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Was Mexico's Pyramid of Cholula Related to the Biblical Tower of Babel?

2/16/2021

52 Comments

 
Ancient Origins ran a piece recently arguing that indigenous oral traditions from North America are related to the biblical Tower of Babel story. The author seems to have lifted his understanding of the parallel myths from the Tower of Babel’s Wikipedia page, but even so, it is at least mildly interesting to review what are indeed parallel stories in order to understand where author Mark-Andrew Carpenter went wrong. The short version is that he heavily discounted the influence of the Bible on post-Contact America and among the missionaries who recorded—and revised—Native stories.
The Tower of Babel narrative isn’t all that long in the Bible. In Genesis 11:1-9, the people of Shinar built a tower to reach to heaven. God, upset about this, confounded their language to stop them from cooperating on the project. That’s it. The rest of the legend—that it was built by Nimrod and/or Giants and that God destroyed the tower with a mighty wind is not a biblical claim but rather exists in extra-biblical Jewish legend. Pseudo-Philo introduces Nimrod as the builder, and the hoaxed Oracles of pseudo-Sybil introduced the idea that God destroyed the tower with a mighty wind to punish the giants (whom the hoaxer identified as the Greek Titans!), a claim repeated by Flavius Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews. In short, the tower narrative in its popular form is not an ancient story going back to the dawn of time but is a product of Hellenistic thought, sometime around the period when the Greek translation of the Bible was undertaken. The Sibylline Oracles began to be fabricated by Alexandrian Jews around that time, according to Classical scholars.
 
Since the popular story isn’t in the Book of Genesis (despite Carpenter wrongly ascribing it to the Bible), we should therefore be surprised to find that the extra-biblical, quasi-pagan version from Pseudo-Sibyl shows up in North America, among the Cherokee.
When we lived beyond the great waters there were twelve clans belonging to the Cherokee tribe. And back in the old country in which we lived the country was subject to great floods. So in the course of time we held a council and decided to build a storehouse reaching to heaven. The Cherokees said that when the house was built and the floods came the tribe would just leave the earth and go to heaven. And we commenced to build a great structure, and when it was towering into one of the highest heavens the great powers destroyed the apex, cutting it down to about half of its height. But as the tribe was fully determined to build to heaven for safety they were not discouraged but commenced to repair the damage done by the gods. Finally, they completed the lofty structure and considered themselves safe from the floods. But after it was completed the gods destroyed the high part, again, and when they determined to repair the damage they found that the language of the tribe was confused or destroyed.
While this is often presented as proof of a Tower of Babel narrative among the Cherokee, the story was published in 1896, about 300 years too late to be proof of a pre-Contact story. It is almost certainly merely missionaries’ stories circulating back. Carpenter, of course, takes it as proof of a recurring global motif.
 
Similarly, he is impressed by a claim made for the massive Cholula pyramid of Mexico. He knows the story associated with it only from a summary, probably the one given in Wikipedia. The original, from Diego Durán’s sixteenth-century History of the Indies of New Spain, was translated in Bancroft’s collected works (and repeated in Donnelly’s Atlantis without credit):
In the beginning, before the light of the sun had been created, this land (Cholula) was in obscurity and darkness, and void of any created thing; all was a plain, without hill or elevation, encircled in every part by water, without tree or created thing; and immediately after the light and the sun arose in the east there appeared gigantic men of deformed stature and possessed the land, and desiring to see the nativity of the sun, as well as his occident, proposed to go and seek them. Dividing themselves into two parties, some journeyed to the west and others toward the east; these travelled; until the sea cut off their road, whereupon they determined to return to the place from which they started, and arriving at this place (Cholula), not finding the means of reaching the sun, enamored of his light and beauty, they determined to build a tower so high that its summit should reach the sky. Having collected materials for the purpose, they found a very adhesive clay and bitumen, with which they speedily commenced to build the tower; and having reared it to the greatest possible altitude, so that they say it reached to the sky, the Lord of the Heavens, enraged, said to the inhabitants of the sky, 'Have you observed how they of the earth have built a high and haughty tower to mount hither, being enamored of the light of the sun and his beauty? Come and confound them, because it is not right that they of the earth, living in the flesh, should mingle with us.' Immediately the inhabitants of the sky sallied forth like flashes of lightning; they destroyed the edifice, and divided and scattered its builders to all parts of the earth.
Carpenter denies the obvious—that a Christian missionary bent Native traditions to conform to the version of the story best known to him. Durán was fluent in Nahuatl and sought to document genuine Native traditions, but these traditions were already contaminated for nearly a century with Christian stories from missionaries, and many of Durán’s informants were converted Mexica. Like other missionaries, he also highlighted similarities to biblical stories and emphasized them in order to provide a grounding for further missionary work. This can be seen by comparing to another early source, from ten years earlier, which was a little less similar to the Babel story, despite apparent conflation with Biblical accounts. This is Pedro de los Rios, writing sometime before 1565:
Before the great inundation which took place 4,800 years after the erection of the world, the country of Anahuac was inhabited by giants, all of whom either perished in the inundation or were transformed into fishes, save seven who fled into caverns. When the waters subsided, one of the giants, called Xelhua, surnamed the 'Architect,' went to Cholula, where, as a memorial of the Tlaloc which had served for an asylum to himself and his six brethren, he built an artificial hill in the form of a pyramid. He ordered bricks to be made in the province of Tlalmanalco, at the foot of the Sierra of Cecotl, and in order to convey them to Cholula he placed a file of men who passed them from hand to hand. The gods beheld, with wrath, an edifice the top of which was to reach the clouds. Irritated at the daring attempt of Xelhua, they hurled fire on the pyramid. Numbers of the workmen perished. The work was discontinued, and the monument was afterwards dedicated to Quetzalcoatl.
Yet another variation has it built in anticipation of a flood to come. Putting material in order, it would seem as though an original story was gradually merging with missionaries’ extra-biblical accounts—i.e., Christian folklore—until they became nearly identical. The story achieved popularity in the 1700s when Lorenzo Boturini Benaducci published a fanciful account alleging that an Aztec painting was proof that the Mexicans built Cholula as a counterfeit of the Tower of Babel. However, even in the 1700s, other writers recognized that the evidence for such claims could not be traced back before the Contact period and was likely not an ancient biblical tradition.
 
Carpenter doesn’t buy this: “it can be objectively stated once again that these links cannot be the result of some kind of cultural contagion.” And yet, that’s exactly what the evidence shows.
52 Comments
Crash55
2/16/2021 06:25:19 pm

Even if there was no cultural contamination (I am certain there was) I am not sure what could be shown by them having similar stories. Surely the idea of striving to reach the gods must be common to almost all cultures with sky gods. Trying to build a tower and having the gods destroy it seems like to it should be common to many cultures.

Reply
Roge
2/19/2021 01:21:07 am

Hi,
The Normans might have such considerations.
If you look at Halley's Comet on the Bayeaux Tapestry, rotate it
It looks like a stylized Tower causing a conflagration.
Such a destroyed tower is described in the siege of saxons at Ely before they built Ely cathedral.
Copyright.
Roge

Reply
Kent
2/19/2021 11:31:27 am

And of course we know that The Tower is a Tarot card, transmitted from the Sufis via the Templars to Europe.

It all makes sense now!

Anthony G.
2/19/2021 07:26:39 pm

Tara Rot

Red Tara

Teamhair

Tower

TARA

Star... Elevated place

There is also Blue Tara, White Tara, Green Tara


Tara will become very important soon!

https://hermannewthermeneutics.com/2014/01/13/teamhair-tower-tara-towers-in-the-ancient-world/

Don't waste your time with kent, Roge.
He's got nothing.


Kent
2/20/2021 12:01:19 pm

"Taoism was a culture that built towers." Simply not true but moving on....

I looked at that website and it's a temple of that para iddy thing, where all words are related, tamhair, hair gel, towers, turtles....

I join your recommendation that people look at it because it's really entertaining. That's different from recommending it because you view it as real.

"But the original Turks were not middle eastern only, they came from all cultures, all over the world, and were loved and hated and feared according to their deeds. Gallant young Austrians to this day are called ‘young Turks’."

You do find and endorse some complete and utter cobblers on the internet Anthony. We know where the Turks came from and it's not "all over the world" and there is a historical origin for the term "Young Turks" in Turkey, not Austria, in the early 20th century.

Still, for fans of para iddlyism the site you recommended cannot be beat.

Doc rock
2/16/2021 07:27:32 pm

Maybe if I have a few more cocktails the discussion of etymology toward the end of the article will make perfect sense.

Reply
Conquistador Obvious
2/17/2021 10:28:14 am

What specific comments by Colavito confuse you?

We are always happy to help.

Reply
Doc rock
2/18/2021 09:29:11 am

Since Jason didnt discuss etymology near the end of his write-up, I will give you one guess to figure out whom I was referencing.

Kent
2/19/2021 04:56:14 pm

I don't see any discussion about etymology. Maybe this alcoholism stuff wasn't just shtick. Foreign words <> etymology.

Darold knowles
2/19/2021 07:32:55 pm

There’s a section in the linked article titled, “The Key to the Mystery is Etymology.” It couldn’t be more glaringly obvious what was meant by Doc Rock.

Kent
2/19/2021 08:37:10 pm

"Maybe if I have a few more cocktails the discussion of etymology toward the end of the article will make perfect sense."

So SOMEWHERE ELSE ON THE INTERNET there's something about etymology? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Beginning to wonder if there's only one alcoholic....

Doc Rock
2/20/2021 05:35:23 am

Come now Darold. Not everyone can be expected to pick up on subtle hints like the word Etymology spelled out in large bold letters in the heading of the final section of the article which then uses etymology/etymological three more times in the course of discussing the origin of words.

Think of it as something along the lines of a "dog whistle" that can't be heard over at the kiddie table.

Kent
2/20/2021 09:39:55 am

The word "etymology" does appear many times elsewhere on the internet but not once in THIS article. One day at a time.

"the discussion of etymology toward the end of the article will make perfect sense."

"Jason didnt discuss etymology near the end of his write-up."

"Who was that stranger?"
"Why, son, that that was the Eat Your Cake and Have It Too Kid."

Doc Rock
2/20/2021 12:57:12 pm

Please Kent, tell us more. Spare no details. Be brutal.You are in the Cat Bird Seat so keep driving.

I am tempted to break out my bottle of Grand Marnier Cuvee 1880 for this one....

Kent
2/20/2021 02:56:25 pm

Your adult-sized ego kept you from saying "I meant in the linked article" and your Korsakoff's Syndrome keeps you babbling "kiddie table" at odd times. The cool thing about disagreeable people is that Nature bats last. I can think, I can wait, I can fast.

Transmission ends.

Not not not captain obvious
2/20/2021 03:59:57 pm

Kent has such a positively yummy concept of "somewhere else" on the internet. His desire to stand apart from the crowd is just so darn cute.

Doc Rock
2/20/2021 07:22:28 pm

Ah, another legendary Kent Three-for-One Showing His Ass Special. He gets proven wrong on something very basic, fails in his effort to land a zinger, and then everyone gets treated to a nice little entertaining outburst since it is always someone else's fault when Kent struggles to connect the only two dots on the board.

Even though this has turned into a Top 5 Kent moment, I decided to keep the Grand Marnier stashed away. In the spirit of the ETYMOLOGY of the Cholula pyramid, I decided to go with some middle shelf Mescal.

But endeavor to persevere, Pequeno Plano, endeavor to persevere...

Jim
2/21/2021 06:18:26 am

"Your adult-sized ego kept you from saying "I meant in the linked article"

FINALLY,,,,,Kent smells what the Doc is cooking !

Patrick Leary
2/21/2021 10:36:44 am

The explanation for the Cholula Pyramid discussed by the author is based on 16th century Aztec narratives and others of that period. However, construction of the pyramid began in the 3rd century BC and stopped in the 10th century, long before the rise of the Aztec empire encountered by the Spanish. Languages and political and religious ideologies in a given area change or shift through time. Under the circumstances, the circa-1520 explanations of the origin of the pyramid and associated terminology cannot be uncritically accepted as the same as those of the original builders.

Kent
2/21/2021 11:33:14 am

"Lemme tell ya Claudette, I really thrashed that guy on the internet!
Yes, another Courvoisier, please!
Lemme tell ya about another time I thrashed a guy on the internet!
Claudette? Claudette?
Hmmm."

Doc rock
2/21/2021 12:20:22 pm

Patrick,

I dont think that these complexities are considered in Carpenter's "court of reality." But as you have seen here, people often have very interesting takes on reality.

Maybe some parallels with the difference between how the Inca interpreted pre-Inca sites to the Spanish and what earlier societies actually said and did?

Bill from Machu Picchu
2/22/2021 10:01:02 am

Saying an adult has an adult sized ego? You really got him there, Joe Kent.

Ancient Aliens Debunked discusses how the Inca probably spun an entirely new narrative about Puma Punku in discussing it with the conquistadors in order to support a certain party line about the place of the Inca in regional history.

Kent
2/22/2021 02:06:36 pm

In contrast to "the kiddie table". Try to follow along, won't you?

Patrick leary
2/22/2021 04:12:41 pm

Doc Rock:

In interactions with the Spanish, the Inca sometimes portrayed anything that might pre-date them as the work of gods. It supported a "we were here first" agenda when discussing the history of the area. If the discourse is rooted in the supernatural then the terms and concepts used would reflect this association. If the original builders perceived things differently then obviously there will be a sharp distinction between their terms and concepts associated with any given construction. That's why 16th century etomological discussions and myths would tend to be irrelevant to an understanding of all of the specifics of why sites were built. Similar processes could be at work for some sites discussed in the article that Jason Colavito's review was quite clearly focused upon.

Bill from Machu picchu
2/22/2021 09:05:37 pm

An adult is going to have an adult sized ego in contrast to a kiddie table. Thanks for further clarification of the obvious there, Howard Cosell.

I don't think that Korsakoff's Syndrome means what you think that it means.

Habla Espanol, Doc Rock?

Doc rock
2/28/2021 12:24:27 pm

Bill,

I habla just enough to order a jumbo margarita and some other odds and ends. Proud to say that my Spanish repertoire does not include phrases such as, "could you please let me contact the American Embassy."

My linguistic capabilities are limited to some Pennsylvania Dutch (to put it in terms understandable to most here) and some Haitian Creole.

Yes, I would imagine that anywhere one goes there is going to be some interesting contrasts between how the builders of monumental structures described them compared to later peoples. Leaves plenty of wiggle room for the lunatic fringe to wiggle away at playing interesting etymological games to support their spin.

Anthony G.
2/17/2021 03:01:44 am

The Christian missionary influence could go back a few more centuries then previously thought. Quite possibly as early as 1025 AD. Likely before this time but, this is when we've found the first evidence of a Christian influence in North America.

I stand corrected about Christian influence in North America prior to 1500. I was wrong. The cartographers have proven me so. The Spanish found what was already a relic church in the 1400s. Some of the pseudo historians may be partially right. That's hard to admit.

Reply
Scott Hamilton
2/17/2021 12:25:55 pm

What are you talking about? Did you see one of the deceptive headlines about the 12th century monasteries Hearst shipped over in the 1920s ('the oldest church in America predates Columbus', etc) and didn't bother to read the whole thing?

Reply
Jim
2/17/2021 02:14:32 pm

Scott, he is buying into Wolter's sidekick Patrick Shekleton's (Phippsburg History Center) pareidolia nonsense, where he sees things in antique maps etc. Mostly he sees the Newport Tower.
Patrick also spotted the foundation of the nonexistent Newport Tower "church chancel" using 1940s aerial photos to peer beneath the surface of the ground.

Patrick sees things ! And now Anthony does too.

https://www.facebook.com/Phippsburg-History-Center-114338978642314/

Anthony G.
2/18/2021 01:32:09 am

Jim...JIMMY... The Jimster...
Jimellingalingdingding,

You are letting your unhealthy obsession get in the way of rational thought. The man at the Phippsburg History Center is not anyone's sidekick. Nether is the guy doing a poor man's version of multispectral imaging with his cell phone. Neither of these two men work for, or are affiliated with the aforementioned Scott Wolter. That is an assumption you are making. Like you, Jim, Scott Wolter doesn't see the all of the icons. The two of you have more in common than you think.

I will let the publicly available evidence speak for itself. The first signs of Christian habitation on North American soil goes back to at least 1025 AD. That pushes the Christian missionary aspect, in any possible cultural contamination back several centuries. I had publicly stated in the past that Jesus had nothing to do with North America prior to 1,500 AD. I was making a public admission of being wrong. Way wrong! Taking my crow with barbecue sauce and a shot of Tabasco.

No one is speculating about any Catholic military orders. We are holding back, Jim. My cellphone has done more than reveal tiny icons, and revive medieval maps. I soon hope to take away the stain of imbecility placed upon an institution of higher learning. Unfortunately, Jim, I won't be able to do the same for you.

Damn, Jim. You act like I'm preaching stone holes, or bragging about a credit card and toothpick test.

Kent
2/18/2021 07:18:18 am

Just more nonsense from Anthony "It's all 'stronomy" Warren. Note the idiosyncratic use of the comma. "The Spanish found what was already a relic church in the 1400s." In Spain, perhaps. Pull the other one.

Kent
2/18/2021 10:49:51 am

Jim, let me help you out. Call me Clarice if that helps, for lo I have studied this one and his simpleton lore for many a couple of years!

It's important to in these cases to identify the sycophant in the relationship. In this case it is our Anthony; Shekleton is the alpha. This can be seen by reading the posts on Scott Wolter's blog.

"Like you, Jim, Scott Wolter doesn't see the all of the icons."
= "Even Scott Wolter quails before the enormity of our nonsense."

" The first signs of Christian habitation on North American soil goes back to at least 1025 AD."
= Lie or delusion, reader's choice.

I hope you will continue to point out the nonsense. Looks like someone's back from Chateau 5150.

Jim
2/18/2021 11:44:26 am

Anthony, there is simply no point debating your evidence free pseudo speculative crap that you put forth as facts.
Perhaps you should go back to Wolter's blog and commiserate with your buds Patrick and Scott,
Aren't you being majorly tone deaf coming to Jason's blog and putting forth this nonsense, you and your ilk must think this is Bedlam with the inmates running the show.

And as far as Patrick goes "The man at the Phippsburg History Center is not anyone's sidekick,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. Neither of these two men work for, or are affiliated with the aforementioned Scott Wolter."
Ya sure Anthony.

Wolter:
"Recently, friend and fellow researcher, Patrick Shekleton,,,,,,"

http://scottwolteranswers.blogspot.com/2018/03/

Patrick accompanied by his son also went with Wolter and his wife on his little jaunt to Nova Scotia where he claimed Ponce de Leon carved the Overton stone. Of course being Wolter and Patrick, they ignored the no trespassing signs and Wolter even had the gall to vandalize the Overton Stone by hammering off samples of the stone which he believed to be a historic monument. This with out any permission from the Canadian authorities, and illegally smuggled said samples across an international border.

http://scottwolteranswers.blogspot.com/2017/10/did-ponce-de-leon-carve-overton-stone.html

So ya, Wolter and Patrick are as thick as thieves and collaborate on this nonsense.

Anyhoo, as I said, it's pointless discussing anything with you so, see ya.

Anthony G.
2/18/2021 07:32:00 pm

So...The two of you have absolutely nothing.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Community/Phippsburg-History-Center-114338978642314/

How about some really old publicly available information. See what we've pulled out of the 1025-1050 Cotton World Map. There is more than one post.

It's cool to see tweedle dumb and dumber come together in a common cause. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, after all. Shouldn't you two be arguing over the international date line and what's east and what's west???
I have the scientific method, modern technology and rational thought on my side. Jim thinks because someone meets a celebrity one time, they should automatically start babysitting their kids or watching the house? You really do have some deep-seated stalker issues don't you?

Speaking of stalker issues. The many incantations of Kent, or inkentations have been hanging upon my every word for years. Even when it's someone else pretending to be me. My astronomy has come in quite handy studying cartography. As well as my limited knowledge of heraldry. I'm in the process of correcting that limitation. Heraldry helps explain quite a bit of the symbolism used on these maps. Especially helpful in identifying the tiny flags. Many represent kingdoms which no longer exist. Yet, at one time, they were claiming land in America. Long before Columbus.

Please, keep talking. PLEASE!!!

This will make the upcoming Vinland vindication that much sweeter.

We can't help who cherry picks our information. Publicly available at the Phippsburg History Center and some of it on Academia.

Jim
2/19/2021 12:53:29 pm

"So...The two of you have absolutely nothing."

That's not how it works Anthony.
If you are the one making a fantastical claim, then the onus is on you to prove it. It's not up to myself, Kent or anyone else to try to disprove a figment of your imagination.

The core at the center of Jupiter is filled with Cadbury's Milk Chocolate,,,,,prove me wrong.

Phippsburg History Center:

https://scontent.fyxe2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/150666305_3690661394343370_957295344692824993_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=3&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=4AeWW4_C82oAX9FTsPh&_nc_ht=scontent.fyxe2-1.fna&tp=7&oh=564278028834cb39cc4d8346cebeace8&oe=6054E741

Hahahahaha,,,

Kent
2/19/2021 03:14:29 pm

If Jim and I say "stop being such an idiot" it's worth considering.

Anthony G.
2/19/2021 03:17:43 pm

What the hell, Jim? Are you suffering from vascular dementia? I point out the iconography from the 1025 Cotton World Map and you jump 534 years into the future to the 1559 Andreas Homem & Francisco Falerio. You obviously didn't look at the PDF for PowerPoint presentation. They BOTH contain the identical information. Either one will do, Jim.

Like I said. You've got nothing.

I have not made any "fantastical claims". You have done that. I have merely pointed out facts publicly available on Facebook and Academia.

What makes it most blatantly obvious you didn't check out the provided link...You had nothing to say about the trademarked symbol found on the Cotton map. The symbol you've been crying foul about for years now.



Kent
2/19/2021 03:48:42 pm

"facts publicly available on Facebook"

Jesus fucking wept.

Jim
2/19/2021 05:03:50 pm

Bless your heart Anthony.
Could you please give us some links that prove this, (whatever this is) that are facts publicly available on "Academia"?

Thank you.

Anthony G.
2/19/2021 07:29:41 pm

"Jesus wept"

Oh really...Which Jesus was that???

The combined attributes of the Sun and Moon?

Polaris?

Bootes?

Are you catching "wiffs" from your computer again?

Kent
2/20/2021 05:44:49 pm

No stars, dead Palestinian. Simple simple.

I'll let you in on a little secret:

If you act like a mental patient people will treat you like a mental patient. You act like a mental patient.

Phippsburg History Center has no address or telephone or website. Because it's some idiot's Facebook page. It's another temple of that para iddly stuff. This is not Anthony Warren's fault, it belongs to the Alpha, Shekleton. Sure they may hunt together for things that don't exist, but it's understood who the sycophant is.

Bob Jase
2/17/2021 05:12:42 pm

And that is why oral tradition can;t be trusted.

Reply
T. Franke link
2/18/2021 12:14:28 pm

The author did not finish his archaeology studies because he "discovered that they were not practicing objective science". Finally he studied anthropology and religion (do they practice "objective" science?). And he has more nonsense articles on Ancient Worlds than only this one, each of them on a completely other topic, each of them claiming a very "alternative" explanation. This is simply too much, there is finally no credibility in the author himself.

Reply
Rock Knocker
2/18/2021 09:55:42 pm

Regardless of all the mindless blah blah blah above, I really like the new look of Jason’s site, and the new photo of the proprietor.




.

Reply
Anthony G.
2/19/2021 03:43:40 pm

That's a much better picture you're now using Jason Colavito. I really like your stained glass window! If you zoom in on your eye, it looks like the floral pattern is growing from your pupil. I've actually managed to turn it into a work of digital art. Never to be published. It sure looks cool though.

Reply
Jim
2/19/2021 06:33:27 pm

It's my understanding that Patrick has already spotted the Newport Tower in the reflection from Jason's glasses.

Reply
Anthony G.
2/19/2021 08:14:04 pm

How to create your own Jason Colavito Eye Artwork.

Find picture

Zoom in on his left eye

Take screenshot

Bring up screenshot

Open crop function

Using the rim of his glasses as a template, crop out everything else

Save

There's your artwork template to be further manipulated digitally.

The man has beautiful stained glass windows!

Kent
2/19/2021 07:53:11 pm

You don't see the person reflected in his eye you imbecile? You are really not good with images.

Reply
Charles Verrastro link
2/21/2021 02:39:34 pm

This is slightly off target but as Jason elsewhere has discussed the myth of the Pillars of Enoch as it morphed through the ages I might mention I am writing an article touching on that somewhat. The Welsh bard (and forger) Iolo Morgannwg in his book 'Barddas' wrote a mythical history of the origin of writing in the Celtic lands. His lengthy and intricate invented alphabets and writing boards have long been discounted, but the origin tale itself has been almost totally overlooked, except for those modern neo-druids and pagans who still believe it is genuine ancient Celtic lore. It is, to a point. He creates a pre-duluvian culture hero called Einigen the Giant who has a revelation and is inspired to carve all the arts and sciences onto a Stone of Wisdom. The figure does have some association to an Irish legend of a similar ancient giant who also carries a pair of stone tablets with all the knowledge of the past world engraved thereon. But there are also Christian echoes of Moses and his tablets, the True Cross, the Holy Grail, the Masonic Pillars (Iolo was a hereditary freestone mason by trade and a probable speculative freemason), as well as themes from the legends of the Hyperborean giants, and even some actual Druidic practices.
One always has to look closely at supposed traditions and see what influences may have added features over time until the original germ has blossomed into a tangled thicket.
BTW, my grandmother taught me to play tarocchi with the cards. Tarot was a simple game of chance with Christian emblematic figures drawn from medieval European ranks of society and cultural motifs, whatever other influences may have crept in from the East during the Crusades. It wasn't until the time of Casanova cards were used for fortune-telling. Even the Gypsies I know tell me their 'dukkering' (fortune-telling practices) didn't use cards until the beginning of the nineteenth century. Not everything goes back into prehistory.

Reply
Brian
2/22/2021 08:25:21 am

The Tower of Babel story is in the same chapter in Genesis as Noah, yet there's no mention in the primary source of the notion that humanity was simply trying to establish terra firma beyond the floodline. It's interesting that the Cherokee text is more explicit about the relationship between building high and not drowning.

Reply
Kent
2/22/2021 08:04:59 pm

In Genesis the Tower of Babel is well After the Flood (a fine Grateful Dead album) but since the Flood never happened it doesn't really matter does it?

"Let's see what the Hebrews said! Let's see what the Cherokees were told to say! Let's see what the people in the asylum or on the park bench say!"

Reply
Pacal
3/13/2021 12:24:58 pm

Just a point. The Great Pyramid of Cholula cannot have much to do, or anything to do for that matter with the Tower of Babel, given that it was built in stages between the 3rd century B.C.E. and the 8th century C.E., long after the dates given for the Tower of Babel. It is, apparently, the largest pyramid in the world with a volume of 4.45 million cubic meters. For comparison The Great Pyramid is 2.5 million cubic meters. Quite impressive!!

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        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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