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West Virginia Museum: "Accelerating Probability" Europeans Reached America Thousands of Years Ago

5/15/2014

50 Comments

 
Last year I wrote a piece on the history of the Grave Creek Stone, also called the Grave Creek Tablet, a mysterious rock with alleged Old World characters found in Grave Creek mound in what is now West Virginia in 1838. As I discussed at the time, there is good evidence that the rock had been hoaxed by lost race theorist James W. Clemens, who had tried to exploit the mound as part of a money-making scheme and desperately needed an “Old World” discovery to help him make the dig a success. The Smithsonian’s Bureau of Ethnology reviewed the find and concluded it was most likely a hoax, earning the artifact a spot on the list of supposed finds that the Smithsonian took efforts to suppress.
Picture
Plaster cast of the Grave Creek Stone in the Smithsonian, where it was hidden and suppressed by being photographed and published.
The Grave Creek Stoneitself was lost a century ago, but casts were made and one is currently on display at a museum at the site of the Grave Creek mound called the Delf Norona Museum at the Grave Creek Mound Archaeological Complex, run by the state of West Virginia’s Division of Culture and History. The museum, which opened in 1978, is dedicated to the prehistoric earthworks of the area, especially the Adena mounds. One of the exhibits chronicles the Grave Creek Mound and its excavation, and archaeologist Ken Feder, author of the Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology, visited the museum a few weeks ago. He told me that despite the generally high quality of the museum’s archaeology exhibits, he found a surprisingly credulous claim in the exhibit space devoted to the Grave Creek Tablet. According to Feder, the exhibit makes the following extraordinary claim on the authority of none other than Barry Fell:
Exploration of American coastlines and rivers by Mediterranean seaman from 3000 to 500 years ago is a matter of accelerating probability as revealed by discoveries and decipherments of prehistoric rock inscriptions.
And here I thought that the government was actively trying to suppress diffusionist claims and that museums were actively hiding the “truth”!

Feder also sent me the Museum’s list of others’ proposed translations for the Grave Creek Stone, which is surprisingly funny when taken together. Consider this: No one can decide which language the tablet is supposed to be written in (though Phoenician is the most popular choice), and no one can agree on the supposed translation of the text, even when they agree that it’s Phoenician!
“The chief of emigration who reached these places (or this island) has fixed these statutes forever.” (Maurice Schwab, who apparently thought it Phoenician)

“Thy orders are laws, Thou shinest in thy impetuous elan, and rapid as the chamois.”  (Monsieur Levy Bing, who said it was Canaanite or Phoenician, but written backward)

“The grave of one who was assassinated here. May God to avenge him strike his murderer, cutting off the hand to his existence.” (Jules Oppert, who apparently thought it Phoenician)

“I pray (to) Christ His most holy Mother, Son, Holy Ghost Jesus Christ God.” (Buckingham Smith, who claimed it was a Catholic cipher)

“You hope to be imbued by measures of Purity, Manners, Industry, Misery, Folly, Strength.” (Joseph Ayob, claiming it was Phoenician)

“I knelt on the island, On’s Yule Site on Meadow Island. Now the island is a Hodd.” (Olaf Stranwold, who claimed it was Norse)

“The mound raised-on-high for Tasach, this tile (his) queen caused-to-be-made.” (Barry Fell, who claimed it was Punic)
Charles Fort copies some of the above translations in The Book of the Damned (1919).  Fort concludes that it should be “obvious to any mentality not helplessly subjected to a system” that the Grave Creek Stone is possibly more important to world history than the discovery of Australia (!), and he prefigures David Childress and Scott Wolter by asserting that such objects are “exhumed only to be buried some other way” by dogmatic scientists and museums. He further anticipates modern fringe writers in ordering the open minded to never admit a hoax. Instead, he says: “Accept anything. Then explain it your way.” Surely this is the motto for fringe history.

Fort incorrectly gives the author of at least one translation, due to misunderstanding the version of them given in Charles Whitttlesey’s “Archaeological Frauds” (1876), his acknowledged source. He misread the section describing Levy Bing and thought it belonged to M. Jomard instead.

Therefore, let me here add that M. Jomard believed that the inscription was Libyan, but could not translate it. A copy of the stone was also sent to Carl Rafn, the man who first attributed the Newport Tower to pre-Columbian European visitors, because some thought its inscription was connected to the mysterious characters on Dighton Rock, which Rafn had tried to connect to Scandinavia. But Rafn refused to endorse claims that the text was Norse runes. That would have to wait a century, for Olaf Stranwold. A guy named Mr. Schoolcraft split the difference and declared that the letters were from a variety of different alphabets: four Greek, four Etruscan, five Runic, six Gaelic, seven Old Erse, ten Phoenician, fourteen Old British, and sixteen Celtiberian. Rather than see this as evidence of forgery, Schoolcraft instead concluded that the only person to have that kind of command of language was someone in the entourage of the Welsh Prince Madoc! (Schoolcraft was close: As I discussed last year, anthropologist David Oestreicher found the stone’s symbols all appear in the 1752 book on undeciphered alphabets Ensayo sobre los alphabetos de las letras desconocidas by Luis José Velázquez de Velasco, marqués de Valdeflores, almost certainly the true source for the hoax.)

To this let me add a further statement by Monsieur Levy Bing, who makes a rather familiar claim for an allegedly Old World rock found in a New World context, based on what he thought was a sword icon: that it was a land claim! “This must represent the idea of Sovereignty and Conquest.” Methinks we’ve heard that claim a few too many times.

Writing about all of this in 1876, Col. Charles Whittlesey declared the thing an archaeological fraud, and after conducting research among those still living who had been present when the stone was uncovered in 1838, he noted that no one ever saw the stone embedded in the earth, only in the dirt piles being removed from the excavation site. This is interesting because Whittlesey was one of the first people to see Ohio’s so-called Newark Holy Stones, which included the Newark Decalogue Stone recently endorsed by Scott Wolter as an “authentic” Hebrew artifact. He begins by describing the men who testified to the Grave Creek Stone’s authenticity by way of introducing the idea that honest men could be taken in by a hoax:
No one questions the sincerity of their belief that it is of the age of the mound itself, but none of them state, or can state, that he saw the stone in its place. Both myself and the late Israel Dille, of Newark, O., saw the first of Wvrick’s “Holy Stones” in his hands, at the place where be said he uncovered it, within an hour after he said it was found, and while it was still partially encrusted with earth. It was seen the same afternoon by the Rev. Mr. McCarthy, who read the incription, and by a number of other citizens of Newark, including the late Dr. J. N. Wilson, all of whom then believed it to be ancient, and have so stated. They conceived Wyrick to be incapable of such a fraud. But when his second find occurred in November of the same year, embracing the ten commandments written in the same character, they began to be suspicious. Dr. Nichols, who was present, charged him with deception at the time. After his death proofs were found, showing that all the incriptions were made by him with great labor from an old Hebrew Bible in his possession. Since that time a party in the same region has confessed to the fabrication of more inscribed stones, which may account for the appearance of those which came into the possession of Messrs. Barlow and Bradner.
In a more elaborate version of the same, from 1872, Whittlesey also claims that the Freemasons recognized one of the Holy Stones as a Masonic keystone and that Wyrick faked the lot of the stones for money. However, J. Huston McCulloch contends that the Hebrew on the Decalogue Stone does not bear enough of a resemblance to nineteenth century Hebrew bibles for that to be the source. He also notes that Whittlesey incorrectly declared an Adena artifact, the so-called Cincinnati Tablet, to be a hoax and suggests that this meant Whittlesey was too quick to see fraud.

Whittlesey would remain deeply involved in the Grave Creek Stone controversy throughout the 1870s. In 1879 he delivered a third rebuttal to claims of its authenticity.

But what is more interesting just how closely the Grave Creek saga interacted with other fringe history claims from the period, not just the Newark Holy Stones (via Whittlesey) but also the Newport Tower and Dighton Rock (via Carl Rafn), the myth of a lost white race of Mound Builders (directly and also via E. G. Squier, who condemned the Grave Creek Stone), as well as advocates of the discovery of America by Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Welshmen. If there is one lesson to take from this, it is that fringe history claims are more closely connected to each other than we might at first think and that fringe history advocates see in ambiguous evidence a Rorschach test that reveals whatever conclusions they brought with them to their investigation.
50 Comments
Erik G
5/15/2014 07:28:09 am

I read 'The Book of the Damned' for the first time in the early '70s and remember being very disappointed by its snarky tone. In those days I wanted very much to believe in such mysteries and anomalies and hidden histories, but Fort didn't seem to be taking it at all seriously. When I reread the book many years later, I came to the conclusion that Fort was being deliberately cynical and that the work was very much a satire, I now see from a quick Internet check that he is reported to have said, "I believe nothing of my own that I have ever written." (from, sigh, Wikipedia -- because I have neither the time nor the inclination to delve too deeply into this). I'm convinced this is true. His targets appeared to be both the mainstream and the fringe, especially each side's dogmatic beliefs. I find it rather amusing that many of today's Forteans and fringe 'researchers' cannot see this.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
5/15/2014 07:55:41 am

His work is very much a type of performance art, and I have always thought of it is a sort of "based on a true story" bit of science fiction that anticipated the postmodernists' idea that all knowledge is subjective.

And of course Fort was from right here in Albany, NY, growing up not far from where I live now!

Reply
[jad]
5/16/2014 04:38:21 am

Charles Fort has his echoes of Will Roger's quip about
learning, knowledge and newspapers, given that the old
muckraker style gives way to Pulitzer's ethics code and
TIME's uniform standard by fits and starts. Newspapers
clearly would entertain in a Ben Franklin manner, and at
least be semi-accurate about current events. Accuracy is
and isn't sacrificed at times, depending on a paper's core
group of readers. its 50/50 odds the KRS is very real, and
carved on this continent. its most likely dating from between
A.D 1200 and A.D 1700 due to its unique rune & weathering.

[jad]
5/16/2014 04:44:49 am

this thread right now has 20 comments and anywhere
from 8 to 14 separate posters! Gunn lays out before us
WHY he thinks the KRS is legit, and once again he has
been hit with short quips that muddy academia's waters.

Gary
5/16/2014 05:24:42 am

jad, you must be reading a different post from me. Gunn laid out no evidence or reasons and I see many intelligent posts. Nothing is being muddied. The link below his is clear about the KRS being a hoax.

[jad]
5/16/2014 06:05:17 am

i should rephrase... once again Gunn was about to lay out
before us all WHY he thinks the KRS is legit and again, we
see these brief comments akin to the ones that litter the KRS
threads, and once again, we want to create a KRS thread in
this blog's forum area but many of us don't have the time to
link back to the better threads on this most unique topic???

.
5/16/2014 06:15:53 am

GOTO
Gunn's 1:01 p.m
posting...

he again lays it out.
had a feeling he would.

Pat
5/16/2014 02:06:02 pm

He's buried in Albany Rural Cemetery in Cohoes.

Gunn
5/15/2014 08:01:40 am

Jason, you seem to be overly hostile to fringe thinkers, which isn't fair when you also try to define what constitutes fringe thinking. I might think you are a fringe thinker when it comes to the TRUTH about the KRS, if we are talking about always seeking truth. A lot of fringe thinkers are good people, though some are worth attacking, I suppose.

Other than that, the image above seems to contain a hooked X of sorts. Pretty early, huh, when considering the KRS and Larsson Papers, etc. I wonder where the idea to put it on the stone, above, came from?

Reply
KENSINGTON RUNESTONE FACTS
5/15/2014 08:50:09 am

The Case of The Gran Tapes: Further Evidence on The Rune Stone Riddle
Minnesota Historical Society, Winter 1976

http://collections.mnhs.org/MNHistoryMagazine/articles/45/v45i04p152-156.pdf

Reply
.
5/16/2014 04:45:29 am

cool

.
5/16/2014 06:11:28 am

Raymond Dart + Louis Leakey boldly took on
academia proper... and they ultimately won out.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3026/was-sir-arthur-conan-doyle-responsible-for-the-piltdown-man-hoax

Gary
5/15/2014 08:52:04 am

Jason: " If there is one lesson to take from this, it is that fringe history claims are more closely connected to each other than we might at first think and that fringe history advocates see in ambiguous evidence a Rorschach test that reveals whatever conclusions they brought with them to their investigation."

Gunn: "the image above seems to contain a hooked X of sorts. Pretty early, huh, when considering the KRS and Larsson Papers, etc. I wonder where the idea to put it on the stone, above, came from?"

Reply
Jones the cat
5/15/2014 08:56:02 am

The Hooked X is everywhere.

.
5/16/2014 04:57:17 am

Were there the other examples of a Hooked X
being utilized between A.D 1300 and A.D 1600
so as to legitimize the KRS with examples of
a similar hand? If new examples crop up and
are accurately dated to being prior to our Revolution,
then the KRS increasingly becomes less unique.
was there actually a manuscript style that was
'invisible university" that someone around John Dee
or Robert Boyle would have been familiar with? Even
though Plantard's List is wrong, Keynes in the 1930s
is agast over how deeply into Alchemy Newton was.
if "freemason" or "knights templar" texts on vellum were
all around him, and Isaac Newton ferreted out as many
of them as he could, when testing out Alchemy in its
obtuseness as a hobby, the inferencew is that Newton
has had to have run into Hooked X spell books dating from
200 to 500 years before his time, due to how writing ages.
Newton had the focus of an Aspie on topics that are a hobby.
Runes are found in spellbooks + codebooks circa the 1600s.
Medievals would indiscriminately gather and pool a lore... and
Newton embodied the new age of Reason, Logic & Skepticism.

snarky snarkgrass
5/15/2014 09:29:03 am

Gunn: What you wrote above is more about you than Jason. It appears that you are a true believer in several areas that Jason believes are false. I think that you have a very strong need to have other people confirm your beliefs. You aren't going to make a disciple out of Jason or anyone else here. I think you would be a lot happier if you quit reading this forum and found another where folks are likely to agree with your beliefs.

Reply
Jake the mongrel
5/15/2014 09:35:12 am

In the beginning was the Kensington Runestone

Mandalore
5/15/2014 10:31:08 am

The KRS came out of the same time period that saw many forgeries and hoaxes about European travelers to America, like the Grave Creek Stone. The extraordinary claims made about the KRS being real require extraordinary evidence to establish its authenticity. There is a need to explain why one artifact is real in a sea of fakes, especially when there are serious allegations that it was faked as well. I for one am not convinced of its authenticity. I've read various theories trying to support it and I don't agree with the interpretations offered.

I'm not too surprised about the museum. I was up in Idaho a few years back and went to a dinosaur museum there that had an exhibit that said something along the lines of it being likely that Bigfoot was real because of all of the eye witnesses. (It was a while ago so I don't remember the details very well.) It was silly.

Reply
Sid the philosopher
5/15/2014 10:52:08 am

The world is full of fakes
The world is full of believers in fakes
No emotional comfort in historical facts

.
5/16/2014 05:02:10 am

does the age on the stone suggest its at least
200 to 300 years older than the cluster of very
similar looking fakes it seems to be surrounded by?
anything that gives it a degree of age makes it more
legitimate than some of the other discoveries at that
time. the arguments do not simply dovetail to one
simple conclusion. SW may have lucked into this!
he is spending time hunting for a similar success...

William
5/15/2014 11:08:30 am

I have no real vested interest in the KRS other than for it's argumentative value on these forums.

As someone who doesn't really care about it, wouldn't the simplest explanation for the "hooked x" just be a symbol that forgers thought was correct but just wasn't?

I mean there had to be somewhat of a like minded sub-culture in the historical community when many of these Victorian forgeries came to prominence.

Reply
JJ
5/15/2014 01:41:16 pm

if using your though line-by using the hooked X, what connection Would the Forgers have to each other?- the KRS, the Narragansett stone, Spirit Pond stones?

Varika
5/15/2014 02:20:34 pm

JJ, it's easy--they used the same work that had been published with the mistake in it to make their fakes. In the world of the published word, it doesn't take a conspiracy for a lot of people to do the same wrong thing, it only takes a printing error.

Though in this particular case, I believe KRS came first and the other two are faked to lend it credence, whether by the same person or not.

Watcher
5/15/2014 09:29:42 pm

What work and where was it published?
What are you referring to?
Or is this just meandering sauntering

.
5/16/2014 05:05:49 am

cut and dried observation. either there were
other vellum manuscripts with a Hooked X
rune between A.D 1200 and A.D 1700 due to
how Christianity entered Scandinavia, or there
wasn't a scribe's tendency to utilize a more
expressive rune alphabet that seems to have
evolved from an earlier and more Pagan way.

Varika
5/16/2014 04:56:09 pm

Watcher, it's speculative. JJ was implying that there was no way that multiple forgers could make the same mistake, so these things much be real. I presented a scenario in which multiple forgers need not have any connection with each other beyond drawing from the same source material. I'm not an expert on any of these stones, nor on runes. I was only making the point that not only is forgery possible, it's plausible.

Anon
5/15/2014 02:02:34 pm

Funny how many of the comments seem to miss the point of this post and have turned to yet another tedious conversation about the KRS. Jason's point of this post is to inform us that an established museum is giving some credence to fringe theories. Granted, the KRS and other similar artifacts are parts of the same fringe body, still having a museum seemingly approve of these persistent theories is disturbing on many levels, the least of which being encouragement.

Reply
Jones the cat
5/15/2014 09:27:52 pm

In the beginning was the Hooked X
All hail the Hooked X
So decree the Watchers, the Guardians of the Destiny of Mankind

Reply
JJ
5/16/2014 12:49:12 am

I agree with Watcher, here. Varika stated 'they used the same work that had been published'- many have looked for just that and found None, correct?

Reply
Varika
5/16/2014 04:58:15 pm

Reply on the correct thread, please, JJ. I addressed this above--and I also still maintain my opinion that the KRS is the work that later forgers copied from. Which I stated in my original post.

.
5/16/2014 05:11:32 am

the museum is making a judgement call. in a way, this is
like contrasting ONE, TWO or THREE sources and a given
journalistic accuracy code. if you have only one source, it
may be "golden" or totally lousy. Two sources that agree have
better odds of being correct, and three solid sources tends to
let you draw a conclusion. there could be the point in time
when three sources that look solid are wrong and your able
muckraker rival who ran with the scoop based on one solid
lead beats you to the punchline. lets think Piltdown thoughts.

Reply
.
5/16/2014 05:19:42 am

Hooked X?
SW is either
very wrong or
very happily
opinionated.
Hooked X = real?

Gunn
5/16/2014 06:01:22 am

Enough hooked X's have been found in both America and Scandinavian Europe to make an association.

Likewise, enough aged, triangulated stoneholes have been located in both American and Scandinavian Europe to make an association.

The metal weapons found throughout MN share exactitude with war weapons in Scandinavian museums.

Navigable waterways (plural) from oceanic sources converge far inland where many of these evidences were found.

And on top of all this, there is the existence of a genuine stone document dated 1362, which was not hoaxed, and which was verified as authentic by a professional geologist (Winchell) well before Wolter came along to muddy the waters. Granted, Wolter did a good job of putting everything together, initially, especially tying in all these aforementioned evidences with the KRS, but now he is muddying waters.

He is wrong about some of his conclusions about the KRS, but he is right about its authenticity, and I believe he was right to tie all these hooked X's together found on both sides of the Pond.

In my opinion, the various runestones found on the East Coast are as genuine as the KRS and as genuine as the Newport Tower dating back to well before the colonial period. I believe people on this blog are being misled about some truths of our American history. It's a shame.

See, "fringe" is in the eye of the beholder...here, the concept is a matter of descending definition and misinterpretation and finally, ill-will. The search for Truth is another matter, and that's what should guide us all.

Reply
Jones the cat
5/16/2014 06:16:17 am

There is no shortage of the Hooked X
It exists EVERYWHERE
Look under your bed, you'll find it there as well

Remember the Turin Shroud "research" of the 1970s - every single image resembling the face on the Shroud was a COPY OF THE SHROUD. Never vice-versa.

Reply
.
5/16/2014 06:27:35 am

luv... could we Christians have modified yesteryear's
Pagan runes very happily in addition to keeping alive
Augustus Caesar's Latin well past its hour? Many old
manuscripts are now dust. Many books did not survive
into the era of the printing press. if the Hooked X was
more common, what Scott Wolter has to determine is
WHERE the stone was, upon being carved, and if its
a copy of a much older stone. was it carved in say
NY state in the year A.D 1750 and then taken west,
because its a copy of a much older stone? or was it
carved in Minnesota before the year A.D 1550 and
easily predates ROANOKE, because many people
have sailed up and down our vast Eastern coastline.
If the location is Minnesota and the 1300s date is very
correct to within months, BINGO! its totally 100% real.

.
5/16/2014 06:33:52 am

lets try to rule out a Siberian trek for an intrepid team of
Scandinavian explorers who went across from Moscow to
the Pacific, and then went inland below Juneau, only to stop
near the Great Lakes, we know the Vikings once explored
the major rivers of Old Russia. Lets assume its an Atlantic
direction, and its a marker of an encounter at a crossroads.
could they have gone down the St. Lawrence or up the vast
Mississippi? is it possible to reach Minnesota way back then!

Gunn
5/16/2014 06:57:15 am

., "WHERE" the stone was? The stone was carved very near the location where it was found, weighing 202 pounds. The location WHERE the stone was most likely both carved and found is accurately described in the stone's message. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

Check out the Roseau Stone. Russian/Scandinavian? I would like to know anything new. It's worthy of discussion and update.

William
5/16/2014 07:54:47 am

Ok, all of us seem to agree to disagree on the Hooked X.

If it is off topic, sorry in advance, but the actual text of the stone even seems like it is intended to be read as a hoax.

So, I am to believe that 30 guys who were completely new to the area, thousands of miles away from home, after crossing the atlantic ocean made a camp in MN. Then, 20 of the guys went fishing at the exact same time one day. When they came back, they found 10 of their buddies dead. So they left. Walked a day south, and figuring they had got far enough away from the threat that killed their bros, just happened to think: before we leave we should stop here, find and move a 200 lb rock, get it formed so a message could be carved, carve it, and put it up as a monument.

How long would that take, meanwhile they are only a days walk from the scene of a grizzly mass murder.

Then, they leave, without a shred of evidence, and never to be heard from again, also leaving no names.


The story even sounds like a joke, but thats JMO.

Jake the mongrel
5/16/2014 07:57:13 am

Yep, the Hooked X is under the bed
It's everywhere

NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING
5/16/2014 08:01:03 am

What a waste of time this statement is...
., "WHERE" the stone was? The stone was carved very near the location where it was found, weighing 202 pounds. The location WHERE the stone was most likely both carved and found is accurately described in the stone's message. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!"

Gunn
5/18/2014 01:31:36 am

William, I'm glad you gave the matter some thought, but you have many of the details wrong. Let me explain things with a bit more accuracy, patiently, as is my custom here:

Thirty men arrived near Duluth, I believe, though some would say they arrived from Hudson Bay, taking streams downward. Evidence seems to indicate a St. Lawrence Seaway beginning approach. An aged carving exists of a medieval-style Norse vessel near Copper Harbor, MI, near the Lake Superior coastline. Rivers take you from near Duluth to within about 3 miles of Runestone Park, where the KRS was found back in 1898.

You have it wrong completely by assuming the 20 men (10 were left with the ship/s) were doing much walking. Except for a few portages, the men were gliding along on waterways. William, the 20 men arrived near Kensington, MN back in 1362 by traveling waterways, not by walking, except for about 3-4 miles.

After the massacre a day's travel (I believe literally a day's travel on the Chippewa River) north of Kensington, where the 20 men had been camped, the 10 survivors left back DOWNSTREAM and purposely left their craft and walked about 3 miles east to Runestone Hill, which they knew pre-existed. By this, I mean they knew the knoll was marked by a dozen or so stoneholes in rocks. I personally believe Runestone Hill was an inland mapping feature on a direct compass line between Duluth and where two oceanic waterways converge near the Whetstone River area of SD.

So, you see, William, the men were several miles away from the Chippewa River when they chose out and carved the KRS. They weren't in imminent danger because they had traveled back down the river a day's travel and then hiked inland a few miles...just out of earshot. Nobody brought a 202 lb. rock to Runestone Hill; it was already in the immediate area.

The KRS is not a joke, and I don't believe I've wasted my time here on this blog trying to convince a few people of its authenticity. Making up goofy hypotheses isn't helping, William, especially if you aren't even aware of many of the pertinent details. Everything I've come to understand about the KRS is based on correct details and then logic. The logic does then enter the arena of speculation, but at least my speculations are based on accuracy...unlike what you've come up with, and what Wolter has come up with on some points, etc.

The KRS is constantly attacked with false information and uneducated perspectives. My aim, ultimately, is to attempt to give dignity to the old relic, through defending the integrity of its detailed message. Some folks here on this blog are ignorantly messing with the memories of actual, intrepid human beings, in my opinion.

William
5/18/2014 05:08:10 am

Gunn,

It's really not a goofy hypothesis, I was just reading the stone as it is carved.

I know I will never convince you that the stone is a hoax, but seriously, that huge response you just typed to me has so much extraneous information that the KRS simply does not discuss, reference, or allude to in anyway.

The stone itself does not mention routes taken, preferred modes of transportation, whether the group was going upstream or downstream, the group's feelings about the level of imminent danger they were in, whether or not they were in ear shot of other unknown peoples.

I honestly thing adding the details is goofier than just reading the stone line-for-line. I'll remove the sarcasm from my "translation."

1. 30 people came on a trip west from Vinland.
2. They had a camp one day north of where they left the stone.
3. A certain number went fishing.
4. Since there were 30 to start, and 10 found dead, that leaves 20 people who were fishing simultaneously.
5. Hail Mary they were saved from evil that killed 10 of their companions.
6. There are 10 men watching our stuff 14 days away from here.

That's all it says!

Reply
Gunn
5/19/2014 07:52:11 am

William, you've still got it all screwed up. Forget all the nonsense you just put forth and only concentrate on your #4. Does that make any sense? No. You are obviously being illogical in the face of the logical speculations I carefully put forth. I could help you with more patience, but what's the point? You have a hard time being logical and you have a hard time following logical speculations. I feel a bit sorry for you, but not completely.

Reply
William
5/20/2014 07:58:23 am

Gunn,

See the thing is, if you just read what the stone itself has inscribed you could understand my logic. There is no need to be nasty about it, my intelligence, or anything else for that matter.

Since there is no other direct evidence to support the stones provenance, the only thing we can do is work with the stone.

To address your commentary:

"Thirty men arrived near Duluth, I believe, though some would say they arrived from Hudson Bay, taking streams downward."

The stone only specifies that there were 10 other people watching the ships 14 days travel away from the penisula or island. It does not specify if they meant 14 days from the north or any other direction. Theoretically, 14 days away could mean Sioux City instead of Duluth!

"You have it wrong completely by assuming the 20 men (10 were left with the ship/s) were doing much walking. Except for a few portages, the men were gliding along on waterways. William, the 20 men arrived near Kensington, MN back in 1362 by traveling waterways, not by walking, except for about 3-4 miles."

How do you know? The stone says "journey," sure it could be by boat, but not necessarily. Where did you come up with 3 - 4 miles based on what the stone says. That sounds like an opinion or belief.

"After the massacre a day's travel (I believe literally a day's travel on the Chippewa River) north of Kensington, where the 20 men had been camped, the 10 survivors left back DOWNSTREAM and purposely left their craft and walked about 3 miles east to Runestone Hill, which they knew pre-existed. By this, I mean they knew the knoll was marked by a dozen or so stoneholes in rocks. I personally believe Runestone Hill was an inland mapping feature on a direct compass line between Duluth and where two oceanic waterways converge near the Whetstone River area of SD.:

Again, why is it a fact that they traveled on the Chippewa River? How can you even tell from what the stone actually says that they even were traveling on water at all. I respect that you state the latter part of the paragraphy is your personal belief.

"So, you see, William, the men were several miles away from the Chippewa River when they chose out and carved the KRS. They weren't in imminent danger because they had traveled back down the river a day's travel and then hiked inland a few miles...just out of earshot. Nobody brought a 202 lb. rock to Runestone Hill; it was already in the immediate area."

The stone does not say that they left via a waterway and then hiked somewhere. It does not have any details about the feelings of the explorers and their perceived level of danger.

So, here again, I put what is actually inscribed on the stone, with my commentary in parenthesis:


1. Eight Götalanders and 22 Northmen on (this?) acquisition journey from Vinland far to the west. (22+8=30, 30 people came on a trip west from Vinland).

2. We had a camp by two (shelters?) one day's journey north from this stone. (They had a camp one day north of where they left the KRS).

3. We were fishing one day. (self-explanatory)

4. After we came home, found 10 men red from blood and dead. (30 started the trip - 10 dead leaves 20. The only reason for absence we are given, *according to the stone* is fishing. Therefore, at face value, 20 went fishing while the other ten men were at camp and subsequently died.

5. Ave Maria save from evil. (Hail Mary save us from evil)

6. There are 10 men by the inland sea to look after our ships fourteen days journey from this peninsula (or island). Year 1362 (There are 10 men watching our stuff 14 days away from here).

Reply
Gunn
5/20/2014 03:05:00 pm

William, why did the Native Americans in this region even bother building their amazing birch-bark canoes? To make getting around easier.

The Norse were known for navigating waterways. Waterways aren't just convenient for migrating birds to follow, and to keep track of where they are. So, I have to patiently convince you that the KRS party traveled by water rather than by foot? Forget it, it's common sense.

I'm completely aware of what the KRS message says, but one has to apply logic if/when speculating. Much of the KRS story has to do with waterways, from the ocean, and to Runestone Hill. Believe what you want.

For some reason, Jason had/has a hard time seeing obvious waterways, too. It's as though some people want to deny the existence of a waterway to within a few miles of Runestone Park, just as some people stubbornly refuse to see a connection between the converging oceanic waterways far inland near the Whetstone River, SD area, and the many medieval Scandinavian evidences there. I've laid this out before, people can either accept it or not, believe it, or not.

It's all about waterways, man, waterways. Don't block the waterways. Don't wear out yer shoes for nothin'.

Reply
william
5/20/2014 04:14:15 pm

Gunn,

That is a viewpoint I can understand and relate to. I love the fact that you stand by your hunch. That leads to higher understanding eventually be it in your favor or not. Your tone in that response shoul be a model for fringe vs. academia.

Gunn Sinclair link
5/21/2014 04:01:26 am

Actually, my tone was a bit harsh. Sometimes I tend to be a bit forthright. Anyway, since you gave me such a surprising response, I decided to re-publish my "KRS" website, which I had hijacked a few weeks ago for a wind turbine invention site. Just click on the arrow, above. (If you're interested in the turbine, stick to the root without the /krs added.)

If you haven't seen them before, take a look at my map showing how no less than 3 separate river routes converge in one small geographical area, a tiny dot on vast Earth. How unusual.

Now, Wm, just to think that at this highly unusual spot, we find what really does appear to be multiple medieval Scandinavian evidences. Well, this is just highly unusual. You know, this is quite a coincidence...even without considering the KRS--which puts a stamp on this envelope I'm sending to the Blogosperian History Department.

Gunn
5/21/2014 04:18:49 am

I missed the emphasis, above. I should have said, "...no less than 3 separate river routes ORIGINATING FROM THE OCEAN converge...."

From Hudson Bay, the Gulf of Mexico, and from the St. Lawrence Seaway. All dwindle down and converge in the extreme far SE corner of SD, exactly where a multiplicity of evidences have already been found. It's like a "duh" thing, if I may be a bit purposefully arrogant.

Reply
.
5/24/2014 05:54:40 pm

in New England in the 1600s people went out into the ocean
and came back with fish. often the cod were taken to a location,
salted down and dried. the cod is then shipped to Europe. a
very similar expedition of 30 people who are fishing aggressively
could decide to go up or down a mighty river in order to get up
a supply of fish, and there may have been fur trapping. the size
of the expedition implies a division of labor. it could be all true...

Reply
Gunn link
5/25/2014 07:38:19 am

., I'm afraid your speculation may be a bit off. Although I agree that the 20 men were fishing a day's travel north of Runestone Hill, I believe their reason for doing so was a different reason than you seem to be hypothesizing. I don't think trapping had anything to do with it, especially in the more summer-like months.

There could have been a division of labor, as you suggest, like ten men fishing and ten men staying behind at the ill-fated camp to process the fish. The unlucky ones, in the case of the KRS party, were those who stayed at the camp.

I might mention that the mistake made by this group of men was that they chose to make an extended camp. At around the later time of the Lewis & Clark expedition, prudence dictated setting up camp late and breaking camp early. So, in fishing...in making a fishing camp, the men became too casual, too noticeable, especially as they went further north towards more open water, and more native inhabitants concerned with their safety and territory.

I do believe the men were involved with trying to catch a supply of fish, to possibly have enough food for their intended two-week or so trip back up to the ship, near Duluth, I believe. The men would have been wiser to hunt and fish along their way back, in 20/20 hindsight.

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    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
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      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
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      • Blunders in the Sky
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      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
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      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
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    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
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      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
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    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
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        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
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          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
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        • Hermetica >
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          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
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        • Hesiod's Theogony
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        • Sanchuniathon
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        • Aelian's Various Histories
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        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
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      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
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        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
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        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
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      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
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          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
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          • Termier on Atlantis
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          • Rebuttal to Termier
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          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
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          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
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          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
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        • Caucasians in Panama
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        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
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      • Religious Conspiracies >
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        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
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        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
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          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
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        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
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        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
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        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
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        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
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        • Mexican Mythology
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        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
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        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
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        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
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        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
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      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
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        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
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      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
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      • Vampires
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      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
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