JASON COLAVITO
  • Home
  • Blog
  • Books
    • Legends of the Pyramids
    • The Mound Builder Myth
    • Jason and the Argonauts
    • Cult of Alien Gods >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Foundations of Atlantis
    • Knowing Fear >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Hideous Bit of Morbidity >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Cthulhu in World Mythology >
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
      • Necronomicon Fragments
      • Oral Histories
    • Fiction >
      • Short Stories
      • Free Fiction
    • JasonColavito.com Books >
      • Faking History
      • Unearthing the Truth
      • Critical Companion to Ancient Aliens
      • Studies in Ancient Astronautics (Series) >
        • Theosophy on Ancient Astronauts
        • Pyramidiots!
        • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • Fiction Anthologies >
        • Unseen Horror >
          • Contents
          • Excerpt
        • Moon Men! >
          • Contents
      • The Orphic Argonautica >
        • Contents
        • Excerpt
      • The Faust Book >
        • Contents
        • Excerpt
      • Classic Reprints
      • eBook Minis
    • Free eBooks >
      • Origin of the Space Gods
      • Ancient Atom Bombs
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Ancient America
      • Horror & Science
  • Articles
    • Skeptical Xenoarchaeologist Newsletter >
      • Volumes 1-10 Archive >
        • Volume 1 Archive
        • Volume 2 Archive
        • Volume 3 Archive
        • Volume 4 Archive
        • Volume 5 Archive
        • Volume 6 Archive
        • Volume 7 Archive
        • Volume 8 Archive
        • Volume 9 Archive
        • Volume 10 Archive
      • Volumes 11-20 Archive >
        • Volume 11 Archive
        • Volume 12 Archive
        • Volume 13 Archive
        • Volume 14 Archive
        • Volume 15 Archive
        • Volume 16 Archive
        • Volume 17 Archive
        • Volume 18 Archive
        • Volume 19 Archive
        • Volume 20 Archive
      • Volumes 21-30 Archive >
        • Volume 21 Archive
        • Volume 22 Archive
    • Television Reviews >
      • Ancient Aliens Reviews
      • In Search of Aliens Reviews
      • America Unearthed
      • Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
      • Search for the Lost Giants
      • Forbidden History Reviews
      • Expedition Unknown Reviews
      • Legends of the Lost
      • Unexplained + Unexplored
      • Rob Riggle: Global Investigator
    • Book Reviews
    • Galleries >
      • Bad Archaeology
      • Ancient Civilizations >
        • Ancient Egypt
        • Ancient Greece
        • Ancient Near East
        • Ancient Americas
      • Supernatural History
      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
  • About Jason
    • Biography
    • Jason in the Media
    • Contact Jason
    • About JasonColavito.com
    • Terms and Conditions
  • Search

White Nationalists and the Solutrean Hypothesis

1/31/2014

185 Comments

 
Yesterday I mentioned white supremacists and their efforts to recast fringe history claims about prehistoric Old World contact with America as evidence of a global Caucasian master race. Today I’d like to look at one specific aspect of that: the embrace by white supremacists of the Solutrean Hypothesis for the peopling of the Americas, which suggests that Europeans from Spain traveled to America at least 14,000 years ago and gave rise to the Clovis culture. To do so, we’ll need to explore the porous boundary between fact and fiction and the way “entertainment” is used as a vehicle for delivering political and historical claims while avoiding mainstream scrutiny.

The Solutrean Hypothesis emerged in the 1930s when archaeologist Frank Hibben noted that the style of stone points used by the newly-discovered Clovis culture, then the oldest known in the Americas, bore what seemed to him to be a striking similarity to stone points made by the Solutreans, a Stone Age people occupying Spain and France around 25,000 years ago. He suggested that the Solutreans had crossed the Atlantic and peopled the Americas, thus explaining why the Solutreans were replaced in Europe by the Magdaleneans, whose tools were less sophisticated.

The hypothesis did not gain traction for several reasons still true today: Solutrean points were different in shape from Clovis points (diamond-shaped and non-fluted vs. concave bottoms and fluting), the Solutreans were not known to have boats capable of an ocean crossing, and thousands of years separated the end of the Solutrean and the start of Clovis.

In 1999, the Smithsonian’s Dennis Stanford and his colleague Bruce Bradley resurrected Hibben’s Solutrean hypothesis and added that pre-Clovis sites like Monte Verde in Chile represented a transitional stage between the Solutrean and Clovis—at the tip of South America! Stanford and Bradley denied that Paleoindians had developed their own stone working tradition independent of outside influences, specifically citing the lack of Clovis-style stone-working in northeast Asia as proof. Independent invention was for these scholars unlikely.

I wrote about this for Skeptic magazine several years ago, with more detail on the issues involved.

White supremacists, however, seized upon Stanford and Bradley’s claim that “the earliest origin of people in North America may have been from south-western Europe” as evidence that the first Americans had been Europeans and therefore white. But a good chunk of the discussion recently has focused not on the facts but about a piece of fiction that takes the hypothesis to a racist extreme by combining it with nineteenth century lost race theories.

One of the key texts for this is a novel by Kyle Bristow, now 27, who has come under scrutiny from the Southern Poverty Law Center for running a hate group and for sponsoring events like Catch an Illegal Immigrant Day and for calling gays “disgusting” and “degenerates” against whom America needed protection. He says he adopted his views after reading Ann Coulter’s Treason.

His novel was called White Apocalypse (2010), and the self-published thriller laid out a stark and bleak vision of prehistory in which the noble and virtuous white Solutreans traveled to America, peopled the continent, and were killed off by savage hordes of red-skinned “Beringians,” the future Native Americans. The similarity between this narrative and that of the early Mormons and of nineteenth century “lost race” theorists, all of whom accused Native Americans of killing off the original white inhabitants of America, is not coincidental.

In the novel, after a mass grave of these white heroes is uncovered, a conspiracy of Native Americans and liberals try to suppress the truth in order to advance minority rights. One of these liberals’ ancestors, Bristow wrote, “for 40,000 years were all white and he hated who he was so very much that he put an end to that tradition by becoming romantically involved with a nonwhite individual — as many white liberals are predisposed to doing these days.” The novel then depicts the heroic assassination of a minority activist in order to get the truth about the original white inhabitants of America released to the public.

Bristow dedicated the book to “the real Native Americans,” white people.

Like other fringe writers, Bristow denies being a racist. “I am by no means racist,” he told the Toledo Blade in 2011. However, while this is only a novel, it quickly became fodder for self-described “pro-white” groups. Just as the Da Vinci Code spawned debate over the truth of its claims, so too did activists attempt to promote an underlying truth to Bristow’s White Apocalypse narrative.

The Southern Poverty Law Center declared the novel “hate fiction” and accused Bristow of modeling the assassinated activist on an SPLC official. (Bristow denies the charge.) But the white nationalist radio host James Edwards declared that the book was “glowing with white pride and sorely needed these days, for European Americans are subjected to nonstop insult, abuse, and bashing.” Edwards regularly features white supremacist guests on his Memphis-based radio program, called The Political Cesspool, which airs on the Liberty News Radio Network and affiliated Christian radio stations. He has accused the Jews of working to undermine white America because of a hatred of Christianity and believes liberals use claims of racism to suppress the power of the white racial majority.

According to Anti-Racist Canada, Canadian white supremacist activist and radio host Paul Fromm also declared the novel an important piece of propaganda in the ongoing war to deprive Native Americans (First Nations) of their status as indigenous and reassign the Americas as a “white” homeland. He called the novel “a soaring inspirational dramatization of our people taking our continent back from the Third World invaders,” and he described as “cathartic” a scene in which a white person murdered Hispanics.

According to Anti-Racist Canada, white supremacists Bill Roper of White Resistance and Kevin Alfred Storm of National Vanguard praised Bristow not just for his writing talent but also for the “scholarship” that went into his depiction of prehistoric white culture. “Right Perspective” online radio host Frank from Queens was quoted by Anti-Racist Canada as saying: “The reason that the incredibly savage Meso-Amerikan (sic) Maya pressed and elongated the skull of the royalty was because of the race memory of the Great White Gods who we now know to be our Great White Solutrean Ancestors!” He went on to declare America the “true” Atlantis and Eden, an all-white paradise until the “Beringians” came and despoiled the land.

Remember: The “white” gods of Mesoamerica are a key element of Graham Hancock’s lost civilization, Ignatius Donnelly’s Atlantis, David Childress’s prehistoric race war, and many other fringe theories. While Hancock and Childress aren’t racists themselves, their arguments have become evidence for racist claims, as, unfortunately, has the faulty Solutrean hypothesis.

The Toledo Blade asked Dennis Stanford for comment. He told the Blade that there were in fact several east coast sites featuring evidence of prehistoric European visitors and that such visitors likely intermarried with Native people rather than were killed by them. He did, however, reject the white supremacist claim that America’s original white inhabitants had been exterminated by Native Americans. In his view, thanks to intermarriage, they live on in the genomes of Native peoples, something recent genetic work fails to confirm.
185 Comments
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 06:11:46 am

Jason …

Your apparent OBSESSION with "race" and "racism" and "racial-ist" fringe claims … is relentlessly contaminating what COULD be interesting fruitful discussion of possibilities of "cultural diffusion" …

What's the deal … ??? Wy are you doing this … ???

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 06:44:16 am

You are seriously trying to tell me that it is unimportant that extremist groups have extremist claims about history? I cover fringe history claims, not cultural diffusion. White supremacists, like Afrocentrists, are making fringe history claims. I didn't see you complain when I did a multipart series on Afrocentric theories in 2012 and Muslim fringe history claims in 2013. You only seem to complain when the subject involves white fringe history claims.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 07:19:16 am

Extremists and fringe movements will grab hold of anything and everything they can find in order to justify their ideological claims and further their goals …

LOTS of very creepy people have TRIED to appropriate "Darwinism," e.g., for purposes of racial-eugenic-social-economic ABUSE of other persons and groups … So what … ??? THAT is NOT a problem with "Darwin," but with the racial-ist creeps ...

But the intriguing question of a possible cultural diffusion relationship between Solutrean and Clovis lithic traditions has NOTHING AT ALL (inherently) to do with any specious racial-ist nonsense, does it … ???

But for whatever reasons of YOUR own, you seem to feel the need to introduce peculiar racial-ist ideas into nearly EVERY discussion of cultural diffusion or influence … What's the deal … ??? Why do you do that … ???

Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 07:37:50 am

You seem to be missing the point of my blog, which is to explore the way people use and abuse history. The Comte de Buffon famously wrote that Native Americans could not have been responsible for the high civilizations of the Americas because they were physical weak, mentally slow, and had unusually small penises. By your logic, we should avoid discussing Buffon's degeneracy theory in terms of its philosophical and imperial context (as justification for European hegemony) and instead restrict ourselves solely to measuring Native penises to prove the correctness of the facts. How people use ideas is often more important than the ideas themselves, and contemporary ideas should not be exempt from the scrutiny afforded historical ideas.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 07:45:14 am

I certainly agree that arguing STRENUOUSLY against racial-ist nonsense when it is brought forward AS such is entirely appropriate … But you seem t find racial-ist boogeymen hiding in EVERY corner of EVERY alternative history possibility …

Again …Earlier on, I raised the question of a POSSIBLE cultural diffusion link between Solutrean and Clovis lithic traditions NOT out of any racial interest, but simply purely as a question of HISTORY … and when you then start bringing in "racial-ism" it simply SHOUTS DOWN the possibility of an interesting discussion by derailing it ...

Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 08:08:27 am

This post isn't in reaction to anything you said. It builds on yesterday's discussion of how white supremacists twist history. I don't think you can well deny that the people quoted in today's piece are white supremacists or that they are using pseudo-historical arguments to support those beliefs.

I've already written about the Solutrean hypothesis on its merits, in the Skeptic article I linked to above.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 03:19:31 pm

Looking for -- and finding -- a foul racial-ist agenda EVERYWHERE simply SHUTS DOWN discussion ..

Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:53:03 am

Jason, as a result of the recently published genetic study of the 24,000 year old Lake Baikal, Siberia child, Native Americans are now enabled to answer the white supremacists: "Our ancestors mixed with your ancestors before our ancestors migrated to the Americas. How you been?"

See comments below, Jason if you are not yet familiar with this stunning discovery that all Native Americans share some Western Eurasian ancestry in excess of 30,000 years ago. But, via the land bridge from Asia, not across the Atlantic, though the Solutrean Hypothesis remains open and evidence to support it grows.

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/24000-year-old-boy-from-lake-baikal-is-scientific-sensation/

Joe Smith
5/20/2017 12:34:58 pm

Here you go you liberal NOB!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/americas-bog-people.html

People like you are a cancer and need eliminated.

Historian
5/20/2017 02:13:32 pm

@Joe Smith. The Solutrean hypothesis has been around for awhile now. There is evidence in support of it. Of the two bipoints found in the Delmarva that were found to be made of French flint, at least the one can be considered found in circumstances that some would find compelling. The other cannot because it was found beneath the chimney of an 18th century foundation. But I could go on offering evidence in support of the hypothesis.

But, why are you posting a 5 year old article from the popular press? Don't you keep up with the actual discussion among archaeologists involved with the peopling of the Americas, including those who favor your point of view? Why a 5 year old piece from the popular press? At least you could make the effort to demonstrate you're keeping up with more current research. As well, even in the legitimate debates that weigh the evidence pro and con for this particular hypothesis, usually one researcher won't actually wish death upon the other researcher.

Science is, by its very definition, self correcting. We're just in a situation that the hypothesis has not advanced past the hypothesis stage. Even Stanford and Bradley, the leading proponents of the Solutrean hypothesis, are certainly not angry at those who disagree with them. They are not wishing death upon those who argue against their hypothesis, lol. Point and counterpoint is part of the scientific process. They certainly understand that. You obviously do not. Your last comment only reflects on your lack of maturity when it comes to debating theories.

I've seen some very lively live debates and panel roundtables before, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the proponent of one point of view actually wish death upon the proponent of an opposing point of view. Well, maybe white supremacists act that way, I wouldn't know, but perhaps that's why you're so angry that the theory has not been accepted. BTW, and you can look this up. White pigmentation in Europeans developed about 8,000 years ago, roughly 12,000 years after the Solutrean industry existed. Therefore, Solutreans were not white.

Historian
5/20/2017 02:34:51 pm

These fringe extremist groups can think their embrace of the Solutrean hypotheses supports their fringe history, but it's a moot and baseless claim at this point. White pigmentation did not develop in European peoples until some 12,000 years after the Solutrean industry(it was a technology, not a people in any event) existed. Therefore, the European peoples utilizing Solutrean technology were not white.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

Francis Fromal
2/3/2020 03:22:06 pm

You continue the democratic original kkks goals to make everything racially oriented, to hold blacks and other ethnicities in bondage through anger and self pity. Continuing a everythings rascist narrative shows everyone your the rascist. And american indians slaughtered theyre own for land and power as every culture has. Beating a dead mule. I believe the biface and clovis of north america without doubt are not of native american make.

The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:45:25 am

Looks like someone is obsessed with denying the racist use of claims he upholds. Because HE'S not racist, then supposedly anything he believes in couldn't be used for racist purposes, even though that's clearly not the case.

What's the deal … ??? Wy (sic) are you doing this … ???

Reply
The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:46:37 am

(Sorry for the double-post. It told me there was an error submitting the comment, and it didn't show up. Then it did. Twice.)

Jim
1/31/2014 08:54:38 am

I got the same error, but I did not try to resubmit my comment and only refreshed the page, after which my comment was visible. I see other double posted comments as well, and Tara mentioned receiving this error on a previous post... looks like there may be an issue if the site gets too much simultaneous action?

The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:45:37 am

Looks like someone is obsessed with denying the racist use of claims he upholds. Because HE'S not racist, then supposedly anything he believes in couldn't be used for racist purposes, even though that's clearly not the case.

What's the deal … ??? Wy (sic) are you doing this … ???

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 10:20:19 am

(1) I simply find it passing STRANGE how FREQUENTLY these discussions are derailed by invocations of "racial-ism" …

(2) AND … I DON'T "hold" any particular view or claim about, say, "Solutrean - Clovis" cultural relationships ...

Jason is wrong about "Racism"
1/31/2014 10:05:05 pm

Jason is wrong with the "Racist" argument here

Sure, we are dealing with "Racism", but what kind of Racism

It doesn't belong to the world of reality, and it's laughable in the extreme that any active anti-Racist group would take any of it seriously.

EvD does not go about making anti-Semitic dialogue or anti-black activities anywhere at all - not in public, not in the privacy of his own home.

When fringe authors like EvD refer to "Racism" it's not "football" but "kicking the ball and running after it" - which isn't "football"

Nope, there is no "Racism" within the popular fringe alternative history of today,

Reply
Only Me
2/1/2014 07:45:21 am

Q: What's black and white and read all over?

A: Victorian beliefs dredged up, repackaged and reused by contemporary fringe authors.

Gunn Sinclair
2/1/2014 03:57:21 am

From my own point of view as someone who actually does have a "touch" of untreated OCD, Jason does appear to be at least a bit afflicted with this psychological input. Afflicted isn't always a good word to use, though, as some good can come of this slight interruption in ordinary laziness...it can prompt one to dig further and further into a subject: In this case, RACISM.

Yes, I see a preoccupation with the notion, almost an inability to help himself from analyzing things racial in practically any historical setting. With the addition of this blog heading, I now see a fixation, much as I've been somewhat accurately accused of focusing too much on the KRS here on this blog...to the point where I now feel I have to apologize any time someone else or myself keys in those letters.

All I'm left to think in the end here, is that Jason wants this seeming obsession to become a part of his online persona, as a calculated move, much as Wolter himself may calculate in certain things regarding his own persona. It's weird to see people mold themselves.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/1/2014 04:01:24 am

So some people make wildly racist claims in order to promote white supremacy, and you're blaming me for reporting it? Would you prefer I just pretend that it doesn't exist so no one's feelings get hurt?

Will
2/1/2014 05:04:29 am

I don't understand why everything always has to be a conspiracy or ulterior motive to everything. When someone writes something like:

"All I'm left to think in the end here, is that Jason wants this seeming obsession to become a part of his online persona, as a calculated move, much as Wolter himself may calculate in certain things regarding his own persona. It's weird to see people mold themselves."

Isn't it more logical that this article was the next step in an ongoing discussion of previous blog posts on a topic of interest to the person writing the blog?

Gunn
2/1/2014 06:27:37 am

Will, no. It was more like the next step to the next claim of fringe racism, which is, yes, a topic of interest to the blog host. My point. The interest seems great and focused.

Jason, no great offense intended here. It's just so darn noticeable, and you even focused in on the racial stuff from your college as being significant. I'm just saying that you really do seem to see a lot of racism from the fringes, too, not just from your college...like, it's still everywhere, and you can't get away from it.

I'm not "blaming" you for reporting on wild racist claims, as that projects a negative I don't intend; rather, I'm pointing out that your focus is very publicly obvious, and not merely the product of everyone's imagination.

I see good in what you're doing, as I've said before, in exposing any hate messages related to race; I just think you go too far when you cast the net from these severe cases, often dealing with aliens and such, and make it land over every fringe debater's head and shoulders.

If peoples' feelings need to be hurt, I guess you're the one to do it, as there aren't that many de-bunkers of nonsense around. Some of us would just prefer that you aren't too harsh where it's not needed because of this seemingly intense inner need to define history by using racial implications all the time. I think the zealous "white" racism charges are the ones we're talking about.

It's just very difficult to judge peoples' intentions, and each menace carries it's own brand of baggage. If people are obvious in making these claims in order to actually promote white supremacy, that's a different matter. In this case, I say go for it full speed ahead.

john linehan link
2/1/2014 12:25:10 pm

Contrary to your view, its all very interesting how these fringe movements operate, each having their own story.

Reply
Christopher Harper
2/13/2017 01:56:58 pm

And you call yourself a man of God? Why are people so OBSESSED with Obama? Racism is REAL. And since I am in the "future" (it's 2017) if you're honest you'd agree after Trump became POTUS. Immediately after his election hate crimes rose. So this young man is correct in speaking on these issues. Perhaps if this great nation was as honest as he is we would be past these problems. God bless him and you as well.

Reply
Lev P
1/31/2014 06:26:21 am

This is quite disturbing.
I have to wonder what these bigots would have to say if it turned out that the Mormons had it right all along and America's original inhabitants were Jews...

Reply
Jim
1/31/2014 08:45:34 am

If you watch South Park, then you would know that the Mormons are the _only_ ones to have gotten it right...

Reply
Walt
1/31/2014 06:35:09 am

Shoot, I read the title wrong... kept waiting for you to tie white supremacists to "Soultrain".

Within the last month or two, I've seen a show on History suggesting that, based on analysis of those stone points, Europeans came to the American east coast then merged with Asians who crossed the land bridge to form the Clovis. It may have been a rerun and I don't remember the name of the show, but I hope I see it again now.

Reply
Will
1/31/2014 08:55:41 am

I thought of the same groaner as I was reading the title!

Soul train! LOL!

Reply
Heidi
1/31/2014 06:40:40 am

To the so called Reverend - why are you approaching a private citizen who just so happens to have a background in the classics and archaeology who has made his reputation on debunking alternative history claims and imploring him to talk about other issues when his website is explicitly devoted to other ends? If you want to explore cultural diffusion find a yahoo group and go back to college and get your own degree in the classics or in archaeology so you can bring pressure to bear with the ideas and subjects you are passionate about. You sound like a victim and I would not expect Jason to dignify your question with a response. To be honest, there are some hateful closed minded people who sometimes post on Jasons discussions and I am not defending their bigotry but you are wearing your heart on your sleeve and you might as well have a sign that reads "Kick Me" on your back. Look at the obvious before you ask for sympathy.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 06:45:54 am

While I appreciate the passion you've brought to the discussion, Heidi, as per my comments policy of 1/24/14, I ask that we please refrain from personal attacks.

Reply
Heidi
1/31/2014 07:04:56 am

Sorry Jason. I will behave. Sorry Reverend if I offended you. I just wanted to try and move you out of harms way. Sometimes the discussions get heated.

Chris
1/31/2014 08:30:16 am

Heidi,
I believe the issue at hand is that the Rev. Gotsch wants Jason to explore ideas that Jason has already explored and dismissed. For example, the Rev. mentions the "intriguing possibilities" of Clovis-Solutrean cultural diffusion, but as Jason states (and gives links to his previous discussions on the subject) there are no real solid pieces of evidence to support these claims. The Rev. also feels that by discussing the misuse of these ideas Jason is only avoiding substantive debate on the issue and unfairly criticizing it. The problem, for the Rev., is that Jason wrote the article with understanding that the Clovis-Solutrean cultural diffusion theory was unproven and incorrect and not in need of any further discussion.

Reply
Walt
1/31/2014 08:48:20 am

To say it another way, pseudo-scientists of every type assume the consensus of the experts is incorrect and state their own beliefs based upon that assumption. Jason then dismisses their beliefs because they aren't supported by the consensus of the experts.

That has nothing to do with race, however. Jason does see race in many places that I don't, such as AU. But, he also presents the full history that led him to his conclusion, and that history often ends with people who undeniably held racist views.

Heidi link
1/31/2014 11:51:09 am

I did catch that as well Chris, I think at the time, I was just trying to move the discussion out of hot water territory and to be as polite as possible while pointing out that his attempt to create discussion was inappropriate. Either way, I came across as being on the offensive which was not my intent.

Will
1/31/2014 09:30:45 am

There seems to be two comment "camps" on Jason's blog lately.

Some folks are interested in help eradicating fringe theories that are unfounded regardless of whether the claims are racially motivated or not. Many of the fringe theory topics Jason has presented recently have to do with white people bringing "real civilization" to other groups of non-white inhabitants. The folks in this camp charge that the fringe ideas have the propensity to give racially motivated groups "facts" to use in their crusades.

The other camp seems to feel that as long as the topics generate interest in historical research, any harm that can come from fringe theories is simply collateral damage that would probably happen anyway.

I am not sure there is really a middle point to come to on this topic, which is why the comments have turned from interesting to name-calling and personal attacks.

I think that for everyone's sanity (and more productive discussion) both camps should just agree to disagree and focus on the content at hand.

That being said Jason has provided all of us with a rich source of researched information in a format that clearly explores how history is used both positively and negatively by different factions of society.

It seems that we may have forgotten that many new viewpoints in history are discovered by folks like Jason connecting the dots between things that might not seem related at the time. Simply put, not all of an historian's work is based on original "boots on the ground" research. Successful articles, books, and other media have been produced that simply tie together previously researched material to support a conclusion.

While many might not agree with Jason and his racial analysis, I feel that no one else on this blog or on other sites I am familiar with present evidence in the cohesive, sourced, and logically organized format. In fact, if there are such fringe history sites that follow this format I would be more than happy to read them for the other point of view.

My opinion is that these types of sites are not available because if fringe historians were to declare a hypothesis and subsequently try to write a piece in Jason's style it would immediately look false because the pieces really don't fit. People simply wouldn't believe it.

Reply
Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 10:06:40 am

"I think that for everyone's sanity (and more productive discussion) both camps should just agree to disagree and focus on the content at hand."

There is one major problem with your approach,you cannot argument with individuals who live in perpetual denial.We oppose rational thinking/scientific methodology to wild speculations/fabrications based on faith,ignorance & gullibility.
(I am deliberately avoiding to comment on the topic of race/racism/racialism,because for me,the concept of race,is a psychological construction).

The Other J.
1/31/2014 10:35:34 am

This reminds me of Brak Counterbrak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CZtpd6xzAQ

Will
1/31/2014 10:39:38 am

Tara,

While I agree it is important to forge forward in an effort to prevent the misuse of history for any purpose, as it stands, and by your own admission there are folks out there who live in perpetual denial.

I simply take that as a given. In any population you will have those types of folks. I am not endorsing or defending them, but the fact remains that they exist.

To fight with them over the impact of fringe history within society only gives them the forum they need to continue spreading their message. Many people are easily swayed regardless of facts and at the risk of sounding cliche, a quote by Mark Twain seems to fit the bill in my opinion only:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference"

Thus, by engaging the less than savory characters, we might be egging on some "onlookers" in the direction of fringe history which is precisely what fringe historians are hoping happens.

In short, I agree with your zeal for the truth in your commentary here, its just something my Dad beat into my head over the years:

"Stop trying to prove to stupid people that they are stupid. To prevent yourself from doing that, remember: "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing."

The main thing in this case is putting out real, factually based things about these fringe history topics and let people come to their own conclusions. Most reasonable people will see the truth, those that don't never will.

Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 11:04:58 am

I am not denying these individuals their right to transmute weird/alternative thinking into "common knowledge".I place confidence in free will & self determination,however I do have a major problem with individuals like Scott Wolter & Co,who engage in quack/pseudo science & outright deception,while pretending to do "science".You probably noticed but I don't spend much time on crackpots like Giorgio Tsoukalos,David Hatcher Childress & the like,because they happen to be crackpots.Wolter is a different breed (no pun intended) because he uses his professional credentials to promote "researches & theories" that discredit & violate the very notion of scientific methodology & academic protocols.

Byron DeLear link
1/31/2014 11:09:18 am

Good observations Will. Your depiction of two camps is largely on target. Regarding your assertion that fringe theories are never explored in a rigorous manner, I'd offer that at least sometimes portions of such theorizing can be looked at in an evidence-based manner that would qualify as academic analysis. For example, my recent Examiner piece looks at the symbolism theory presented in the America Unearthed episode, Secret Blueprint for America, and in my opinion, reaches a prima facie conclusion based on an a fortiori argument, that indeed, it's quite plausible that symbols were incorporated into the designs and vision for the "Federal City." The piece also unpacks two camps in examining the ongoing debate on Jason's blog. Check it out, if you hadn't—the link is on my name. "Semiotics and symbolism at the founding of Washington DC and USA."

Tara Jordan
1/31/2014 11:51:57 am

Byron
"symbols were incorporated into the designs and vision for the "Federal City."

I think it is pointless to bring the issue of symbolism behind Masonic architecture,because this is not a secret (even less of a sinister conspiracy).You will find the same type of symbolism in Masonic architecture in Paris-France:
Un secret d'Initiés: http://dai.ly/xhagqk
You may also read "Le Mystere des Cathedrales" (The Mystery of the Cathedrals) by Fulcanelli (the French alchemist and esoteric author) who did an outstanding exposé on the esoteric symbolism inside French Cathedrals.

Byron DeLear link
1/31/2014 01:41:02 pm

I've read Fulcanelli and several other books that build on Fulcanelli's take on the Cross of Hendaye. It's fascinating stuff! Per your comment, I think its potentially overreaching to proclaim the design and layout of Washington D.C. strictly as "Masonic architecture," although its historically clear, as I point out in the Examiner piece linked on my name, the craft had a very critical role in the whole affair. But you're right it doesn't seem to be too conspiratorial, although it sure has inspired a lot of authors' imaginations!

Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 03:13:43 pm

Byron
Just between you & me,I love this kind of stuff (this is far from bigfoot,ancient Aliens & pyramids lunacies).Years ago,I went as far as building a psychological profile on Edward Kelley & his not so "Enochian" relations with John Dee:)

Gunn Sinclair link
2/1/2014 02:36:48 am

Byron DeLear said (to Will), "Regarding your assertion that fringe theories are never explored in a rigorous manner, I'd offer that at least sometimes portions of such theorizing can be looked at in an evidence-based manner that would qualify as academic analysis."

To which I say: Well said. I like the concept, personally, because it leaves room for the average Joe (or Joline) to possibly contribute to unraveling history...but the so-called evidence better be good.

People are mad at Wolter because he bravely stands astride history with one foot firmly rooted in speculation while the other foot is rooted in academic analysis--just barely, some would say. This is his TV show paradigm, and it's working for now.

In the end, the evidence always tells the story, and it doesn't always matter that much where the history puzzle pieces came from. When history truth rises to the surface, that's a good thing, and it's also a good thing to hope for, and this doesn't always take an expert, to look, study and hope--not to hope in the way of religious faith, but in the way of locating non-refutable evidence.

Will
2/1/2014 03:11:08 am

Just to clarify, I did not say that fringe history topics were "never" explored in an evidentiary manner, its just that I personally am not familiar with sites/blogs that regularly examine content in that way.

Byron, I liked the presentation of your article because the suggestion that a social group left symbolism behind is a reasonable hypothesis to explore. Groups of people with something in common leave marks of their presence in many ways, consider Kilroy during WWII.

Your presentation of a possibility that symbolism on some level was left behind in the construction of Washington, D.C. is totally different from claiming the Washington Monument is Jesus' holy penis entering the vulva of Mary Magdalene as represented by walkways.

Anecdotally speaking, I have seen remnants of the group of workers that built my house as I am remodeling it. Specifically, under all of the window frames, the builders left pennies with punched out crosses. While interesting, it is not evidence of a suppressed truth or conspiracy of any sort.

Gunn, in my opinion only, I disagree with why you think people are mad at Wolter.

Fringe historians consistently push the idea that any historical research, true or not, generates interest in any given topic which leads to a generally better understanding of history.

I believe at best, this line of thinking is a moot point. Jason did a great job with providing us with evidence that the demographic targeted by the History Channel for shows like America Unearthed are upper middle-class white males. The actual viewership appears to be consistent with the information we have been provided with so far.

My guess is that by and large, America Unearthed is not being used as a teaching tool by upper middle-class white males to further educate their children and spouses about incorrect history taught to them from traditional venues. It is highly unlikely that a parent or spouse would use the show as a teachable moment to generate interest in historical matters within their son or daughter. Plus the show is on too late for that.

People that watch shows like this have a vested interest in history as a hobby. There are two sides fighting it out now on this blog, pro-Wolter style folks and anti-Wolter style folks.

Simply put, some folks are mad at Wolter because they think everything he says is a lie and has a TV show to get his message out. Reading into the anger any farther than this is simply a defense mechanism for people who do not want to believe these topics are bunk. There is not some conspiracy where naysayers are mad the Scott might uncover something that can knock them down out of their Ivory Towers and so forth, they just don't like unsubstantiated history.

And that's fine. Some people like unsubstantiated history. That's fine too. It's just not fair to expect means tested theories and facts to share the scale equally with speculation.

Gunn
2/1/2014 03:42:02 am


Will: Simply put, some folks are mad at Wolter because they think everything he says is a lie and has a TV show to get his message out.

After all the words, this is your personal interpretation, then? I'd say this is rather brief and drastic, especially when you prefaced your interpretation with "some" people. That doesn't carry much weight. I'm just saying your own view is very narrow, and doesn't leave room for anything positive. I'd venture to guess that many, many people actually do enjoy AU, and they don't think EVERYTHING he says is a lie. I'd like to think my illustration of Wolter is more accurate than your somewhat judgmental view of him being incapable of telling anything at all truthful. It smacks just a bit of being a Wolter attack.

Will
2/1/2014 03:57:08 am

Gunn,

I know that you have an affinity for Wolter based on your interest in proving the KRS to be genuine. You feel that his research bolsters your view. I think that is cool.

I also can tell you have an affinity for Wolter based on the way you worded your last comment, a clearly defensive tone dominated it.

As far as my view, I really did not share it. I was simply trying to independently summarize the views that have been expressed on this blog by various participants and arriving at my own conclusion as to the nature of dispute and resolution of said dispute.

In doing so, I suppose using "some folks" could be perceived as a way for me to "wriggle out" of taking a stance. This language was not used for this purpose and to clarify my position on Wolter consider the following statement:

I like History. I think alternative ideas are interesting, including things like the KRS. I just want evidence to back up the claims. I do not care what Scott Wolter does period, lest be angry with him. My life will not change in any way if any of these claims are proven to be true or false. My postings are more about summarizing and providing some commentary about the interaction of the discussion participants in the blog comments.

Gunn
2/1/2014 07:07:59 am

Okay. I just thought it was a bit unfair for you to say that basically everything Wolter says is a lie, in your analysis. Of course I would defend him in this, as you correctly pointed out, because he helped in these modern times to re-establish claims of legitimacy for "said stone."

I admit that it is probably difficult for many folks to see his claims about this artifact as credible, since most of his TV show seems to lack credibility. And, yes, I do see this as a problem....

In a way, this is almost like adding baggage to the message of that Old Trouble Maker, which I've always deplored coming from others, as well as Wolter. If nothing else, I am a message purist, and yes, it matters greatly in understanding and appreciating its place in history.

It may be that Wolter helped at first, but not so much any longer. He needs to improve his public image by finding something more credible than he's found so far. In my humble opinion, he needs to go back to better credibility, so the Old Trouble Maker isn't constantly being re-tarnished by having a tarnished spokesman. Big Ole is bad enough!

I want the Old Trouble Maker to be a grand stepping stone, not a dusty floor mat.

Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 08:43:07 am

I wonder what Sheriff Joe Arpaio thinks about The Solutrean Hypothesis?

Reply
The Other J.
1/31/2014 09:17:51 am

Two things with the Solutrean-first claim that are a little odd:

1.) It presupposes that the Solutreans were white. Do we know this? Take the recent story about the La Brana man from northern Spain that just came out; that guy was only 7,000 years old and wasn't phenotypically Caucasian. So how can we know that people from Spain that lived 18,0000 years before La Brana man were or weren't white?

2.) If you go with the Dennis Stanford position that white Solutrean genes are carried on in Native American bodies, that line of argument leans in the direction of one race populating and displacing the other race from within (which is basically what Australia attempted to do with Aboriginal peoples in the 19th and early 20th centuries). That's essentially the same thing as what Bristow frets about when he says self-hating white liberals got involved with non-whites 40,000 years ago, which threatens the white race. Because that's how the argument goes -- white genes will somehow be swamped by non-white genes; the same argument gets knocked around regarding blond-haired people. So it's okay if it's white genes swamping non-white genes, but it's an abomination if it's non-white genes swamping white genes. Which, by the way, isn't really possible in the first place -- that's not how genes work. Unless there's sexual selection or some kind of environmental pressure against a genetic trait, it remains as non-dominant and will still emerge form time to time.

Reply
Gary
1/31/2014 12:49:47 pm

Not only were they likely not white, recent studies say that those Europeans were mostly replaced by people from Southwest Asia who brought agriculture to Europe. They are the ancestors of most Europeans, not the earlier inhabitants.

Reply
The Other J.
1/31/2014 01:32:20 pm

Well there you go.

Titus pullo
1/31/2014 10:22:42 am

First any Europeans in southern Spain 16000 years ago were hardly white...most likely olive skin so this idea of the white aryan über an is just such garbage. That said we need to remove these ethnowack jobs from serious discussion on the solutrean theory. Also the southern poverty law center us a far left anti liberty natural right org which attacks freedom of association, believes in enforced redistribution of wealth and group rights. Ant good they did fighting Jim Crow laws if any has been replaced by Marxist race baiting. I wonder how they feel about the us invasion of Iraq? Or the occupation of garza?

Reply
Titus
1/31/2014 10:26:06 am

Sorry typing too fast on my iPad mini. I meant to say the gaza occupation. Or for that matter racial quotas or the patriot act and it's attack on the 4th amendment. Sorry as a libertarian I have little respect for the hate mongers at the southern poverty law center.

Reply
Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 10:39:29 am

"First any Europeans in southern Spain 16000 years ago were hardly white."
+10
http://tinyurl.com/lxwwju6
http://tinyurl.com/kyl3lvb
http://tinyurl.com/72gsdfl


Reply
Titus
1/31/2014 02:31:32 pm

Tara,

I need a translation of those journal articles. Last time I took biochemistry was in my organic chemistry class 31 years ago. The nomenclature alone was mostly foreign to me. Need to better understand mitochondrial DNA and theories of diffusion and the change from nomadic to aground culture. I think you were agreeing with my point that white wasn't white so to speak.

Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 03:02:17 pm

"I think you were agreeing with my point that white wasn't white so to speak."

Indeed.

Kyle Bristow link
1/31/2014 12:19:58 pm

You forgot the most important thing to mention in your article: that White Apocalypse is available for purchase from Amazon.com and qualifies for free shipping!

http://www.amazon.com/White-Apocalypse-The-Conscience-Right-Winger/dp/1492784230

Reply
Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 12:25:51 pm

That was fast, Kyle. (Yes, this is actually Kyle.) I don't generally allow commercial advertisements on my website, and you should expect that other readers will want to ask you more than a few questions about your book.

Reply
Kyle Bristow link
1/31/2014 01:34:35 pm

I’d love to answer questions from your readers, but I fear that I may be too busy to do so. I spend all my time these days investigating the ancient astronaut theory, evidence of Bigfoot’s existence, proof that the Yeti exists, and analyzing how pyramids were built on Mars to pay homage to the alien-deity that Kurt Russell allegedly killed in the documentary entitled “Stargate.” (I did try to shoot Bigfoot with a 6.5mm Grendel this past hunting season in Michigan, but a deer unfortunately got in the way.)

I nevertheless challenge you to read the book instead of what others have written about it and to actually attempt to refute the facts I offered in it to evince the validity of the Solutrean Hypothesis. Sadly, it appears that the enforcers of political correctness are more interested in utilizing hyperbolic emotive insults that impugn one’s character and motives than to actually discuss legitimate issues. (I believe that between your comments and your blog post, you used the term “white supremacist” no less than ten times. I believe that this may be a record—even the Southern Poverty Law Center exercises more restraint when slurring political dissidents.)

I do have a few questions for which I do not expect an answer—only your contemplation:

If Caucasians did not migrate to North America prior to the Vikings circa 1000 A.D., then how did Dr. Joseph Lorenz of the Coriell Institute for Medical Research find modern European DNA in 5,000-year-old bodies that were found preserved in Florida’s oxygen-depleted Windover Bog? (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbayBEbIEwc)

If Solutreans—whether they be racially Caucasian or not—did not migrate to North America prior to 17,000 years ago, then how is it that a mastodon tusk carbon-dated to being 22,000 years old and with an embedded spearhead of a Solutrean design was found in the mouth of Chesapeake Bay? (Google Cinmar discovery.)

If there isn’t a conspiracy to whitewash (pun intended) prehistory, why is it that a federal judge ruled that a federal agency violated a court order and federal law by burying the location where the Kennewick Man remains were found under thousands of tons of gravel? How could a federal judge rule after hearing testimony and viewing evidence that Kennewick Man was not an ancestor of modern “Native” Americans living in the Washington-Oregon region of the United States? Bonnichsen v. United States, 217 F. Supp. 2d 1116 (D. OR. 2002).

If the first migrants came to North America by crossing the Bering Strait, then why is it that the oldest Paleo-Indian settlements are located on the eastern portion of North America? Why is it that the Cinmar discovery occurred on the eastern coast of the U.S. rather than on the western coast?

Jason Colavito link
1/31/2014 10:44:15 pm

I'm so glad, Kyle, that you were able to spare the time from your busy schedule to Google your name, spam my blog with an ad for your book, and then drop in a "challenge" and questions you intend to be rhetorical points for your point of view.

If you are half as well-read as you say you are, then you already know that the Windover DNA results failed the replication tests. Multiple attempts to extract DNA from the bodies after the first "European" results were reported failed to find any European DNA and, worse, also could not locate any mitochondrial DNA markers associated with Europe. Most scientists believe the first results were due to contamination since they could not be repeated. You will, undoubtedly, call this a conspiracy.

The Cinmar blade remains interesting, but its context cannot be determined. Recovered from the bottom of the sea, there is no way to know that it was deposited there due to inhabitants of Virginia and not due to sea action, nor can it be shown that the blade was definitively European or actually associated with the mastodon bone dredged up with it.

You also know that court rulings aren't scientific determinations but legal ones. Whether a court says proper procedure was followed in the Kennewick Man case changes nothing about the body's alleged ethnic origin.

The oldest confirmed site in the Americas is at Monte Verde, on the west coast of Chile. By your logic, the first Americans were therefore from Australia. The reason is obvious: The oldest sites to the north are now underwater, when the glaciers flooded the continental shelf.

Andrew Churchill
2/3/2014 03:59:47 am

What are your thoughts on the Spirit Cave Mummy Jason? I have to admit the Solutrean thesis is the one area of alternative theory that holds some interest for me as an interesting discussion point.

Jason Colavito link
2/3/2014 04:18:42 am

The Spirit Cave mummy is fascinating because it is so old, but it's not right to conclude that "Caucasoid" characteristics, referring to skull shape, imply a Caucasian (European) individual. Asian populations had great diversity (as the continued existence of the Ainu shows), and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people who crossed over the Bering Strait over the millennia came from different Asian groups.

Andrew Churchill
2/3/2014 11:20:41 am

Yes that's quite true; thank you for your input Jason. I remember reading that some Native Americans might have descended from a potentially ancient European group that long ago had migrated into Asia and from there into North America. This would account for some elements of European DNA showing up in the tests taken on bones in North America.

Gunn link
1/31/2014 01:41:30 pm

So, I guess the debate now may be about DNA, rather than color, if the blue-eyed dark-skinned Spaniard has anything to do with it. But of course, we don't know if he was typical to that area, passing through, or what.

Otherwise, the debate would still be concerning Europeans coming to the New Continent before Asians, but not much to do with color. So, our history paradigm may be shifting away from skin color as a major factor for potential bigotry, past and present. This may be good and confusing news.

So then, a new and better title for this book may be "European Apocalypse," rather than "White Apocalypse," but I guess it just wouldn't have the same ring to it, would it?

Also, DNA wouldn't be a factor for researching, anyway, if the basic spear-point technology being debated was simply introduced at the East Coast, and the bringers of the technology then quickly died out, leaving no traceable DNA. So, this shouldn't be a reason to go negative on the European connection hypothesis.

Reply
Dave Lewis
1/31/2014 02:06:38 pm

Kyle Bristow said

"You forgot the most important thing to mention in your article: that White Apocalypse is available for purchase from Amazon.com and qualifies for free shipping!"

Does that seem important to anyone other than Kyle?

Reply
Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 02:55:36 pm

"If Caucasians did not migrate to North America prior to the Vikings circa 1000 A.D., then how did Dr. Joseph Lorenz of the Coriell Institute for Medical Research find modern European DNA in 5,000-year-old bodies that were found preserved in Florida’s oxygen-depleted Windover Bog"

I think you have an extremely narrow understanding of what is "modern European DNA" in particular,& genetics in general.Kyle Bristow,people like yourself are fascinating,because they firmly believe that the transmission of intelligence,knowledge & to a larger extent,civilizational supremacy,is De Facto associated with blood & genetics.
If you could spend some time doing field researches,you`ll soon realize that the concept of race is a Non sequitur.The reality of societal/cultural/existential antagonism overshadows the very notion of skin color,genetic affiliation & ethnicity.You are solely judged on your ability & willingness to adapt to the environment & the local culture (tribal or societal norms).Race is never an issue.Even in Social Darwinist,the skin color/pigmentation,genetic affiliation is no part of the equation,it is the capacity to adapt.

The idea that Neolithic "Natives Americans" couldn't have achieve anything on their own,without contribution from South-Western European "Caucasians"is farcical.I think you spent too much time reading traditionalists like René Guenon & Julius Evola.I`d hate to break your heart,but Hyperborean is nothing but a myth.

Reply
Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 02:59:00 pm

I apologize for the typographical errors.

Walt
1/31/2014 03:43:44 pm

I really think you're stating as fact something which has not been determined yet. Real professionals are still debating the origin of the Clovis culture. Jason's article from skeptic magazine, in addition to containing a typo (finks s/b links) is also a bit biased. It even ends with a little kumbuya moment for the Native Americans, which made me roll my eyes just like AA and AU do. I'm part Cherokee, BTW, but it was clearly a biased article. Jason's analysis may be correct and it does agree with the current consensus (surprise, surprise), but the subject really is still being debated. At least check out the wikipedia page and its references for a more complete history than Jason provides.

John Linehan link
2/1/2014 12:29:40 pm

Kyle, I am waiting for you to respond to Jason's points but apparently you won't. I suspect you won't not because you are "busy," but because your arguments cannot stand up to these counter-arguments. This must be difficult since you've spent so much time in something that just isn't true.

Having said that, a couple years ago I actually contacted Joseph Lorenz about the Windover Bog people, the professor who was in that "documentary," and here's what he said,

"Hello John,
You may have been referred to me beacuse I was interviewed for a video entitled "Secrets of the Bog People" or something like that. A British production company was doing a video on the bog cemetary from Windover, Florida, they asked me if I would be willing to reanalyze some of the samples that Dr. Bill Hauswirth had originally analyzed (see citation below). My original results of the mitochondrial DNA did show European haplotypes which I feel was due to contamination of the tissue at the time of collection. I told the producer that the most parsimonious explanation was that the results were due to contamination at the excavation but they wanted a "sexier" interpretation. In the interview I was asked questions along the lines of "if the results of the analysis were not due to contamination would this indicate European ancestry..." but I adamantly hold to my position that the results most likely were due to contamination. Subsequent analysis of mtDNA from teeth showed that the skeletal DNA was concordant with Asian origins of the individuals. I agree that there are people that believe that the scientific establishment is hiding the "Truth" from the public but what would the scientists have to ain from this? Paradigms change all the time in science .... when the evidence merits the change. To answer your question directly, there is no credible evidence that the Windover Bog people are European in origin. Please feel free to contact me if you have any other questions! Take care,
Joe"

Now, it isn't hard to find his email because I don't want to give it out here... and he is easy to talk too. Nice guy btw.

Long story short, the attempted DNA extracted from Windover were "most likely contaminated." DNA contamination is a common problem as modern DNA is everywhere; skin cells, breathing, hair, contaminated PCR due to mishandling of products, uncontrolled digs etc.

Reply
The Mighty Quinn
1/31/2014 12:56:21 pm

Jason,
I have been following you for years and have always abstained from commenting as I find that many other regulars express my opinion far more eloquently than I am capable.
That being said, the good reverend finally gave me reason to comment.
I find that your presentation is well-researched and in my opinion unbiased, in regards to established, tested facts.
To claim that you are "obsessed" with racism is ridiculous. You are merely presenting factual reaction to thought-provoking topics of interest for which are the basis of the website as it is.
I am an amateur researcher with a BA in History (Religion minor) from a fairly prestigious liberal arts university. I only wish that I had easy access to the resources of today 20 years ago when I was writing theses!
In any case, please carry on the good work, I am sure there are countless more such as myself who enjoy the discussions in this blog but do not comment. ( I guess I can finally take myself off of that list.)

Reply
Tara Jordan link
1/31/2014 03:41:29 pm

I`d encourage you (& other readers,especially those supporting Jason`s work)to participate.We,the regular "sycophants" are a minority,we definitively need more contributions

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 03:46:30 pm

This week's NOVA episode delved into the bodies
found in Europe's bogs in a mummified state of
preservation and the cultural beliefs that led up to
their often violent demises. In order to work up a
hypothesis, ancient Irish myths and legends were
looked at. Usually the Celts cremated the dead,
but there were bodies found in bogs at the foot of
the hills the village would assemble at and often
crown a new king on. An Irish body recently found
dated to the Bronze Age, not the Iron Age. Denmark
has several very striking and well preserved bog
people. The dates of roughly 900 B.C to about
200 B.C are more typical, they tend to run parallel
and in tandem with the early Roman Republic.
The hypothesis about the deaths of these kings
after a bad drought and a terrible harvest was based
on both Christian accounts and a close examination
of the bodies. Tacitus was even quoted briefly. The
way this was presented was logical and consistent.
The leaps being made were delved into as to why...
There are no Solutrean bones, only artifacts, unlike
the Neanderthals from much earlier, there is no DNA
to compare. The bog mummies are highly detailed,
but even then we must make intellectual leaps to
get inside what might be their culture. I did not at
all quibble at how the Fertility Cult aspects were gone
into. There is a curious outcome from St. Patrick's
conversion of the Irish, there was more job security
for a local or high king in Merrie Auld Ireland, a bad
harvest was not a death sentence. The Irish would
often toss valuable objects into the waters of the bogs,
knives, gold jewelry and even churned butter in a pot.
I might have been looking at near kin in terms of the
bog bodies found in Ireland, or even an ancestor....

Reply
The Other J.
1/31/2014 05:07:52 pm

I'm not averse to discussing this -- I've seen some bog bodies up close -- but I am a little curious how the topic links to this discussion. I'm assuming the link is through the leaps needed to be made when we have lots of bodies and artifacts, like with the bog bodies, and suggesting that we can know much of anything about Solutreans beyond the fact that they made some artifacts goes way beyond what we can do even when we have the bodies. I'll give you that.

And I'll check out the video. I know the bogs were seen as symbolic liminal places, where the earth, sky and water all met each other, and liminal places and times (like an equinox) were important to those people. The thinking was that such places and times were points where the spiritual and the physical overlapped -- so if you wanted to interact with the spiritual world that you thought governed your physical world, you ritually sacrificed at a place or time where you had the best chance of reaching across to the spiritual world.

And not having seen the video yet, I'll hazard a guess that the sacrificed bodies coincided with the Roman occupation in large part because the people who sacrificed items of value to the bogs thought they needed to sacrifice something of greater value if they wanted to hold off the Roman incursion and maintain their lands. That's why a number of those bog bodies are clearly well-dressed, well-fed people of means -- they were the more valuable sacrifice. It's akin to us sacrificing our business and political leaders.

Seamus Heaney used the bogs and bog bodies as themes for much of his poetry in the 1970's and 80's, much of it either comparing contemporary Ireland with its prehistoric past or comparing the Troubles with sacrificial killings of the past. "Door Into the Dark," "Wintering Out," "North" and "Field Work" are the four volumes that contain most of his bog poems.

Reply
The Other J.
1/31/2014 08:04:10 pm

(Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Irish bog sacrifices were made due to Roman incursion -- the Romans didn't make it there. Elsewhere in Europe, though, that seems to be suggested, as with Lindow Man.)

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 03:54:58 pm



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ghosts-murdered-kings.html

Program Description
"In the rolling hills of Ireland's County Tipperary, a laborer harvesting peat from a dried-up bog spots the remnants of a corpse and stops his machine just in time, revealing a headless torso almost perfectly preserved and stained dark brown by the bog. Archeologists recognize the corpse as one of Europe's rare bog bodies: prehistoric corpses flung into marshes with forensic clues often suggesting execution or human sacrifice. The corpse will eventually be dated to the Bronze Age, over 3,000 years ago. Many of these were victims of shocking violence, showing evidence of axe blows, hanging, and stab wounds. Like a crime thriller, NOVA follows archaeologists and forensic experts in their methodical hunt for clues to the identity and the circumstances of this and other violent deaths of bog body victims. A new theory emerges that they are those of ritually murdered kings, gruesomely slain to assure the fertility of land and people. NOVA’s ancient detective story opens a tantalizing window on the strange beliefs of Europe's long vanished prehistoric peoples."


http://video.pbs.org/program/nova/

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365164340/

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:10:44 pm

We have Solutrean artifacts in lieu of bones or DNA
information. My point being, even with wondrously
preserved bodies, we cannot leap from Ireland to
Denmark & then assume the customs are identical,
but in Ireland, a body about 2500+ years older than the
others but with a similar ritual kill pattern lets one
assume this practice is almost as old as the Neolithic
Revolution. The geographic band concerning the sites
with bodies in the bogs runs East to West, this lets us
link areas on a map and ecosystem niches. Bad harvests
did trigger a string of killings in Europe. Droughts can last
decades. If one is European, one does get the idea that
one's ancestors can act in a barbaric manner. The Celts
could be a contrast of esoteric philosophizing and rash
impulses, yet there was an organic unity to the culture. We
do have the irony that the species or sub-species most
superlatively well adapted to their environment are now
judged extinct save for the DNA sequences that some of
us carry in us. A recent article thinks modern humanity has
roughly 20% of the Neanderthal genome in us, if everyone's
five percent or less is a slightly different set of chromosomes.
We may be a species on a graceful gracile decline that has
the ability to almost thrive when tossed back into the many
environments our pre-Ice Age ancestors lived inside all over
the globe. Jason pegs S.W as a curious mix of speculation
and fantasy, who may be unaware of the propaganda battle.

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:26:25 pm

Race is now a dated if not almost totally inaccurate term.
Genetics and DNA research has gone beyond race in a
information revolution equal to that of the Enlightenment.
Biology is in upheaval, not Physics. When Stephen Hawking
replaced the Steady State Universe with his Big Bang one,
it was as if Descartes was dethroned by Newton once again.
There have been new advances, but nothing as controversial.
DNA research is upending the thought-systems of today's
bigots & perhaps one response to this is to hide in the past.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
1/31/2014 04:14:01 pm

The question of the cultural diffusion relationship -- if any, or not -- between the Solutrean and Clovis lithic traditions has NOTHING to do with White Racism" ...

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:37:41 pm

Rev. Phil Gotsch...

Both styles require a very specific knapping technique that is
similar. This is like a box of sugar cubes and building basic
pyramid shapes. Nearly all living humans who are fed a good
diet can recognize basic pyramid shapes, but few can knapp
as well as the Clovis or Solutrean peoples. Anthropology has
to go by the few bones and artifacts to understand our species evolution from the ancestral hominids of millions of years ago.
Jason has the better papers on the artifacts that were found,
but like with arrowheads, a 50,000 B.C date may be correctly
taken back to 300,000 B.C or 500,000 B.C by a small & ancient
arrowhead in ancient sediments. We have yet to find the link is
the safer statement. There was a point where Neanderthals
were thought to lack an artistic ability and were not thought to
have a viable culture. This is why this is a debate, it only begs
more fieldwork and having both an insight and intuition like
that of Louis Leakey or Raymond Dart as Piltdown Man ruled.

Reply
J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 04:57:14 pm

What if the Neolithic Revolution traveled south from Beringia
and the last migration had the most lasting impact. If horses
and camels could go from the New World to the Old, or even
Mammoths and Mastodons from the Old World to the New,
why not people, too? The Ice Age cycles arrives when the
Isthmus of Panama connects two continents, so that green
belt between glacial sheets was a repeat phenomenon. If
one opines that N.A + S.A had been found by hominids like
Homo Habilis or Homo Erectus for about 2 to 3 million years,
then one should be asked for skeletal proof. I admit this is
akin to Scott Wolter on vacation in Hawaii & talking about
Hobbits on Flores as he assumes a numerous Lemurian
species traveled far. My bias is not Jason's, i expect over the
next 200 years we will see extremely ancient dig sites in the
Americas that will go back hundreds of thousands of years.

jiiikoo
2/1/2014 12:19:27 am

I just watched the new episode of AA and I have to say that I wouldn't want to work at the Smithsonian institute as the person who has to answer the phone when people phone to ask about the Grand Canyon hoax.

Reply
Kyle Bristow link
2/1/2014 01:17:56 am

I think Jason is a Solutrean Holocaust Denier.

:(

Reply
Tom
2/1/2014 01:38:06 am

Holocaust or Savage Native American Indian apocalypse?

Reply
Normandie Kent
10/4/2017 02:20:14 pm

You must mean the Mass immigration of hordes of European invaders, and the subsequent Genocide of the Native Americans in their own ancient Homeland, the Two continents of the Americas!

J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:07:48 am

To Kyle Bristow...

There was no Solutrean Holocaust. There were bold travelers
who had pulled off two way voyages back and forth between
Europe and/or Africa to the New World in a time well long
before the Younger Dryas. You are making the same big
mistake Robert E. Howard did with Conan the Barbarian...
you have a fictional work projecting a Neolithic value system
way back into the Paleolithic. North America each ice age had
waves of immigration over Beringia and South America has
the possibility of early sailors traveling from New Zealand
towards the tip of South America due North of the pack ice
of the South Pole. Its like Thor Heyerdahl's fete but in colder
southerly waters. There was no Clovis-Solutrean Holocaust.
There may have been the impact of a meteor that caused
the melt at the end of the last Ice Age. The Atlantis Holocaust
is the submerging of the coastlines globally that ends the
Epoch. Edmund Halley was perceptive, a meteor hitting sheet
ice near Hudson's Bay could explain the end of the Clovis...

Reply
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:29:44 am

And furthermore...

Jason's ongoing jest about a Feathered Serpent Cult whose
members take ideas from the New World to the Old if placed
inside the Solutrean-Clovis connection is not a farce, it might
actually be reflective of the flow of trade, ideas and innovation.
His idea that the religions of 1400s + 1500s if taken back to
something ancestral is less absurd if Plato was telling us all
that an American sea empire existed 9000 years before his
time that in its disintegration transmitted a high culture to his
people. Clovis was an aesthetic style, it is in a specific time
frame, only to vanish... Solutrean may be older, but is very
similar. It is a drastic climate shift or change that sank all the
port cities of old Atlantis all over the Atlantic. I am thinking the
city Plato describes is one of the regional capitals. There is
the flood stories, and if its not Doggerland taken out by the
tsunami from the Storegga Slide or the Bosphorus opening
up onto the Black Sea, its the earlier event! The Ice Age ends!

J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 10:47:53 am

The date Plato picks has vast areas being flooded + submerged.
Mu or Lemuria is the Pacific equivalent of the Atlantis Alliance...

Donnolley + Churchward assume continents sink, not the vast
coastlines, so as to give them a new shape. Think of Florida's
basements in 50 to 70 years & how often the waterfront is to
retreat inland. Think of the rebuilding needed or the removal to
a new location of whole cities. Al Gore is not wrong on this!!!!!!!

john linehan link
2/1/2014 12:21:26 pm

And apparently you are Native American holocaust denier...

No such thing as a Solutrean "holocaust"
No such thing as a Solutrean entry into the Americas

Reply
H2 schedule
2/1/2014 04:44:51 am

Tune in next week to America Unearthed

Reply
thomas o mills
2/1/2014 05:07:43 am

A possible explanation might be found in the Hopi Creation Story. Their belief is that we were all created equal, at the same time and at the same place. I believe this place was Egypt, just my thoughts, and then placed around the planet with different guardians who taught us different languages, traits, beliefs, religions, etc, in the beginning. This might explain how the white man developed in Europe, the black man in Africa, the yellow man in Asia, and the red man in the American’s.

This story gets confusing, as the present world, or time, we live in is the fourth time that the Creator has tried to accomplish it. So in the previous worlds or times, different races might have lived in different areas. This might explain the Olmec colossal heads down in Mexico, white remains in Asia and the America’s, etc. So in my mind trying to determine who was where first, at this present time, really doesn’t matter. The question should be what caused the all four races to start over three times in our ancient past.

If you read Hapgood’s “Path of the Pole”, forward by Albert Einstein, you’ll read that the earth poles have made a transition 4 times in the last 100,000 years or 75,000 years ago, 55,000 years ago, 25,000 years ago (mentioned but not put on his chart), and 12,500 years ago.

Ice records indicate that the last time the poler ice caps melted was 12,500 years ago and there was a great flood. The Hopi believe they traveled east over a large ocean and landed on the western side of this continent and then traveled north to their present location, after a great flood. Their village of Old Oraibi is the oldest continually occupied village in the United States and they are the only tribe that has not changed their location or religion.

Reply
Only Me
2/1/2014 06:55:54 am

"The real question should be what caused all four races to start over three times in our ancient past."

That's not even a legitimate question. Every culture has its own origin/creation story. Are you going to be the one to tell the others that their stories are wrong? If you're lucky, you'll only be laughed at and dismissed.

Reply
thomas o mills
2/1/2014 08:19:47 am

No, I'm saying that all four races were taught different creation stories in the beginning, just like you said. If the white man for instance had three or four different guardians then he might have three or four stories.

I think its a very legitimate question and the Hopi version can be proven.

Only Me
2/1/2014 08:37:27 am

That is your belief.

I, and others of different faiths, believe our chosen faiths can be proven. That is the heart of the matter. No matter how you try to spin it, it comes down to you saying that everyone else is wrong.

thomas o mills
2/1/2014 08:57:08 am

I started my comment by saying it might be a possible explanation. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but thought you might be interested in a different point of view. My mistake.

J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 11:26:18 am

Anthropology has lumpers and splitters. Homo Erectus may
have been almost a global phenomenon, if you begin with
Homo Habilis at 2.5 million years ago & end up with a direct connection between the Denisovans, Peking Man and Homo Heidelbergensis or even an early Neanderthal. Our ancestors
are Early Modern Humans, formerly Cro-Magnons, some of
them went up from the Great Rift Valley and/or Egypt about
150,000 to 70,000 years ago only to interbreed with some of
the Neanderthals, begging the species or sub-species label.
Hybrid vigor is suggested, even though the genomes and
gene pools of the two species were very similar. Anthropology
has loose dividing lines. 10 million years ago Great Apes were
in abundance, between 10 to 5 million years ago, bipedalism
goes thru its evolutionary stages. TOUMAI in Chad hints at it
at about 6 to 7 million years ago. ARDI is still ape-like, then
we see LUCY at 3.2 MYA, but from 3 MYA to 2.5 MYA there is a gap. Elongating the Hopi myth is like elongating Genesis... or
even the Hawaiian Creation myth. Great Apes = 10 MYA
Bipedalism = 7 to 5 MYA increases in cranium = 3 to 0.5 MYA
and HOMO as a designation = 2.5 MYA to present. In all the
continents save Antarctica we have migrations and wanderings.
The Hopi myth is like Genesis is like the Hawaiian Creation
Myth. Science has its own hypothetical origin story that has
become more detailed over the past 50 years. We emerge
from the reign of Piltdown Man by slow degrees and be more
correct. I herald the discoveries that have yet to be, but are...

Only Me
2/1/2014 12:04:33 pm

Don't misunderstand me, Thomas. I'm willing to listen to different points of view, but you have to understand that there are inconsistencies with the Hopi Creation Story that are problematic.

For it to be a possible explanation, we have to assume that undefined "guardians" emerged from a single origin point, went among the many different people, and purposefully taught them different (possibly conflicting) beliefs, languages, etc. at the same time. Why? Was this a social experiment? How does one even teach traits? Most importantly, if the different stories of creation being taught were intentionally separate, why would these people accept the knowledge that the Hopi story is the truth? What they were taught, "in the beginning", was a lie, due to these mysterious "guardians".

This was the point of my comment. Current adherents to today's religions believe their chosen faith to be true. You were the one who went from "possible explanation" to saying "all four races were taught different creation stories in the beginning, just as you said"-though I said no such thing-and "the Hopi version can be proven".

When an explanation subsumes all other beliefs in favor of itself, it then requires suspension of those beliefs in order to be "possible".

Dave Lewis
2/1/2014 06:59:03 am

It seems to me that we have at least one person here commenting "Jason is obsessed with racism" very frequently. Perhaps it is time to start removing those comments.

Reply
Gunn
2/1/2014 07:32:19 am

I know of at least two, maybe more, although the frequency is probably far less than the blog host harping on racism. That would be a lot of work for Jason to do, and I think he did a good job of defending himself, anyway. He probably considers himself to be fair game as long as people don't over-do it. It's all quite peculiar...great for you to take the time to point it out.

Reply
Only Me
2/1/2014 08:05:42 am

The hypothesis is that, when enough false accusations persist, there may be a grain of truth in them. There may be a basis in reality to the repetitious agenda-driven allegations of race-baiting, obsession, hate-blogging, and more. Since the beginning, there has been no choice but to focus on the semantics of his word choice, on finding all the ways to use a search function to highlight the number of uses of certain key words, on the factual deconstruction of Scott Wolter's work, on his reviews of America Unearthed, and more. Clearly, this is skepticism that challenges the foundation of fringe/alternate history claims.

Reply
Gunn
2/1/2014 08:11:28 am

Yes, yes, skepticism that is challenging the foundation of weird claims...weirdness in the eye of the beholder.

Were you saluting the four winds, or looking at the possibility of harm being done somewhere, and, from which direction? More than one direction?

Only Me
2/1/2014 08:31:58 am

My statement was an attempted humorous riff based on another's proposed hypothesis.

As to harm, oh yeah, there is equal harm in promoting fringe ideas with circumstantial or conjectural evidence, or no evidence at all, and the attempt to silence or bully the skeptic that won't accept these ideas, simply at face value. History must, and should, be treated with more care and respect than that.

Gunn
2/1/2014 08:35:56 am

Somehow, I figured you'd only get a few directions, not considering them all...especially the harm that could come to a fringe speculator from an over-zealous skeptic.

Only Me
2/1/2014 08:46:23 am

But I have considered them all. That is the difference between a skeptic and a fringe speculator. If the skeptic is proven wrong, cool beans. History is rewritten to include the new knowledge gained. This doesn't always happen without turmoil, but proven fact is eventually accepted.

From what I've seen, more often than not, if the fringe speculator is proven wrong, it becomes personal. The "harm" is always inherent, when someone throws out a wild hypothesis, absent proof. If the truth is "harmful", then maybe that says more about the speculator than the "over-zealous skeptic".

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/1/2014 09:10:02 am

Ummmm …

I'M not the one who sees a racial-ist boogeyman hiding in the basement of every alternative history idea ...

Reply
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 11:45:03 am

The Human Genome Project is vindicating the idea that
there are common ancestors to us all, a "scientific Adam"
and a "scientific Eve" living in Africa. The swarthy Spaniard
hints that less swarthy skin that does not tan at all well but
technically is not albinism is a very recent adaption even
if the Neanderthals had evolved up something similar over
roughly a million years as an adaption. This has today's
Northern Europeans being a fast and recent adaption that
may very well be lesser beings than all the Neanderthals.
London was once under a glacier. Upper France was once
like the Arctic tundra. Only the Neanderthals could have
lived in Switzerland at the Ice Age's height and ruled all
they saw to the North, South , East and West of them. In
all likelihood, Gorham's cave on Gibraltar was a seaside
vacation resort for the Neanderthals. Dare I ask if all of
Kyle Bristow's friends are into their "inner Neanderthal" if
that ancient being was Hitler's superman because the very
intense level of niche adaption suggests high altitude in
tandem with a bitter cold environment if you look at the
nostrils and the lungs, and the stocky frame that keeps
body heat in? Diffusionism in and of itself is not racist,
but a genocidal agenda definitely is. Culture lets us now
thrive or survive in niches formerly lethal or almost lethal
but we may be the lesser sub-species despite our numbers.
Evolution has at its core a paradox. The ancients may have
been wiser and living more productive lives, we may be
wrong about everything, yes. We do have our knowledge.

Tara Jordan link
2/1/2014 12:32:55 pm

"The Human Genome Project is vindicating the idea that
there are common ancestors to us all, a "scientific Adam"
and a "scientific Eve" living in Africa"

Unfortunately "the common ancestor from Africa" dogma is dead.I suggest you to read Paleontologist Laurent Marivaux & anthropologist Prof Yves Coppens latest researches on the Ganlea Megacanina.
http://tinyurl.com/l2lpmvz
http://tinyurl.com/m88m4tf
http://tinyurl.com/m5d22p7

Gary
2/1/2014 12:53:20 pm

Tara, you are coming to a pretty strong conclusion that does not seem to be a consensus. This is from an article on Wikipedia:
"Because of its age, Ganlea has been called a missing link that places the origin of all anthropoids (including humans) in Asia rather than Africa as was previously thought. However, doubts have been raised towards the claim that it is the ancestor of all other anthropoids.[3] Other extinct primates such as Eosimias seem to be more basal members than Ganlea.[4] Because Ganlea is a true anthropoid, it has been seen as more likely to be a direct ancestor of monkeys and apes (and thus humans) than Darwinius would. However, the phylogenetic analysis that was conducted on it suggests that it is too derived to have been an ancestral anthropoid, and its close relation with New World monkeys seems to imply that it was not a human ancestor, as apes are believed to have evolved from Old World monkeys."

Tara Jordan link
2/1/2014 01:38:38 pm

Gary.
I think you misunderstood
This is not an issue over "common ancestry" but rather a debate over the very origins & the geo-diversity of primitive anthropoid monkeys (our common ancestors).Until recently we used to believe that these primitive anthropoid monkeys originated in Africa (only in Africa) about 45 millions years ago,but the latest discoveries have shown that the oldest remains of these primitive anthropoid monkeys are from Asia.Ganlea Megacanina (from Burma) is the ancestor of these primitive anthropoid monkeys.

If you want access to the (full) articles I posted above,contact me through Facebook,I`ll be hapy to send you the links.

J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 02:13:51 pm

Tara, the Human Genome Project & Spencer Wells have
with a certainty established a near extinction event for our
Early Modern Humans at about 150,000 to 70,000 years
ago predates the EMH + NEANDERTHAL cross that may
very well be a Cro-Magnon proper but with Neanderthal
traits. Some Africans have no Neanderthal DNA and there
are those who think an EHM + NEANDERTHAL cross to be
impossible. Which Eden, which Genesis? 7000 years ago?
70,000 B.C? 7 million years ago or even 12 to 17 MYA?
Its nice of you to bring up how Asian we are, and indeed I
want to repeat to thee how African we often are, so as to
be obvious about this to Kyle Bristow's buddies who must be
reading this thread here. I do not expect a reply by Kyle to this
and yes... Jason had no conceit when realizing how fast a
grapevine with people with net connections gets the word
back to someone being casually talked about on a blog. I
also might as well state that H.G. Wells is someone I am
distantly related to. I rather like his Victorian Era ideas due
to the way they paved the way for the modern age, even if he
often acts like his contemporaries. I think any legitimacy
that Kyle Bristow's fiction novel has is due to the way he
indirectly ripped off Robert E. Howard, and that it is totally
wrong about how the ancestors of today's Native Americans
arrived here. I feel this continent had been home to earlier
peoples for about a half million to three million years and
that some of our chromosomes might have begun as
mutations here, but these are less than those we carry
from Europe. If I had a proof positive that our earliest
ancestors of 25 million years ago were bipedal, lived in
Antartica in its forests and had hair like the Orangutans
I'd be in bliss especially if they were Aquatic Great Apes, also!
Can we rule out Antarctica of all places if we go past about
10 or 20 million years ago? I like Spencer Wells's ideas!

Tara Jordan link
2/1/2014 02:24:47 pm

JA
Personnally I think that debating with someone like Kyle Bristow is a waste of precious time.Bristow is a fiction writer with a political agenda,he doesnt care about science.Nemo Dat Quod Non Habet,

Walt
2/1/2014 03:01:11 pm

I don't think he should remove comments that critique his writing style. That's what comments are for.

I don't know if he's obsessed with racism, but he definitely uses inflammatory language. Just consider the final sentence from his article for skeptic magazine linked to in this blog, quoted below.

"Until there is physical evidence that ties the ancient Americas to Europe, there can be no justification for continuing to deny Native Americans their history, their culture, and their accomplishments."

That's not a scientific position and they aren't mutually exclusive. Jason apparently believes either Native Americans originated here and have a history, culture, and accomplishments, or they originated elsewhere and have no history, no culture, and no accomplishments. He's using inflammatory language to impose personal biases he perceives onto science. Now, if someone wants to present real evidence that they originated elsewhere, they will also have to deny Native Americans their history, culture, and accomplishments.

In reality, they have their history, culture, and accomplishments no matter where they originated.

Reply
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 01:47:02 pm

Tara, prior to the arrival of Cromagnon/EMHs... I am open to
the idea that the residents of Dminisi, Georgia are possibly
our mutual ancestors from 1.8 million years ago and some
of their descendants migrated back into Africa to give rise to
the people who raised TURKANA BOY. The idea of a steppe,
a grassland uniting vast areas of the Sahara with the Fertile
Crescent with areas of Central Asia, and migrations or trade
routes sits well with me. I humour the idea that bipedal we
are AQUATIC APES from 12 million to 7 or 5 million years ago
and that the Savannah ideas of Charles Darwin way are more
appropiate for the timeframe from four million years ago to
two million years ago in that we see Homo Habilis arrive. If
Africa and Asia alternated with a sequence of cradles for
humanity, and the importing of more evolved traits from one
continent to the other was ongoing, we need to get past the
wet, marshy Sahara of ten million years ago to the earliest
ancestor and yes, if we talk about the Orangutan split it is
inteed like flipping a coin. Heads, you are correct, tails you
are incorrect. It is so either/or because you then are in the
act of tracing specific traits back as to their source and at
that point in time you start to hear people sorta trying for a
compromise that assumes three, four or five sub-species
had their unique evolutions that conttributed traits into the
mix. You almost revitalize Madame Blavatsky and her five
"root races" as a theory before you baptism dunk us all into
Elaine Morgan's river of time that brings forth a bipedal ape
that is aquatic, then you toss a towel to Charles Darwin as he
dries us off in the hot savannah so to teach us endurance
hunting. If we then find fire and use it to cook our meals, this
is why the Tool Maker's gut of 2.5 million years ago is more
modern than ARDI's or LUCY's. All of humanity has an ancestor
that lived about 70,000 years ago. We are one species, not
many. It took a long complex evolutionary path with a myriad
of migrations to explain who we are. Some 10 million to
15 million years ago, you may be very correct... we are Asian!
Earlier than that, I think we are not bipeds. We loose our trail.

Reply
J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 01:54:43 pm

Is it some 15 million to 20 million years ago that we start
to become human as we loose our tails or is this all
either later or earlier? Easily about 10 million years ago we
had parents, yes... but also a thriving throng of Great
Ape" near kin" and this is indeed the world's worst paternity
suit. This is the type of idle conjecture that would have
delighted H.G. Wells but upset many of his contemporaries.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/3/2014 04:22:35 pm

Where DID our original "pond slime" ancestors hang out … ??? Africa … ??? Who knows … ???

Tara Jordan link
2/1/2014 02:16:22 pm

I am not saying anything (except that the "Out of Africa" scheme is not holding water any longer),I dont have the expertise (paleontology is not my field),I`m merely relaying articles & following very closely the ongoing controversy.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
2/1/2014 05:48:08 pm

Wait, am I missing something? As I understand it, Out-of-Africa theory refers specifically to the origin and subsequent diffusion of anatomically modern Homo Sapiens, not anthropoids in general; how is that model invalidated by the discovery of species that predate humans by tens of millions of years?

J.A. Dickey
2/1/2014 03:54:48 pm

To this kind quote
and the one above...

True...

and

TIS TRUE!

Reply
J.A. Dickey
2/2/2014 12:36:03 pm

i await the NEW episode of AU this Friday.
SW is about to delve into the Solutreans.
i really do hope the NEW thread is milder.
i have hopes of an intense but polite thread.

Reply
Seeker
2/1/2014 08:15:30 pm

Jason, I appreciate your viewpoint and appreciate your discussions of how racism may often exist in fringe history theories. I don't feel you're "obsessed" by this topic--you follow where the stories lead.

Instead of people questioning your motives, they may want to look more deeply at their own. Why do people get so upset by these discussions?

If the idea of AU and alternative history in general is to step out of our comfort zones and be open-minded, we need to give the origins of alternative theories--and ourselves as a species--a hard look. We may discover things that shake or disprove our treasured, accepted world views. It's much harder to do that than to shoot the messenger.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/3/2014 03:42:22 pm

I too *scratch* my head wondering why these suggested alternative possibilities are so THREATENING that they become quickly shouted down with cries (or at least, implications) of "racial-ism" … I dunno …

NOTE that the top *billing" here ISN'T "The Solutrean Hypothesis," but is "WHITE Nationalists" …

Is there REALLY a racialist "boogeyman" hiding EVERYWHERE in these questions ... ???

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/5/2014 10:25:50 am

Hello … ???

To be fair, I suppose that a devotee of H. P. Lovecraft will be positively ENAMORED of any and every "boogeymen" .. ???

Fr. Bill Bosh
2/6/2014 06:22:35 am

Hi there...!!!

Please, limit yourself to discussion of FACTS... and IDEAS... and EVIDENCE... and not "name-calling"... or *pissing*contests*.

Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:09:10 am

Jason, you need to revisit your information regarding Native Americans. The study of the Lake Baikal child, dated at 24,000 years ago, changes everything by demonstrating that all Native Americans share a Western Eurasian ancestry. But, the origin is from. The west, from Asia, not East across the Atlantic via Solutreans. You mention this European genome has not been demonstrated. It has now! Western Eurasians went east across the ice front and reached Asia where they mixed with people who then became the founding population of the Americas:

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/24000-year-old-boy-from-lake-baikal-is-scientific-sensation/

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:24:22 am

I want to add that many have felt intermixing with Europeans since the colonization period is responsible for European markers in a Native Americans. The Lake Baikal discovery means these markers came with Native Americans into the Americas. Some are saying this effectively negates the Solutrean Hypothesis, but it really does not, as certainly the Solutreans could have arrived as well. Stanford, et al are concentrating on the Delmarva Peninsula, where at least 2 dates in excess of 20,000 years have now been obtained. One date is over 26,000 years. There have now been 2 bipointed blades made of French flint found. Their case grows stronger, not weaker. But, importantly, the Eurasian genetics comes from Western Eurasia probably in the neighborhood of 30,000 years ago. So, exciting to realize that Native Americans may be in part descendent from Paleolithic hunters from Western Eurasia, as far as Germany in fact. At any rate, thought this info should be out there for your readers.

You see, Native Americans can now reply to the supremacists by saying "your ancestors mixed with our ancestors before we migrated to the Americas, so f... off!!" Lol....

Reply
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:11:25 pm

Sorry my man but the Solutrean lie never had a leg to stand on.The only ones who desperately hang on this bs are racist.Nobody takes it seriously.

Dr. David Meltzer from the Department of Anthropology at Southern Methodist University in Dallas

David Meltzer Radio Interview: Across Atlantic Ice - A Theory On Thin Ice

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/episode/2012/04/21/april-21-2012/

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:33:47 pm

It is also noteworthy that Mal'ta carried Y DNA R1* and mtDNA U* which have gone extinct.None of these haplogroups are found in any pre-columbian burials.

A.D.
2/13/2014 08:20:10 am

I've been following this since the paper came out in November of last year.I've heard it all before and what we have is another flawed model.As Eastern View has brought up some good points.I agree with many of his points.The David Reich lab has a different interpretation as his team was the one that found this ancient connection in his 2012 paper.The ancient remains only strengthen

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/ancient-clovis-genome-from-montana.html

Eastern View said...

"It seems to have become customary to refer to Mal'ta gene flow into Native Americans, since Raghavan et al. Based on what I remember from Lazaridis et al., I think the argument for that is that Mal'ta is equidistant in f4 stats to Oceanians and some southern East Asians, so therefore Mal'ta can't be admixed with Native Americans because then it should be closer to East Asians then to Oceanians, so it has to be Mal'ta admixing into Native Americans.

For those who don't bother to read the papers, the above is the only "prove" these scientists have for assuming Native American admixture, and then proceed to generate models and numbers to support that assumption. And then these "generated data" are used by armchair scientists to support Native American admixture, creating a self-reinforcing loop.

I really hope the standards for prove will be raised to the level of other disciplines, considering the political implications for Native Americans. Even anthropologically related fields such as linguistics, archaeology, sociology, ethnology has higher standards of proof.

As for why Mal'ta is equidistant to Oceans and southern East Asians, it isn't. It is slightly closer to southern East Asians (not to mention it's problematic not to use northern East Asians and Siberians). And even if it is equidistant, there could be any number of reason why that is so.. that the paleo-Siberian portion of Mal'ta was intermediate between Ancestral South Asians and East Asians, that paleo-Americans were too drifted one way and normal drift is much closer to the Asian-Oceanian rate.

Also disturbing is how Mal'ta has become the standard paleo-Siebrian, when for decades archaeologists have already noted the admixed nature of Mal'ta Culture, with intrusive European Gravettian and Central Asian cultural motifs and lithics into Siberia, which already had 20,000 years of Upper Paleolithic prior to the arrival of Mal'ta."

Months ago Eske Wilerslev stated regarding the Mal'ta remains that "principally these west eurasians could have mixed with native americans in the new world".This opened yet another can of worms for racist tor take advantage.But now the Anzick paper disproves that.The "west eurasians" into Native Americans is Raghavan's own interpretation using a flawed model.Lets see how long it will hold up as Neves and Owsley own theories of "ainu" and "african/melanesian" paleoindnians lasted.

Certainly you are ones who are still hanging on to the idea of "caucasoids" in ancient america.All these studies disproves those lies.The paleoindians in North and South America ARE Native Americans and ancestors of todays Natives and not some "wandering caucasoids" who were replace by "invading injuns from asia".Kennewick and others are native americans and will be proven though it already has but people haven't still caught the message and want to hang on to old racist ideas.So the lies are coming to an end.Walter Neves' theory was debunked some time ago.Owsley has been debunked.

A.D.
2/13/2014 08:25:16 am

"It took 20 years for some in the scientific community to accept the Monte Verde date. It took 15 years for the Amerindian component in West Eurasians to even be mentioned.

It took one month to accept as fact; that Amerindians are hybrids, with a high West Eurasian admixture component, in spite of the fact there has never been any scientific evidence of ancient West Eurasian admixture in Amerindian."

"Controversial DNA results of the testing of the remains at the Windover site in Florida found that the populations resembled South American populations more than North American populations. This also tended to confirm the long-held suspicions of linguists that the poorly attested language of the Ais tribe of eastern Florida may have been Awakan. (BTW - This study shows the perils of ADNA research in the US: the researcher's remarks that the Windover population was unlike contemporary native populations of the US was taken out of context by the racist right element and misrepresented as supporting their claim that an extinct 'ancient white race' had preceded the current Native American population.)"

A.D.
2/13/2014 08:39:34 am

I've actually read the whole paper and supplement material and been following this for months.Mal'ta is an admixed individual not the other around. At K9 the admixture run shows the Mal'ta sample to have 5 ancestral components and appears mostly South Asian (37%), European (34%), Amerindian (26%), and a minor Oceanian ancestry (4%).

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2810/hhx4.png


There is no "gene flow" of Mal'ta into Karitiana as Karitiana are pure ORANGE throughout the admixture run.

"At K = 9, MA-1 is composed of five genetic components of which the two major ones make up ca. 70% of the total. The most prominent component is shown in green and is otherwise prevalent in South Asia but does also appear in the Caucasus, Near East or even Europe. The other major genetic component (dark blue) in MA-1 is the one dominant in contemporary European populations, especially among northern and northeastern Europeans. The co-presence of the European-blue and South Asian green in MA-1 can be interpreted as admixture of the two in MA-1 or, alternatively, MA-1 could represent a proto-western Eurasian prior to the split of Europeans and South Asians. This analysis cannot differentiate between these two scenarios. Most of the remaining nearly one third of the MA-1 genome is comprised of the two genetic components that make up the Native American gene pool (orange and light pink). Importantly, MA-1 completely lacks the genetic components prevalent in extant East Asians and Siberians (shown in dark and light yellow, respectively)."

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/first-genome-of-upper-paleolithic-human.html

http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-malta-and-afontova-gora-a-full-account/

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-upper-paleolithic-lake.html

A.D.
2/13/2014 08:48:56 am

I meant my first post to be longer so here goes

*The David Reich lab has a different interpretation as his team was the one that found this ancient connection in his 2012 paper.The ancient remains only strengthens this ancient connection but what has happened is they have used a flawed model from the beginning so you will continue to hear this repeated claim.*

I looked around the net in anthro forums too see how people were taking this.Of course lots of eurocentric bias minded people were to be found but this was my fav statement by a poster:

"Since Lazaridis's whole model is chosen through his own interpretation of FST distances, I'm pretty sure Lazaridis's tree doesn't work once we expand the range of populations to be considered. For example, Australasians seem to be closer to "West Eurasians" than Onge is. Soon once we get to Papuan-Melanesians, the tree fails. The tree fails once we take in Tianyuan, for that matter.

But that doesn't stop people from finding all sorts of rationale to continue on.

I find it yet another tragedy in Native American circumstances, when they've been retroactively appropriated, yet again (Kennewick Man, Solutrean) through very speculative proto-historical speculation without careful accounting of the details. What I meant was that Basal Eurasian and ANE(Ancient Northern Eurasian) were created because of only considering the Onge and Karitiana relative to various European populations. Once you get beyond Onge to Papauns and Melanesians, the tree once again does not fit the data and it becomes non-sensical unless ANE hopped over East Asians and admixed with Papuans. (I've actually heard terryt argue for this somewhere.)

In his own words, Lazaridis CHOSE for Mal'ta to be unadmixed. A simpler scenario would've been that it was:
1) admixed, 2) a eastern component of this admixture was sharing the same heritage with ancient South Asians, Papuans and yet on their way into developing into East Asians and Amerinds. This would also explain why there is a Papuan component in the Mal'ta sample.

This model probably fits all the data better and also gets rid of the need for ANE and Basal Eurasian. Simpler models that explain all data is ALWAYS better than complicated models that explain part of the data."

Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 11:50:53 am

A.D., a friend explained it this way:

"The conclusions of Willerslev and his co-workers have to be read in conjunction with their other published findings.

They previously reported the genome sequence for the individual known as “MA-1” (also known as “Mal’ta Boy”), which now provides an interesting comparison to the Clovis child. Mal’ta Boy (from South Siberia) dates to around 24,000 years ago but shows no genetic affinity to modern populations in that region. His genome indicates that he was related to modern-day western Eurasians which in turn indicates that prehistoric populations of that area occupied a wider geographical range into northeast Eurasia than they do today. There is a definite gene flow event from that individual’s genome into the Native American population which explains between 14-38% of their ancestry. The remainder of Native American ancestry derives from true East Asian populations (to which Ma’lta Boy did not belong in a genetic sense). That is, there’s a distinction to be made between where people were living and where they originally came from.

The conclusion is that two distinct Old World populations led to the formation of the First American gene pool: one related to modern-day East Asians, and the other a Siberian Upper Palaeolithic population genetically related to modern-day western Eurasians. But the direction of the flow is from the Siberian vicinity.

[Just to clear up any geographical confusion and help folks get their minds round this, Siberia is in Asia. It occupies most of Northern Asia and its eastern-most extremity (the Chukchi Peninsula) has the Bering Strait to its east, separating it from Alaska. Asia and Europe are not separate continents (except in the heads of politicians). They are a single land mass plus islands, covering everything from Ireland at the extreme west, through Russia in the north, Indonesia in the south and across to China and Japan in the east.]

There is further support for Willerslev's conclusions from the genome sequence of 17,000 year old DNA from the south-central Siberian Afontova Gora-2 site. The genome demonstrates a similar signature to Mal’ta Boy and has close affinities to modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but no affinities to present-day East Asians. There is a demonstrable genetic continuity in south-central Siberia throughout the Late Glacial Maxim and these people would have been well-placed to take advantage of any opportunities to cross the Bering land bridge if they had a mind to.

The genetic continuity in Siberia, dating back to considerably more than 24,000 years ago doesn’t sit well with dates for the Solutrean culture which existed only in Europe between 17,000 – 22,000 years ago as far as we know.

As Willerslev has said, the findings are significant at two levels. Firstly, the “Upper Palaeolithic Siberians came from a cosmopolitan population of early modern humans that spread out of Africa to Europe and Central and South Asia.” Secondly “Palaeoindian skeletons with phenotype traits atypical of modern-day Native Americans can be explained as having a direct historical connection to Upper Palaeolithic Siberia.” The implications are that one portion of the dual ancestry characterising Native Americans is at least 10,000 years older than the timeframe for humans crossing the Bering Strait around 14,000 years ago… but those earlier people still came via that route. There was more than one period during which a crossing was possible and what Willerslev is suggesting (what his evidence shows) is that the first wave of people made that crossing in a much earlier period and that there was more than one migration."

Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 12:05:14 pm

This is what saddens me. What has to be has to be, but I would not be upset if a 6,000 year old Irish bog man that was my ancestor was studied.

"While conducting research, senior study author Eske Willerslev, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Copenhagen, met with a number of Native American tribes in Montana to discuss the research. He said scientists and Native American groups haven't always gotten along well, so he wasn't sure what to expect at first.
"They showed a lot of interest in the study, but all of them said that now is the time for the skeleton to go back into the ground," Willerslev told a documentary film crew. "This was a heart blow, because being a scientist, reburying probably the most important skeleton in the history of the Americas, it's hard."
But Willerslev said it was a sacrifice that science had to make.
"I realized that if scientists and Native Americans want to pursue their past together, there needs to be compromises on both sides. Therefore, we need to respect that they feel very strongly about this issue."

A.D.
2/13/2014 04:55:12 pm

Damn guy I've read everything about that crap.You're just repeating what I've read already and aren't adding anything that supports what you still claim.Are you confused and believe that there was a "caucasoid" population that came here "first" but this time came from Siberia? A "Lost white tribe of Siberia"?
I know this is what you are trying to inject.Mal'ta is an admixed individual full stop.That is what their data shows

If Native Americans were mixed the Karitiana,who they state in their paper is closest to Mal'ta than to any modern West-Eurasian population, would NOT be PURE ORANGE in their admixture runs.It would have yellow(east asian) and blue(european) and or green(south asian)components but they don't

Mal'ta is admixed with Amerindian components not the other way around represented by PINK and ORANGE, and lets not forget the PURPLE(Papuan) component it carries also.Look at their data see where their graph shows that Mal'ta clusters in "no mans land" between NAtive Americans and Europeans.

"There is a definite gene flow event from that individual’s genome into the Native American population which explains between 14-38% of their ancestry. The remainder of Native American ancestry derives from true East Asian populations (to which Ma’lta Boy did not belong in a genetic sense). That is, there’s a distinction to be made between where people were living and where they originally came from"

"14-38% of their ancestry. The remainder of Native American ancestry derives from true East Asian "


And here is what you don't get if you actually read the actual paper and looked at their data.If what they're claiming is true,and this is the elephant in the room,their admixture runs from K3 to K9 would show Karitiana to have dark/light yellow(east asian) and dark blue(european) components.Yet the Karitiana stays orange(amerindian) in their admixture run.So where is this massive "east asian" in NAtive Americans represented by dark and light yellow in their runs?There is none.Native American components are represented by Pink and Orange.



Native Americans came in one or more waves from Beringia.This is what the current evidence shows from all field of anthropology.


"The implications are that one portion of the dual ancestry characterising Native Americans is at least 10,000 years older than the timeframe for humans crossing the Bering Strait around 14,000 years ago… but those earlier people still came via that route."

None of these first migrations were "european" or "caucasoids" or any of that crap and are you aware that the Aleut-Eskimo and Na-dene are from later arrivals?I'm not here to give you a lecture on all the current evidence.

A "Beringian standstill" is what they call it.This is where the "First Americans" were before taking the coastal and ice sheets corridor interior route Please brush up on all the genetic studies they have done on Native Americans in mtDNA,Y-Chromosomes,and Autosomal.When I first read that mess it was another "here we go again everyone except the injuns.Still trying to put whites here first" moment because of the autosomal study of native americans I had previously read by Wang et al 2007.

A.D.
2/13/2014 05:09:59 pm

"There is further support for Willerslev's conclusions from the genome sequence of 17,000 year old DNA from the south-central Siberian Afontova Gora-2 site. The genome demonstrates a similar signature to Mal’ta Boy and has close affinities to modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but no affinities to present-day East Asians. There is a demonstrable genetic continuity in south-central Siberia throughout the Late Glacial Maxim and these people would have been well-placed to take advantage of any opportunities to cross the Bering land bridge if they had a mind to."

And here I see how you are still hinting of "caucasoids" and "west-eurasians" trekking into Beringian first.And I can remember the news headlines from this study months ago saying "first americans were europeans"and "native americans are mix of western europeans and east asians".How do you think the public reacts to this false info?The latter was an erroneous error from the ny times as they mistaken west-eurasians the same as "west europeans".It is not and is a broad term for North Africas,Near Eastern/West Asian,South Asians,and Europeans.

Here is an example of the reaction I saw when some idiots mistook what the raghavan study implied and the effects the media created blasting it all over with misleading headlines.This was a comment directed to me.

"wake up we have this thing called DNA .native americans are white European and asians and whites were in america before they were. the olderst human remains in america are WHITE"

Trust me I have heard it all before.White Ainu claims being here first,White Tocharians coming here.Solutreans,red haired mummies,Giants,etc etc.This one nutjob I've argued with is obsessed with proving the Ainu are white caucasoid when all the damn evidence including Jomon dna(who ainu only PARTIALLY descend from) prove Ainu to have no relationship to any west eurasians whatsoever.The guy claimed that the ainu/jomon were "white caucasoid" and not "mongoloid" and kennewick was related to them. "Native Americans say they are the first in America they are not they came later and paleoindians in north america who are NOT mongoloid proves this.They are caucasoid not mongoloid" and "White Europeans were first in East Asia and Kennewick is directly related to them" he said.

So in the minds of many Native Americans just popped out of nowhere.Maybe aliens brought them here?

The wacky ideas from crazy claimants are never ending....

Sorry I'm not buying what raghavan is selling and see this as some scientist trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.Their own model shows it's flawed.Back to the drawing board.lol
Standford is stil hanging on to his solutrean garbage to this day.Walter Neves went back to his "negroid-australoid" paleoindian for a while and Owsley is still stubborn.



“Palaeoindian skeletons with phenotype traits atypical of modern-day Native Americans can be explained as having a direct historical connection to Upper Palaeolithic Siberia.”


What they need is more ancient Siberian samples for comparisons.Remember they are still speculating where in "asia" Native Americans came from.

Afontova Gora-2 and Mal'ta are isolated cases and are from West of Lake Baikal.Christy Turner, a dental anthropolgist, put the ancestors of Native Americans East of Lake Baikal.That raghavan paper also states that Turner's assessment in the 80's of mal'ta being closer to upper paleolithic europeans and not to the "mongoloid" dentition (as was one russian anthropologist previous observation on the remains dentition.) was correct.

BBC Horizon The First Americans (1 of 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3xaUUNUvps



“Palaeoindian skeletons with phenotype traits atypical of modern-day Native Americans can be explained as having a direct historical connection to Upper Palaeolithic Siberia.”

This doesn't prove that paleonindians are "caucasoids" or of a different population they ARE native americans and ancestors of todays native american.They are the same people.If they carry the same genetics as modern native americans how the hell can they be a different people.Only genetic drift,bottle neck,environment effects,etc can explain the different changes over time.Native people moved around a lot in the americas.And the Atui study shows that there are still natives like the botocudos who are in all form "paleoindian" in their cranial metrics

Chris Kortright - The Question of Kennewick
Man: re-writing colonization

"In reference to both Spirit Cave and Kennewick Man’s
skulls they say, 'there are no close resemblances to modern Native Americans.'

They are in fact arguing, then, that no morphological changes could have occurred with in 9,000 or 10,000 years; this means that biology is static, and thus evolution is not valid when applied to Indian people. As David Hurst Thomas states in Skull Wars:

'In North American Indian populations (and, indeed, human populations worldwide), there has

A.D.
2/13/2014 05:16:31 pm

Chris Kortright - The Question of Kennewick
Man: re-writing colonization


"In reference to both Spirit Cave and Kennewick Man’s
skulls they say, 'there are no close resemblances to modern Native Americans.'

They are in fact arguing, then, that no morphological changes could have occurred with in 9,000 or 10,000 years; this means that biology is static, and thus evolution is not valid when applied to Indian people. As David Hurst Thomas states in Skull Wars:

'In North American Indian populations (and, indeed, human populations worldwide), there has been a distinct tendency for skulls to become more globular (“rounder”) and less robust over the last 10,000 years. This being so, no experienced physical anthropologist should be surprised that the Kennewick skull has a longer, more robust face than recent Native Americans . . .
Although forensic anthropologists can often produce spectacular results in separating modern “races,” this success requires very specialized assumptions that are wholly inappropriate when projected into the deep past. (Thomas,2000:116)'

So like their culture, Indian biology is static and not open to change like the rest of humanity."


I like to point out that Luzia ,the paleoindian skull from Brazil, also is dolichocephalic.

Recent Inuit, it should be also be noted, are long-headed, unlike the Asian Mongoloids they superficially resemble (Szathmary 1984).

Normandie Kent
10/4/2017 04:22:00 pm

Except those Solutreans or West Eurasians would not be the ancestors of the Modern European or Americans. But would be a small subset of the West Eurasian gene pool. along with a small subset of Ancient Eastern Eurasian that would be the sole ancestors of the Native American race. Modern European would be descendants of the people who never left. Native Americans last common ancestors with Asia and Europe would be around 35-40 thousand years ago. The European Solutreans that stayed put in Europe were Landlubbers and mammoth hunters who never left the continent until 500 years ago. there is also a big possibility that the Solutreans that stayed in Europe were genocided by the magdalenians 17,000 years ago, and those would be partial ancestors to modern Europeans, so the Native Americans would be the closest genetically living descendants of the Solutreans in the world. who were again genocided by the descendants of the Magdalenians in the Americas once again by the incoming hordes of Magdalenian descendants 500 years ago. Why would Native Americans tell modern Europeans that they mixed with their ancestors, when they didn't .

A.D.
2/6/2014 02:53:59 pm

Mal'ta-Buret culture has nothing to do with Native American precursor techno-complexes.Mal'ta and Afontova Gora are isolated cases.And its contradicting from the archaeological record that shows mal'ta to be late gravettian with central asian characteristics.So it can't be "basal" to any population.Let anything to do with Native American origins at all.

I read the Raghavan paper and it looks like the Mal'ta child was an admixed individual and has nothing to do with Native Americans at all.The only reason it has been blasted all over the media is because it is the oldest human genome sequenced to date.The admixture run showed that it carries 5 different components as : European(dark blue),South Asian (Green), Amerindian and Beringian/Siberian (Orange and Pink) and Purple (Papuan/Oceanian). And it lacked any light and dark yellow East Asian.

It clustered in "no mans land". right in the middle between Europeans and Native Americans


In the the paper they state that the Karitiana ,a South American Brazilian tribe are the closest to Mal'ta than to any living modern west eurasian population.Yet the Karitiana are pure ORANGE throughout the admixture run.So I don't understand where they got that native americans are "a mix of west-eurasian and east asians" and that they are "14%-38% west eurasian".They made it up and are working with flawed models.

Mal'ta was part Amerindian and the rest west eurasian.Malt'a is admixed bot the other way around.

Karitiana and other North and South Americans,excluding Aleut/Eskimo,and Na Dene who are from a later migration, are representatives of this "First American" component.And it is this exact "first american" component ,represented by orange,that is found in mal'ta

"Orange" must be some sort of New World component and it is found all over west eurasia and even in the beduins in North Africa(North Africans being a back migration into Africa from outside of Africa).David Reich picked this up in his 2012 paper.But it looks like some of these guys don't like the idea of a back migration and that europeans might have an "injun" in the closet.They want to make it the other way around and recently Lazaridis et al has showed that modern Europeans are a 3 way mixture of "Early European farmers" , "West European Hunter-Gatherers" and this "Ancient North Eurasian" represented by Mal'ta which has this slice of "Amerindian" component.So it looks like this signature has been diluted with the mixture with other frequent "west eurasians" what have you.

Their own data contradict their proposals.

No proof that Native Americans are mixed of "asian and europeans" No proof that "europeans were the first americans" as those bullshit misleading headlines implied months ago.lol.what a load that was

Sorry but the soul train lie has been given a fatal blow now.Only racist hang on to that crap.Academia has moved on and now to another failed scam it seems.The shenanigans are never ending.

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:47:23 am

A.D. Regarding Solutrean never having a leg to stand on, do you feel the presentations at the PaleoAmerican Odyssey Conference weakened their case? Do you have a copy of the proceedings? The first French flint could be interpreted as something brought over by a colonist, highly improbable as that might be, but what of the second biface made of flint originating in France. Yes,of course Meltzer has been a critic from day one. But what of the new evidence and dates?

Oh, wait a sec, I just now saw your other comments. I get it. I know who I'm talking to now, and won't bother in the future.

Folks, read up on the Lake Baikal studies. A.D. Is essentially clueless and his bias is his own. I don't even want to know where he is coming from. Lol......

Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 01:33:54 am

By now you are probably aware of the genome sequencing of the Montana child found buried with Clovis artifacts.

"The conclusion is that two distinct Old World populations led to the formation of the First American gene pool: one related to modern-day East Asians, and the other a Siberian Upper Palaeolithic population genetically related to modern-day western Eurasians. But the direction of the flow is from the Siberian vicinity."

So, you see, Native Americans do indeed share a Western Eurasian genetic component. I believe you are very mistaken if you think you can just toss out these three studies which clearly demonstrate some Native American ancestry includes Upper Paleolithic hunters from Europe. This is a fact now, not racist speculation. We will not be prevented from learning the truth regarding the peopling of the Americas simply because some can't handle the facts.

Charlie Devine
2/13/2014 02:53:15 am

A.D., from the abstract of the just published genome study of the Montana Clovis child burial:

"" We sequenced the genome to an average depth of 14.4× and show that the gene flow from the Siberian Upper Palaeolithic Mal’ta population5 into Native American ancestors is also shared by the Anzick-1 individual and thus happened before 12,600 years BP."

This is revealing and I don't think we can justifiably say that Native Americans do not share a certain percentage of Western Eurasian ancestry as a result of these 3 studies, the 2 remains from Siberia, at 24,000 years and 17,000 years, and now this Montana child showing the same ancestry, and at 12,600 Years. Just my opinion, but I don't think this should be seen as an upsetting result by today's Native Americans. Why should the truth be such an impediment; why should this truth be so abhorrent to Native Americans? It only suggests that Native Americans and some Western Eurasians are related. Is that really so horrifying??

Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:05:54 am

No, for heaven's sake, I'm NOT looking for a "lost white Siberian"! You say you KNOW I am trying to do that. Buffalo Biscuits!! No, I am not. You are the one who is calling me a racist by insisting that I am looking for some way to get white people into the Americas at the same time or earlier then Native Americans. What is the matter with you?? None of your objections has appeared in the literature yet, has it? I can wait for the answer to shake itself out. Why do you insist on giving me motives that don't exist. You do not know me at all and I do not know you at all. Lay off judging me because all you are doing when you do that is display your bitterness and anger toward white people. How dare you make a racist out of me just because I might support a theory different then yours. I am not a geneticist and if your point was to point that fact out, you did. And I respect your point of view. OK? I have been reading, and at times joining the conversation, on websites discussing this. I am looking forward to seeing how these 2 findings(Mal'ta and Montana) affect knowledge of the peopling of the Americas. You have demonstrated it is far more complex then the headlines implied, so thanks for that. But, there is a political component that is not originating from me. That I know. I am not looking for lost white Siberians. You do not know me, so please stop pretending that you do. We will see how this resolves in time I'm sure.

Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:23:36 am

I think this will be my last, A.D. You've raised plenty of doubts in my mind. When I see the Mal'ta conclusions completely overturned, I will remember I heard it here first, even though I'll never know who educated me. You have definitely raised enough doubts and I am not qualified to debate your objections. That does not mean I have to say "uncle" to you because I do not know what the answer will be. I really need to see your points proven somewhere other then this blog comment section. You've certainly convinced me it can be questioned, but to what degree you are correct, and to what degree the conclusions of the Mal'ta study are correct(and therefore making you wrong), I can't say. But do you know your stuff? Sure seems like it to me. I left an explanation a friend provided. He is completely fluent in the subject and in genetics, so what can I say, best I could do. I think I would profit more if you and he debated the point. That is what we all need if these Mal'ta findings are as screwed up as you suggest. So, relax, I just want the truth of prehistory. I don't have any racist or supremacist axes to grind at all.

Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:42:16 am

Guess I'm still trying to clarify. I am not in a position to judge your points, A.D. against those points raised in the Mal'ta study and draw a conclusion based on my own vast knowledge. There is no vast knowledge. So I can only hope the truth becomes clarified as time goes by. I expect if you are correct that that will eventually be clearly apparent. No? Until then, I don't see a racist agenda behind the "peopling of the Americas" debate. At least not among good people.
I suspect my friend, whose words a I posted above, is correct, and that you are incorrect. I suspect that the Western Eurasian component is there. But if it becomes clear you were right all along, I know I will recognize when that has happened. I will live long enough to see the Mal'ta conclusions thrown out as laughable, or a I won't live to see that. Hopefully.

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/14/2014 12:44:37 am

Anyway, again … The necessary attention in these questions ought to be on the POPULATION of a given time and particular place -- NOT on one to even two INDIVIDUALS who appear to be (and perhaps ARE) *different* …

When, say, Marco Polo reportedly visited China in the 13th century and stayed there for an extended time, he was indeed a Caucasian person living in a SEA of Asian people … So what … ??? But WERE there -- might there have been -- cultural influences mutually exchanged … ??? Why not … ???

Historian
9/20/2014 04:03:14 am

OK, A.D., here is the latest DNA study which proves conclusively that you were absolutely wrong. There is indeed a genetic relationship between Europeans and Native Americans. Undeniable, and you were/are flat out wrong in your claims:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-09/hms-nba091514.php

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:03:23 pm

"Refuting the technological cornerstone of the Ice-Age Atlantic crossing hypothesis" Eren et al 2013
Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 40, Issue 7, July 2013, Pages 2934--2941

"On Thin Ice: Problems with Stanford and Bradley's Solutrean-Clovis Hypothesis." Antiquity. O'Brien, M., M. Boulanger, M. Collard, B. Buchanan, L. Tarle, M.I. Eren et al 2014


I just got an email response from Dr. Meltzer who's a co-author of the upcoming Anzick paper which is the DNA of an Clovis skeletal remains of the archaeological site in Montana.Said I would like the results.Anyway here is more stuff that debunks all the racist lies.

As someone at a history forum pointed out about pseudoscience and pseudo history:

"What supporters of fringe history and cult archaeology do is selectively quote here and there from historical texts and scholarship from relevant field of study, and then they weave these tidbits together into a seemingly plausible historical claim about "blank" visiting the Americas before Columbus in 1492. The problem though, is when you start investigating the evidence presented in detail, the façade of plausibility falls away. Much of the evidence turns out be highly debatable, dubious, misrepresented, or was never there to begin. What little real evidence that remains tends to be highly open to interpretation, with the more accepted interpretation(s) not lending support to whatever fringe historical claim is being postulated by said proponents of said claim."

Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups of Paleoamericans in North America" Smith et al (2005)

"Some studies of craniofacial traits of late-Pleistocene and early-Holocene human remains from the Americas have cited the presence of traits uncharacteristic of modern Native Americans as evidence for a separate migration to the New World whose source was outside Siberia".

To test this hypothesis, we attempted to extract mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) for genetic analysis from some of the earliest known human remains from the New World. The remains from only one of twenty sites represented by these remains yielded DNA for analysis."

Together with previously reported studies, late-Pleistocene/early-Holocene remains provide evidence for three of the five haplogroups (haplogroups B, C and D) present in modern Native Americans approximately 10,000 years ago, notably excluding both the most common haplogroup in modern Native Americans (haplogroup A) and all other haplogroups absent in modern Native American populations"

These results provide no support for hypotheses of more than a single migration to the New World, the one that brought the ancestors of all extant Native Americans to the New World, followed by a late population expansion in Beringia".

Site at Hourglass Cave, CO Age (RCYBP) - 8000 belongs to haplogroup B (Stone and Stoneking 1996)

Site at Wizards Beach, NV Age (RCYBP) - 9200 belongs to haplogroup C (Kaestle 1998; Kaestle and Smith 2001)

Site at On-Your-Knees Cave, AK Age (RCYBP) - 9740 belongs to haplogroup D (Dixon et al. 1997)


Genetic analysis of early holocene skeletal remains from alaska and its
implications for the settlement of the americas. Kemp et al 2007 Am J Phys Anthropol 132:605–621.

"An ancient individual dating to 10,300 years before present (BP) from On
Your Knees Cave on Prince of Wales Island in Southeast Alaska
was analyzed for nearly the entire control region of the
mitochondrial genome plus diagnostic sites of the coding region of
the mitochondrial genome that assisted in the determination of his
mitochondrial genome belonging to sub-haplogroup D4h3a [23].
DNA was extremely well preserved in the molars of this individual,
permitting sex identification as male and determination that he
belongs to the Q1a3a1a branch of the human Y-chromosome tree."

The Big Bar Lake Burial: Middle Period Human Remains from the Canadian
Plateau. Cybulski JS et al 2007

"Haplogroup A was determined for an individual uncovered at Big Bar Lake, British
Columbia with a radiocarbon date of 4975+/240 years BP"

DNA from Pre-Clovis Human Coprolites in Oregon, North America Gilbert et al 2008

"The timing of the first human migration into the
Americas and its relation to the appearance of the Clovis
technological complex in North America ca. 11-10.8
thousand radiocarbon years before present (14C ka B.P.)
remains contentious. We establish that humans were
present at Paisley 5 Mile Point Caves, south-central
Oregon, by 12,300 14C yr. B.P., through recovery of
human mtDNA from coprolites, directly dated by
accelerator mass spectrometry. The mtDNA corresponds
to Native American founding haplogroups A2 and B2.
The dates of the coprolites are >1000 14C years earlier
than currently accepted dates for the Clovis-complex".

An alternative view of the peopling of South America:
Lagoa Santa in craniometric perspective Seguchi and Brace et al 2010


"In this study, we compare the craniofacial morphology of four Sumidouro skulls and one Lu

Reply
A.D.
2/6/2014 03:26:07 pm

An alternative view of the peopling of South America:
Lagoa Santa in craniometric perspective Seguchi and Brace et al 2010


"In this study, we compare the craniofacial morphology of four Sumidouro skulls and one Lund skull of paleo South Americans from Lagoa Santa, Brazil, with worldwide prehistoric and recent human craniofacial metric data, and suggest an alternative view of the migration history of early South America. Affiliations of samples and individuals were examined by the principal coordinate plot generated by Relethford and Blangero’s R-matrix method, the neighbor-joining method based on genetic
distance generated from the same R-matrix, and Mahalanobis distances and typicality probabilities.

For these analyses, we examined certain variables claimed to have been influenced by the environment, such as maximum cranial length and maximum cranial breadth. Although the number of craniometric variables seems to influence the results of the analysis, it appeared to not obscure the ancestral and descendant relationships and regional kin relationships greatly in the instance of this study.

Using Howells’ worldwide comparative dataset but without the Jomon sample, previous research had suggested that Brazilian Paleoamericans, the Lagoa Santa, were probably closely related to Australian Aborigines and Africans as opposed to Native Americans and Northeast Asians. On the other hand, using
multivariate statistics, our results show that Lagoa Santa individuals exhibit stronger morphological affinities with the prehistoric Jomon of Japan, archaic Americans of Indian Knoll Kentucky, Windover Florida, and Tennessee, and recent Tierra del Fuegans of South America, than with the Melanesians and Australians. Moreover, Jomon, Lagoa Santa, and archaic North Americans all display close relationships
and ties to each other.

This suggests that the early inhabitants of South America were probably not related to Australo-Melanesians, but rather to the Late Pleistocene descendants of Northeast Asians such as the Jomon. Also, they are related to the archaic North American populations and recent Central and South Americans."

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:27:46 pm

MORPHOMETRIC AND mtDNA ANALYSES
OF ARCHAIC SKELETAL REMAINS FROM
SOUTHWESTERN SOUTH AMERICA Manriquez et al 2011

"In this article skeletal remains dated 9000-4000 BP, excavated from archaeological sites in northern, central
and southern Chile, were analyzed using geometric morphometric and ancient mtDNA techniques. Results indicate that the ancient
cranial material from southwestern South America exhibit a wide range of cranial vault shape variation which is independent of
chronology. mtDNA restriction and sequence analysis performed on the same skeletal remains, revealed only the presence of the main four founding mtDNA haplogroups (A, B, C and D) as early as 9,000 BP."


"Our results using morphometric and molecular
mtDNA haplogroup data show that human populations inhabiting the Americas during archaic times can not be considered as belonging to two different groups on the basis of analyzed data. These results are consistent with those recently obtained using complete sequence mtDNA analyses."

"Ancient mtDNA was extracted from 55 samples
of skeletal remains belonging to 48 individuals.
Positive results obtained from 30 of our sample are
shown in Table 3. Bone fragments (11 samples from
6 individuals) were obtained from Quebrada de Acha
(Muñoz et al. 1993). Three of these samples are dated
7,570 ± 40, BP 8,970 ± 255 BP, and 8,120 ± 90 BP.
In addition, 18 samples from 17 individuals from the
archaic site of Camarones 14 dated between 7,360 BP
and 6,880 BP (Schiappacasse and Niemeyer 1984)
were included. Furthermore, skeletal fragments
(22 samples from 21 individuals) exhumed in Cuchipuy
were analyzed. There are several radiocarbon dates
for this site spanning a long time interval between
11,380 BP and 6,130 BP (Kaltwasser et al. 1984). The
skeletal remains were dated between 8,070 BP and
6,105 BP (Kaltwasser et al. 1984). Finally, skeletal
remains from four individuals exhumed in southern
Chile at the site of Baño Nuevo-1, provided ancient
mtDNA. Individual 1 (neonate, unknown sex) was
dated 8,950 ± 50 BP, individual 2 (20-25 male) was
dated 8,850 ± 50 BP, individual 3 (40-45 female) was
dated 8,950 ± 60 BP, and finally individual 4 (neonate,
unknown sex) 8,945 ± 40 BP (Mena et al. 2003). For
comparative purposes a sample of the Morro 1/ 1-6
site located in the Azapa valley dated 4,000 BP was
also included (Moraga et al. 2005)."

"The skeletal remains examined in this study
were exhumed in Quebrada de Acha, Quebrada
de Camarones, Cuchipuy, Santa Amelia and Baño
Nuevo, and are among the most ancient exhumed in
South America (Table 1). Given the absence of more
skeletal remains from these or other ancient sites,
it is plausible to accept that this group of samples
is representative of the first colonizers arriving in
southwestern South America using a coastal route,
or through the Andean highlands."

On the basis of a standard craniometrical
analysis of Brazilian Lagoa Santa samples, including
a comparison with late prehistoric and modern
Amerindian material, it has been suggested that
cranial variation in the Americas reveals two different
patterns termed Paleoamerican and Amerindian, and
that both patterns could be traced back to separate
migrations originated at different geographic
locations and time points (Neves and Hubbe 2005).
Our craniometric results do not reveal the presence
of two separate morphological patterns related to
chronology and /or geography such as in Brazil, but a
wide range of cranial variation which is independent
from both chronology and geography (Figure 2).
Thus, the early archaic samples are centrally located
and tightly clustered, exhibiting limited variation
particularly along the y-axis. Middle archaic samples
are also centrally located but widely distributed
in both dimensions, whereas late archaic samples
lack diversity along the x-axis, but are still about
as variable as the middle archaic samples, with the
difference that they are restricted to the negative
x-axis. Although this pattern may be interpreted
as a bottleneck before the middle archaic period,
followed by a population expansion, the statistical
results failed to show a significant association"

Similarly to previous studies of prehistoric
populations (Carlyle et al. 2000; Kaestle and Smith
2001; Parr et al. 1996; Stone and Stoneking 1996,
1998) ancient mtDNA restriction and sequence
analysis revealed the presence of classical mtDNA
founding lineages. As early as 9,000 BP, the
four founding haplogroups were present and no
haplogroups different to the Amerindian ones have
been described. These results support the one-way
migration hypothesis which recently has been also
positively contrasted using complete sequences of
mtDNA (Fagundes et al. 2008; Perego et al. 2009;
Tamm et al. 2007), and even craniometric distance
data (González-José et al. 2008)

It is noteworthy that, to our knowledge,
haplogroup A had not been found in the

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:29:10 pm

"It is noteworthy that, to our knowledge,
haplogroup A had not been found in the Americas
in Paleoindian or Early Archaic skeletal remains.
Until now the oldest member of this haplotype in the
New World dated to 4,504 ± 105 years BP (Kaestle
and Smith 2001). The presence of haplogroup B in
southern Chile by 8,000 BP is also unexpected, since
this haplogroup had not been found in present-day
populations southern of 43 degrees south latitude.
Due to the same reason some previous colonization
models based on mtDNA evidence considered that B
was introduced by a separate, more recent migration
(Lalueza-Fox et al. 1997; Torroni et al. 1993).
The haplogroup frequency distribution of Archaic
remains was not found to be statistically different
from a very large sample of extant Amerindians
living in major ecogeographic areas of South
America (Moraga 2003)."


Skeletal Variation Among Early Holocene North American Humans: Implications for
Origins and Diversity in the Americas Auerbach et al 2012

"The movement of humans into the Americas
remains a major topic of debate among scientific disciplines.
Central to this discussion is ascertaining the timing
and migratory routes of the earliest colonizers, in
addition to understanding their ancestry. Molecular studies
have recently argued that the colonizing population
was isolated from other Asian populations for an extended
period before proceeding to colonize the Americas. This
research has suggested that Beringia was the location of
this ''incubation,''

This study employs the remains of the
five most complete North American male early Holocene skeletons to examine
patterns of human morphology at the earliest observable
time period. Stature, body mass, body breadth, and limb
proportions are examined in the context of male skeletal
samples representing the range of morphological variation
in North America in the last two millennia of the Holocene.
These are also compared with a global sample.

Results indicate that early Holocene males have variable
postcranial morphologies, but all share the common trait
of wide bodies. This trait, which is retained in more recent
indigenous North American groups, is associated with
adaptations to cold climates. Peoples from the Americas
exhibit wider bodies than other populations sampled globally.
This pattern suggests the common ancestral population
of all of these indigenous American groups had
reduced morphological variation in this trait. Furthermore,
this provides support for a single, possibly high latitude
location for the genetic isolation of ancestors of the
human colonizers of the Americas."

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:30:12 pm

Ancient DNA Analysis of Mid-Holocene Individuals from the Northwest Coast of North America Reveals Different Evolutionary Paths for Mitogenomes Cui et al 2013

"To gain a better understanding of North American population history, complete mitochondrial genomes (mitogenomes) were generated from four ancient and three living individuals of the northern Northwest Coast of North America, specifically
the north coast of British Columbia, Canada, current home to the indigenous Tsimshian, Haida, and Nisga’a. The mitogenomes of all individuals were previously unknown and assigned to new sub-haplogroup designations D4h3a7, A2ag
and A2ah. The analysis of mitogenomes allows for more detailed analyses of presumed ancestor–descendant relationships than sequencing only the HVSI region of the mitochondrial genome, a more traditional approach in local population
studies. The results of this study provide contrasting examples of the evolution of Native American mitogenomes. Those belonging to sub-haplogroups A2ag and A2ah exhibit temporal continuity in this region for 5000 years up until the present
day. Of possible associative significance is that archaeologically identified house structures in this region maintain similar characteristics for this same period of time, demonstrating cultural continuity in residence patterns. The individual dated to
6000 years before present (BP) exhibited a mitogenome belonging to sub-haplogroup D4h3a. This sub-haplogroup was earlier identified in the same general area at 10300 years BP on Prince of Wales Island, Alaska, and may have gone extinct, as it has not been observed in any living individuals of the Northwest Coast. The presented case studies demonstrate the different evolutionary paths of mitogenomes over time on the Northwest Coast."

Historian
9/20/2014 04:07:42 am

Here's that link again, showing how wrong you were!

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-09/hms-nba091514.php

And, because of your miserable attitude, I do admit I take pleasure in being able to prove you wrong, even if it is many months after the fact.
Try disputing the findings this time. You can't. Whether you like it or not, Native Americans and Western Europeans share ancestry in the very distant past. You're just going to have to live with that fact.

Historian
9/20/2014 04:14:17 am

Read and weep, A.D. Native Americans and Western Europeans share ancestry. You can find the full letter in Nature.

"
Genetic analysis reveals present-day Europeans descended from at least 3, not 2, groups of ancient humans

The setting: Europe, about 7,500 years ago.

Agriculture was sweeping in from the Near East, bringing early farmers into contact with hunter-gatherers who had already been living in Europe for tens of thousands of years.

Genetic and archaeological research in the last 10 years has revealed that almost all present-day Europeans descend from the mixing of these two ancient populations. But it turns out that's not the full story.

Researchers at Harvard Medical School and the University of Tübingen in Germany have now documented a genetic contribution from a third ancestor: Ancient North Eurasians. This group appears to have contributed DNA to present-day Europeans as well as to the people who travelled across the Bering Strait into the Americas more than 15,000 years ago.

"Prior to this paper, the models we had for European ancestry were two-way mixtures. We show that there are three groups," said David Reich, professor of genetics at HMS and co-senior author of the study.

"This also explains the recently discovered genetic connection between Europeans and Native Americans," Reich added. "The same Ancient North Eurasian group contributed to both of them."

The research team also discovered that ancient Near Eastern farmers and their European descendants can trace much of their ancestry to a previously unknown, even older lineage called the Basal Eurasians.

The study is published Sept. 18 in Nature.

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:07:09 pm

They did the same thing back in 2012 when standfords book came out.He couldn't get his crap peer reviewed so they wrote a book instead .Yet that didn't stop the media from blasting it all over with bullshit headlines saying "first americans were europeans".lol what a load of shit.The media is racist and is anti-indian.This I learned real quick and this racism has been around for years!

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 10:38:09 am

Forgive me, but I've been trying to find the most succinct way possible, and I believe it would go like this.

Only in recent years has the realization dawned that Western Eurasians, probably from as far west as Germany, reached Eastern Asia and Siberia by 30,000 years ago. Paleolithic hunters from Western Eurasian reached Eastern Asia. There they mixed with people already living there. That resulting group entered the Americas across the Bering land bridge. This would represent the founding population of Native Americans. Still very much open is the Pacific Coast Kelp Highway Hypothesis as a migration model as well. There are contested dates in South America in excess of 30,000 years. Earlier dates in SA then NA, so the peopling of the Americas is still very much a mystery, but the above scenario is how Western Eurasian genetic markers are found in Native Americans. Do not need to invoke Solutreans or European colonists. Native Americans were part European all along.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
2/6/2014 10:41:23 am

I was actually just reading the new DNA study about this from last month's Nature. It's fascinating new research and goes a long way to explaining "anomalies" so beloved of fringe writers.

Reply
A'lul'lkoy
12/16/2015 08:13:52 pm

Just want to point out that, it's not that Native Americans are part Europeans, but that Europeans are part Ancient Nort Eurasian. European is a modern construct , it consist of 3 components Ancient North Eurasian, Middle Eastern, North African ( back migration) so there is zero chance that native americans are part European, they have none of the other admixure that makes what you would call a European. I think you are confusing Ancient N. Eurasian with European. Eurasian and European ARE NOT the same. Your saying that West Eurasians from as far Western Germany migrated to East Asia and Siberia , 30,000 years ago? Lol! Wrong! I think you got the trip itinerary backwards. Did you get that idea from Der Speigel? Cuz, they came to the same conclusions. That's like me saying that Europeans are part Native American because they had the same the ancestor 30,000 years ago. Ancient north Eurasians were living in East Asia in Siberia, 30,000 yrs. ago their descendants went on to populate the empty continent, the Americas. The other decendants of the ANE went thru Asia down to the Middle East around 30,000 yrs. ago reaching the Alps 20,000 , then 3,000 years ago in the form of proto-Italic-Cetic cultures. And then 2,500 bc Indo-European migration into Western Europe. I forgot to mention this is the Macro Haplgroup R1 picking up Mtdna U, J, T, H along the way. Native Americans were in the Americas for thousands of years, when The Asian ancestors of the Europeans intermarried different ethnic groups to become the European group of people we know today. It's wrong to go around stating that Native Americans are descendants of Europeans or that they are part European. It's simplistic at best, especially since Native American genetics are way older than Modern European ones.

Reply
Normandie Kent link
10/4/2017 10:09:25 pm

No, it just means that the Europeans were Asians, Africans and Middle Eastern the whole time, and only in the past 3,500 years morphed into Europeans. They are newcomers to Europe from Central Asia.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/6/2014 10:57:15 am

Yes …
ALL of the "racial-ist" nonsense is just that -- NONSENSE … including (well-meaning but misguided) attempts to stifle discussion by raising the SPECTER of "racial-ism" …)

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/6/2014 11:37:44 am

White supremacists were keen to seize on the fact Kennewick Man displayed Caucasian traits, to suit their own interpretation of history. They can't do that anymore, thanks to the discovery at Lake Baikal. We should expect to see Caucasian traits in early skeletal remains from the Far West. In that particular case, it allows us to correct, not stifle, a particular discussion. There also is no doubt racism played a role in how European settlers in the Americas interpreted antiquties encountered. The work of anybody but the ancestors of the "savages" they encountered. It was inconceivable that these natives could have created civilizations or risen above the struggle for mete existence. That was an inherent racist opinion of Native Americans. Edmund Delabarre, he of Dighton Rock fame, a professor of psychology at Brown University came to the remarkable conclusion that all petroglyphs dated to post contact times. Why? Because he reasoned the natives needed the inspiration of seeing white men write on paper before they could conceive of writing on rock. And they so wrote on rocks in strict imitation of the white man as well. What a perfectly foolish, and inherently racist, conclusion. And he wrote those conclusions in the 1920's. So that attitude that Native Americans were incapable of monumental works, for instance, was most certainly an enabling factor in the development of some aspects of the earliest notions whites held toward Native Americans. It is most certainly a factor and thus a legitimate topic of discussion. I would not see pointing that component out, in discussing the evolution of alternative history thinking in the Americas, as "stifling" discussion, since it is a part of the history of thinking about these things. I honestly believe that anytime you can shed meaningful light on the context of historical developments or movements, then you are most certainly aiding in any discussion of the topic at hand.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/6/2014 12:33:42 pm

"White Supremacists" are ever keen to grab hold of ANYTHING they hope to use to bolster their claims and goals, including the Bible and Population Genetics … So what … ???

A.D.
2/6/2014 03:37:42 pm

Sorry but as a Native American I see this as just another attempt to put "whites" here first and displace and usurp us as the true originators of the western hemisphere.This has been the agenda for years.No proof of "caucasoids" ever being here.Only in the wet dreams of racist.

Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 12:07:23 am

My point, Rev. Gotsch, is that racial bias on the part of early commentators on cultural remains found in the Americas, made it easier to misinterpret said cultural remains as evidence for something they were not. Dighton Rock was being misinterpreted as Phoenician as early as the 1600's, in part because of assumptions(Native Americans could not conceive of writing in ANY form). Kennewick Man is simply a most recent example of trying to use certain facts, like Caucasian traits, to suit a certain narrative. In that instance, the racism is more overt, whereas among 18th and 19th century American antiquarians, it was on a much more unconscious level. Today's racists usually make no effort to hide their hatred of certain races. 19th century racist attitudes on the part of the antiquarians was more the unconscious belief that Native Americans were an "inferior" race. And misinterpretations of the many earthen monuments of the Ohio and Mississippian Valleys resulted from that bias. So again, my point was knowing the cultural CONTEXT in which antiquarians operated helps us understand WHY they were so keen interpret things incorrectly. Why they accepted hoaxes. Why they interpreted Native American petroglyphs as Old World scripts in some instances. Somebody wrote me recently that John Wesley Powell was part of a conspiracy to suppress the existence of Old World civilization remains in the Grand Canyon. This seems to be a combination of a person having no idea whatsoever what the cultural mileau of the 19th century was(Mormonism culminated the 19th century "Old World was here early" pop culture paradigm) and the fact that Powell was one of the first scientific archaeologists and quite appealed by Mormon inspired historical fantasies. So the person who wrote me simply bought into lock, stock, and barrel that Powell conspired to hide our true history. Without understanding historical context, Rev. Gotsch, the uneducated or undereducated of 21st century America lap this stuff up without full knowledge of context, why Powell felt as he did, etc. I'm not really talking about the hate inspired racism that infuses white supremacist historical revisionism today. I am pointing out that many of the so-called 19th century discoveries that proponents of alternative history today like to point to as evidence that was suppressed is no such thing. So please, do not tell me "so what?" where context is concerned. Context is important in understanding the development of interpretations of America's history and prehistory. If nothing else, it made it easier to accept patently fake artifacts as real. Even today, there were many people who could not see how patently fake the Burrows Cave artifacts were. I have dealt in ancient artifacts for more then 50 years, and a I can honestly say anybody with experience could see immediately that they were fake. Immediately! From mere photos! I knew they were fake while the debate played out for years. Inexperienced people, with no notion of patina, no notion of artistic style, people who WANTED these artifacts to be Old World, just lapped it all up. Ridiculous! And Wolter, a geologist, not an archaeologist, not somebody with decades of experience handling artifacts, was completely fooled and went right on the record with his inexperienced, completely un researched opinion. At first. Very telling the degree of rigor shown by Mr. Wolter.

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 01:49:00 am

It's like the dustup when E. O. Wilson published his magisterial book on "sociobiology" … Stephen Jay Gould strenuously objected to the book and to its ideas NOT because the "science" was *wrong* but because the ideas could easily be misused for ideological purposes …

I think we do best when we discuss the facts, claims, a ideas WITHOUT introducing an emotion-laden prejudicial layer of "racialism" ...

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 04:36:13 am

If somebody believes a certain artifact found in the Americas is evidence for ancient Israelites being in America because that is what they WANT to believe, rather then what the evidence actually says, that fact, that bias, should be pointed out. That is not irrelevant and it certainly isn't prejudicing the discussion. I am not talking about misuse of "facts". I am talking about misinterpretations of evidence that, in part, has it's roots in a particular bias or assumption. Not misused to support what you chose to call "racialism"(?); rather, easily misinterpreted and contrary evidence ignored due to conscious or unconscious bias. Again, I am not talking about white supremacists misuse of "facts" to suit their own agenda. I am referring to 19th century scholars who were all too willing to make assumptions about America's past prior to the rise of scientific archaeology. That is not the same thing as "racialism", whatever that is.....

Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 04:59:39 am

I object to a practice of tying an idea (or fact) or claim to the dark impulses of a vile ideology, whether "racism" or "racial-ism" (they're distinct, but not always separate … look them up) ...

An Over-Educated Grunt
2/7/2014 12:37:40 am

Phil, it's astounding how you're willing to point to Carl Hrafn's work in the 1830s as upsetting the academic applecart, and how we should hold this up as a triumph of new information over the entrenched mindset, but at the same time you insist that someone clinging to ideas espoused at the same time by Andy Jackson is just "grab[bing] hold of ANYTHING." Either the information is old, and well-established, or it's revolutionary. Which is it?

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 12:40:48 am

All I really want is some honesty in research. Many of the ideas that America Unearthed deals with have always interested me. I published the first article and photos of the Narragansett Stone, for instance. I wanted it's existence known. I knew the Hooked X appeared on the Kensington Stone the day we first saw the Narragansett Stone, and that the character was used to cast doubt on the authenticity of the Kensington Stone. I knew it would enter the Precolumbian Exploration discussion, but of course had no idea a theory such as proposed by Wolter would eventually develop. My problem is in not seeing the rigor of research within the works of many who make claims for Precolumbian evidence in the New World. If I see that a person who would offer a reinterpretation of ancient American history is actually unable to distinguish a really bad 20th century fake(Burrows Cave) from something with true age, it concerns me because I must ask how seriously can I take this person's interpretation if he cannot distinguish new from old? Bit, I probably digress.....

Reply
Rev. Phil Gotsch
2/7/2014 01:52:09 am

The studies Scott Wolter did on the Kensington Rune Stone certainly were of a much higher order and took a LONG time and much effort …

The "America Unearthed" TV shows obviously are not and cannot be of the same quality ...

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 04:56:30 am

I won't argue with that, sir.

Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:29:55 am

For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.

I agree that most attention should be on the facts of a case. But the interpretation of America's past that I'm describing as characteristic of 19th century thought was simply the flavor of the day. Overly romanticized. Overtly imaginative, simply because scientific archaeology had not yet allowed us to extract accurate information about the prehistoric past of this hemisphere. This "zeitgeist" of that era was commonly held. Mormonism simply codified it in it's own unique way. The "burnt out district" of upstate New York was fertile ground for the development of a uniquely American variant of Christianity which incorporated the commonly held belief that people of the Old World had been part of the history of the New World. That's the intellectual climate of the early-mid 19th century United States. Not vile, just uneducated about the facts of America's past.

Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:30:01 am

For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.

I agree that most attention should be on the facts of a case. But the interpretation of America's past that I'm describing as characteristic of 19th century thought was simply the flavor of the day. Overly romanticized. Overtly imaginative, simply because scientific archaeology had not yet allowed us to extract accurate information about the prehistoric past of this hemisphere. This "zeitgeist" of that era was commonly held. Mormonism simply codified it in it's own unique way. The "burnt out district" of upstate New York was fertile ground for the development of a uniquely American variant of Christianity which incorporated the commonly held belief that people of the Old World had been part of the history of the New World. That's the intellectual climate of the early-mid 19th century United States. Not vile, just uneducated about the facts of America's past.

Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:30:08 am

For some reason, there was no reply button beneath your comment describing your objection to tying things to dark impulses. Not exactly sure I understand you, but my "take", for want of a better term, is that if there is a possible causal influence between an idea and an unconscious bias, we probably gain by shedding light on the bias, if it's influencing the idea in a cause-effect manner.. I'm not talking about vile impulses even. Certainly not necessarily. Simply a cultural bias that was characteristic of how Americans interpreted the past of this continent well into the 19th century. It isn't vile. And the "racism" wasn't one dominated by hatred. Really a form of enthnocentricity if you wish. Enthnocentricity is quite common and quite human. It does not really have to be described as vile.

I agree that most attention should be on the facts of a case. But the interpretation of America's past that I'm describing as characteristic of 19th century thought was simply the flavor of the day. Overly romanticized. Overtly imaginative, simply because scientific archaeology had not yet allowed us to extract accurate information about the prehistoric past of this hemisphere. This "zeitgeist" of that era was commonly held. Mormonism simply codified it in it's own unique way. The "burnt out district" of upstate New York was fertile ground for the development of a uniquely American variant of Christianity which incorporated the commonly held belief that people of the Old World had been part of the history of the New World. That's the intellectual climate of the early-mid 19th century United States. Not vile, just uneducated about the facts of America's past.

Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 05:33:54 am

My apologies. Kept getting an error message that was apparently itself an error.

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/7/2014 06:16:54 am

A.D. Wrote:

"Sorry but as a Native American I see this as just another attempt to put "whites" here first and displace and usurp us as the true originators of the western hemisphere.This has been the agenda for years.No proof of "caucasoids" ever being here.Only in the wet dreams of racist."

Well, I don't see it that way, and I don't believe it is that way. I have a right to know what the true history of this hemisphere is. Kennewick Man demonstrated no genetic affinity to the Native Americans who insisted he be re buried. Why can't we know the truth of history?! Who is anyone to say we cannot know the truth because it might hurt the sensibilities of Native Americans. There are no sensibilities involved. Nobody is saying this hemisphere belonged to the white man! Nobody!! Native Americans are Native Americans. They are what they are. It is not an effort that has been going on for years. 100 years ago, white scholars thought the Americas had been settled about the time of Christ. I want to know when man first arrived in the hemisphere. Personally, I am not a supporter of the Solutrean hypothesis, but I am certainly not afraid of it. And, if a skeleton is found that demonstrates it will shine a strange new light on early inhabitants, although Kennewick is not really that old, why should I be afraid to look at it?

Putting words in your mouth since you did not bring Kennewick Man up. It leapt into my mind because you are Native American. Sorry I said you were clueless. I don't have a right to tell you how to feel, but you are wrong if you think this is all about "settlement bragging rights"!

Reply
A'lul'koy
12/16/2015 09:33:07 pm

That's the problem with the American public. You think it's your right to know about OUR ancestors! It is not your right. You know that the people who have lived in this hemisphere have a spiritual tie to their ancestors. The remains should not be touched by the hands of anyone not even of their descendants. Let alone a scientist . Any remains found in the ancestral homelands should be considered of the people that lived there, and should be left alone. They should never be touch by scientist, the need to know by you or anyone should not trump the wishes of the tribes, as they don't belong to you, those are another persons ancestors. You have no right to them. Also the scientists did not do genetic tests on Kenniwick Man. So this could they know the remains were not related to the NA's. so they lied. You think that was the way to get on the tribes good side? No, no the Indians have no trust in science. In the past or present. In the future it will be hard to get the natives to work with any scientist. Especially now that it turns out tha kenniwick man was NA all along. Just like they always said. Hopefully nagpra get changed to all remains. No matter how old.

Reply
thomas o mills
2/13/2014 04:05:38 am

The Native American's I know, know where they came from and where we are going. The baby boy found in Montana only proves their story and he should be returned to his resting place.

The first pueblo people came from the south after crossing a large ocean traveling east. They landed at a site called Monte Verde, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde, and then traveled north to their present location.

A thousand years later another group arrived coming down from the north, the Navajo and Na-dene speaking tribes and lived in small shelters of earth and mud shapped like the ice houses they used called igloos.

There were also tribes arriving on the east coast from other areas.

They all agree that this was not the first time this event happened and it happened after a great flood the last time the polar ice caps melted. The polar ice caps are melting today and if you read the artice about Mount Verde you see that they found evidence of a site undernearth it dating back 33,000 years.

The Native American's I know have always said we are all brothers, created equal, and at the same time and same place. No upsetting results here. The Book of the Hopi might be a good reference for you.

Reply
Charlie Devine
2/14/2014 12:53:18 am

I was a graduate student in History in 1969 when I first read The Book of the Hopi. I can honestly say it changed my life fundamentally. It changed completely how I look at our deep past. It made me realize we do not know the true history of mankind on this planet. I honestly believe the Hopi have retained better knowledge of our deep past then the West has. I was never able to see history the same again once exposed to the Book of the Hopi.

Reply
Thomas O. Mills
2/14/2014 02:08:46 am

I agree with you Charlie. I have never heard a Hopi criticize anything in the book and I lived with them for four years in the early 70's operating the Hopi Cultural Center. Changed my life in many ways also.

Waters wrote a short follow-up called Pumpkin Seed Point about his relationship with White Bear and writing the Book of Hopi which you might be interested in.

Happy Days Charlie

Charlie Devine
2/15/2014 02:18:11 pm

Thanks, Thomas. Nice meeting you! Coincidently, I received a copy of The Fourth World of the Hopis by Harold Courlander this past Xmas. Haven't started it yet. Good to see most of the sacred objects were purchased and returned to them in the most recent Paris auction.
Best,
Charlie

J.C.
10/13/2014 09:16:41 pm

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2014/02/13/genetic-study-kills-off-solutrean-hypothesis/

Reply
laser printer USA link
3/23/2016 01:26:52 am

I like your blog. I enjoyed reading your blog. It was amazing. Thanks a lot.

Reply
LEROY WASHINGTON
1/15/2019 03:58:04 am

ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH COME FROM PREHISTORIC GREECE, GOOGLE "GREACOPITHICUS", THE FIRST PEOPLE ON EARTH WERE EUROPEANS!

Reply
Historian
2/3/2020 04:54:33 pm

@Francis Fromal, if Clovis points are "not of Native American make", than why has no Clovis point ever been found outside North or South America? At the very least, everyone, on both sides of the debate, agrees that Clovis points originated in North America. If they were developed by arrivals from across the Atlantic, who used Solutrean technology, then why have no other traits associated with people who utilized Solutrean technology turned up in the Americas?

That's just a question, not a challenge. Heck, somebody here said I should be killed for arguing a point of view different then their's. How insane is that, lol. I should be killed for having a mind of my own. Killed, because I enjoy the mystery that is the peopling of the Americas. You didn't, but the anger and rancor toward people we don't even know is just plain crazy.

I'm not challenging you. The peopling of the Americas is the greatest detective story in American archaeology. We should encourage these debates, and there is never any good excuse for rancor at all. By its very nature, there will always be more that we don't know about pre-history, then what we do know. Always. How could it be otherwise? Pre-history means pre-writing. I am amazed at the tests developed by several disciplines that allows us to learn about prehistoric peoples, despite the lack of written records.

I an not promoting racism, consciously, or unknowingly. And you are entitled to believe whatever you choose to believe. I don't care, why would I?

BTW, of course native groups warred and fought each other. The English played the tribes off against each other, in New England, because those tribes fought each other to begin with. Too late, Metacom and others tried to unite the rival tribes against the English.

Reply

Your comment will be posted after it is approved.


Leave a Reply.

    Blog
    Picture

    Author

    I am an author and researcher focusing on pop culture, science, and history. Bylines: New Republic, Esquire, Slate, etc. There's more about me in the About Jason tab.

    Become a Patron!
    Tweets by JasonColavito
    Picture

    Newsletters

    Enter your email below to subscribe to my newsletter for updates on my latest projects, blog posts, and activities, and subscribe to Culture & Curiosities, my Substack newsletter.

    powered by TinyLetter

    Blog Roll

    Ancient Aliens Debunked
    Picture
    A Hot Cup of Joe
    ArchyFantasies
    Bad UFOs
    Mammoth Tales
    Matthew R. X. Dentith
    PaleoBabble
    Picture

    Categories

    All
    Alternative Archaeology
    Alternative Archaeology
    Alternative History
    Alternative History
    America Unearthed
    Ancient Aliens
    Ancient Astronauts
    Ancient History
    Ancient Texts
    Ancient Texts
    Archaeology
    Atlantis
    Conspiracies
    Giants
    Habsburgs
    Horror
    King Arthur
    Knights Templar
    Lovecraft
    Mythology
    Occult
    Popular Culture
    Popular Culture
    Projects
    Pyramids
    Racism
    Science
    Skepticism
    Ufos
    Weird Old Art
    Weird Things
    White Nationalism

    Terms & Conditions

    Please read all applicable terms and conditions before posting a comment on this blog. Posting a comment constitutes your agreement to abide by the terms and conditions linked herein.

    Archives

    March 2023
    February 2023
    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    February 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    April 2017
    March 2017
    February 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    October 2016
    September 2016
    August 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    May 2016
    April 2016
    March 2016
    February 2016
    January 2016
    December 2015
    November 2015
    October 2015
    September 2015
    August 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    December 2014
    November 2014
    October 2014
    September 2014
    August 2014
    July 2014
    June 2014
    May 2014
    April 2014
    March 2014
    February 2014
    January 2014
    December 2013
    November 2013
    October 2013
    September 2013
    August 2013
    July 2013
    June 2013
    May 2013
    April 2013
    March 2013
    February 2013
    January 2013
    December 2012
    November 2012
    October 2012
    September 2012
    August 2012
    July 2012
    June 2012
    May 2012
    April 2012
    March 2012
    February 2012
    January 2012
    December 2011
    November 2011
    October 2011
    September 2011
    August 2011
    July 2011
    June 2011
    May 2011
    April 2011
    March 2011
    February 2011
    January 2011
    December 2010
    November 2010
    October 2010
    September 2010
    August 2010
    July 2010
    June 2010
    May 2010
    April 2010
    March 2010
    February 2010

    RSS Feed

Picture
Home  |  Blog  |  Books  | Contact  |  About Jason | Terms & Conditions
© 2010-2023 Jason Colavito. All rights reserved.

  • Home
  • Blog
  • Books
    • Legends of the Pyramids
    • The Mound Builder Myth
    • Jason and the Argonauts
    • Cult of Alien Gods >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Foundations of Atlantis
    • Knowing Fear >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Hideous Bit of Morbidity >
      • Contents
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
    • Cthulhu in World Mythology >
      • Excerpt
      • Image Gallery
      • Necronomicon Fragments
      • Oral Histories
    • Fiction >
      • Short Stories
      • Free Fiction
    • JasonColavito.com Books >
      • Faking History
      • Unearthing the Truth
      • Critical Companion to Ancient Aliens
      • Studies in Ancient Astronautics (Series) >
        • Theosophy on Ancient Astronauts
        • Pyramidiots!
        • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • Fiction Anthologies >
        • Unseen Horror >
          • Contents
          • Excerpt
        • Moon Men! >
          • Contents
      • The Orphic Argonautica >
        • Contents
        • Excerpt
      • The Faust Book >
        • Contents
        • Excerpt
      • Classic Reprints
      • eBook Minis
    • Free eBooks >
      • Origin of the Space Gods
      • Ancient Atom Bombs
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Ancient America
      • Horror & Science
  • Articles
    • Skeptical Xenoarchaeologist Newsletter >
      • Volumes 1-10 Archive >
        • Volume 1 Archive
        • Volume 2 Archive
        • Volume 3 Archive
        • Volume 4 Archive
        • Volume 5 Archive
        • Volume 6 Archive
        • Volume 7 Archive
        • Volume 8 Archive
        • Volume 9 Archive
        • Volume 10 Archive
      • Volumes 11-20 Archive >
        • Volume 11 Archive
        • Volume 12 Archive
        • Volume 13 Archive
        • Volume 14 Archive
        • Volume 15 Archive
        • Volume 16 Archive
        • Volume 17 Archive
        • Volume 18 Archive
        • Volume 19 Archive
        • Volume 20 Archive
      • Volumes 21-30 Archive >
        • Volume 21 Archive
        • Volume 22 Archive
    • Television Reviews >
      • Ancient Aliens Reviews
      • In Search of Aliens Reviews
      • America Unearthed
      • Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
      • Search for the Lost Giants
      • Forbidden History Reviews
      • Expedition Unknown Reviews
      • Legends of the Lost
      • Unexplained + Unexplored
      • Rob Riggle: Global Investigator
    • Book Reviews
    • Galleries >
      • Bad Archaeology
      • Ancient Civilizations >
        • Ancient Egypt
        • Ancient Greece
        • Ancient Near East
        • Ancient Americas
      • Supernatural History
      • Book Image Galleries
    • Videos
    • Collection: Ancient Alien Fraud >
      • Chariots of the Gods at 50
      • Secret History of Ancient Astronauts
      • Of Atlantis and Aliens
      • Aliens and Ancient Texts
      • Profiles in Ancient Astronautics >
        • Erich von Däniken
        • Robert Temple
        • Giorgio Tsoukalos
        • David Childress
      • Blunders in the Sky
      • The Case of the False Quotes
      • Alternative Authors' Quote Fraud
      • David Childress & the Aliens
      • Faking Ancient Art in Uzbekistan
      • Intimations of Persecution
      • Zecharia Sitchin's World
      • Jesus' Alien Ancestors?
      • Extraterrestrial Evolution?
    • Collection: Skeptic Magazine >
      • America Before Review
      • Native American Discovery of Europe
      • Interview: Scott Sigler
      • Golden Fleeced
      • Oh the Horror
      • Discovery of America
      • Supernatural Television
      • Review of Civilization One
      • Who Lost the Middle Ages
      • Charioteer of the Gods
    • Collection: Ancient History >
      • Prehistoric Nuclear War
      • The China Syndrome
      • Atlantis, Mu, and the Maya
      • Easter Island Exposed
      • Who Built the Sphinx?
      • Who Built the Great Pyramid?
      • Archaeological Cover Up?
    • Collection: The Lovecraft Legacy >
      • Pauwels, Bergier, and Lovecraft
      • Lovecraft in Bergier
      • Lovecraft and Scientology
    • Collection: UFOs >
      • Alien Abduction at the Outer Limits
      • Aliens and Anal Probes
      • Ultra-Terrestrials and UFOs
      • Rebels, Queers, and Aliens
    • Scholomance: The Devil's School
    • Prehistory of Chupacabra
    • The Templars, the Holy Grail, & Henry Sinclair
    • Magicians of the Gods Review
    • The Curse of the Pharaohs
    • The Antediluvian Pyramid Myth
    • Whitewashing American Prehistory
    • James Dean's Cursed Porsche
  • The Library
    • Ancient Mysteries >
      • Ancient Texts >
        • Mesopotamian Texts >
          • Atrahasis Epic
          • Epic of Gilgamesh
          • Kutha Creation Legend
          • Babylonian Creation Myth
          • Descent of Ishtar
          • Berossus
          • Comparison of Antediluvian Histories
        • Egyptian Texts >
          • The Shipwrecked Sailor
          • Dream Stela of Thutmose IV
          • The Papyrus of Ani
          • Classical Accounts of the Pyramids
          • Inventory Stela
          • Manetho
          • Eratosthenes' King List
          • The Story of Setna
          • Leon of Pella
          • Diodorus on Egyptian History
          • On Isis and Osiris
          • Famine Stela
          • Old Egyptian Chronicle
          • The Book of Sothis
          • Horapollo
          • Al-Maqrizi's King List
        • Teshub and the Dragon
        • Hermetica >
          • The Three Hermeses
          • Kore Kosmou
          • Corpus Hermeticum
          • The Asclepius
          • The Emerald Tablet
          • Hermetic Fragments
          • Prologue to the Kyranides
          • The Secret of Creation
          • Ancient Alphabets Explained
          • Prologue to Ibn Umayl's Silvery Water
          • Book of the 24 Philosophers
          • Aurora of the Philosophers
        • Hesiod's Theogony
        • Periplus of Hanno
        • Ctesias' Indica
        • Sanchuniathon
        • Sima Qian
        • Syncellus's Enoch Fragments
        • The Book of Enoch
        • Slavonic Enoch
        • Sepher Yetzirah
        • Tacitus' Germania
        • De Dea Syria
        • Aelian's Various Histories
        • Julius Africanus' Chronography
        • Eusebius' Chronicle
        • Chinese Accounts of Rome
        • Ancient Chinese Automaton
        • The Orphic Argonautica
        • Fragments of Panodorus
        • Annianus on the Watchers
        • The Watchers and Antediluvian Wisdom
      • Medieval Texts >
        • Medieval Legends of Ancient Egypt >
          • Medieval Pyramid Lore
          • John Malalas on Ancient Egypt
          • Fragments of Abenephius
          • Akhbar al-zaman
          • Ibrahim ibn Wasif Shah
          • Murtada ibn al-‘Afif
          • Al-Maqrizi on the Pyramids
          • Al-Suyuti on the Pyramids
        • The Hunt for Noah's Ark
        • Isidore of Seville
        • Book of Liang: Fusang
        • Agobard on Magonia
        • Book of Thousands
        • Voyage of Saint Brendan
        • Power of Art and of Nature
        • Travels of Sir John Mandeville
        • Yazidi Revelation and Black Book
        • Al-Biruni on the Great Flood
        • Voyage of the Zeno Brothers
        • The Kensington Runestone (Hoax)
        • Islamic Discovery of America
        • The Aztec Creation Myth
      • Lost Civilizations >
        • Atlantis >
          • Plato's Atlantis Dialogues >
            • Timaeus
            • Critias
          • Fragments on Atlantis
          • Panchaea: The Other Atlantis
          • Eumalos on Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Gómara on Atlantis
          • Sardinia and Atlantis
          • Santorini and Atlantis
          • The Mound Builders and Atlantis
          • Donnelly's Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Morocco
          • Atlantis and the Sea Peoples
          • W. Scott-Elliot >
            • The Story of Atlantis
            • The Lost Lemuria
          • The Lost Atlantis
          • Atlantis in Africa
          • How I Found Atlantis (Hoax)
          • Termier on Atlantis
          • The Critias and Minoan Crete
          • Rebuttal to Termier
          • Further Responses to Termier
          • Flinders Petrie on Atlantis
        • Lost Cities >
          • Miscellaneous Lost Cities
          • The Seven Cities
          • The Lost City of Paititi
          • Manuscript 512
          • The Idolatrous City of Iximaya (Hoax)
          • The 1885 Moberly Lost City Hoax
          • The Elephants of Paredon (Hoax)
        • OOPARTs
        • Oronteus Finaeus Antarctica Map
        • Caucasians in Panama
        • Jefferson's Excavation
        • Fictitious Discoveries in America
        • Against Diffusionism
        • Tunnels Under Peru
        • The Parahyba Inscription (Hoax)
        • Mound Builders
        • Gunung Padang
        • Tales of Enchanted Islands
        • The 1907 Ancient World Map Hoax
        • The 1909 Grand Canyon Hoax
        • The Interglacial Period
        • Solving Oak Island
      • Religious Conspiracies >
        • Pantera, Father of Jesus?
        • Toledot Yeshu
        • Peter of les Vaux-de-Cernay on Cathars
        • Testimony of Jean de Châlons
        • Rosslyn Chapel and the 'Prentice's Pillar
        • The Many Wives of Jesus
        • Templar Infiltration of Labor
        • Louis Martin & the Holy Bloodline
        • The Life of St. Issa (Hoax)
        • On the Person of Jesus Christ
      • Giants in the Earth >
        • Fossil Origins of Myths >
          • Fossil Teeth and Bones of Elephants
          • Fossil Elephants
          • Fossil Bones of Teutobochus
          • Fossil Mammoths and Giants
          • Giants' Bones Dug Out of the Earth
          • Fossils and the Supernatural
          • Fossils, Myth, and Pseudo-History
          • Man During the Stone Age
          • Fossil Bones and Giants
          • American Elephant Myths
          • The Mammoth and the Flood
          • Fossils and Myth
          • Fossil Origin of the Cyclops
          • Mastodon, Mammoth, and Man
        • Fragments on Giants
        • Manichaean Book of Giants
        • Geoffrey on British Giants
        • Alfonso X's Hermetic History of Giants
        • Boccaccio and the Fossil 'Giant'
        • Book of Howth
        • Purchas His Pilgrimage
        • Edmond Temple's 1827 Giant Investigation
        • The Giants of Sardinia
        • Giants and the Sons of God
        • The Magnetism of Evil
        • Tertiary Giants
        • Smithsonian Giant Reports
        • Early American Giants
        • The Giant of Coahuila
        • Jewish Encyclopedia on Giants
        • Index of Giants
        • Newspaper Accounts of Giants
        • Lanier's A Book of Giants
      • Science and History >
        • Halley on Noah's Comet
        • The Newport Tower
        • Iron: The Stone from Heaven
        • Ararat and the Ark
        • Pyramid Facts and Fancies
        • Argonauts before Homer
        • The Deluge
        • Crown Prince Rudolf on the Pyramids
        • Old Mythology in New Apparel
        • Blavatsky on Dinosaurs
        • Teddy Roosevelt on Bigfoot
        • Devil Worship in France
        • Maspero's Review of Akhbar al-zaman
        • The Holy Grail as Lucifer's Crown Jewel
        • The Mutinous Sea
        • The Rock Wall of Rockwall
        • Fabulous Zoology
        • The Origins of Talos
        • Mexican Mythology
        • Chinese Pyramids
        • Maqrizi's Names of the Pharaohs
      • Extreme History >
        • Roman Empire Hoax
        • American Antiquities
        • American Cataclysms
        • England, the Remnant of Judah
        • Historical Chronology of the Mexicans
        • Maspero on the Predynastic Sphinx
        • Vestiges of the Mayas
        • Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel
        • Origins of the Egyptian People
        • The Secret Doctrine >
          • Volume 1: Cosmogenesis
          • Volume 2: Anthropogenesis
        • Phoenicians in America
        • The Electric Ark
        • Traces of European Influence
        • Prince Henry Sinclair
        • Pyramid Prophecies
        • Templars of Ancient Mexico
        • Chronology and the "Riddle of the Sphinx"
        • The Faith of Ancient Egypt
        • Spirit of the Hour in Archaeology
        • Book of the Damned
        • Great Pyramid As Noah's Ark
        • Richard Shaver's Proofs
    • Alien Encounters >
      • US Government Ancient Astronaut Files >
        • Fortean Society and Columbus
        • Inquiry into Shaver and Palmer
        • The Skyfort Document
        • Whirling Wheels
        • Denver Ancient Astronaut Lecture
        • Soviet Search for Lemuria
        • Visitors from Outer Space
        • Unidentified Flying Objects (Abstract)
        • "Flying Saucers"? They're a Myth
        • UFO Hypothesis Survival Questions
        • Air Force Academy UFO Textbook
        • The Condon Report on Ancient Astronauts
        • Atlantis Discovery Telegrams
        • Ancient Astronaut Society Telegram
        • Noah's Ark Cables
        • The Von Daniken Letter
        • CIA Psychic Probe of Ancient Mars
        • Scott Wolter Lawsuit
        • UFOs in Ancient China
        • CIA Report on Noah's Ark
        • CIA Noah's Ark Memos
        • Congressional Ancient Aliens Testimony
        • Ancient Astronaut and Nibiru Email
        • Congressional Ancient Mars Hearing
        • House UFO Hearing
      • Ancient Extraterrestrials >
        • Premodern UFO Sightings
        • The Moon Hoax
        • Inhabitants of Other Planets
        • Blavatsky on Ancient Astronauts
        • The Stanzas of Dzyan (Hoax)
        • Aerolites and Religion
        • What Is Theosophy?
        • Plane of Ether
        • The Adepts from Venus
      • A Message from Mars
      • Saucer Mystery Solved?
      • Orville Wright on UFOs
      • Interdimensional Flying Saucers
      • Flying Saucers Are Real
      • Report on UFOs
    • The Supernatural >
      • The Devils of Loudun
      • Sublime and Beautiful
      • Voltaire on Vampires
      • Demonology and Witchcraft
      • Thaumaturgia
      • Bulgarian Vampires
      • Religion and Evolution
      • Transylvanian Superstitions
      • Defining a Zombie
      • Dread of the Supernatural
      • Vampires
      • Werewolves and Vampires and Ghouls
      • Science and Fairy Stories
      • The Cursed Car
    • Classic Fiction >
      • Lucian's True History
      • Some Words with a Mummy
      • The Coming Race
      • King Solomon's Mines
      • An Inhabitant of Carcosa
      • The Xipéhuz
      • Lot No. 249
      • The Novel of the Black Seal
      • The Island of Doctor Moreau
      • Pharaoh's Curse
      • Edison's Conquest of Mars
      • The Lost Continent
      • Count Magnus
      • The Mysterious Stranger
      • The Wendigo
      • Sredni Vashtar
      • The Lost World
      • The Red One
      • H. P. Lovecraft >
        • Dagon
        • The Call of Cthulhu
        • History of the Necronomicon
        • At the Mountains of Madness
        • Lovecraft's Library in 1932
      • The Skeptical Poltergeist
      • The Corpse on the Grating
      • The Second Satellite
      • Queen of the Black Coast
      • A Martian Odyssey
    • Classic Genre Movies
    • Miscellaneous Documents >
      • The Balloon-Hoax
      • A Problem in Greek Ethics
      • The Migration of Symbols
      • The Gospel of Intensity
      • De Profundis
      • The Life and Death of Crown Prince Rudolf
      • The Bathtub Hoax
      • Crown Prince Rudolf's Letters
      • Position of Viking Women
      • Employment of Homosexuals
      • James Dean's Scrapbook
      • James Dean's Love Letters
      • The Amazing James Dean Hoax!
    • Free Classic Pseudohistory eBooks
  • About Jason
    • Biography
    • Jason in the Media
    • Contact Jason
    • About JasonColavito.com
    • Terms and Conditions
  • Search