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Were the Knights Templar Hunting Hermetic Knowledge in Harran?

11/20/2019

53 Comments

 
I managed to injure my wrist shoveling heavy, wet snow yesterday, so it is a little difficult for me to type today. As a result, I am going to (try to) be brief. In Ancient Origins this week, eco-apocalyptic thinker Lucy Wyatt tries to make an argument about why the Knights Templar were interested in the ancient city of Harran, the longtime seat of the Sabians, until rural Muslim militias destroyed their community in the 1030s. Wyatt argues that St. Bernard of Clairvaux and the Knights Templar participated in the Second Crusade in 1145 in order to have a pretext for invading Harran to steal the Sabians’ Hermetic and alchemical secrets, since the Sabians were well-known Hermetic philosophers.
It is important to reflect at this point on what might have been the genuine mission of the Knights Templar. There is no doubt that St Bernard played a key role in creating the cover story that this select group of religiously inspired crusaders existed to protect the routes to Jerusalem. But given the low numbers of Templars, at least to begin with, this explanation does not make sense.
 
What is more plausible is that they had a presence in the Near East because, after the First Crusade in 1097, St Bernard and others from the Court of Burgundy became aware of occult knowledge contained in a body of writings known as the Corpus Hermeticum - considered to be ‘older than Noah’ - having been composed by Hermes Trismegistus and therefore of great interest. And one group of people who knew a lot about the Hermetica was the Sabians, who lived in Harran at the time of the Crusades.
We can dispense with this with a few facts. First, the Sabians were gone in 1145, having been driven out a century earlier and their lunar temple and its sacred relics destroyed. (Later, the traveler Jordanus had only this to say about Harran: “Concerning Aran I say nothing at all, seeing that there is nothing worth noting” [Mirabilis 10, trans. Yule]). Second, there was no secret about Harran to uncover. The Sabians were famous in their day, known across the eastern world as keepers of Hermetic secrets. For centuries, Islamic writers had described them and their secrets, and their “Egyptian” wisdom was so proverbial that their version of astrological paganism became a watchword for any pre-Islamic pagan faith. Their practices, similarly, were not unknown. Here is Al-Dimashqi describing their “secret” rites performed at the Giza pyramids in his Cosmography before 1327:
According to the opinion of the Sabians, one of these pyramids is the tomb of Agathodaemon, identical with the prophet Seth, and the other is that of Hermes or Idris the prophet, whom we have previously mentioned; the colored pyramid belongs to Sāb b. Hermes who gave the name to the Sabians. They make pilgrimages (here) and immolate a rooster, by whose convulsions at the moment of immolation they claim to know that which is hidden about the future. (my trans.)
Al-Maqrizi, however, said that the holocaust of roosters occurred in honor of the Sphinx, not the pyramids. Either way, it doesn’t really matter for our purposes. The point is that this stuff wasn’t a secret and was widely discussed across the Eastern world. The Templars need not have invaded in search of it, since the caliphs made off with whatever secrets there were in their many encounters with the Sabians over the years.
 
That leads me to Wyatt’s other misrepresentation. Consider this passage discussing how the Sabians maintained their independence after the coming of Islam:
What kept the Sabians safe and allowed them to continue with their practices was a reference to them in the Koran. The Koran acknowledged that the Sabians were of the religion of Noah and therefore accorded them respect. The precariousness of their existence is, however, recorded in the story of the Caliph of Baghdad who passed through Harran in 830 AD.
 
He wanted to know if those who dressed differently were ‘people of the book’ (i.e. the Koran or Bible). Fortunately, he accepted the response that the Sabians’ ‘book’ was the Hermetica, their prophet was Hermes, and they were the Sabians referred to in the Koran and so they were spared from death as infidels.
This is not exactly how the story goes. The Qur’an mentions “Sabians,” but the people of Harran only adopted the name when the caliph told them that they would be destroyed unless they accepted Islam or were “peoples of the book” protected by Allah’s command. So they hired a lawyer who discovered that “Sabians” weren’t defined in the Qur’an. Therefore, they promoted Hermes to the status of their prophet—not because they were, as Wyatt alleges, refugee Egyptian priests preserving Hermetic lore—but because Islam itself recognized Hermes Trismegistus as the Islamic prophet Idris and the Jewish patriarch Enoch. (“The Hebrews say that he is the same as Enoch, which is to say in Arabic, Idris,” as the Persian astrologer Abu Ma’shar wrote around 850 CE.) By having a suitably Islamic prophet and a Qur’anic (if fictitious) name, they out-lawyered the caliph, who had to leave them alone.
 
Needless to say, Wyatt’s sources are all fringe books, like those of Adrian Gilbert, rather than actual historians, much less primary sources.
53 Comments
TONY S.
11/20/2019 09:26:14 am

Sorry about the way injury, Jason. Take care of your wrist, hope it’s not too serious and you mend quickly.

The core of this idea, that:

1. The low number of Templars at the beginning of the history’s order indicates they were there for some other purpose

2. They had obtained information from the Court of Burgundy and other selected French courts (Troyes, Champagne) before departing for the Holy Land about lost esoteric knowledge hidden there

comes from Lincoln and Baigent’s HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL in the late 70s and early 80s, and updated in the late 90s by Knight and Lomas in their books THE HIRAM KEY and THE SECOND MESSIAH. I read then at the time of their publishing. It’s an old tale that this author is trying to repackage to sell her book. This is a classic example in real time of how fringe authors endlessly recycle the same dreck every few years to the gullible and credulous.

There is archaeological evidence that shows the Templars were involved in digging under the Temple in Jerusalem. But there is zero proof of what it was they were looking for. There exist no contemporary accounts of their activities at this time. The closest would be William of Tyre’s HISTORY OF DEEDS DONE BEYOND THE SEA, but he was writing half a century later.

In all probability, if they were searching for something, it would have been relics mentioned in the Bible, such as the Ark, or the Temple treasures hidden from Rome a thousand years earlier by the priests at the time of the city’s sacking in 70AD. We know from the Copper Scroll that certain things were secreted around the city. But by the time of the First Crusade I doubt anything would have been left to find from that era.

Reply
TONY S.
11/20/2019 09:31:42 am

Addendum:

Lest anyone think I believe in the existence of the Ark, I do not. There is no evidence for its existence outside of the Bible. But the Templars of that time certainly may have believed it existed and that it lay hidden somewhere under the Temple.

Reply
Kent
11/20/2019 01:06:46 pm

You can't prove that they weren't!!!

I'd like to hear about this "archaeological evidence". Was there a unique Templar digging style?

Reply
TONY S.
11/20/2019 06:49:17 pm

Nothing extraordinary. Early crusader period detritus in and below the former stables of Solomon within the hollowed out tunnels, amongst which were found Templar style crosses.

According to William of Tyre, the Templars were the only ones with access to that area of the Temple for many years. Now I haven’t seen the actual field reports from the 19th century British team that did the excavation. So I don’t know anything about the stratigraphic layers they were found in. It’s certainly possible that the crosses, which were specifically Templar in style, were introduced later than the period when the tunnels were dug, subsequently dropped by later crusaders.

Kent
11/20/2019 07:10:33 pm

You'll forgive me for being skeptical. That's the Ancient-origins.net line, therefore suspect, but even they say William of Tyre is not a reliable source on this question.

Lucy and Wyatt were the two main protagonists of that time machine show that got cancelled and then brought back. Hope I didn't get that wrong, would hate to set off the Jim-alarm.

TONY S.
11/20/2019 07:48:56 pm

You bring up two good points. First, it’s a shame, but because the fringe has essentially co opted the subject of the Templars for their conspiracy theories, any discussion these days about their history or the archaeological research concerning them is tainted by association. I don’t blame you for having Ancient Origins spring to mind. It’s just frustrating and annoying that the conspiracy theorists have glommed onto what is actually a very interesting topic, one that’s fascinating on its own without their fantasies attached.

Second, while I wouldn’t say he’s unreliable on the whole, it’s true that William of Tyre should be treated with caution. He was writing decades after the events he describes, and there’s no evidence whatsoever he was using primary documents that were later lost. Also, it’s obvious his Christian bias gets in the way of his historical objectivity.

A C
11/21/2019 05:39:09 am

I don't think Templar specific crosses even existed. The usually claimed Templar Cross is from the Portuguese Knights of Christ and the famous Maltese Cross wasn't adopted by the Hospitlars until after the dissolution of the Templars.

Charles Warren, one of the two leaders of the 1867 Palestine Exploration Fund expedition who did the excavations wrote at least four books about Palestine. Then he went off to London to become Commissioner of Police just in time to fight Jack the Ripper.

https://archive.org/details/recoveryofjerusa00wilsuoft/page/n12

https://archive.org/details/undergroundjerus00warruoft/page/n8

He seems pretty much only interested in architecture over artifacts and doesn't have any chapters on the medieval period.

TONY S.
11/21/2019 09:46:18 am

A.C.,

Yes, Charles Warren and the 1867 Palestine Exploration Find expedition was what I was referencing, thank you for jogging my memory.

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it! Jack the Ripper is another very interesting topic, as is Victorian crime in general.

Kent
11/21/2019 12:37:07 pm

"There is archaeological evidence that shows
the Templars were involved in
digging
under the Temple in Jerusalem."

Still waiting for that archaeological evidence of digging.

CALEB SEARCHER
11/21/2019 02:50:39 pm

Joe Scales: “Jason knows that Joe and I are two different people.”


Still waiting for the evidence that you, Joe and Americanegro are all different people.

Joe, Americanegro, Kent
11/21/2019 03:21:33 pm

Three very different people, and that's so transparently obvious.

CALEB SEARCHER
11/21/2019 07:31:46 pm

“Obvious” is the right word.

Jr. Time Lord
11/21/2019 11:01:51 am

Tony S.,

I do not recall any Templar crosses being found. Charles Warren found at least one broken sword, and a spur. IF these people came to excavate, they brought the wrong equipment with them. What the Knights allegedly did find is code for the summer solstice. The triangle of gold set in a cube of agate. It's the same symbolism behind the Ark of the Covenant and the Royal Arch.

If you peel away all of the bullshit from the Templar books, it becomes apparent that someone got a hold of Ptolemy. Like the astronomer John Greaves, these people wanted to see the stars that Ptolemy saw. I liken it to inheriting the keys to the car. The interest in Harran was likely their Lunar information. One of the keys to calculating longitude is the ability to predict a lunar eclipse. Just like Ptolemy described.

I am interested in the powers behind the order. Not the rank-and-file fighting men who were protecting and securing trade routes. I do agree with you. A very interesting topic mired in bullshit.



Reply
TONY S.
11/21/2019 11:47:54 am

Hey Jr. Time Lord. Thanks for responding.

As hard as this is to admit in public, I think I referenced Hoky Blood, Holy Grail by mentioning “Templar crosses”. Ugh. That’s embarrassing! It just goes to prove how important primary sources are to have handy. My library’s in storage.

I too am interested in the power behind the order; also the structure of the organization itself and it’s many different facets. When it comes to military history in general I’m not very interested in details like troop numbers of battle tactics. I do find the Templar battles, the personalities involved on the front line, and the effects their rivalry with the Hospitallers had on the overall political and strategic events during the early crusades interesting. An excellent source for that is John Robinson’s Dungeon, Fire and Sword: A History of the Knights Templar during the Crusades.

William Smith
11/24/2019 10:00:16 am

The symbols of the Templars seem to be different that the symbols of The Portuguese Knights of Christ. It looks like the military order of the Knights of Christ was after the expulsion of the Templars. The specific Knights of Christ cross had 45 degree ends on the vertical and horizontal bars and is shown in the new world on carvings at Dighten rock site as well as the recorded symbol of the cross on the fishing ships which were under the control of the Portuguese military.
As for the lunar navigation it was a tool used for longitude estimating well before the Templars. Lunar navigation was simple observation by observing the position of the moon at mid day sun and recording it over time to see if the 12 degree movement of the moon was more or less than its normal movement. The difference in the normal movement in a fixed location and a moving east or west position would provide an estimate of longitude travel over time.
The symbols found in the new world that some indicate are Templar are bull shit. The cross, the shield, the triangle, the circle with the cross, and carvings of the moon in many cases are the 15th & 16th symbols for The Portuguese Knights of Christ.

TONY S.
11/20/2019 07:15:34 pm

Nothing to forgive. I prefer the skeptic way of thinking myself. Personally I loathe Ancient Origins.

I’m a little rusty on details and don’t have my crusader era books with me at the moment. Admittedly the evidence is scant. There’s more than what I’ve given you, but still the evidence is sparse.

Reply
Origin of the rubbish
11/21/2019 08:34:58 am

The fantasy crap about the Templars going on an archaeological mission to the Jerusalem Temple originated in 1966 in the book by Jules Charpentier Les mystères de la cathédrale de Chartres

This atrocious crap is never credited as the source of the fantasy. Charpentier even provides fantasy non-existent quotes of St Bernard de Clairvaux in his book.

Reply
Charles Warren
11/21/2019 08:42:40 am

Boring - after all, he was inevitably going to find Templar relics in a place that was occupied by the Templars. This does not support Charpentier's crap.

Reply
ANTHONY WARREN
11/21/2019 09:59:39 am

Exactly, Charles. Hello brother!

So please tell me Origin: What is so odd about finding evidence of Templar occupation WHERE they lived? You’re telling me that they had their headquarters there, stabled their horses under the temple, had exclusive access to the area, yet never explored it for signs of anything left behind by the former occupants of biblical times?

If you’re saying however that there was no grand preconceived plan organized by a group of Frenchmen to form a military order as a cover once they reached the Holy Land to search for occult knowledge once they got there, then I’m right there with you.

The two things are not the same.

Evidence of History
11/21/2019 10:38:01 am

What a load of rubbish - Roman masonry is embedded within the Jerusalem Temple - that means the Templars could not have discovered anything that would previously have been discovered by the Romans before the Templars.

“EVIDENCE FROM HISTORY” DROPS THE BALL
11/21/2019 10:53:21 am

Of course there is Roman masonry in the Temple. You do realize that Romans rebuilt areas of the city that they previously devastated? Not the areas of the Temple we are concerned with here.

There is no Roman masonry in the stables beneath the Temple. Nor are there any traces of it at or near the foundations. Indeed, the Romans wouldn’t have bothered repairing those areas anyway.

Your attempts at clouding the issue by giving incomplete information without context are hereby dismissed.

Evidence of History
11/21/2019 01:32:16 pm

There was no Ark of the Covenant because there was no Exodus, there were no 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone, there was no crossing of the Red Sea, there was no Mount Sinai. There is only the contrived story in a book called The Bible.
.

Jerusalem Temple Facts
11/21/2019 01:37:11 pm

The Temple was razed and rebuilt again and again. It was entirely demolished by Titus under Vespasian in 70 AD, and the vaults underneath were altered after that period, Roman masonry being found embedded in later work. The Knights Templar did not, repeat not, find anything astounding to the Church on the site of the Temple, for nothing could have existed there which had not long been discovered before.

Rabbi Kent
11/21/2019 01:37:47 pm

RABBI KENT
11/9/2019 07:48:33 am
Alternatively, it's an attempt by the Hebrews to retcon their origin story and *claim* a connection with Egypt. Some Hebrews "lit out for the territories" in Twain's phrase, others followed, then they were all enslaved, then God displayed his super powers and they di di mau'ed across the Red Sea only to get lost in Saudi Arabia for 40 years. Along the way, more super powers.

The whole vaulting is Roman
11/21/2019 01:51:00 pm

"The whole vaulting, supported by semicircular arches, is Roman. I consider therefore that the last restoration was made by order of Justinian."

Shimon Gibson,
Below the Temple Mount in Jerusalem: A Sourcebook on the Cisterns, Subterranean Chambers and Conduits of the Ḥaram Al-Sharīf (BAR 1996)

Actually
11/21/2019 02:23:21 pm

That's actually a quote by Shimon Gibson from Jerusalem Explored: Being A Description of the Ancient and Mosern City by Ermete Pierotti, Volume 1, 1864 (free googlebooks download)

TONY S.
11/21/2019 02:58:14 pm

Very interesting facts concerning the vaulting’s construction history and what still remains today.

Thanks to the last several posters for providing that info.

Bezalel
11/21/2019 11:47:05 pm

Legend
Myth
Egypt
Babylon
Romans
Comacines
Templars Hospitallers Burgundians etc
Freemasons, others
The entire Ark arc; capstone, grail Enochian vault and golden plate, Kings Chamber, Temple, Hermetic/Emerald tablet, "ancient knowledge", ineffable word, lost word, ever and anon, simply encapsulates and symbolizes one subterranean and simultaneously overriding theme with many variants:
Ever elusive perfection...further symbolized by Euclidean/Platonic Geometry itself
Nothing more

Evidence of History
11/22/2019 02:47:27 am

All that "ineffable esoteric" crap just does not add up to anything at all - fill the blank in with whatever preferred desired belief.

Jr. Time Lord
11/23/2019 05:17:05 pm

The Ark of the Covenant is the same as the Royal Arch. Applying Geometry to a perceived celestial sphere at fixed points creating a 180° reference point. ALL of it boils down to the stars and wandering planets.

JIΛΛ
11/23/2019 09:10:20 pm

What an asshole. I cannot control myself.

No One Cares
11/23/2019 09:12:55 pm

180 degrees if pi bitch. Nothing to do with stars or Freemasons.

History of evidence
11/24/2019 07:38:28 am

"Fill in the blank" is exactly the point. Geometry symbolizes the universal source and extended circumference of everyone's belief, irrespective of what that particular belief is, regardless of how it evolves.
.
Freemasonry claims to protect and preserve this ancient abstract knowledge and each individual makes what s/he wants of it.
The freedom to do so is enshrined in our first amendment

Kent
11/24/2019 12:20:31 pm

What if I believe in the mass killing of all Freemasons and canning them in their own natural juices? First Amendment, right?

Freimaurer raus!

Jim
11/24/2019 12:49:28 pm

Kent:,,"What if I believe in the mass killing of all Freemasons and canning them in their own natural juices? First Amendment, right?"

What a stupid point of view, and you call other people imbeciles ?

You are free to say anything you want, doesn't mean you can't be charged with a crime for saying it though. (Hate crimes etc.)
You are free to shoot a gun in your country, that doesn't give you license to mow down 48 people in a church.

Grab a brain.

Kent
11/24/2019 02:35:29 pm

Jim. Jim.

What part of "What if" do you not understand?

I believe that all redheads should be herded into concentration camps and executed. Why? Because I hate them. I am saying that. Saying that is not a crime in my country. Jim.

You are perhaps the stupidest person I have ever encountered on the internet. That is really saying something.

"You are free to shoot a gun in your country, that doesn't give you license to mow down 48 people in a church."

I'm not free to shoot a gun in my own front yard. We have laws here. Jim. And I obey them. Jim. Why would I want to "mow down" (are you calling me a homo "mow" Jim?) people who are going to die eventually anyway? I'm not a puppet for you to play out your murder fantasies.

Jim
11/24/2019 03:17:59 pm

What if is extraneous dough-head


Kent
11/24/2019 04:51:08 pm

What if Jim could put together a sentence that actually meant something?

Charlton Heston
11/24/2019 05:30:20 pm

People in the US actually do have the freedom to fire a gun in their front yard depending on particular circumstances. The issue was the concept of freedom but with often significant limitations. You are free to shoot a pit bull that is mauling your child in your front yard. You are free to shoot someone trying to rape your wife in the front yard. Some towns and cities never actually outlawed discharging a firearm in city limits just for target practice. I lived in an area that looked like suburbs but was unincorporated township and it was legal to shoot deer in your front yard.

Of course, you can't shoot the paperboy as he approaches your front door because he is a ginger, though. Sorry Kent.

Two Live Crew
11/24/2019 07:10:48 pm

One can be arrested for making terroristic threats. If the President was a redhead and kent said that he was going to kill him because he is a redhead then Kent is going to jail. One can be arrested for disturbing the peace for saying just about anything in the wrong place at the wrong time. One can be arrested for repeatedly interrupting a court proceeding to announce that you are mad that the judge is a redhead and you think he belongs in a concentration camps.

As usual Kent's grasp of a complex issue is inadequate.

Kent
11/24/2019 10:50:56 pm

Where I live, we have something called a [REDACTED] within which one is not allowed to discharge a firearm. I happily obey that law.

One would would have to be a Jim or an idiot to say anything untoward about a Secret Service Protected Person. You're not going to goad me into doing that. No matter who's in office I just don't care enough.

Substitute "white man" or "person" for "red head" and good luck prosecuting that.

Your point is basically "You disagree with me so I'm going to talk about how my daddy is going to spank you." I'm sorry you were abused but it's not my problem.

Feel free to report me to whoever if that's your kink. Keep in mind they're gonna look at you too.

Dirty Harry
11/25/2019 10:28:14 am

You say lots of idiotic things here. So, throwing a fit and saying something that lands you in jail is plausible as it would be for many people in this country. The issue isn't whether one would have to be an idiot to do something. It is the limitations on things like speech and how saying what wants isn't a blanket freedom idiot or not. That was established and now you are trying to move the goalpost.

Please post the law or ordinance for your area which makes discharging a firearm in your front yard illegal under any circumstance.

"Your point was..." You got three words right. Everything before and after was, well, idiotic.

F. Lee Bailey
11/25/2019 11:04:15 am

There are many locales where it is illegal to own an unlicensed firearm AND illegal to discharge it in your yard. However, there are cases where authorities refuse to arrest or charge someone for doing this if it is clear-cut self-defense. Cases like this are sometimes discussed in the Armed Citizen section of National Rifleman magazine. There are many occasions where something may be illegal but people have the freedom to break the law under particular circumstances. I don't normally have the freedom to drive 90MPH down mainstreet but if I am being pursued by a gang of people shooting at me I would hope that I am free to do so without being arrested for felony speeding. Self-preservation trumps any number of laws in the US. Kent is well on his way to conducting a seminar on fractal wrongness in his discussion here.

Bezalel and HofA
11/28/2019 12:15:24 pm

Joe Scales aka Kent did say "what if..." to his credit.
However, it's stupid imbecilic unlettered moronic and immoral people like Joe Scales aka Kent for whom we must have laws to prevent (or at least punish) them from actually behaving how they believe.

Fear must be used to control religious people who otherwise ironically would commit all sorts of atrocities.
This is why freedom loving atheists are potentially the most moral and/or ethical people on the planet. They are nice DESPITE no promise of heaven or threat of hell.
Religious idiots however must believe in heaven or hell just to make them behave.
Who is more ethical?
This is not brain science or rocket surgery now is it. Joe.
Now is it it. Kent.

Kent
11/28/2019 02:48:39 pm

"Immoral"? Calm the heck down dude.

Buddhists are atheists who believe in multiple hells. The descriptions are quite colorful and available in y;know, books.

You can read a bit here about the later accretion of belief in a heaven and a hell onto Judiasm, a theistic religion.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/life-after-death/

Bless your heart.

Joe Scales
11/29/2019 09:14:57 am

"Joe Scales aka Kent..."

You love me so much, you see me in other people. Time to see a doctor mother-fucker. A doctor.

Bezalel
11/29/2019 11:34:49 pm

Joe Scales
Aka Kent
Your ability to evolve is stunted by your own asshole doubling as a mouth

Go bribe an exorcist you're not even half a Buddhist and you need help.

You're an ignorant reactionary who hates all forms of liberal philosophy and attempts to obfuscate that ignorance with strawman absurdities, pointing fingers at others while shitting out your pie hole.

Get a book and rather than reading it, actually study it's contents and practice it's precepts.
Do that with maybe 1200 or 1400 books and you'll be level with where you should have been 20 years ago.

Reread Siddhartha you obviously didn't get it the first time blünderkind

You're out of time.

Kent
11/29/2019 11:52:47 pm

It's not quite clear who you think you're talking to. I'm not a Buddhist and I don't come here so bozos can give me suggested readings.

"There are eight hot hells and eight cold hells, four neighboring hells, and a number of trifling hells."

"Sañjīva (等活), the "reviving" Naraka, has ground made of hot iron heated by an immense fire. Beings in this Naraka appear fully grown, already in a state of fear and misery. As soon as the being begins to fear being harmed by others, their fellows appear and attack each other with iron claws and hell guards appear and attack the being with fiery weapons. As soon as the being experiences an unconsciousness like death, they are suddenly restored to full health and the attacks begin again. Other tortures experienced in this Naraka include: having molten metal dropped upon them, being sliced into pieces, and suffering from the heat of the iron ground. Life in this Naraka is 1.62×10^12 years long. It is said to be 1,000 yojanas beneath Jambudvīpa and 10,000 yojanas in each direction (a yojana being 7 miles, or 11 kilometres)."

From the Longer Āgama-sūtra (y'know, a book):

"The first major hell is called Thoughts. The second is called Black Rope. The third is called Crushing. The fourth is called Moaning. The fifth is called Great Moaning. The sixth is called Burning. The seventh is called Great Burning. The eighth is called Unremitting. The Hell of Thoughts contains sixteen smaller hells. The smaller hells are 500 square yojana in area. The first small hell is called Black Sand. The second hell is called Boiling Excrement. The third is called Five Hundred Nails. The fourth is called Hunger. The fifth is called Thirst. The sixth is called Single Copper Cauldron. The seventh is called Many Copper Cauldrons. The eighth is called Stone Pestle. The ninth is called Pus and Blood. The tenth is called Measuring Fire. The eleventh is called Ash River. The twelfth is called Iron Pellets. The thirteenth is called Axes and Hatchets. The fourteenth is called Jackals and Wolves. The fifteenth is called Sword Cuts. The sixteenth is called Cold and Ice."

OOPS.

Siddhartha is a fine introduction to Buddhism for grade-schoolers.

There's nothing wrong with it but again I don't come here so bozos can give me suggested readings.

Interesting that you don't want to touch the Judaic third rail.

Bezalel
11/30/2019 07:00:12 am

Actually it is I who do not come here so bozos can give me suggested readings. Bozo.

My suggestion is to learn the difference between reading and study and keep quiet until you do.

Most idiots like you imagine that the B.S. degree is the end achievement, and it's not even the beginning. Bozo.

Joe Scales
11/30/2019 09:39:17 am

Bezalel, you imbecile...

You are the one. You are the imbecile partisan who believes I wish to argue politics, when in fact I simply point out irrational biases clung to by our host in this regard. But it's you, isn't it? The one polluting this board. The one who has such a hard-on for yours truly, you absolutely do see me in all you oppose here. You fucking imbecile. You truly are fucking stupid. So fucking stupid.

You are a menace. You are a pest. You are an imbecile. And please note, this is not ad hominem in response to any sort of discourse you present here. No. You present imbecility. Stupidity. Blind partisanship. Incapable of rational discourse. You are not the answer. You are the problem. The one who is lost. And your unrequited love for me ain't gonna help you fight your demons. Because you can't fight being an imbecile. It's simply who you are.

Now embrace it and move along. This is the last you get from me.

Kent
11/30/2019 03:12:50 pm

Sorry Bezalel, I didn't give you suggestions for reading other than "y'know, books" and wasn't even suggesting you read, just pointing out that information is available.

I have no clue what you're on about with this "B.S. degree" stuff. That's not a request for clarification, just pointing out that you may think you're writing more clearly than you actually are.

You really are a special sort of idiot.

Bezalel
12/1/2019 12:06:09 am

Joe Scales
Hahahahahaha. So precious you are.
You make it so easy to expose your partisanship and bias for all to see. Your only hope and recourse in attempted interchange is namecalling, one of the worst modes of communication; an INSTANT signpost of your ignorance, so vigorously hidden by your petulance.

It is your biased pollution everyone on this board tolerates, you never once pointing out conservative bias.

Over and over and over you just won't shut up.

I only swoop in rarely to take you to the woodshed and my do you know how to scream. And since you are so eager to notice my boner I hope you like the taste of me.
We know you enjoy the humiliation.
Do some real learning for once.
Remove your broken record from the turntable and look in the mirror.
Imbecile.
Bend over now here comes Kent.

ATTALUS OF PERGAMON
11/21/2019 10:13:50 am

Ah yes, Adrian Gilbert. The man who helped Robert Bauval write THE ORION MYSTERY back in 1991, and he’s been helping to drive the alternate history train ever since.

Primary sources and the works of actual historians have never been his style.

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          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
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