINCLAIR, another member of the supposed holy and royal bloodline. This is better than cable TV to them. Welcome to the result.

I assure you, this isn't anywhere near done. Robbie usually goes until either he, or I, or both are kicked out of the blog entirely.

Next, I suppose you'll encourage me or Robbie to back off and let this rest. Many have suggested the same to me. But one friend said just the opposite. And I agree with him.

Internet bullies and trolls need to be exposed in just the way I expose Robbie and Piero. Name calling, libel, and continued badgering by people like this will NEVER END. The best you can hope for is to counter it with somewhat reasonable responses and the truth about the issue being discussed. The truth = references.

My website has a ton of reverences to back up my points of view. Anyone can check out my research and form their own conclusions. Those like Robbie and Piero, who show no references, cannot be checked out and therefore must be taken on face value.

As one blogger who discusses Dr. James Wilson, Robbie and Piero's main source says, Caveat Emptor.

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Sinclair
9/11/2013 03:13:04 am

WOW This gets better and better by the moment. Read back through some of these posts ,and just see the childish comments and just who was name calling. Steve is the very best at turning things about and playing to an audience that has no clue as to what this is all about. I say Steve StClairs actions here, speaks for itself. Steve is in marketing advertizing,go figure eh.

Most of what is put out by poor Steve who is haunted on the net is all lies. I could care less where his line comes from or how many lines of StClairs there are,just as long as he is not in mine. He keeps on and on about this Royal Bloodline,I have never mentioned a word about Royal anything. This is again all Steves way to twist things about.

But yes I will continue to counter all Steves lies,and have proven him wrong time and time again, and this is what really eats him up. Steves latest lie was the Wolter show,and Steve saying he was a relative of Henry StClair/Sinclair. Funny how the topic went from that to me..............


Reply
Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 07:04:03 am

Bobbie wrote, "Most of what is put out by poor Steve who is haunted on the net is all lies."

Please specify where these lies are. Give us exact URLs on my 3 DNA websites or Facebook page, and put the parts where I lie in quotes. If you're right, I'll gladly change them. But the burden of proof is on you, Bobbie - not your opinions, but researched facts with footnotes so we can all go check your accusations.

Links below so everyone can learn from your investigations, Bobbie.

The main website - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The Facebook page - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The St Clair DNA blog - http://stclairdna.blogspot.com
The Sinclair DNA blog - http://sinclairdna.blogspot.com

Only Me
9/11/2013 07:04:06 am

Steve, Piero, Robert:

As an outsider, I think what Joe and others have been trying to get at is this; what is the all-important reason for determining who descended from the Roslyn (sp?) bloodline?

Steve has established there are several bloodlines bearing some form of the Sinclair name. As Joe stated, they most likely have their own points of origin. What is the sticking point here? I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that not all families sharing my ancestral name are related to me by blood. Again, what's the problem?

Piero said that the DNA link will help to reconcile claims made through documentation, in the service of tracing one's family tree. I accept that. However, this would be true for anyone's bloodline.

Robert has said that there is only one bloodline descended from the Roslyn Sinclairs. Superb, but what of it?

In other words, gentlemen, if Steve's research and DNA studies helps to resolve the MYTH of a Jesus bloodline, thought true by some due to The Da Vinci Code, and dispels the MYTH of a Sinclair-Templar connection due to the above, then why all the animosity? Without the glamor of the above myths, once again, why is it so imperative to prove who descended from the Roslyns?

As Steve put it,"What precisely the hell do you want?". Please explain the significance of the endgame.

Reply
piero sinclair
9/11/2013 08:16:14 am

To Only Me.
My suggestion to you is that you actually read the comments above carefully. For instance, in my post to Jason I've already explained what is important to me about being descended from the Roslin line.
The exchanges are also an important clue into what is going on. Read them properly.
Also go to Steve's St Clair Research site, as he urges you to. Read his piece on Z346*. Then come on this forum and explain to us what it's all about, and how he came to the conclusions he did, and how it all makes sense. If you can't make sense of it, don't blame yourself. No one can.
Go to his piece on Herdmanston. Come back on this site. Tell us how convinced you are by the evidence he brings. (Or completely confused, because if you're honest you will be, and that is the point).
If you have any problems and want to take them up Steve, try telling him on this site. If you want to know what happens just look at the above comments. this isn't just with us, look at previous posts, eg on the Templars.
Steve didn't discover these different Sinclair lines, it was dna testing that did that. Steve didn't uncover the Z346* Roslin Sinclair connection, he fought it all the way. Now he apparently accepts that it's 90% likely, but read his site and you'll discover different. Don't be so naive in taking him at his word.
For God's sake, why should we have to answer these queries when the facts are all there for you laid out? We've done it over and over. He claimed on TV he was Jarl Henry Sinclair's distant cousin. Has he answered on that charge? Has he answered on any of the charges we've put to him? Look above at my exchanges with him. I outed him on the NPE probability argument, and everything he brought up; did he acknowledge it? No, he blithely ignored it and opened the discussion on yet another subject and yet another slur
We know from experience that we bring out the evidence and he just shifts the sands.
Aren't you supposed to be myth busters? Can't you recognize a complete charlatan?


Reply
Only Me
9/11/2013 09:51:03 am

I say to thee, nay, I am not a myth buster. I've read all the comments so far, and both sides have accused the other of being the charlatan.

What I have witnessed, are two entrenched sides firing volleys back and forth, both scoring direct hits...and neither willing to back down in spite of the injury.

I suppose I just wanted to know if the pursuit of the Rosslyn bloodline was motivated by a materialistic reason, or if it really came down to familial pride.

And Gunn, the Sinclair-Templar issue should be cleared up, since Steve has found no evidence for it, and the age of the apparent mythos itself. I will leave the door open, for now.

By the way, as a new Sinclair, would you be considered a NPE? =)

Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 11:02:30 am

Piero wrote today, "Also go to Steve's St Clair Research site, as he urges you to. Read his piece on Z346*. Then come on this forum and explain to us what it's all about, and how he came to the conclusions he did, and how it all makes sense. If you can't make sense of it, don't blame yourself. No one can."

Really Piero? YOU CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT. You said so on another group. Here's your direct quote on that group after Shawn Sinclair and I posted the new Z346* page.

First, Piero wrote, "There's a lot I agree with in this piece, but a few niggles." Then he goes into pushing for his 99% certainly, then he adds "But on the whole I think the report is a huge step forward and I welcome it. Thanks Shawn and Steve.
Piero"

Sounds to me like you could make plenty 'sense of it' Piero.

Here's the link to the entire thread for anyone who has nothing better to do tonight -
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/topics/11532

Dodge and weave this one, Piero.

Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 05:22:26 pm

Uh... Piero? Drako?

Are you done?

Come on Mythbusters. Can you please respond, or at least be man enough to admit defeat?

Gunn
9/15/2013 04:20:52 am

Only Me, by the way, as a lying fool, would you also be considered a prick? Well, in a Biblical sense, I guess you quality.

Gunn Sinclair
9/11/2013 08:42:29 am

Some visiting think the conversation has grown weary...not me. As long as there is something new, a new angle to explore, the subject and endgame are not over. This happens to me all the time here...a door is flipped open on a subject, I respond, the conversation progresses, and then a Blog Rat tries to intervene. Like, just when I was getting somewhere...someone actually wanted to know something else about "Jason's Waterloo," for instance.

The endgame is sorting out the Sinclairs. People want to know what line they descended from, if possible. The Rosslyn Sinclairs have not only mythical history, but real, actual history dating back to Wm and beyond...from Rosslyn back. Many Sinclairs will be related, multiplied, as the genealogies are traced back further and further. Some want to start at Rosslyn, which is okay for Wm's descendants. Others want to be connected to Wm in some way, but with difficulties hindering the search.

I say we exhume Wm. Sinclair, get a DNA sample, and go both backward and forward from there. This is a solution.

The claim to Rosslyn Sinclairs is a claim to the Knights Templar. Rosslyn Chapel is factually a bridge (in symbolism) between the Templars and Freemasony...not a light thing.

Wanting to be connected in some way to the St. Clair/ Sinclair family of Royalty is understandable, and certainly nothing to complain about--unless bitterly jealous.

At least the Jesus bloodline issue was cleared up; not the Sinclair/Templar issue, though. Perhaps we can learn something new from the distinguished blog panelists. Unfortunately, this leaves most of you out...the Blog Rat Collective, specifically.

One rat complained to the busy Headmaster, to no avail. Poor rat.

Food for thought: The Templars, many actual Christians, stood firm in self defense. Probably included were the Sinclairs. We recall that self defense is subjective...even against Blog Rats. Is this name-calling? Yes, very good name calling. If nothing else, we Sinclairs stand firm, stubbornly, in self-defense against Blog Rats.

Just remember, Jason started this. A great idea it was!

Reply
Sinclair
9/11/2013 05:39:24 pm

Seems Steve and Shawn have had issues in the past...Shawn says,Steve says...now there buddies.

http://stclairresearch.blogspot.ca/

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Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 06:28:57 pm

Yes, Drako. Shawn and I dealt with our issues like men. We moved on for the betterment of the Sinclair / St Clair Family. As a result, we're working together to answer the questions of the history of the family using DNA and genealogical records.

Reply
Sinclair
9/11/2013 05:43:58 pm

Please foreward all emails for Steve to his new address here. Seems he will be staying at this new address for some time.

http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/dmhs/oshm/tph/

Reply
piero sinclair
9/11/2013 08:03:44 pm

It's a psychiatric hospital. Yes, I can well understand why you've been dealing with it for years!

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Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 06:26:04 pm

Very clever, Drako. This is the kind or response I've been dealing with for years.

Drako, I asked you for a precise response above. If what you say is true, then this should be easy for you.

Clearly you overlooked my post above. So I'll re-post it here. I'm sure you'll respond like the "mythbuster" that you are.

Bobbie wrote, "Most of what is put out by poor Steve who is haunted on the net is all lies."

Please specify where these lies are. Give us exact URLs on my 3 DNA websites or Facebook page, and put the parts where I lie in quotes. If you're right, I'll gladly change them. But the burden of proof is on you, Bobbie - not your opinions, but researched facts with footnotes so we can all go check your accusations.

Links below so everyone can learn from your investigations, Bobbie.

The main website - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The Facebook page - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The St Clair DNA blog - http://stclairdna.blogspot.com
The Sinclair DNA blog - http://sinclairdna.blogspot.com

Reply
piero sinclair
9/11/2013 08:00:58 pm

And as I've said, you won't find the answers there.
I've been a bit dense. People on this site can't be expected to know about the dna or the genealogy of the Sinclairs, and how it all fits together. You're basically having to take our word or Steve's word for this. Now I would argue that Steve has shown on this site he has no credibility, but I can't necessarily expect you to accept that.
I wrote an article on this, but of course it doesn't have references, it's an article for popular consumption. I have written a very detailed genealogy of the Sinclairs of Roslin going back to the 10th century, replete with references you can actually check on line.
But the answer to this is to set up a website which explains the dna and the genealogy, with screen shots of people's FTDNA pages, (Family Tree dna), to demonstrate how they match together using the site's TiP Calculator. The site will go through all the scenarios which could explain this data, genetic and genealogical, and give a prize for any other plausible explanation of this information other than the one we've advocated here. Several times we've solicited these alternative plausible scenarios and answer comes there none.
The site will show anonymously the range of haplotypes involved, and demonstrate how these haplotypes are present in Sinclairs and almost completely absent in non-Sinclairs in the area. The few non Sinclairs that do have it accept that they are NPEs from Sinclairs.
Then, when this argument comes up again, we can refer you to it.
Unfortunately it's a lot of work, but probably the only solution. People don't accept our findings on trust, and Steve has attempted to cast doubt on Dr Jim Wilson's reputation.
I would want it to be a rounded site, covering the whole spectrum of Roslin subject matter.This is the only solution I can see to resolve these sorts of arguments, though people will of course still dispute it.
This was never the site for these arguments. Just because it's a myth busting site doesn't mean it's rational, and as on any site the discussion becomes dominated by the 'usual suspects'.
Cheers

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/11/2013 11:29:55 pm

You've been exposed here, Piero, on several counts. Everyone who reads this can see it. Do yourself the favor of either responding to the completely clear lie above, or being quiet.

Cheers

piero sinclair
9/12/2013 01:37:51 am

I don't know what you're referring to. But I have just re-read above and noticed a post by you I missed. Is this it? This is part of it.
"First, Piero wrote, "There's a lot I agree with in this piece, but a few niggles." Then he goes into pushing for his 99% certainly, then he adds "But on the whole I think the report is a huge step forward and I welcome it. Thanks Shawn and Steve.
Piero"

Yes, I did make those remarks, because you had made a complete turn-around in saying that we were 90% certain to be descended from Roslin, as opposed to being implacably against it. So I responded with the spirit of generosity engendered by that massive concession.
The few niggles were actually massive holes, but I was trying to be nice, something you wouldn't understand. Also after reading the headline 90% figure I suspect I rather skimmed the rest, the writing is pretty indigestible. In fact your admission is followed by conclusions which if correct would make it impossible for the us to be descended from Roslin at all. We discussed this on another topic on this site, so it's been dealt with. But I'll repeat it here.
These are your first two conclusions. I have issues with all of them but I'm not wasting my time on the others.
1. The Caithness Lineage shares a male ancestor with John Thurso sometime since 400 AD - 800 BC, geography western Europe, England, or Scotland.
2. John Thurso's documented history via research (which to my knowledge has not been verified in the last hundred years, only repeated) ties into the Sinclairs of Ulbster through a non-paternity event (NPE). This NPE was a male Sinclair and so provided YDNA which almost certainly connects the Caithness Lineage to our Ulbster branch.
Firstly, John Thurso, (or John Sinclair, Viscount Sinclair), does not share an ancestor with the Z346* Sinclair between 400AD and 800BC. The most recent common ancestor of Thurso and the other Z346* Sinclairs is in the 1300s AD, in Scotland. You have conflated, I imagine deliberately, the age of Z346* with the age of the subset of Z346* which is the Orkney and Caithness Sinclairs. It doesn't take a genius to work out that your assertion is impossible. For it to be true, a group of people with co-incidentally the same distinct haplotypes all acquired the name Sinclair at least 500 centuries after the surname existed, when that haplotype is almost exclusively held by Sinclairs in this area. This isn't possible. It's a very simple argument, why do I have doubts as to whether you'll actually understand it?
Your second point is a confused statement (again I suggest deliberate), in which you describe Thurso's ancestor as an NPE and cast doubts on his genealogy. This ancestor's name was a Sinclair; in fact William, second son of the 4th Earl of Caithness, and his illegitimate son was also named Sinclair. He was later legitimized. This is in no way an NPE. This is I imagine an attempt to distance Thurso from the other Z346* Sinclairs. No doubt I'll find you trying to dispute this very obvious error too.
This is just a tiny fraction of the deliberate sleights of hand on your site. Don't get me trying to explain what an NPE is. Look it up.
That is the sum total of my dealings with you. Say all you like, and you will, I'm fed up with answering questions which lead nowhere because you take advantage of the ignorance about these things on this forum to try and pull the wool over people's eyes. Pull it, but we know better.
I can't make up my mind whether you're more stupid than evil, or vice-versa.
If this isn't the claimed lie you're referring to I'll leave some other poor mug to waste their time dealing with it.

piero sinclair
9/12/2013 04:31:46 am

500 centuries should read 5 centuries.
John Sinclair, Viscount Sinclair should read John Sinclair, Viscount Thurso.

Steve St Clair
9/12/2013 03:46:30 pm

Wow, Piero, I understand the issue now. You can't read simple English.

You quoted from my writeup on the Sinclair Z346* Lineage - "The Caithness Lineage shares a male ancestor with John Thurso sometime since 400 AD - 800 BC, geography western Europe, England, or Scotland."

Then you dropped more of your crazy interpretations on us, "Firstly, John Thurso, (or John Sinclair, Viscount Sinclair), does not share an ancestor with the Z346* Sinclair between 400AD and 800BC."

You can read, right? Did you miss the word SINCE ? Moron.

Here again is what I posted, "The Caithness Lineage shares a male ancestor with John Thurso sometime since 400 AD - 800 BC,"

See the word SINCE in there Piero? I means that Thurso and the Caithness lineage share a common ancestor sometime between the formation of the Z346* Lineage (400 AD-ish) and the 1400s roughly.

You read conspiracy into everything. It's just amazing how supremely arrogant you are Piero. "You have conflated, I imagine deliberately, the age of Z346* with the age of the subset of Z346*" Wrong you arrogant ass. You have conflated your supreme arrogance with intelligence. And you can't read.

Claiming that I'm trying to distance Thurso from the Caithness Lineage is also arrogant BS. I'm urging caution until more recent SNPs are found downstream of Z346*. But a complete zealot wouldn't want that advice.

Piero cliams, "This is just a tiny fraction of the deliberate sleights of hand on your site" but like Drako, he won't tell us this vast number of other "sleights of hand" that I'm perpetrating on the world. Amazingly, only this nut job trifecta of Drako, Piero, and Cowthorn are the ones bitching about it continuously.

So, Piero, I'll challenge you the way I challenged your brother Drako - prove it. Tell us with great specificity all the sleights of hand I'm using. Or shut your mouth.

Matt Mc
9/12/2013 02:51:55 am

Honestly I don't thing anyone is pulling wool over anyones eyes. Except for the Sinclair lot and one midwestern obsessive, no one really cares about the lineage and who is who and related or not related to whomever.

Mostly people seemed to be amused and disappointed to see grown men act so childish about something so unimportant.

People do seem to be interested in the why? Why all the bickering? What does it gain from being a real SInclair? Is it all about bragging rights? Or is it the need to add a outdated "title" next to your name?


There must be some good reason, the family here has demonstrated quite well the lineage is not represented by higher morals, education, or behavior than the any other portion of society (if not shown that it is in fact below standards) so there must be some reason.

Reply
Gunn
9/12/2013 04:22:26 am

Matt McNutt, you have reached new lows here calling Mr. Wolter a "Midwestern obsessive." Well, it may as well go full-circle back to Jason and Wolter. Ha! Ha!

Plenty of people want to know more about the St. Clairs/Sinclairs, don't fool yourself. After all, as we'll find out here soon enough, it's really all about the Templars, because some Royal Sinclairs were Templars. There is the nobility-rub. Get over it, people.

Plus, we have a wonderful myth where truth can dance around the outer rim...explorations...discoveries...etc.

Jason, the Latin's lose on this one, except that Columbus was probably--almost certainly--Templar related, if only as a NPE, through his wife. Sadly, Christopher's remaining bone fragments have not revealed DNA.

However, Wm. Sinclair, of Rosslyn Chapel fame, may yet give up some precious DNA, indeed. It would help clear all this up...just exactly who is connected to the Sinclair Templars/Freemasons who helped create America?

Include the "Henry myth" or not, as is your prerogative. And don't forget the testimony of pertinent Native Americans. We don't want to be overtly racist here, right?

Reply
Matt Mc
9/12/2013 04:42:08 am

Gunn, I will gladly interact with you when you choose be respectful until then good day sir.

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Only Me
9/12/2013 09:42:37 am

Try not to be too terribly disappointed when that doesn't happen, Matt.

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Matt Mc
9/12/2013 10:10:42 am

I won't and don't expect it

Gunn
9/15/2013 04:09:36 am

Only Me likes to butt-in, being a jerk, adding nothing to the discourse. He is the epitome of waste.

Gunn
9/13/2013 06:03:52 am

Oh yes, you are the model of respect on a blog...more like just another Blog Rat.

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titus pullo
9/12/2013 11:33:24 am

Here is a new one..I recall reading a book by Clive Cussler a while back that postulated that the Trojan war really was a Celtic tale of a battle in South West England over the Tin Trade..Troy was in England not Greece. The guy advocating it pointed to the simularity of river names and geography in Iliad. Haven't heard much of this theory since..anyone have any further insight on this?

Reply
Joe
9/12/2013 05:40:34 pm

It appears there is no civility in the Sinclair family, which again is still incredibly ridiculous behavior by what I have to assume are adults. I understand that I am sounding like a broken record in this conversation but I still have to wonder why such animosity. We all understand that you all disagree on the exact methods of the other groups research. But how do you think you will convince the opposing side of your point if all you do is bash or insult the other side. In fact it appears that you actually agree on some points.

Now in response to my previous post Steve “Next, I suppose you'll encourage me or Robbie to back off and let this rest. Many have suggested the same to me. But one friend said just the opposite. And I agree with him.” Might I suggest you ignore this particular friend and do the adult thing and drop it. In previous post you have stated that you are a parent. Would you want your child to behave in this way?

Not to totally pick up on Steve, I still do not understand the same childish vitriol response by Piero. It appears that Steve has agreed, to some extent, on your research concerning your DNA in connection with the Sinclairs of Rosslyn. Also in your own blog post “but genealogy is an extremely popular pastime and I'm certainly not ashamed in being interested in who my paternal ancestors” you then continue by talking about how it fires the imagination. In all these points in your statement I have to agree. The study of genealogy and studying of ones family history can be a great pastime and lead to a better understanding of history. But if that is all it is for you then why such hatred when discussing points with Steve. I understand you do not agree with his methods but if you are content with your work and research why would Steve's work bother you so much.

In all of this you have all deemed being a Sinclair of great importance. That you all come from an ancient family with a proud history. And yes it does appear that through the extensive research you have shown that the Sinclairs have a long documented history with many interesting individuals. But in all of this you have all stated that you do not believe in the Jesus Bloodline stories or the Earl of Orkney coming to America prior to Columbus. In this case the Sinclairs would be similar to several other families of similar stature in the British Isles. So again why such the hostility between Sinclair members when discussing family history? You can each take turns point at the others behavior but really take a look at yourselves and decide if that is how you want to be viewed.

I also wanted to state I appreciate Matt's comments in trying to bring reason to a ridiculous conversation. I am also not surprised that Gunn has drank from the Sinclair Kool-Aid. Gunn I am not sure how Matt reached a new low when describing Wolter as a “Midwestern obsessive” What from his show and books show he is not an obsessive. He is fixated on on a theory that has shown no evidence of ever being true. Shows no ability to conduct real archeological research and practices at potential sites. Yet despite the evidence he continues to move forward with this theory looking to piece together anything that he can attempt to explain together in some confused circular logic. Also I think that there has been strong research from people like Jason and others that have shown there is no Templar / Freemason connection with Henry Sinclair coming to America.

Reply
Gunn
9/13/2013 06:00:08 am

Say it ain't so, Joe. You got it wrong. So far, Henry Sinclair coming to America can be classified as a myth, if you choose to ignore Native American accounts. But, there is a Templar/Freemason connection to America...interwoven with Sinclairs.

You got the "Midwest obsessive" wrong, too, I guess one could say like a dog going after the wrong ball. I'm glad you didn't think of me as a Midwest obsessive. I don't think you'd make a very good chess player.

Reply
Only Me
9/13/2013 07:47:12 am

Wow. One Internet delivered pat on the head and the sycophant continues his ankle-biting attacks in deference to his new master. Keep jumping through hoops like a trained seal; every court has to have a jester.

Keep it coming, Joe. You got the main parties to engage in civil discourse with your thoughtful comment. Just let the weak attacks slide off; some can't handle the truth when the facts challenge their delusions.

piero sinclair
9/13/2013 09:04:58 am

This is hilarious. But since it's 'Only You' we'll ignore the hypocrisy, and your attempt to goad the argument alive again.
Now you try resisting what isn't even a slur. I think you'll have to because if you don't.... that's a no-win situation.
This started with a biased attack on the Sinclairs by Jason, and it has been kept alive by people 'holier than thou' who were no such thing.
The only sensible intervention has been Joe's, who has shown some psychological insight. But even he cannot understand why this is an important argument, and the frustrating thing is I can't even explain why because it'll set everything off again. I myself welcomed Gunn's wayward remarks by way of relief.
So, I'm biting my lip, please will everybody follow suit or you'll reveal yourselves, and that includes Sinclairs of either camp.
I've behaved pretty badly in all this. Hands up. So can we all now please hold our tongues.

Only Me
9/13/2013 09:55:58 am

No hypocrisy here, Piero.

I'm not even trying to "attempt to goad the argument alive again". I'm just sick of every time someone, like Joe, weighs in, they are subjected to, yes, slurs or worse. In other words, my comments had nothing to do with YOU, Steve or Robert. I gave Joe some advice and encouragement. Don't like it...too bad.

Matt Mc
9/13/2013 12:40:36 pm

Actually Gunn as was referring to Wolter with my Midwestern Obsessive comment. Just to clear that up.

Matt Mc
9/13/2013 12:42:12 pm

Sorry that should read I was referring to Wolter

Gunn
9/15/2013 04:07:36 am

Only Me, you're not adding anything but nastiness. You're showing everyone what a mean and nasty fellow you are.

Sinclair
9/12/2013 06:24:03 pm

Nicely said Joe,all but one thing that is

You said That you all come from an ancient family with a proud history.........Well you see this is exactly the issue here, you all do NOT come from an ancient family with a proud history...Two people here Steve and Shawn have nothing to do with the history of the Sinclairs from Caithness,and dna has proven that. Its not about the history,be it good or bad history,its all about just WHO's history it is.

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/12/2013 11:08:55 pm

Joe, I'm sure you're left wondering how Drako thinks those words he posted suffice as an answer to your well-thought-out questions.

For my part, the hostility I direct at these two and a third who has not yet reared her head here is one of at least attempting to be accurate.

To bring us back to the central theme of my earlier comments, this entire issue was initiated by the academic, Dr. James Wilson and his claims he had solved the history of a particular branch of our family. He grossly overstated and a few zealots drank it up.

This DNA thing is a long process. And it's a long way from being an accurate tool. About 5 people in our study have passed away since we began. I'd like them to have accurate information before they go. That's one reason I get angry about it.

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/12/2013 11:30:56 pm

By the way Drako, I've repeatedly said I have nothing to do with the Sinclairs of Caithness. I've written it here, I've got my actual known genealogy posted on the website, and I've posted it on other forums.

Despite your claims, Drako, that's not your problem with me. Drako told a mutual acquaintance of ours what his actual problem really is. "I just hate him. I hate his guts."

There you have it. They know that arguing over 90% vs 100% is absurd. They know that paper genealogy documents are not enough. They know that one of my central hypotheses is correct - ours being a place-name, there are more than one sources for our name and thus multiple DNA types carrying the name since medieval times. I know that Drako knows this is true because another person who does his thinking for him agreed with me on a public forum.

It all comes down to the simple fact that Drako doesn't like me. Highly scientific, isn't it.

Reply
Joe
9/13/2013 01:18:50 am

Sinclair,

I hate to do this but I have to agree with Steve on your counter point. Just because he does not belong to your line of Sinclairs doesn't mean that his line does not or can not have a long documented history. In fact the way I understand it the Sinclairs that moved to Scotland and northern England originated from France. Now I do not have the specifics of this and if I am wrong I do apologize. But the limited research I did stated that they migrated France.

So if his family came from one of those out of France I am sure he can claim a long and distinguished history.

Reply
Sinclair
9/13/2013 03:16:31 am

Joe ,

Steve also clearly stated on public television on Wolters show that he was a cousin of Prince Henry Sinclairs. Henry Sinclair is of the Caithness,Orkney,Roslin line...not a Part of Steves line at all. So how can he be a cousin. Ya can't have it both ways.Yet he says in his next breath he is not related to them. FLIP FLOP we go.You see its things like this,Steve just jumps all over the map with is claims and acusations. Verbal diarrhea. Steves genealogy is far from proven and full of holes. He has absolutly no proof of a claim to Glasgow.Steves lline has no dna connections to Sinclair outside of America. All evidence or rather lack of indicates Steves line is most likely an Irish immegrant family to America and took the name of Sinkler there.Steve has a large number of Irish dna matches, gee I wonder why. His line only relates to itself in America,proofs in the pudding...Shawns another sad story....and proven to not tell the truth

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/13/2013 03:10:55 pm

Robert, you’re a liar. And the amusing part of your sad game is you know you’re a liar. My genealogy to Glasgow is well-proven. I’ve been on various other blog comment boards and Yahoo groups in which you and I already beat each other up over this. There is a court case in which my oldest ancestor is testifying for a gentleman named Mercer. In that he makes clear he is ‘of Glasgow.’ That’s a court case, Drako. It doesn’t get any better than that. But you should feel free to keep on repeating your tired old crap. That’s what we expect from an ass – crap.

But you already know that. We’ve been over this at least 3 other times, which means:
(a) you can’t understand English
(b) you’re a completely hopeless idiot.

Here’s how this works you angry, sad, and pathetic man: My genealogy is online and easily accessible. My SNP is well known as L193. While that SNP has connections in Ireland, Normandy, Norway, England and other areas, you keep sticking to Ireland because you’re an angry, sad, pathetic excuse for a human being. In fact, it’s being debated which of the geographies above this SNP originated but only one complete idiot believes that place is Ireland and that’s you.
You also try to dredge up this well-trod topic, “Steve also clearly stated on public television on Wolters show that he was a cousin of Prince Henry Sinclairs. Henry Sinclair is of the Caithness,Orkney” We’re not covering that again. It’s been beat to death and you – you pathetic liar – have read each and every word of it because your comments are there on that blog post and mixed into those comments. So don’t try to act like you haven’t read it and don’t know it’s been covered.
We return to 2 important points Drako:

(1) What precisely the hell do you want??

(2) Bobbie wrote, "Most of what is put out by poor Steve who is haunted on the net is all lies."
Please specify where these lies are. Give us exact URLs on my 3 DNA websites or Facebook page, and put the parts where I lie in quotes. If you're right, I'll gladly change them. But the burden of proof is on you, Bobbie - not your opinions, but researched facts with footnotes so we can all go check your accusations.

Links below so everyone can learn from your investigations, Bobbie.

The main website - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The Facebook page - http://www.stclairresearch.com
The St Clair DNA blog - http://stclairdna.blogspot.com
The Sinclair DNA blog - http://sinclairdna.blogspot.com

Let's keep going here Drako. You've done it on 7 other groups until you got kicked off. Jason says he won't do this, but I'm willing to help you test his resolve you sad, pathetic skin sack. Push the gas pedal all the way down and let the hatred fly. Don't ever answer any other questions, just keep posting your same tired hate. We'll all watch just how sad, pathetic, and sick you are.

The floor is yours Drako of the Noble Holy Bloodline of Jesus and Mary.

Reply
Sinclair
9/13/2013 03:36:16 pm

That would be Lord Sinclair to you .now on your knees.Im sure your used to that.

Reply
Steve St Clair
9/13/2013 10:41:00 pm

Actually, I've changed my mind Drako. Post whatever you want. I'm done with you here. You won't answer a single point. You're only here to make noise.

Reply
Only Me
9/14/2013 04:29:24 am

Mission Accomplished?

Steve St Clair
9/14/2013 03:36:37 pm

Perhaps ! LOL

Only Me
9/14/2013 04:11:09 pm

I know we started off on the wrong foot some time ago, but I respect your tenacity. Keep fighting for what you believe, and continue your research efforts.

I've read some of the things you highlighted on your website. I unabashedly admit that DNA is not my strong point, but I do understand its importance.

Good luck in unlocking some more doors.

Steve St Clair
9/14/2013 11:59:11 pm

Thanks Only Me,

I've enjoyed your comments.

Steve

Gunn Sinclair
9/15/2013 04:16:24 am

My mission is not accomplished with you, Only Me. I'd like you to be able to see what a fool you've been here, falsely attributing quotes to me, etc., and attacking just for sport. Steve, you are playing with the devil...a true hypocrite.

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9/23/2015 08:50:35 pm

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Reply
Steve St C
11/29/2021 10:53:42 pm

That in no way makes Colavito a "great blogger."
He trades on hate.

Reply
Raparee
6/24/2016 05:04:01 pm

... what the hell did I just read ...

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