Yesterday I mentioned white supremacists and their efforts to recast fringe history claims about prehistoric Old World contact with America as evidence of a global Caucasian master race. Today I’d like to look at one specific aspect of that: the embrace by white supremacists of the Solutrean Hypothesis for the peopling of the Americas, which suggests that Europeans from Spain traveled to America at least 14,000 years ago and gave rise to the Clovis culture. To do so, we’ll need to explore the porous boundary between fact and fiction and the way “entertainment” is used as a vehicle for delivering political and historical claims while avoiding mainstream scrutiny. The Solutrean Hypothesis emerged in the 1930s when archaeologist Frank Hibben noted that the style of stone points used by the newly-discovered Clovis culture, then the oldest known in the Americas, bore what seemed to him to be a striking similarity to stone points made by the Solutreans, a Stone Age people occupying Spain and France around 25,000 years ago. He suggested that the Solutreans had crossed the Atlantic and peopled the Americas, thus explaining why the Solutreans were replaced in Europe by the Magdaleneans, whose tools were less sophisticated.
The hypothesis did not gain traction for several reasons still true today: Solutrean points were different in shape from Clovis points (diamond-shaped and non-fluted vs. concave bottoms and fluting), the Solutreans were not known to have boats capable of an ocean crossing, and thousands of years separated the end of the Solutrean and the start of Clovis. In 1999, the Smithsonian’s Dennis Stanford and his colleague Bruce Bradley resurrected Hibben’s Solutrean hypothesis and added that pre-Clovis sites like Monte Verde in Chile represented a transitional stage between the Solutrean and Clovis—at the tip of South America! Stanford and Bradley denied that Paleoindians had developed their own stone working tradition independent of outside influences, specifically citing the lack of Clovis-style stone-working in northeast Asia as proof. Independent invention was for these scholars unlikely. I wrote about this for Skeptic magazine several years ago, with more detail on the issues involved. White supremacists, however, seized upon Stanford and Bradley’s claim that “the earliest origin of people in North America may have been from south-western Europe” as evidence that the first Americans had been Europeans and therefore white. But a good chunk of the discussion recently has focused not on the facts but about a piece of fiction that takes the hypothesis to a racist extreme by combining it with nineteenth century lost race theories. One of the key texts for this is a novel by Kyle Bristow, now 27, who has come under scrutiny from the Southern Poverty Law Center for running a hate group and for sponsoring events like Catch an Illegal Immigrant Day and for calling gays “disgusting” and “degenerates” against whom America needed protection. He says he adopted his views after reading Ann Coulter’s Treason. His novel was called White Apocalypse (2010), and the self-published thriller laid out a stark and bleak vision of prehistory in which the noble and virtuous white Solutreans traveled to America, peopled the continent, and were killed off by savage hordes of red-skinned “Beringians,” the future Native Americans. The similarity between this narrative and that of the early Mormons and of nineteenth century “lost race” theorists, all of whom accused Native Americans of killing off the original white inhabitants of America, is not coincidental. In the novel, after a mass grave of these white heroes is uncovered, a conspiracy of Native Americans and liberals try to suppress the truth in order to advance minority rights. One of these liberals’ ancestors, Bristow wrote, “for 40,000 years were all white and he hated who he was so very much that he put an end to that tradition by becoming romantically involved with a nonwhite individual — as many white liberals are predisposed to doing these days.” The novel then depicts the heroic assassination of a minority activist in order to get the truth about the original white inhabitants of America released to the public. Bristow dedicated the book to “the real Native Americans,” white people. Like other fringe writers, Bristow denies being a racist. “I am by no means racist,” he told the Toledo Blade in 2011. However, while this is only a novel, it quickly became fodder for self-described “pro-white” groups. Just as the Da Vinci Code spawned debate over the truth of its claims, so too did activists attempt to promote an underlying truth to Bristow’s White Apocalypse narrative. The Southern Poverty Law Center declared the novel “hate fiction” and accused Bristow of modeling the assassinated activist on an SPLC official. (Bristow denies the charge.) But the white nationalist radio host James Edwards declared that the book was “glowing with white pride and sorely needed these days, for European Americans are subjected to nonstop insult, abuse, and bashing.” Edwards regularly features white supremacist guests on his Memphis-based radio program, called The Political Cesspool, which airs on the Liberty News Radio Network and affiliated Christian radio stations. He has accused the Jews of working to undermine white America because of a hatred of Christianity and believes liberals use claims of racism to suppress the power of the white racial majority. According to Anti-Racist Canada, Canadian white supremacist activist and radio host Paul Fromm also declared the novel an important piece of propaganda in the ongoing war to deprive Native Americans (First Nations) of their status as indigenous and reassign the Americas as a “white” homeland. He called the novel “a soaring inspirational dramatization of our people taking our continent back from the Third World invaders,” and he described as “cathartic” a scene in which a white person murdered Hispanics. According to Anti-Racist Canada, white supremacists Bill Roper of White Resistance and Kevin Alfred Storm of National Vanguard praised Bristow not just for his writing talent but also for the “scholarship” that went into his depiction of prehistoric white culture. “Right Perspective” online radio host Frank from Queens was quoted by Anti-Racist Canada as saying: “The reason that the incredibly savage Meso-Amerikan (sic) Maya pressed and elongated the skull of the royalty was because of the race memory of the Great White Gods who we now know to be our Great White Solutrean Ancestors!” He went on to declare America the “true” Atlantis and Eden, an all-white paradise until the “Beringians” came and despoiled the land. Remember: The “white” gods of Mesoamerica are a key element of Graham Hancock’s lost civilization, Ignatius Donnelly’s Atlantis, David Childress’s prehistoric race war, and many other fringe theories. While Hancock and Childress aren’t racists themselves, their arguments have become evidence for racist claims, as, unfortunately, has the faulty Solutrean hypothesis. The Toledo Blade asked Dennis Stanford for comment. He told the Blade that there were in fact several east coast sites featuring evidence of prehistoric European visitors and that such visitors likely intermarried with Native people rather than were killed by them. He did, however, reject the white supremacist claim that America’s original white inhabitants had been exterminated by Native Americans. In his view, thanks to intermarriage, they live on in the genomes of Native peoples, something recent genetic work fails to confirm.
185 Comments
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 06:11:46 am
Jason …
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1/31/2014 06:44:16 am
You are seriously trying to tell me that it is unimportant that extremist groups have extremist claims about history? I cover fringe history claims, not cultural diffusion. White supremacists, like Afrocentrists, are making fringe history claims. I didn't see you complain when I did a multipart series on Afrocentric theories in 2012 and Muslim fringe history claims in 2013. You only seem to complain when the subject involves white fringe history claims.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 07:19:16 am
Extremists and fringe movements will grab hold of anything and everything they can find in order to justify their ideological claims and further their goals … 1/31/2014 07:37:50 am
You seem to be missing the point of my blog, which is to explore the way people use and abuse history. The Comte de Buffon famously wrote that Native Americans could not have been responsible for the high civilizations of the Americas because they were physical weak, mentally slow, and had unusually small penises. By your logic, we should avoid discussing Buffon's degeneracy theory in terms of its philosophical and imperial context (as justification for European hegemony) and instead restrict ourselves solely to measuring Native penises to prove the correctness of the facts. How people use ideas is often more important than the ideas themselves, and contemporary ideas should not be exempt from the scrutiny afforded historical ideas.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 07:45:14 am
I certainly agree that arguing STRENUOUSLY against racial-ist nonsense when it is brought forward AS such is entirely appropriate … But you seem t find racial-ist boogeymen hiding in EVERY corner of EVERY alternative history possibility … 1/31/2014 08:08:27 am
This post isn't in reaction to anything you said. It builds on yesterday's discussion of how white supremacists twist history. I don't think you can well deny that the people quoted in today's piece are white supremacists or that they are using pseudo-historical arguments to support those beliefs.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 03:19:31 pm
Looking for -- and finding -- a foul racial-ist agenda EVERYWHERE simply SHUTS DOWN discussion ..
Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:53:03 am
Jason, as a result of the recently published genetic study of the 24,000 year old Lake Baikal, Siberia child, Native Americans are now enabled to answer the white supremacists: "Our ancestors mixed with your ancestors before our ancestors migrated to the Americas. How you been?"
Joe Smith
5/20/2017 12:34:58 pm
Here you go you liberal NOB!
Historian
5/20/2017 02:13:32 pm
@Joe Smith. The Solutrean hypothesis has been around for awhile now. There is evidence in support of it. Of the two bipoints found in the Delmarva that were found to be made of French flint, at least the one can be considered found in circumstances that some would find compelling. The other cannot because it was found beneath the chimney of an 18th century foundation. But I could go on offering evidence in support of the hypothesis.
Historian
5/20/2017 02:34:51 pm
These fringe extremist groups can think their embrace of the Solutrean hypotheses supports their fringe history, but it's a moot and baseless claim at this point. White pigmentation did not develop in European peoples until some 12,000 years after the Solutrean industry(it was a technology, not a people in any event) existed. Therefore, the European peoples utilizing Solutrean technology were not white.
Francis Fromal
2/3/2020 03:22:06 pm
You continue the democratic original kkks goals to make everything racially oriented, to hold blacks and other ethnicities in bondage through anger and self pity. Continuing a everythings rascist narrative shows everyone your the rascist. And american indians slaughtered theyre own for land and power as every culture has. Beating a dead mule. I believe the biface and clovis of north america without doubt are not of native american make.
The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:45:25 am
Looks like someone is obsessed with denying the racist use of claims he upholds. Because HE'S not racist, then supposedly anything he believes in couldn't be used for racist purposes, even though that's clearly not the case.
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The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:46:37 am
(Sorry for the double-post. It told me there was an error submitting the comment, and it didn't show up. Then it did. Twice.)
Jim
1/31/2014 08:54:38 am
I got the same error, but I did not try to resubmit my comment and only refreshed the page, after which my comment was visible. I see other double posted comments as well, and Tara mentioned receiving this error on a previous post... looks like there may be an issue if the site gets too much simultaneous action?
The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:45:37 am
Looks like someone is obsessed with denying the racist use of claims he upholds. Because HE'S not racist, then supposedly anything he believes in couldn't be used for racist purposes, even though that's clearly not the case.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 10:20:19 am
(1) I simply find it passing STRANGE how FREQUENTLY these discussions are derailed by invocations of "racial-ism" …
Jason is wrong about "Racism"
1/31/2014 10:05:05 pm
Jason is wrong with the "Racist" argument here
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Only Me
2/1/2014 07:45:21 am
Q: What's black and white and read all over?
Gunn Sinclair
2/1/2014 03:57:21 am
From my own point of view as someone who actually does have a "touch" of untreated OCD, Jason does appear to be at least a bit afflicted with this psychological input. Afflicted isn't always a good word to use, though, as some good can come of this slight interruption in ordinary laziness...it can prompt one to dig further and further into a subject: In this case, RACISM.
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2/1/2014 04:01:24 am
So some people make wildly racist claims in order to promote white supremacy, and you're blaming me for reporting it? Would you prefer I just pretend that it doesn't exist so no one's feelings get hurt?
Will
2/1/2014 05:04:29 am
I don't understand why everything always has to be a conspiracy or ulterior motive to everything. When someone writes something like:
Gunn
2/1/2014 06:27:37 am
Will, no. It was more like the next step to the next claim of fringe racism, which is, yes, a topic of interest to the blog host. My point. The interest seems great and focused. 2/1/2014 12:25:10 pm
Contrary to your view, its all very interesting how these fringe movements operate, each having their own story.
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Christopher Harper
2/13/2017 01:56:58 pm
And you call yourself a man of God? Why are people so OBSESSED with Obama? Racism is REAL. And since I am in the "future" (it's 2017) if you're honest you'd agree after Trump became POTUS. Immediately after his election hate crimes rose. So this young man is correct in speaking on these issues. Perhaps if this great nation was as honest as he is we would be past these problems. God bless him and you as well.
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Lev P
1/31/2014 06:26:21 am
This is quite disturbing.
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Jim
1/31/2014 08:45:34 am
If you watch South Park, then you would know that the Mormons are the _only_ ones to have gotten it right...
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Walt
1/31/2014 06:35:09 am
Shoot, I read the title wrong... kept waiting for you to tie white supremacists to "Soultrain".
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Will
1/31/2014 08:55:41 am
I thought of the same groaner as I was reading the title!
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Heidi
1/31/2014 06:40:40 am
To the so called Reverend - why are you approaching a private citizen who just so happens to have a background in the classics and archaeology who has made his reputation on debunking alternative history claims and imploring him to talk about other issues when his website is explicitly devoted to other ends? If you want to explore cultural diffusion find a yahoo group and go back to college and get your own degree in the classics or in archaeology so you can bring pressure to bear with the ideas and subjects you are passionate about. You sound like a victim and I would not expect Jason to dignify your question with a response. To be honest, there are some hateful closed minded people who sometimes post on Jasons discussions and I am not defending their bigotry but you are wearing your heart on your sleeve and you might as well have a sign that reads "Kick Me" on your back. Look at the obvious before you ask for sympathy.
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1/31/2014 06:45:54 am
While I appreciate the passion you've brought to the discussion, Heidi, as per my comments policy of 1/24/14, I ask that we please refrain from personal attacks.
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Heidi
1/31/2014 07:04:56 am
Sorry Jason. I will behave. Sorry Reverend if I offended you. I just wanted to try and move you out of harms way. Sometimes the discussions get heated.
Chris
1/31/2014 08:30:16 am
Heidi,
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Walt
1/31/2014 08:48:20 am
To say it another way, pseudo-scientists of every type assume the consensus of the experts is incorrect and state their own beliefs based upon that assumption. Jason then dismisses their beliefs because they aren't supported by the consensus of the experts. I did catch that as well Chris, I think at the time, I was just trying to move the discussion out of hot water territory and to be as polite as possible while pointing out that his attempt to create discussion was inappropriate. Either way, I came across as being on the offensive which was not my intent.
Will
1/31/2014 09:30:45 am
There seems to be two comment "camps" on Jason's blog lately.
Reply
1/31/2014 10:06:40 am
"I think that for everyone's sanity (and more productive discussion) both camps should just agree to disagree and focus on the content at hand."
The Other J.
1/31/2014 10:35:34 am
This reminds me of Brak Counterbrak
Will
1/31/2014 10:39:38 am
Tara, 1/31/2014 11:04:58 am
I am not denying these individuals their right to transmute weird/alternative thinking into "common knowledge".I place confidence in free will & self determination,however I do have a major problem with individuals like Scott Wolter & Co,who engage in quack/pseudo science & outright deception,while pretending to do "science".You probably noticed but I don't spend much time on crackpots like Giorgio Tsoukalos,David Hatcher Childress & the like,because they happen to be crackpots.Wolter is a different breed (no pun intended) because he uses his professional credentials to promote "researches & theories" that discredit & violate the very notion of scientific methodology & academic protocols. 1/31/2014 11:09:18 am
Good observations Will. Your depiction of two camps is largely on target. Regarding your assertion that fringe theories are never explored in a rigorous manner, I'd offer that at least sometimes portions of such theorizing can be looked at in an evidence-based manner that would qualify as academic analysis. For example, my recent Examiner piece looks at the symbolism theory presented in the America Unearthed episode, Secret Blueprint for America, and in my opinion, reaches a prima facie conclusion based on an a fortiori argument, that indeed, it's quite plausible that symbols were incorporated into the designs and vision for the "Federal City." The piece also unpacks two camps in examining the ongoing debate on Jason's blog. Check it out, if you hadn't—the link is on my name. "Semiotics and symbolism at the founding of Washington DC and USA."
Tara Jordan
1/31/2014 11:51:57 am
Byron 1/31/2014 01:41:02 pm
I've read Fulcanelli and several other books that build on Fulcanelli's take on the Cross of Hendaye. It's fascinating stuff! Per your comment, I think its potentially overreaching to proclaim the design and layout of Washington D.C. strictly as "Masonic architecture," although its historically clear, as I point out in the Examiner piece linked on my name, the craft had a very critical role in the whole affair. But you're right it doesn't seem to be too conspiratorial, although it sure has inspired a lot of authors' imaginations! 1/31/2014 03:13:43 pm
Byron 2/1/2014 02:36:48 am
Byron DeLear said (to Will), "Regarding your assertion that fringe theories are never explored in a rigorous manner, I'd offer that at least sometimes portions of such theorizing can be looked at in an evidence-based manner that would qualify as academic analysis."
Will
2/1/2014 03:11:08 am
Just to clarify, I did not say that fringe history topics were "never" explored in an evidentiary manner, its just that I personally am not familiar with sites/blogs that regularly examine content in that way.
Gunn
2/1/2014 03:42:02 am
Will
2/1/2014 03:57:08 am
Gunn,
Gunn
2/1/2014 07:07:59 am
Okay. I just thought it was a bit unfair for you to say that basically everything Wolter says is a lie, in your analysis. Of course I would defend him in this, as you correctly pointed out, because he helped in these modern times to re-establish claims of legitimacy for "said stone." 1/31/2014 08:43:07 am
I wonder what Sheriff Joe Arpaio thinks about The Solutrean Hypothesis?
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The Other J.
1/31/2014 09:17:51 am
Two things with the Solutrean-first claim that are a little odd:
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Gary
1/31/2014 12:49:47 pm
Not only were they likely not white, recent studies say that those Europeans were mostly replaced by people from Southwest Asia who brought agriculture to Europe. They are the ancestors of most Europeans, not the earlier inhabitants.
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The Other J.
1/31/2014 01:32:20 pm
Well there you go.
Titus pullo
1/31/2014 10:22:42 am
First any Europeans in southern Spain 16000 years ago were hardly white...most likely olive skin so this idea of the white aryan über an is just such garbage. That said we need to remove these ethnowack jobs from serious discussion on the solutrean theory. Also the southern poverty law center us a far left anti liberty natural right org which attacks freedom of association, believes in enforced redistribution of wealth and group rights. Ant good they did fighting Jim Crow laws if any has been replaced by Marxist race baiting. I wonder how they feel about the us invasion of Iraq? Or the occupation of garza?
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Titus
1/31/2014 10:26:06 am
Sorry typing too fast on my iPad mini. I meant to say the gaza occupation. Or for that matter racial quotas or the patriot act and it's attack on the 4th amendment. Sorry as a libertarian I have little respect for the hate mongers at the southern poverty law center.
Reply
1/31/2014 10:39:29 am
"First any Europeans in southern Spain 16000 years ago were hardly white."
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Titus
1/31/2014 02:31:32 pm
Tara, 1/31/2014 03:02:17 pm
"I think you were agreeing with my point that white wasn't white so to speak." 1/31/2014 12:19:58 pm
You forgot the most important thing to mention in your article: that White Apocalypse is available for purchase from Amazon.com and qualifies for free shipping!
Reply
1/31/2014 12:25:51 pm
That was fast, Kyle. (Yes, this is actually Kyle.) I don't generally allow commercial advertisements on my website, and you should expect that other readers will want to ask you more than a few questions about your book.
Reply
1/31/2014 01:34:35 pm
I’d love to answer questions from your readers, but I fear that I may be too busy to do so. I spend all my time these days investigating the ancient astronaut theory, evidence of Bigfoot’s existence, proof that the Yeti exists, and analyzing how pyramids were built on Mars to pay homage to the alien-deity that Kurt Russell allegedly killed in the documentary entitled “Stargate.” (I did try to shoot Bigfoot with a 6.5mm Grendel this past hunting season in Michigan, but a deer unfortunately got in the way.) 1/31/2014 10:44:15 pm
I'm so glad, Kyle, that you were able to spare the time from your busy schedule to Google your name, spam my blog with an ad for your book, and then drop in a "challenge" and questions you intend to be rhetorical points for your point of view.
Andrew Churchill
2/3/2014 03:59:47 am
What are your thoughts on the Spirit Cave Mummy Jason? I have to admit the Solutrean thesis is the one area of alternative theory that holds some interest for me as an interesting discussion point. 2/3/2014 04:18:42 am
The Spirit Cave mummy is fascinating because it is so old, but it's not right to conclude that "Caucasoid" characteristics, referring to skull shape, imply a Caucasian (European) individual. Asian populations had great diversity (as the continued existence of the Ainu shows), and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people who crossed over the Bering Strait over the millennia came from different Asian groups.
Andrew Churchill
2/3/2014 11:20:41 am
Yes that's quite true; thank you for your input Jason. I remember reading that some Native Americans might have descended from a potentially ancient European group that long ago had migrated into Asia and from there into North America. This would account for some elements of European DNA showing up in the tests taken on bones in North America.
So, I guess the debate now may be about DNA, rather than color, if the blue-eyed dark-skinned Spaniard has anything to do with it. But of course, we don't know if he was typical to that area, passing through, or what.
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Dave Lewis
1/31/2014 02:06:38 pm
Kyle Bristow said
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1/31/2014 02:55:36 pm
"If Caucasians did not migrate to North America prior to the Vikings circa 1000 A.D., then how did Dr. Joseph Lorenz of the Coriell Institute for Medical Research find modern European DNA in 5,000-year-old bodies that were found preserved in Florida’s oxygen-depleted Windover Bog"
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Walt
1/31/2014 03:43:44 pm
I really think you're stating as fact something which has not been determined yet. Real professionals are still debating the origin of the Clovis culture. Jason's article from skeptic magazine, in addition to containing a typo (finks s/b links) is also a bit biased. It even ends with a little kumbuya moment for the Native Americans, which made me roll my eyes just like AA and AU do. I'm part Cherokee, BTW, but it was clearly a biased article. Jason's analysis may be correct and it does agree with the current consensus (surprise, surprise), but the subject really is still being debated. At least check out the wikipedia page and its references for a more complete history than Jason provides. 2/1/2014 12:29:40 pm
Kyle, I am waiting for you to respond to Jason's points but apparently you won't. I suspect you won't not because you are "busy," but because your arguments cannot stand up to these counter-arguments. This must be difficult since you've spent so much time in something that just isn't true.
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The Mighty Quinn
1/31/2014 12:56:21 pm
Jason,
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1/31/2014 03:41:29 pm
I`d encourage you (& other readers,especially those supporting Jason`s work)to participate.We,the regular "sycophants" are a minority,we definitively need more contributions
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 03:46:30 pm
This week's NOVA episode delved into the bodies
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The Other J.
1/31/2014 05:07:52 pm
I'm not averse to discussing this -- I've seen some bog bodies up close -- but I am a little curious how the topic links to this discussion. I'm assuming the link is through the leaps needed to be made when we have lots of bodies and artifacts, like with the bog bodies, and suggesting that we can know much of anything about Solutreans beyond the fact that they made some artifacts goes way beyond what we can do even when we have the bodies. I'll give you that.
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The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:04:10 pm
(Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Irish bog sacrifices were made due to Roman incursion -- the Romans didn't make it there. Elsewhere in Europe, though, that seems to be suggested, as with Lindow Man.)
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 03:54:58 pm
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:10:44 pm
We have Solutrean artifacts in lieu of bones or DNA
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:26:25 pm
Race is now a dated if not almost totally inaccurate term.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 04:14:01 pm
The question of the cultural diffusion relationship -- if any, or not -- between the Solutrean and Clovis lithic traditions has NOTHING to do with White Racism" ...
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:37:41 pm
Rev. Phil Gotsch...
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J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:57:14 pm
What if the Neolithic Revolution traveled south from Beringia
jiiikoo
2/1/2014 12:19:27 am
I just watched the new episode of AA and I have to say that I wouldn't want to work at the Smithsonian institute as the person who has to answer the phone when people phone to ask about the Grand Canyon hoax.
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Tom
2/1/2014 01:38:06 am
Holocaust or Savage Native American Indian apocalypse?
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Normandie Kent
10/4/2017 02:20:14 pm
You must mean the Mass immigration of hordes of European invaders, and the subsequent Genocide of the Native Americans in their own ancient Homeland, the Two continents of the Americas!
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:07:48 am
To Kyle Bristow...
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J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:29:44 am
And furthermore...
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:47:53 am
The date Plato picks has vast areas being flooded + submerged. 2/1/2014 12:21:26 pm
And apparently you are Native American holocaust denier...
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H2 schedule
2/1/2014 04:44:51 am
Tune in next week to America Unearthed
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thomas o mills
2/1/2014 05:07:43 am
A possible explanation might be found in the Hopi Creation Story. Their belief is that we were all created equal, at the same time and at the same place. I believe this place was Egypt, just my thoughts, and then placed around the planet with different guardians who taught us different languages, traits, beliefs, religions, etc, in the beginning. This might explain how the white man developed in Europe, the black man in Africa, the yellow man in Asia, and the red man in the American’s.
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Only Me
2/1/2014 06:55:54 am
"The real question should be what caused all four races to start over three times in our ancient past."
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thomas o mills
2/1/2014 08:19:47 am
No, I'm saying that all four races were taught different creation stories in the beginning, just like you said. If the white man for instance had three or four different guardians then he might have three or four stories.
Only Me
2/1/2014 08:37:27 am
That is your belief.
thomas o mills
2/1/2014 08:57:08 am
I started my comment by saying it might be a possible explanation. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but thought you might be interested in a different point of view. My mistake.
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 11:26:18 am
Anthropology has lumpers and splitters. Homo Erectus may
Only Me
2/1/2014 12:04:33 pm
Don't misunderstand me, Thomas. I'm willing to listen to different points of view, but you have to understand that there are inconsistencies with the Hopi Creation Story that are problematic.
Dave Lewis
2/1/2014 06:59:03 am
It seems to me that we have at least one person here commenting "Jason is obsessed with racism" very frequently. Perhaps it is time to start removing those comments.
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Gunn
2/1/2014 07:32:19 am
I know of at least two, maybe more, although the frequency is probably far less than the blog host harping on racism. That would be a lot of work for Jason to do, and I think he did a good job of defending himself, anyway. He probably considers himself to be fair game as long as people don't over-do it. It's all quite peculiar...great for you to take the time to point it out.
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Only Me
2/1/2014 08:05:42 am
The hypothesis is that, when enough false accusations persist, there may be a grain of truth in them. There may be a basis in reality to the repetitious agenda-driven allegations of race-baiting, obsession, hate-blogging, and more. Since the beginning, there has been no choice but to focus on the semantics of his word choice, on finding all the ways to use a search function to highlight the number of uses of certain key words, on the factual deconstruction of Scott Wolter's work, on his reviews of America Unearthed, and more. Clearly, this is skepticism that challenges the foundation of fringe/alternate history claims.
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Gunn
2/1/2014 08:11:28 am
Yes, yes, skepticism that is challenging the foundation of weird claims...weirdness in the eye of the beholder.
Only Me
2/1/2014 08:31:58 am
My statement was an attempted humorous riff based on another's proposed hypothesis.
Gunn
2/1/2014 08:35:56 am
Somehow, I figured you'd only get a few directions, not considering them all...especially the harm that could come to a fringe speculator from an over-zealous skeptic.
Only Me
2/1/2014 08:46:23 am
But I have considered them all. That is the difference between a skeptic and a fringe speculator. If the skeptic is proven wrong, cool beans. History is rewritten to include the new knowledge gained. This doesn't always happen without turmoil, but proven fact is eventually accepted.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/1/2014 09:10:02 am
Ummmm …
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J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 11:45:03 am
The Human Genome Project is vindicating the idea that 2/1/2014 12:32:55 pm
"The Human Genome Project is vindicating the idea that
Gary
2/1/2014 12:53:20 pm
Tara, you are coming to a pretty strong conclusion that does not seem to be a consensus. This is from an article on Wikipedia: 2/1/2014 01:38:38 pm
Gary.
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 02:13:51 pm
Tara, the Human Genome Project & Spencer Wells have 2/1/2014 02:24:47 pm
JA
Walt
2/1/2014 03:01:11 pm
I don't think he should remove comments that critique his writing style. That's what comments are for.
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J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 01:47:02 pm
Tara, prior to the arrival of Cromagnon/EMHs... I am open to
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J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 01:54:43 pm
Is it some 15 million to 20 million years ago that we start
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/3/2014 04:22:35 pm
Where DID our original "pond slime" ancestors hang out … ??? Africa … ??? Who knows … ??? 2/1/2014 02:16:22 pm
I am not saying anything (except that the "Out of Africa" scheme is not holding water any longer),I dont have the expertise (paleontology is not my field),I`m merely relaying articles & following very closely the ongoing controversy.
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Shane Sullivan
2/1/2014 05:48:08 pm
Wait, am I missing something? As I understand it, Out-of-Africa theory refers specifically to the origin and subsequent diffusion of anatomically modern Homo Sapiens, not anthropoids in general; how is that model invalidated by the discovery of species that predate humans by tens of millions of years?
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 03:54:48 pm
To this kind quote
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J.A. Dickey
2/2/2014 12:36:03 pm
i await the NEW episode of AU this Friday.
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Seeker
2/1/2014 08:15:30 pm
Jason, I appreciate your viewpoint and appreciate your discussions of how racism may often exist in fringe history theories. I don't feel you're "obsessed" by this topic--you follow where the stories lead.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/3/2014 03:42:22 pm
I too *scratch* my head wondering why these suggested alternative possibilities are so THREATENING that they become quickly shouted down with cries (or at least, implications) of "racial-ism" … I dunno …
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/5/2014 10:25:50 am
Hello … ???
Fr. Bill Bosh
2/6/2014 06:22:35 am
Hi there...!!!
Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:09:10 am
Jason, you need to revisit your information regarding Native Americans. The study of the Lake Baikal child, dated at 24,000 years ago, changes everything by demonstrating that all Native Americans share a Western Eurasian ancestry. But, the origin is from. The west, from Asia, not East across the Atlantic via Solutreans. You mention this European genome has not been demonstrated. It has now! Western Eurasians went east across the ice front and reached Asia where they mixed with people who then became the founding population of the Americas:
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Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:24:22 am
I want to add that many have felt intermixing with Europeans since the colonization period is responsible for European markers in a Native Americans. The Lake Baikal discovery means these markers came with Native Americans into the Americas. Some are saying this effectively negates the Solutrean Hypothesis, but it really does not, as certainly the Solutreans could have arrived as well. Stanford, et al are concentrating on the Delmarva Peninsula, where at least 2 dates in excess of 20,000 years have now been obtained. One date is over 26,000 years. There have now been 2 bipointed blades made of French flint found. Their case grows stronger, not weaker. But, importantly, the Eurasian genetics comes from Western Eurasia probably in the neighborhood of 30,000 years ago. So, exciting to realize that Native Americans may be in part descendent from Paleolithic hunters from Western Eurasia, as far as Germany in fact. At any rate, thought this info should be out there for your readers.
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A.D.
2/6/2014 03:11:25 pm
Sorry my man but the Solutrean lie never had a leg to stand on.The only ones who desperately hang on this bs are racist.Nobody takes it seriously.
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:33:47 pm
It is also noteworthy that Mal'ta carried Y DNA R1* and mtDNA U* which have gone extinct.None of these haplogroups are found in any pre-columbian burials.
A.D.
2/13/2014 08:20:10 am
I've been following this since the paper came out in November of last year.I've heard it all before and what we have is another flawed model.As Eastern View has brought up some good points.I agree with many of his points.The David Reich lab has a different interpretation as his team was the one that found this ancient connection in his 2012 paper.The ancient remains only strengthen
A.D.
2/13/2014 08:25:16 am
"It took 20 years for some in the scientific community to accept the Monte Verde date. It took 15 years for the Amerindian component in West Eurasians to even be mentioned.
A.D.
2/13/2014 08:39:34 am
I've actually read the whole paper and supplement material and been following this for months.Mal'ta is an admixed individual not the other around. At K9 the admixture run shows the Mal'ta sample to have 5 ancestral components and appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), Amerindian (26%), and a minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).
A.D.
2/13/2014 08:48:56 am
I meant my first post to be longer so here goes
Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 11:50:53 am
A.D., a friend explained it this way:
Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 12:05:14 pm
This is what saddens me. What has to be has to be, but I would not be upset if a 6,000 year old Irish bog man that was my ancestor was studied.
A.D.
2/13/2014 04:55:12 pm
Damn guy I've read everything about that crap.You're just repeating what I've read already and aren't adding anything that supports what you still claim.Are you confused and believe that there was a "caucasoid" population that came here "first" but this time came from Siberia? A "Lost white tribe of Siberia"?
A.D.
2/13/2014 05:09:59 pm
"There is further support for Willerslev's conclusions from the genome sequence of 17,000 year old DNA from the south-central Siberian Afontova Gora-2 site. The genome demonstrates a similar signature to Mal’ta Boy and has close affinities to modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but no affinities to present-day East Asians. There is a demonstrable genetic continuity in south-central Siberia throughout the Late Glacial Maxim and these people would have been well-placed to take advantage of any opportunities to cross the Bering land bridge if they had a mind to."
A.D.
2/13/2014 05:16:31 pm
Chris Kortright - The Question of Kennewick
Normandie Kent
10/4/2017 04:22:00 pm
Except those Solutreans or West Eurasians would not be the ancestors of the Modern European or Americans. But would be a small subset of the West Eurasian gene pool. along with a small subset of Ancient Eastern Eurasian that would be the sole ancestors of the Native American race. Modern European would be descendants of the people who never left. Native Americans last common ancestors with Asia and Europe would be around 35-40 thousand years ago. The European Solutreans that stayed put in Europe were Landlubbers and mammoth hunters who never left the continent until 500 years ago. there is also a big possibility that the Solutreans that stayed in Europe were genocided by the magdalenians 17,000 years ago, and those would be partial ancestors to modern Europeans, so the Native Americans would be the closest genetically living descendants of the Solutreans in the world. who were again genocided by the descendants of the Magdalenians in the Americas once again by the incoming hordes of Magdalenian descendants 500 years ago. Why would Native Americans tell modern Europeans that they mixed with their ancestors, when they didn't .
A.D.
2/6/2014 02:53:59 pm
Mal'ta-Buret culture has nothing to do with Native American precursor techno-complexes.Mal'ta and Afontova Gora are isolated cases.And its contradicting from the archaeological record that shows mal'ta to be late gravettian with central asian characteristics.So it can't be "basal" to any population.Let anything to do with Native American origins at all.
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Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:47:23 am
A.D. Regarding Solutrean never having a leg to stand on, do you feel the presentations at the PaleoAmerican Odyssey Conference weakened their case? Do you have a copy of the proceedings? The first French flint could be interpreted as something brought over by a colonist, highly improbable as that might be, but what of the second biface made of flint originating in France. Yes,of course Meltzer has been a critic from day one. But what of the new evidence and dates?
Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 01:33:54 am
By now you are probably aware of the genome sequencing of the Montana child found buried with Clovis artifacts.
Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 02:53:15 am
A.D., from the abstract of the just published genome study of the Montana Clovis child burial:
Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:05:54 am
No, for heaven's sake, I'm NOT looking for a "lost white Siberian"! You say you KNOW I am trying to do that. Buffalo Biscuits!! No, I am not. You are the one who is calling me a racist by insisting that I am looking for some way to get white people into the Americas at the same time or earlier then Native Americans. What is the matter with you?? None of your objections has appeared in the literature yet, has it? I can wait for the answer to shake itself out. Why do you insist on giving me motives that don't exist. You do not know me at all and I do not know you at all. Lay off judging me because all you are doing when you do that is display your bitterness and anger toward white people. How dare you make a racist out of me just because I might support a theory different then yours. I am not a geneticist and if your point was to point that fact out, you did. And I respect your point of view. OK? I have been reading, and at times joining the conversation, on websites discussing this. I am looking forward to seeing how these 2 findings(Mal'ta and Montana) affect knowledge of the peopling of the Americas. You have demonstrated it is far more complex then the headlines implied, so thanks for that. But, there is a political component that is not originating from me. That I know. I am not looking for lost white Siberians. You do not know me, so please stop pretending that you do. We will see how this resolves in time I'm sure.
Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:23:36 am
I think this will be my last, A.D. You've raised plenty of doubts in my mind. When I see the Mal'ta conclusions completely overturned, I will remember I heard it here first, even though I'll never know who educated me. You have definitely raised enough doubts and I am not qualified to debate your objections. That does not mean I have to say "uncle" to you because I do not know what the answer will be. I really need to see your points proven somewhere other then this blog comment section. You've certainly convinced me it can be questioned, but to what degree you are correct, and to what degree the conclusions of the Mal'ta study are correct(and therefore making you wrong), I can't say. But do you know your stuff? Sure seems like it to me. I left an explanation a friend provided. He is completely fluent in the subject and in genetics, so what can I say, best I could do. I think I would profit more if you and he debated the point. That is what we all need if these Mal'ta findings are as screwed up as you suggest. So, relax, I just want the truth of prehistory. I don't have any racist or supremacist axes to grind at all.
Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:42:16 am
Guess I'm still trying to clarify. I am not in a position to judge your points, A.D. against those points raised in the Mal'ta study and draw a conclusion based on my own vast knowledge. There is no vast knowledge. So I can only hope the truth becomes clarified as time goes by. I expect if you are correct that that will eventually be clearly apparent. No? Until then, I don't see a racist agenda behind the "peopling of the Americas" debate. At least not among good people.
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/14/2014 12:44:37 am
Anyway, again … The necessary attention in these questions ought to be on the POPULATION of a given time and particular place -- NOT on one to even two INDIVIDUALS who appear to be (and perhaps ARE) *different* …
Historian
9/20/2014 04:03:14 am
OK, A.D., here is the latest DNA study which proves conclusively that you were absolutely wrong. There is indeed a genetic relationship between Europeans and Native Americans. Undeniable, and you were/are flat out wrong in your claims:
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:03:23 pm
"Refuting the technological cornerstone of the Ice-Age Atlantic crossing hypothesis" Eren et al 2013
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A.D.
2/6/2014 03:26:07 pm
An alternative view of the peopling of South America:
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:27:46 pm
MORPHOMETRIC AND mtDNA ANALYSES
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:29:10 pm
"It is noteworthy that, to our knowledge,
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:30:12 pm
Ancient DNA Analysis of Mid-Holocene Individuals from the Northwest Coast of North America Reveals Different Evolutionary Paths for Mitogenomes Cui et al 2013
Historian
9/20/2014 04:07:42 am
Here's that link again, showing how wrong you were!
Historian
9/20/2014 04:14:17 am
Read and weep, A.D. Native Americans and Western Europeans share ancestry. You can find the full letter in Nature.
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:07:09 pm
They did the same thing back in 2012 when standfords book came out.He couldn't get his crap peer reviewed so they wrote a book instead .Yet that didn't stop the media from blasting it all over with bullshit headlines saying "first americans were europeans".lol what a load of shit.The media is racist and is anti-indian.This I learned real quick and this racism has been around for years!
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Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:38:09 am
Forgive me, but I've been trying to find the most succinct way possible, and I believe it would go like this.
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2/6/2014 10:41:23 am
I was actually just reading the new DNA study about this from last month's Nature. It's fascinating new research and goes a long way to explaining "anomalies" so beloved of fringe writers.
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A'lul'lkoy
12/16/2015 08:13:52 pm
Just want to point out that, it's not that Native Americans are part Europeans, but that Europeans are part Ancient Nort Eurasian. European is a modern construct , it consist of 3 components Ancient North Eurasian, Middle Eastern, North African ( back migration) so there is zero chance that native americans are part European, they have none of the other admixure that makes what you would call a European. I think you are confusing Ancient N. Eurasian with European. Eurasian and European ARE NOT the same. Your saying that West Eurasians from as far Western Germany migrated to East Asia and Siberia , 30,000 years ago? Lol! Wrong! I think you got the trip itinerary backwards. Did you get that idea from Der Speigel? Cuz, they came to the same conclusions. That's like me saying that Europeans are part Native American because they had the same the ancestor 30,000 years ago. Ancient north Eurasians were living in East Asia in Siberia, 30,000 yrs. ago their descendants went on to populate the empty continent, the Americas. The other decendants of the ANE went thru Asia down to the Middle East around 30,000 yrs. ago reaching the Alps 20,000 , then 3,000 years ago in the form of proto-Italic-Cetic cultures. And then 2,500 bc Indo-European migration into Western Europe. I forgot to mention this is the Macro Haplgroup R1 picking up Mtdna U, J, T, H along the way. Native Americans were in the Americas for thousands of years, when The Asian ancestors of the Europeans intermarried different ethnic groups to become the European group of people we know today. It's wrong to go around stating that Native Americans are descendants of Europeans or that they are part European. It's simplistic at best, especially since Native American genetics are way older than Modern European ones.
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10/4/2017 10:09:25 pm
No, it just means that the Europeans were Asians, Africans and Middle Eastern the whole time, and only in the past 3,500 years morphed into Europeans. They are newcomers to Europe from Central Asia.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/6/2014 10:57:15 am
Yes …
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Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 11:37:44 am
White supremacists were keen to seize on the fact Kennewick Man displayed Caucasian traits, to suit their own interpretation of history. They can't do that anymore, thanks to the discovery at Lake Baikal. We should expect to see Caucasian traits in early skeletal remains from the Far West. In that particular case, it allows us to correct, not stifle, a particular discussion. There also is no doubt racism played a role in how European settlers in the Americas interpreted antiquties encountered. The work of anybody but the ancestors of the "savages" they encountered. It was inconceivable that these natives could have created civilizations or risen above the struggle for mete existence. That was an inherent racist opinion of Native Americans. Edmund Delabarre, he of Dighton Rock fame, a professor of psychology at Brown University came to the remarkable conclusion that all petroglyphs dated to post contact times. Why? Because he reasoned the natives needed the inspiration of seeing white men write on paper before they could conceive of writing on rock. And they so wrote on rocks in strict imitation of the white man as well. What a perfectly foolish, and inherently racist, conclusion. And he wrote those conclusions in the 1920's. So that attitude that Native Americans were incapable of monumental works, for instance, was most certainly an enabling factor in the development of some aspects of the earliest notions whites held toward Native Americans. It is most certainly a factor and thus a legitimate topic of discussion. I would not see pointing that component out, in discussing the evolution of alternative history thinking in the Americas, as "stifling" discussion, since it is a part of the history of thinking about these things. I honestly believe that anytime you can shed meaningful light on the context of historical developments or movements, then you are most certainly aiding in any discussion of the topic at hand.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/6/2014 12:33:42 pm
"White Supremacists" are ever keen to grab hold of ANYTHING they hope to use to bolster their claims and goals, including the Bible and Population Genetics … So what … ???
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:37:42 pm
Sorry but as a Native American I see this as just another attempt to put "whites" here first and displace and usurp us as the true originators of the western hemisphere.This has been the agenda for years.No proof of "caucasoids" ever being here.Only in the wet dreams of racist.
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 12:07:23 am
My point, Rev. Gotsch, is that racial bias on the part of early commentators on cultural remains found in the Americas, made it easier to misinterpret said cultural remains as evidence for something they were not. Dighton Rock was being misinterpreted as Phoenician as early as the 1600's, in part because of assumptions(Native Americans could not conceive of writing in ANY form). Kennewick Man is simply a most recent example of trying to use certain facts, like Caucasian traits, to suit a certain narrative. In that instance, the racism is more overt, whereas among 18th and 19th century American antiquarians, it was on a much more unconscious level. Today's racists usually make no effort to hide their hatred of certain races. 19th century racist attitudes on the part of the antiquarians was more the unconscious belief that Native Americans were an "inferior" race. And misinterpretations of the many earthen monuments of the Ohio and Mississippian Valleys resulted from that bias. So again, my point was knowing the cultural CONTEXT in which antiquarians operated helps us understand WHY they were so keen interpret things incorrectly. Why they accepted hoaxes. Why they interpreted Native American petroglyphs as Old World scripts in some instances. Somebody wrote me recently that John Wesley Powell was part of a conspiracy to suppress the existence of Old World civilization remains in the Grand Canyon. This seems to be a combination of a person having no idea whatsoever what the cultural mileau of the 19th century was(Mormonism culminated the 19th century "Old World was here early" pop culture paradigm) and the fact that Powell was one of the first scientific archaeologists and quite appealed by Mormon inspired historical fantasies. So the person who wrote me simply bought into lock, stock, and barrel that Powell conspired to hide our true history. Without understanding historical context, Rev. Gotsch, the uneducated or undereducated of 21st century America lap this stuff up without full knowledge of context, why Powell felt as he did, etc. I'm not really talking about the hate inspired racism that infuses white supremacist historical revisionism today. I am pointing out that many of the so-called 19th century discoveries that proponents of alternative history today like to point to as evidence that was suppressed is no such thing. So please, do not tell me "so what?" where context is concerned. Context is important in understanding the development of interpretations of America's history and prehistory. If nothing else, it made it easier to accept patently fake artifacts as real. Even today, there were many people who could not see how patently fake the Burrows Cave artifacts were. I have dealt in ancient artifacts for more then 50 years, and a I can honestly say anybody with experience could see immediately that they were fake. Immediately! From mere photos! I knew they were fake while the debate played out for years. Inexperienced people, with no notion of patina, no notion of artistic style, people who WANTED these artifacts to be Old World, just lapped it all up. Ridiculous! And Wolter, a geologist, not an archaeologist, not somebody with decades of experience handling artifacts, was completely fooled and went right on the record with his inexperienced, completely un researched opinion. At first. Very telling the degree of rigor shown by Mr. Wolter.
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 01:49:00 am
It's like the dustup when E. O. Wilson published his magisterial book on "sociobiology" … Stephen Jay Gould strenuously objected to the book and to its ideas NOT because the "science" was *wrong* but because the ideas could easily be misused for ideological purposes …
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Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 04:36:13 am
If somebody believes a certain artifact found in the Americas is evidence for ancient Israelites being in America because that is what they WANT to believe, rather then what the evidence actually says, that fact, that bias, should be pointed out. That is not irrelevant and it certainly isn't prejudicing the discussion. I am not talking about misuse of "facts". I am talking about misinterpretations of evidence that, in part, has it's roots in a particular bias or assumption. Not misused to support what you chose to call "racialism"(?); rather, easily misinterpreted and contrary evidence ignored due to conscious or unconscious bias. Again, I am not talking about white supremacists misuse of "facts" to suit their own agenda. I am referring to 19th century scholars who were all too willing to make assumptions about America's past prior to the rise of scientific archaeology. That is not the same thing as "racialism", whatever that is.....
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 04:59:39 am
I object to a practice of tying an idea (or fact) or claim to the dark impulses of a vile ideology, whether "racism" or "racial-ism" (they're distinct, but not always separate … look them up) ...
An Over-Educated Grunt
2/7/2014 12:37:40 am
Phil, it's astounding how you're willing to point to Carl Hrafn's work in the 1830s as upsetting the academic applecart, and how we should hold this up as a triumph of new information over the entrenched mindset, but at the same time you insist that someone clinging to ideas espoused at the same time by Andy Jackson is just "grab[bing] hold of ANYTHING." Either the information is old, and well-established, or it's revolutionary. Which is it?
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Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 12:40:48 am
All I really want is some honesty in research. Many of the ideas that America Unearthed deals with have always interested me. I published the first article and photos of the Narragansett Stone, for instance. I wanted it's existence known. I knew the Hooked X appeared on the Kensington Stone the day we first saw the Narragansett Stone, and that the character was used to cast doubt on the authenticity of the Kensington Stone. I knew it would enter the Precolumbian Exploration discussion, but of course had no idea a theory such as proposed by Wolter would eventually develop. My problem is in not seeing the rigor of research within the works of many who make claims for Precolumbian evidence in the New World. If I see that a person who would offer a reinterpretation of ancient American history is actually unable to distinguish a really bad 20th century fake(Burrows Cave) from something with true age, it concerns me because I must ask how seriously can I take this person's interpretation if he cannot distinguish new from old? Bit, I probably digress.....
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Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 01:52:09 am
The studies Scott Wolter did on the Kensington Rune Stone certainly were of a much higher order and took a LONG time and much effort …
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Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 04:56:30 am
I won't argue with that, sir.
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:29:55 am
For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:30:01 am
For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:30:08 am
For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:33:54 am
My apologies. Kept getting an error message that was apparently itself an error.
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Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 06:16:54 am
A.D. Wrote:
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A'lul'koy
12/16/2015 09:33:07 pm
That's the problem with the American public. You think it's your right to know about OUR ancestors! It is not your right. You know that the people who have lived in this hemisphere have a spiritual tie to their ancestors. The remains should not be touched by the hands of anyone not even of their descendants. Let alone a scientist . Any remains found in the ancestral homelands should be considered of the people that lived there, and should be left alone. They should never be touch by scientist, the need to know by you or anyone should not trump the wishes of the tribes, as they don't belong to you, those are another persons ancestors. You have no right to them. Also the scientists did not do genetic tests on Kenniwick Man. So this could they know the remains were not related to the NA's. so they lied. You think that was the way to get on the tribes good side? No, no the Indians have no trust in science. In the past or present. In the future it will be hard to get the natives to work with any scientist. Especially now that it turns out tha kenniwick man was NA all along. Just like they always said. Hopefully nagpra get changed to all remains. No matter how old.
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thomas o mills
2/13/2014 04:05:38 am
The Native American's I know, know where they came from and where we are going. The baby boy found in Montana only proves their story and he should be returned to his resting place.
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Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:53:18 am
I was a graduate student in History in 1969 when I first read The Book of the Hopi. I can honestly say it changed my life fundamentally. It changed completely how I look at our deep past. It made me realize we do not know the true history of mankind on this planet. I honestly believe the Hopi have retained better knowledge of our deep past then the West has. I was never able to see history the same again once exposed to the Book of the Hopi.
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Thomas O. Mills
2/14/2014 02:08:46 am
I agree with you Charlie. I have never heard a Hopi criticize anything in the book and I lived with them for four years in the early 70's operating the Hopi Cultural Center. Changed my life in many ways also.
Charlie Devine
2/15/2014 02:18:11 pm
Thanks, Thomas. Nice meeting you! Coincidently, I received a copy of The Fourth World of the Hopis by Harold Courlander this past Xmas. Haven't started it yet. Good to see most of the sacred objects were purchased and returned to them in the most recent Paris auction.
J.C.
10/13/2014 09:16:41 pm
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2014/02/13/genetic-study-kills-off-solutrean-hypothesis/
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3/23/2016 01:26:52 am
I like your blog. I enjoyed reading your blog. It was amazing. Thanks a lot.
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LEROY WASHINGTON
1/15/2019 03:58:04 am
ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH COME FROM PREHISTORIC GREECE, GOOGLE "GREACOPITHICUS", THE FIRST PEOPLE ON EARTH WERE EUROPEANS!
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Historian
2/3/2020 04:54:33 pm
@Francis Fromal, if Clovis points are "not of Native American make", than why has no Clovis point ever been found outside North or South America? At the very least, everyone, on both sides of the debate, agrees that Clovis points originated in North America. If they were developed by arrivals from across the Atlantic, who used Solutrean technology, then why have no other traits associated with people who utilized Solutrean technology turned up in the Americas?
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AuthorI am an author and researcher focusing on pop culture, science, and history. Bylines: New Republic, Esquire, Slate, etc. There's more about me in the About Jason tab. Newsletters
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