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Why Are So Many Interested Now in a 2008 Claim about the Sphinx's Age?

10/24/2015

52 Comments

 
I was all set to review the newest episode of True Monsters for today’s blog post since it was supposed to deal with a topic near and dear to my heart: Indo-European mythology. However, I was surprised to see that the History Channel abruptly pulled the series following its disastrous performance in the ratings against rival Discovery’s Gold Rush franchise. True Monsters failed to attract more than 300,000 viewers in the adults 18-49 demographic against viewership of just 1.06 million viewers. In its last outing, the series lost more than 28% of its Ancient Aliens rerun lead-in audience of 1.48 million viewers, and crucially it lost more than a quarter of the lead-in audience under the age of 49. Ancient Aliens performs reasonably well against Discovery’s Bering Sea Gold and Gold Rush, but True Monsters did not. History plans to burn off the last two episodes of the series next week, on the little-watched pre-Halloween Friday.
So, in lieu of that, I’d like to talk about Ancient Code again, not because I really want to but because the site’s owner, Ivan Petricevic, managed to create an internet flap based on recycling old material that few realized wasn’t new.
 
A few weeks ago Petricevic posted an article claiming that two Ukrainian geologists had declared that the Great Sphinx of Egypt was 800,000 years old based on their analysis of the weathering pattern on the monument. Vjacheslav I. Manichev and Alexander G. Parkhomenko claimed that water erosion of the Sphinx indicated that the monument was already standing at the beginning of the early Pleistocene, around 750,000 years ago. Yes, Petricevic got the date wrong, and most of those who are reacting to him followed suit.
 
Manichev is a nuclear geochemist who specializes in metals; Parkomenko is listed as working in the field of geography, but I can find no other information about him in English.
 
Over the next weeks, both conspiracy theorists and skeptics expressed varying degrees of excitement and outrage over the claim, but so far as I can tell, few people have noted that this is not a new claim. It was not, as Petricevic implied, news ​in the sense of being recent. As with most articles appearing on the Ancient Code website, it was a recycled rewrite of material first published seven years ago in Geoarchaeology and Archaeomineralogy, the proceedings of an October 2008 international conference held in Sofia, Bulgaria.
 
This material is so well-known that it has appeared already in a number of fringe books, including one by Robert Schoch, the originator of the claim that the Sphinx was eroded by water. In Forgotten Civilization: The Role of Solar Outbursts in Our Past and Future (2012), Schoch notes the two Ukrainian scientists’ findings and notes that they are based on his own work. “Personally, I am not convinced that the Great Sphinx is anywhere close to the age postulated by Manichev and Parkomenko,” Schoch wrote in defense of his own proposed date before the start of dynastic Egypt.
 
For what it is worth, the two authors did not conduct any field testing to reach their conclusions. Instead, they say that they re-dated the monument based on a “visual investigation” (i.e. visiting the Sphinx and looking at it) and “reading the literary sources.” They based their conclusion on a comparison of the Sphinx, in a desert environment, with rock walls around the Black Sea, in an environment that differs in pretty much every conceivable way. Nevertheless, they argue that the undulating pattern of erosion on the Sphinx is not the work of wind and sand working differentially on rock layers of different hardness but rather the work of waves that accomplished the same task in a time when Giza was flooded.
 
They conclude that when the Sphinx was carved, Giza must have been like the Black Sea is today, and therefore this could only have occurred 750,000 years ago. The argument runs thus: If we assume that waves were necessary to create the erosion pattern (because it looks similar to the erosion pattern on the Black Sea coast), then we would need a water level at least 160 m higher than the current sea level to flood the Sphinx; therefore, this could only have occurred 750,000 years ago, the last time the sea was so high. As you can see, the problem is the initial if, based as it is on a “looks like therefore is” line of reasoning, without geochemical or any other type of proof to substantiate it.
 
They also do not explain how the Sphinx, which continues to deteriorate and erode in the desert environment to this day, survived 750,000 years almost intact while undergoing much more damaging erosion in historical times except that they feel that sand erosion, which is known to have occurred, was much more damaging than their proposed hundreds of thousands of years of water erosion.
 
When you drill down into their paper, it becomes clear that they never considered alternative hypotheses, nor did they attempt to find proof that only submersion in a giant lake could achieve the erosion they describe. It’s also disturbing that almost all of their sources on geology were Soviet texts published in the 1960s. Surely there have been updates to geology since then. Worse, their paper takes as its foundation the Secrete Doctrine of Helena Blavatsky, which they refer to in their own English re-translation of the Russian translation, citing Book 2, Part 2, Stanza 5, which I give in the original: “Behold the imperishable witness to the evolution of the human races from the divine, and especially from the androgynous Race—the Egyptian Sphinx, that riddle of the Ages!” They argue that the lines place the Sphinx at 750,000 BCE, though in context it is not at all clear that this is what she meant. But anyway the point remains: The whole claim is inspired by Theosophy... and the part of Theosophy (as we can see from her footnotes) directly inspired by the ​Book of Enoch and the myth of the Fallen Angels!
52 Comments
An Over-Educated Grunt
10/24/2015 01:22:17 pm

There have been significant leaps in geology since the early 1960s, especially in the field of erosion. I'd be very leery of relying on anything from 1960s-era texts in any language given the changes in the field that have happened in the last 50 years.

It's a pretty big supposition to say that wave action is the only way that particular erosion could have happened. For one thing, it doesn't look at all like there's any ripple as you'd see with wave action along the side a rock mass. I can totally believe aeolian erosion, since it is in an environment with lots of blowing particulates, and we know from the stele out in front that at least one major excavation happened in Pharaonic times, so we have plenty of evidence of deposition even in that period, but wave action? Not really, no.

Reply
Pam
10/24/2015 02:43:24 pm

"I'm guessing the answer is Blavatsky, because the answer ALWAYS seems to be either Blavatsky or giants around here."

You wrote this yesterday and I laughed, and now this newest contribution to the pool of misinformation is inspired by none other than the famous Ms. Blavatsky! It's frustrating.

Reply
Nobody Knows
10/24/2015 04:26:06 pm

Not even Over-Ignorant Grunt knows when the Sphinx was carved.
Mainstream position is based on guesswork.

Reply
Only Me
10/24/2015 04:38:55 pm

Still pleading the case for a time machine, I see.

An Over-Educated Grunt
10/24/2015 05:32:46 pm

Hodor.

Nobody Knows
10/24/2015 07:54:39 pm

Freethinking, Rationality, Skepticism and the Historical Method all evolved out of something - and it wasn't out of religious fundamentalism.

Those concepts are not "Virgin Born"

LOL

The facts are out there.

Nobody Knows
10/24/2015 07:57:41 pm

There was no Freemasonic inspiration behind the Russian Revolution, but didn't Lenin just love religion.

The working classes were oppressed by Christianity in Russia just like in other countries that had Revolutions.

Nobody Knows
10/24/2015 08:00:08 pm

The official dating of the Sphinx is based upon an inscription that does not date from its period.

Time Machine is required because the dating is pure guesswork.

Only Me
10/24/2015 08:59:15 pm

Then, in accordance with that line of reasoning, your Freemason-inspired revolutions are also guesswork; you listed references from 1903, 1933,1967, 2008 and 2012. That's well after most of the revolutions occurred.

You're also wrong about the official dating of the Sphinx. Mark Lehner states:

"The most compelling evidence that the Sphinx was built for the Egyptian Pharaoh Khafre during his reign (2520-2494 BC) is in the architecture, geology, and archaeology of the Sphinx and its related monuments."

This link explains why:
http://www.aeraweb.org/sphinx-project/why-sequence-is-important/

Clint Knapp
10/24/2015 09:07:18 pm

Nonsense. Even if you had a "Time Machine" you'd have to prove that you did indeed go back in time to the same point in this timeline that you claim you did and returned to the same point you left from in order to demonstrate that you are, in fact, witness to an event such as the building of the same Great Sphinx.

Otherwise, one can easily argue that you are in fact:

1) a crackpot who hallucinated the whole thing
2)a charlatan who simply built an alternate-universe machine and therefore witnessed the Sphinx of a different timeline altogether
3) or an idiot who never actually traveled anywhere and your time machine was just a box that zaps you in the testicles.

Nevermind, of course, the even greater issue to overcome of what your presence at the event would do to the course of universal history going forward from the moment you went back to witness. Odds are that the sudden injection of more matter and energy than the universe held at that particular point in time (ie. you and your time machine) would radically alter all physical interactions going forth and you would simply never return to the same universal state you left.

Or is this one of those "astral" time machines? In which event, refer to alternate time-traveler explanation #1.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 01:02:33 am

http://www.aeraweb.org/sphinx-project/why-sequence-is-important/

I note the word "probability" in the very first sentence of Mark Lehner's article. It's an opinion.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 01:08:09 am

Clint Knapp,

If I had a Time Machine I would make sure I would pass-on the blueprint plans to archaeologists and historians, so they could enjoy going on fact-finding missions to update their lack of material and eradicate all opinions and theories.

Any archaeologist or historian worth their salt would own up to the fact that they are short on their databases and that their opinions and theories are only that and nothing else.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 01:14:32 am

Only Me,

Giving the factual history of Freemasonry serves as evidence just how wrong and ignorant the likes of Scott Wolter are about the subject matter, and what a howler it is to link Freemasonry with the Jesus Christ - Mary Magdalene bloodline,

Many of today's Freemasons don't know anything about the history of their own Craft. That's a fact, otherwise the likes of Robert Lomas would never have sold any books.

Not the Comte de Saint Germain
10/25/2015 02:03:43 am

For anyone who wants to delve into the technical details of the Sphinx's erosion, here is a pretty good look at the back-and-forth on the subject:

http://ancientaliensdebunked.com/how-old-is-the-sphinx-colin-reader-vs-robert-schoch/

Whether or not the Sphinx was built under Khafre, I find Schoch's dates unconvincing. There are plenty of possible sources for erosion within the past 5,000 years. Manichev and Parkomenko's dates are just silly.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 02:08:00 am

Schoch is guessing about the Sphinx
Everybody is guessing about the Shinx

Come clean

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 02:14:44 am

Mainstream position holds theories that are just as bizarre as those held by the fringe.

One example:

Were Martians wiped out by a nuclear bomb?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2998835/Were-Martians-wiped-nuclear-bomb-Physicist-present-new-evidence-bizarre-theory-Nasa-conference.html

Only Me
10/25/2015 02:30:00 am

1. Nobody Knows makes an incorrect statement about the Sphinx.
2. Is shown to be wrong
3. Ignores the matter entirely to focus on one word and claim "It's an opinion."

>>>Any archaeologist or historian worth their salt would own up to the fact that they are short on their databases and that their opinions and theories are only that and nothing else.<<<

Reread that quote until it sinks in, Nobody Knows. You contradict yourself with your next comment to me by saying, "Giving the factual history of Freemasonry...".

You *just admitted* that your Masonic history argument is based on databases that are "short", and, "opinions and theories" that "are only that and nothing else." You can't exclude your sources from your own generalized statement just to maintain you're right and everyone else is wrong. If you even try, then you're as incompetent, manipulative and dishonest as the fringe theorists you criticize.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 02:38:08 am

The Roman Catholic religion was replaced by the Cult of the Goddess of Reason in France after the French Revolution. That's a fact.

We've only got theories and opinions about the date of the origin of the Sphinx.

Big distinction.

Only Me
10/25/2015 03:27:50 am

Wrong.

Your reply to Clint buried your previous comments. You're trying to pull from both sides of the argument, but I won't let you. I won't allow you to call the collective work of all archaeologists and historians "opinions and theories" lacking in material while insisting your own opinions are a matter of historical fact...especially when you use the work of those same historians to support your stance.

Stop grasping at straws and apply first aid to that self-inflicted wound.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 03:43:34 am

Only Me,

You are a dishonest person

All of my comments about Freemasonry are supported by historical facts.

Only Me
10/25/2015 03:46:41 am

Here's a supported statement


https://web.archive.org/web/20080610005442/http://www.godf.org/comm_p_detail.asp?num=142



10/04/2008


On 10 April 2008 Jean-Michel QUILLARDET, Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France, enjoyed an audience with Monsieur Bernard ACCOYER, President of the Assemblée Nationale.

The Grandmaster once again affirmed that any attack on the provisions of the Law of 1905, even if undertaken at a purely regulatory level, would constitute an unacceptable weakening of the principle of secularity.

The President of the Assemblée Nationale, in response, issued a clear reminder that it was in everyone’s interests to preserve the balance that was a feature of the Law of 1905.

In response to a question by the Grandmaster, the President of the Assemblée Nationale emphasised the importance that he attached to the "MIVILUDES" and to the struggle against religious cults. The Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France congratulated him on this point.

The meeting concluded with a constructive discussion on the reform of governmental institutions and, in particular, the composition of the Conseil Économique et Social

In this manner the Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France continued his appointed task and his struggle to disseminate the beliefs of the Grand Orient de France.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 03:50:18 am

Only Me,

Here's a supported statement

https://web.archive.org/web/20080610005442/http://www.godf.org/comm_p_detail.asp?num=142

10/04/2008

On 10 April 2008 Jean-Michel QUILLARDET, Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France, enjoyed an audience with Monsieur Bernard ACCOYER, President of the Assemblée Nationale.

The Grandmaster once again affirmed that any attack on the provisions of the Law of 1905, even if undertaken at a purely regulatory level, would constitute an unacceptable weakening of the principle of secularity.

The President of the Assemblée Nationale, in response, issued a clear reminder that it was in everyone’s interests to preserve the balance that was a feature of the Law of 1905.

In response to a question by the Grandmaster, the President of the Assemblée Nationale emphasised the importance that he attached to the "MIVILUDES" and to the struggle against religious cults. The Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France congratulated him on this point.

The meeting concluded with a constructive discussion on the reform of governmental institutions and, in particular, the composition of the Conseil Économique et Social

In this manner the Grandmaster of the Grand Orient de France continued his appointed task and his struggle to disseminate the beliefs of the Grand Orient de France.

Clint Knapp
10/25/2015 03:56:43 am

Historical facts you pull from the exact same sources you decry as incomplete; historians and their woefully incomplete "databases".

You proclaim truth and higher knowledge, but admit by the fact you have not already submitted the plans to a functional time machine to world historians that your own suppositions are nothing more than that since you haven't time traveled to affirm their correctness.

Until you can prove that you have a time machine that functions in such a matter as to provide accurate travel into the distant past of this planet, this universe, and this timeline of events that have lead up to today as we the species collectively observe it with absolutely no deviation or chance that you've slipped into another universe altogether (we'll just call that "the Wooniverse") where all of your subjective claims are objective reality, your proclamations of truth supreme over the fallacies of others will continue to hold no water.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 03:59:47 am

Clint Knapp,

There are verifiable and demonstrable facts, and then there are opinions and theories.

Reputable historians and archaeologists are able to make the distinction between the two - they usually do so when making theories about the Sphinx.

Only Me
10/25/2015 04:05:10 am

>>>All of my comments about Freemasonry are supported by historical facts.<<<

Nope. You said historians are lacking in material and "their opinions and theories are only that and nothing else." Your solution is, of course, a time machine for "fact-finding missions".

You are trying to pick and choose which sources meet your expedient definition of historical fact. Strange, isn't it, that the only sources meeting that definition are the ones you use to support your arguments? You're still trying to have it both ways. And you call *me* dishonest.

Clint Knapp
10/25/2015 04:06:30 am

Ah, but disreputable, anonymous amateurs on the other hand; infallible. Got it.

You're a very special snowflake, and should be commended for such brilliant observation and unassailable logic. Have a cookie, a gold star, a pat on the head, and run along now.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 04:10:38 am

My comments about Freemasonry were not based upon opinions and theories, but on verifiable historical facts.

Ask for references, I'll provide them.
They will be free from theories and opinions.

Only Me
10/25/2015 04:21:34 am

You're contradicting yourself again!

Why would I accept your references, or your assurance "They will be free from theories and opinions"? You said:

[Any archaeologist or historian worth their salt would own up to the fact that they are short on their databases...]

Now you're suggesting YOUR OWN STATEMENT isn't true. That means you lied. It also means no time machine is required for "fact-finding missions". Or is this more of your tendency to exclude your sources from the shortcomings plaguing the works of all other historians?

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 07:50:56 am

Terrible crackpot rubbish from Only Me who is clearly upset about the information being given about Freemasonry, that is not a product of a conspiracy theory like that person envisaged.

An Over-Educated Grunt
10/25/2015 07:59:23 am

Hodor, Hodor, Hodor.

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 08:04:13 am

HODOR HODOR HODOR, you Over-Ignorant Grunt

Only Me
10/25/2015 11:48:04 am

Poor, poor Nobody Knows.

You're clearly upset I called you out on your contradictions and spanked your butt with them. Critical thinking is a BITCH, isn't it?

Having lost face, now you try to assign a motivation to me that can't be supported. Please, prove where I have said your information is the result of a conspiracy theory. You won't be able to do so.

Poor, poor Nobody Knows.

Mark L
10/25/2015 12:44:57 pm

Hey, gravity's just a theory, man

Nobody Knows
10/25/2015 02:54:05 pm

Only Me,

In future I will concentrate on just posting primary source documents.

You won't be able to dismiss that in a hurry, and at the same time the place of Freemasonry within history will be demonstrably proven.

And it won't be theory or opinion.

Mobody Knows
10/25/2015 02:55:18 pm

Mark L.

And 2+2 = 4


Only Me
10/25/2015 05:11:10 pm

Nobody Knows, I'm dismissing your assertion that ALL archaeologists and historians are lacking in material, resulting in their body of work being *nothing more* than opinions and theories. I'm also dismissing your assertion that only YOUR sources are infallible.

You cannot make an exception for your sources after making an all-encompassing assertion that includes the very authors who produced your sources. Your claim to Masonic history could very well be true, but you undermined your own case with a glaring contradiction. You made a mistake, but we all do that. Learn from it and let's move on.

Irna link
10/24/2015 01:34:43 pm

"almost all of their sources on geology were Soviet texts published in the 1960s": worse, their main source is the theosophist Helena Blavatski!
"The authors of the report have another point of view in considering the problem. We have taken the GES age such as it was indicated by theosophist Yelena Blavatskaya in one of her basic works (1937). She wrote: “Notice the indestructible witness of evolution of Human races, from Divine, and especially Androgynous race, the Egyptian Sphinx, that mystery of centuries”. According to Blavatskaya the time of GES erection should exceed 750000 years. Are there some geological indications which are evidence for such an old age of the Sphinx?"
Did you say 'scientific method'?

Reply
Jason Colavito link
10/24/2015 02:09:11 pm

I don't know how I missed that... I'll blame it on the Russian transliteration. I'll add that in above. Thanks!

Reply
Clete
10/24/2015 03:03:54 pm

I used their same reasoning this morning. I went outside, I picked up my mail, I noticed, by looking at my sidewalk that it was wet. I concluded from this evidence that it must have rained. I am a scientific genius.

Reply
Only Me
10/24/2015 03:37:13 pm

Actually, if you had used their methods accurately, you would have seen the moisture as proof your sidewalk is a surviving Neolithic road inspired by Atlantean survivors. :)

Reply
V
10/24/2015 03:23:48 pm

This also completely ignores the known and amply demonstrated fact that sand in large quantities can and does act like waves in water do, albeit more slowly. And by "amply demonstrated," I mean that we need only look at the Sahara Desert. Which--oh my goodness!--includes EGYPT! Gasp and shock!

Yet more evidence that fringeys didn't pay attention in school, since this is a fact I learned in 9th grade Earth and Space studies.

Reply
Only Me
10/24/2015 03:45:25 pm

Well, one of them specializes in metals testing, which has calibrated his eyes sufficiently to determine the Sphinx's true age through visual inspection alone.

Hold on, that sounds suspiciously like a certain "forensic geologist" we all know...especially the reliance on 1960's material pertaining to history.

Reply
Kevin
10/24/2015 04:59:17 pm

Jason, I bit off topic, but there is a Bigfoot Expo in CHAUTAUQUA, N.Y (between Erie, PA and Buffalo, NY). What started out in Washington State is now in western New York. Before long he is going to be at your door !!!!

Reply
An Over-Educated Grunt
10/24/2015 05:34:20 pm

Even further off topic, "Bigfoot Chautauqua" would be a great band name, or paranormal lecture series.

Reply
Nobody Knows
10/24/2015 07:55:51 pm

"Backdoor dealings" would be too boring.

Jamie Eckles link
10/25/2015 01:20:04 pm

"I note the word "probability" in the very first sentence of Mark Lehner's article. It's an opinion."

You don't have a clue who Mark Lehner is, do you? He spent 15 years working in Egypt doing the kinds of field work "theorists" can only dream of. Oh, and by the way, he initially went there on behalf of Edgar Cayce's ARE wanting to prove the claim there was a library hidden underneath. Instead, spending about a decade and a half learning real Egyptology, he came away knowing how brilliant and talented the ancient Egyptians were, and how it's a no brainer that they did construct all those monuments and pyramids. No aliens or ancient civilizations needed.

Reply
The troll Krampus
10/25/2015 02:01:55 pm

How can you, Nobody Knows, erm, excuse me, Hermes, tell the difference between "fact" and "opinion"? That is a serious question.

Reply
Kal
10/25/2015 09:35:54 pm

"The machine that shocks you in the balls."

Fact, a proven test, or possibly, an established and education opinion based on provable experiment. Gravity is provable and is also called a theory.

Opinion, an established editorial with some experiment, usually 2 sources of credible nature.

The Sphinx is probably as old as the reign of Kufru. That would be about right, in some opinions and such.

Reply
The Grim
10/27/2015 03:40:20 am

I hate that fake lying show ancient aliens, giants and all the other fake history bs!

Reply
terry the censor
11/3/2015 07:48:37 pm

So "Hermes/Nobody Knows" has decided to hijack every comment section on this blog?

Great...

Reply
Dave Bean
5/11/2016 06:35:37 pm

You're all wrong. According to Graham Hancock in Fingerprints of the Gods, the Sphinx can be dated to 10500 bc. Someone used a computer program which took the precession of the stars back in time. They found that the Sphinx is looking in the exact direction of Orions Belt as it rises above the horizon on the summer solstice 10500 bc. As you know the Pyramids are layed out in a way that matches exactly the 3 stars of Orions belt as they would have been seen in the sky on the same day.

Reply
duendek
7/24/2016 04:18:01 pm

SO in other words, more guess work.

Reply

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