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Would Medieval Welsh Explorers Really Threaten American Sovereignty?

2/19/2013

21 Comments

 
Tomorrow I hope to present a completely different topic in fake history, but for today I have one more thing to say about America Unearthed S01E09 “Motive for Murder.”

I’ll be honest with you: I’ve never been terribly interested in the idea of Welsh visitors to North America, but last Friday I heard for the first time on America Unearthed the apparently not uncommon claim that Welsh incursions into pre-Columbian America “threaten the legitimacy of the United States.” Since that is a very serious claim, it deserves a more sustained response than I had time to provide in my review of that episode.

Let’s begin with the most interesting aspect, at least for me, of the recent claims for Welsh exploration of the American interior. On America Unearthed we heard that the Welsh supposedly arrived in America in the sixth century CE. This is astonishing because the traditional claims for Welsh exploration are dated to 1170 CE (some sources say 1160), when Welsh nationalists claim that Prince Madoc sailed westward from Wales and discovered America. The earliest reference to the story was told by Maredudd ap Rhys in the fifteenth century (before the discovery of America, and including no details recognizable as America). In Maredudd's poem, Madoc is referenced in a single line as traveling "to the sea." Scholars conjecture that an oral version, perhaps based on the Voyage of St. Brendan, once existed. Only after English colonization began did the Elizabethans begin expanding on the Madoc story, giving rise to the legend of Welsh colonization.

So why has this moved to the sixth century, when there is no literary warrant? One reason is that this is the alleged time of King Arthur, who is often claimed to be Welsh and who is recorded as having sailed to the west (to Iceland) in Geoffrey of Monmouth and therefore is a much more famous sponsor of the Welsh than Madoc. The second reason is that the Vikings have been confirmed to have been in America, at L’anse-aux-Meadows around 1000, predating Madoc’s alleged voyage by nearly two centuries. Welsh partisans have to move them back in time to maintain their primacy, despite the lack of any sixth-century evidence.

In 1568, a Scotsman named David Ingram made the first claim of meeting Welsh-speaking Natives, in the Caribbean, though his claim was not published until 1582. The first Welsh-speaking person to make such a claim was One Stedman who met supposedly Welsh-speaking Natives somewhere on the eastern seaboard in 1670. These Welsh, however, were apparently not related to the Madoc expedition or anything earlier, since they allegedly told Stedman about their ancestry in what they called by the Welsh name for Great Britain, a term not used until after 1603. Subsequent encounters with “Welsh” Indians occurred in South Carolina in the mid-1600s.

Now here is the important part: These reports were published by the Royal Society in London and were widely accepted throughout England and Wales as true prior to the American Revolution. And England raised no objection based on “Welsh” land claims. Further:

  • In 1843, a British subject, Sir W. Stewart, published an account of discovering “Welsh” Indians in the Rocky Mountains, and England made no objection to Mexican control of them (eventually ceded to the United States in 1848) based on this “Welsh” land claim.
  • In 1876, the governor of the state of New York, Morgan Lewis, published a book advocating the discovery of America by the Welsh in 1170. Again, England raised no objections despite this endorsement by an American official.

You might also be interested to know that many British authors of the era asserted that the Welsh actually founded the Aztec Empire and were themselves the Aztec. Again, Britain did not dispute Spain’s control of Mexico on this basis, nor did they claim that the Spanish conquest of the Aztec was illegitimate as a result of the racial makeup of the Aztec.

Now why is that? Well, I can’t speak to the Mexican claims, but in the case of the United States, it’s because Britain wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on. The governing law in this case is the Treaty of Paris (1783) signed between the United States and Britain to end the Revolutionary War. In that treaty, America and Britain agreed upon terms demarcating the dividing line between the United States and British North America. As you can see, the treaty was quite explicit that Britain surrendered all claims formerly held by the Crown to the new country within its territorial boundaries:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

The treaty then spells out the boundaries of the new country, which included all the territory south of Canada, north of the Spanish dominions, and east of the Mississippi. This includes all the land that the Welsh were believed in those days to have explored, including South Carolina, Virginia, and—if you were to believe the Brandenburg Stone—the land now called Kentucky. Because everyone alive in those days believed that any Welsh exploration began in the eastern United States and expanded westward (as it must have done since one must travel through the east to get west of the Mississippi if one first travels from Wales across the Atlantic). Consequently, with the passage of all “territorial rights” of “every part” of the former colonies to the American government, any Welsh claims to territory west of the Mississippi passed therefore to the United States since they would have been an extension of any original Welsh claim to territory stretching from South Carolina westward.

Picture
Map of the U.S. in 1783, showing that Britain had given up claims to the lands "claimed" by the Welsh.
Further, this is entirely contingent upon the recognition of any Welsh Indians as legitimate heirs and descendants of the Welsh. Now, I’m not an expert in medieval law, so what follows is somewhat conjectural, and I’m sure there is a medievalist or two among my readers who will help out if I’ve gotten something seriously wrong.

To start, let’s get a few basic facts: Wales was an independent principality until 1228, when England conquered it and made it part of the Kingdom of England. At that point, all Welsh territory and claims passed to England. In 1535-1542, England integrated Wales into the English legal system, and all Welsh laws thereafter conformed to English law. There is no record of Wales granting a charter to any American colony, let alone one that permitted them to legislate for themselves, so the “Welsh” settlement in America would presumably have been either (a) governed by Welsh and then English law, or (b) independent of Wales and therefore subject to the right of conquest. Let’s start with the first option.

By 1809, it is highly doubtful that any court would have ruled that the alleged Welsh Indians were legitimate heirs since the first generation was not likely conceived in a legal, recognized marriage (and none after the death of last clergyman on the expedition) and therefore illegitimate and unable to inherit property under English law. This issue is complicated a bit due to common-law marriages and Welsh bastard laws. Common-law marriages were forbidden by the Catholic Church after 1215, reinstated by the Protestants, and abolished again in England in 1753 and Wales in 1800 but legal in the United States. Theoretically, common law marriages would have been valid in “Welsh” America before 1215, but not after, since the Welsh who arrived in 1170  would have been, by definition, Catholics and subject to the canon law. Thus, legally, there would have been a break in marriage continuity after 1215 (there being no legally appointed Catholic bishop to consecrate new priests to announce marriages), though I have no idea what allowances civil law would have made for their ignorance of the changes in canon law. 

(The revised date of the sixth century for the Welsh in America complicates this slightly since there is an outside chance of pagan/Druid travelers, but Christianity was by and large the religion of Wales by 600.)

Further, Wales had a special illegitimacy law that allowed for Welsh fathers to pass property to any child, bastard or not, whom he formally acknowledged.  This right was in effect in 1170, but it expired in 1535-1542, when England incorporated Wales into the English legal system, after conquering the principality in 1228. England would not have recognized Welsh bastards as legitimate heirs (except for first born bastard sons who could inherit if and only if a second son was born in wedlock) until 1926, when retroactive legitimization was enacted by Parliament. Again, I don’t know what allowances were made for the ignorance of the Welsh colonists, but upon the conquest of Wales, all Welsh dependencies passed to the English Crown. 

That brings us to the second option: Perhaps the colony considered itself independent of Wales. In that case, its land claims would not have passed to England, but neither would the colony itself. As an independent state, it would have lost all claims to the land upon the failure of its government. Even if the Mandan were the legitimate successors of the independent Welsh-American state, they would have been subject to the same right of conquest as any other Native polity, just as actually happened. Their historical claims would have carried no more weight than those of the Cherokee, the Iroquois, or any other group. The defunct Welsh-American state would have had the same legal standing as the fallen city of Cahokia, the Anasazi ruins, or Poverty Point: none. 

While we think of Europeans as simply conquering Native peoples without respect to their rights, the Europeans actually made a show of following a strict legalism involving reading out proclamations, signing treaties, etc. in order to legitimize their conquests, even if the Natives had no idea what they were hearing or signing. Consequently, from an 1809 legal point of view, if the Mandan (or any other tribe) were the legal successors of the Welsh-American state, they had no more right to a land claim than any other Native group and could be deprived of any and all lands by treaty, as eventually happened.

Isn’t real history fun? 
21 Comments
Janiece Stamper
2/19/2013 07:44:20 am

I love this line, even being a descendent of one of the lovely Welsh! Janiece

Reply
J.
2/19/2013 10:22:40 am

Your second point here is the most salient, I think. By 1704, the blood quantum laws were in effect, so anyone who was so integrated with native tribes as Welsh explorers from 1100 years prior would be legally considered indistinguishable from that tribe in the colonies/United States.

Something that hasn't been mentioned in these discussions is just how Welsh/Irish sailors would have arrived at the continental United States in the first place. As far as St. Brendan's concerned, he wasn't actually sailing. The legend goes that he just cast out in the boat and let the current/God take him where it/he would. It was a test of faith. And if you look at a map of the North Atlantic currents, if Brendan was just drifting along, the first land mass the current would take him to is Iceland. Then Greenland. Then northern Canada. There would have been infinite opportunity to disembark from the journey long before reaching the coastal Mid Atlantic of the United States, and probably infinite reason to.

This goes for Welsh sailors as well. Even if they're using sails and not just drifting along at the whim of the infinite, they most likely would have followed a similar path as ocean-going Vikings, because that's the easiest and safest path -- follow currents and stick close to coasts in case something happens and you need supplies/food/shelter. So Iceland is the first stop, then Greenland, then Canada.

I've heard/read in the past the claim that Madoc made two voyages, both of which drew him into the Gulf of Mexico and then up the Mississippi. On the first voyage his group was attacked so severely he had to turn back. On the second voyage he made it farther up river, possibly up the Ohio and over towards Brandenburg, Kentucky, and explored for a while until they were again turned back by the natives.

Set aside whether it's true or not; there's still the issue of how those voyages made it to the Gulf of Mexico in ships that could make it across the ocean. As far as I know, the claims are that they were using coracles/currachs, which are those round boats used in ancient Wales and Ireland. They weren't sailing an ocean-going multi-masted carrack like the Santa Maria. That's okay, but it means they would have been more likely following currents and coastlines, like the Vikings (who were much more skilled sailors than the Welsh and Irish back in the day). This means we'd have to believe Madoc and his crew went from Wales to around Ireland, then Iceland, then to Greenland, then all the way down the east coast of continental North America, bypassing the Hudson Strait, the Gulf of St. Lawrence, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Cape Cod Bay, the Bay of Fundy, Long Island Sound, the Chesapeake Bay, Albemarle and Pamlico Sound in North Carolina, all the flat coastal farmable land from South Carolina past Georgia and the entire east coast of Florida, through the Florida Keys, then all the way up to the Mississippi Delta, and then decide to sail up an unknown and uncharted river into unknown territory with uncertain prospects. If it's all about adventure into the unknown, they had every opportunity to do that thousands of miles back.

Occam's Razor or common sense has to take precedent here: If we accept that Madoc made TWO voyages all the way to the Mississippi Delta, then he had to use such a large navy that they most definitely would have left some kind of archeological footprint. Otherwise, it's far more likely that if Madoc made any trans-Atlantic voyages, those voyages would have followed a similar path as the Viking voyages that skirted Ireland, Iceland, Greenland, and then Northern Canada. Perhaps he did make that voyage, and if that's the case, he most likely was turned back before making it to the Gulf of Mexico, and the natives that turned him back were most likely coastal Arctic and Subarctic Paleo-Eskimo hunter-gatherers, or maybe some Algonquin-speaking Woodlands tribes near the Atlantic coast -- but not the Mandan or any other continental tribe. To claim Madoc made it to the Mississippi without any other significant contact would be like claiming the Romans made it to Britain without anything happening in Gaul.

Reply
David Salter
3/16/2014 05:43:58 am

I have artifacts that support the 6th century voyages. Including but not limited to a talisman with the tribal leader of the Mobile Bay Indians or possibly Cherokee of NW Georgia and what is most likely Madoc or King Arthur. The stone appears to share geology of the Coosa River area in Alabama. I have grey pottery (unfired) that I am still looking for the source of the clay. The pottery is very old and possibly european. I have a bronze coin that is very similar to late Roman/Byzantine period coins but as yet have not been able to conclusively identify it. One remarkable thing on the carved stone is the presence of a Byzantine cross in the indian's headress. I suspect a major rewrite in the history books in the next ten years is likely.

Reply
jenk
2/19/2013 12:19:54 pm

Yes im welsh native american i have a panel of a barn the first barn built by my famaliy in america the wood panel has two spirals on it with leaves like vines its so old its petririedwood my family passes it
down from father to son i live in louisiana there is a story about cross lake and that one of the conceastadoors bodies was bound and sunken to the botton of the lake the story is so maine steam it was in shcool text book when i was a kid. I have lived on crosslake my whole life and there are parts of the lake that are man made and parts that are natural canals well one summer it got so hot the canals dried up and i saw what look like the tip of a viking boat sticking out of the mud but iwas just a kid now think it was spanish built i do remember exaclty were is saw this and do have a little proof all the streets in the area are named after nativeamericans around the lake but there is one called dasoto street

Reply
jenk
2/19/2013 12:23:16 pm

Will gladly give you blood sample if you can proove my family was here before the brittish

Reply
J.
2/19/2013 01:49:21 pm

My wife is a quarter-Ojibwe and half-Welsh. What the hell does that prove today? Some of her ancestry was Native American, and some was Welsh. That's all.

Reply
intelligentheating
2/19/2013 01:46:37 pm

The whole discussion about 600CE is interesting as well. There are a number of things we can also consider:

1.) 'Welsh' in 600CE meant something fairly different from today. The term derives from the Anglo-Saxon word 'Wealas' which is translated into modern English to mean 'foreigner' or 'stranger'.

The term was used by the A/S peoples to refer to the post Romano-British Brythonic speaking peoples (with Rome leaving Britain in 410). By 600CE as Jason mentions they were for the most part Christianized and the saxons were on their way as well (we had the Celtic church for example, Synod of Whitby in 663 in the Anglian kingdom of Northumbria and so forth).

During this period there wasn't really a Wales as we have today, but many vying post Romano-British kingdoms that were locked in war with each other, The Scots (who were settling Caledonia from Ireland) and the Germanic peoples coming from across the North Sea.

As the Scots and Germanic peoples gained control of the former Roman province and the land North of Hadrian's Wall (Caledonia) the pockets of Brythonic peoples geographic areas in English acquired some derivative of the word 'Wealas' in their name for example Cornwall and Wales.

So it is certainly possible that any possible Kingdom that said Welshmen arrived from ceased to exist (for example Strathclyde, Rheged, Gododdin etc.) in which case - who would the claim then pass too?

For example check this map up, these were approximately the Kingdoms that made up Britannia and Caledonia in 600 CE.

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/maps/600_kingdoms.html

2.) Since AU is fond of its theories, here is one of mine. Is it not also possible that the stories of Welsh colonists moving West is also a just a mythic/corrupted version of the migration of Brythonic speaking peoples to Brittany in North West France - known in Roman times as Armorica - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica.
At least you could see how folks stories could be derived from the above in my opinion.

3.) For anyone interested, these site has some interesting information on the ships of the post-Roman period in use by the Saxons, Scots and Britons:

http://dark-age-boats.co.uk/britishromanboats.php

Just my 2c worth!




Reply
J.
2/19/2013 04:24:53 pm

Those are some interesting points, but as far as #1 goes, there's one problem: Most accounts about the Welsh going to America stem from the story of Madoc, who was from Gwynedd (northern Wales; his father Owain Gwynedd was the first Prince of Wales). The first attestation in the record comes from the mid-15th century from a poet from Powys, so I think we're safe assuming that the legend refers to the Cymry, the people from the Cambrian Mountains and east.

But you're right about Brythonic-speaking people all over the island. There's even some speculation that the model for Merlin (Welsh: Myrddin) came from Gwenddoleu in Southern Scotland. And that leads to another problem in sourcing tales/folklore/myths -- a lot of cross-polination. Jason already noted that the story of Madoc has plenty in common with the Voyage of Saint Brendan, which itself has echoes of the earlier Voyage of Bran (pre-Christian but recorded by Christian monks), and THAT has echoes from other Irish mythology. So unless you have a definite thread of historicity to follow, these stories become kind of a tangled web of influence.

One example that demonstrates this is the Red Hand of Ulster (Irish) and Chirk Castle (Welsh). Short version: Once upon a time in ye olde pagan days, Ulster had no heir, so it was decided there would be a boat race across a lake (probably Strangford Lough) and whoever touched the opposite shore first would be the heir. Depending on the version, it was either an Ui Neill or Niall of the Nine Hostages who cut off his own right hand and threw it onto the shore, winning the race. The red hand was on the Ulster flag for years, and is still on lots of Ulster sports teams crests. The story may go back as far as the 5th century.

As for Chirk Castle (Wales), the lord of the castle was dying and had two twin sons who were feuding. To decide who would inherit the castle, he held a horserace between them around the castle -- the first son to get back and touch their father's deathbed would inherit the land. One of the sons tripped going up the stairs to the deathbed, and realizing he'd lose, cut off his own hand and threw it on their father's bed, winning the lands. That story goes back to at least to the 13th century, but it's also attested to at yet another Welsh castle, Powis Castle.

One other problem: The ancient Celts were oral cultures, great with the poetry but not big on writing it down (bards were thought to be almost supernatural for this ability; the Scottish Myrddin was a bard). So which came first? Did a Brythonic oral tale make its way over to Ireland and also pop up later with regard to two Welsh castles? Or did it originate in Ireland and make its way over the channel to Wales? Or is there a third, earlier story that influenced both cultures? Likewise, did the Voyage of Saint Brendan derive from the Voyage of Bran, or did both derive from earlier myths, and did the story of Madoc come from one of those, or from some third earlier source that similiarly influenced the Voyage of Bran and the Voyage of Saint Brendan?

These things get very, very tricky; accepting one of those stories as history is risky at best, and likely misses the point of the story in the first place. (I'm not saying YOU'RE missing the point of any story, but people who read such stories as history are most likely missing the point.)

Reply
intelligentheating
2/20/2013 12:39:59 am

J,

My points in 1. are directly in response to the show using the 600CE date - I'm really not sure where they got this date from either :)?
As you say the Madoc tales come from the 12th C so I can only guess they were doing as Jason suggested and sort of trying to lump the Arthurian side of things into this.

But then this show has a really poor grasp of the transitions of kingdoms and peoples that inhabit a geographic area, and tends to apply modern definitions (e.g. Welsh, English) to historical peoples whose understanding of those terms might have been fairly different.

You make some interesting points on the oral traditions/bards. Within the A/S cultures of the same time period, the oral tradition was also the main method of passing down stories (via the scop pronounced 'shop'). Like the Celtic peoples, Christianisation brought with it the power of the pen, so we start to see these stories written down with a christian slant (for example Beowulf).

I have no doubt that many of these stories are a result in cross-pollination. Irish monks were busy in the British Isles spreading the gospels, so it is not improbable that some Brythonic legends are derived from earlier Scoti ones brought by Monks across the Irish sea.
I think there is an old Cornish tale that talks of the Irish monks landing there.

You also make a great point about reading historical texts as historical narratives. Gildas in my opinion is a prime example of that.

I've been watching with some interest the back and forth between those who suggest that the A/S peoples came in much smaller numbers than thought and essentially took over the positions of power (much as the Normans did) versus those who propose that the Brythonic peoples were wiped out and driven to the West (as Gildas alludes too).

This has brought in experts from a variety of fields including genetics now.
What a shame the History channel could't do a show on that - an area where academics disagree on how to interpret the data that has been amassed from a variety of disciplines!

I live in hope :).

J.
2/20/2013 07:35:58 am

intelligentheating,

With regard to whether there was a slow Anglo-Saxon invasion or a blitzkrieg wipe-out, I believe most of the latest genetic testing shows that it was more or less an assimilation, not a genocide as previously believed. There was a cultural erasure, but most of the people were basically living among and then with each other -- just under the conqueror's language, rules and culture. There was more than just taking over positions of power -- there was colonization -- but it wasn't in enough numbers to either fully displace the Celtic Britons or warrant ethnic cleansing. Better to keep them around as farmers and laborers to lord over.

The thing the Anglo-Saxons had going for them over the Celts was organization. Before the Romans arrived, and again during the Anglo-Saxon invasion, the different Celtic tribes were generally fighting with each other The various tribes would gladly work with the invader if the invader would help them against another tribe, and they only really formed political coalitions when they faced an existential threat (Boudica's revolt).

Among scholars, the term "Celt" is rather fraught, and the contemporary version of it is more or less a 19th century construction (thanks, Yeats!). There were shared cultural traits and languages, similar approaches to how they lived, but not much in the way of shared political power among tribes. So it wasn't hard for the Angles, Saxons and Jutes to divide and conquer because they were already pretty willingly divided. In a way, it's similar to what the English and French did with a number of Native American tribes, forming alliances with the tribes when it suited both while exploiting the tribe's weaknesses.

The in-fighting state of affairs still exists in Ireland if you follow sports over there -- the Leinster and Munster fans are each other's worst enemies. Half the country thinks Ronan O'Gara is Irish rugby's savior, and half thinks he's Irish rugby's assassin.

Christopher Randolph
2/19/2013 06:59:26 pm

Wales is still working on re-establishing a claim to Wales!

Who else should we fear claiming the US, the Bavarian Free State? Sikkim, the Tuvans, Sicily? Genoa, maybe the Austro-Hungarian Empire..? I hope Wolter sent a telegram to President Harding about the impending danger,

Reply
Coridan Miller
2/20/2013 02:18:06 am

There's certainly more legitimate claims to deal with http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

Reply
J.
2/20/2013 06:53:43 am

"Wales is still working on re-establishing a claim to Wales!"

Ha! You're right!

Reply
Alan
5/13/2013 05:28:42 pm

Small correction, England has not been a sovereign nation since the Acts of Union in 1707. I think you mean the 'United Kingdom', 'Great Britain' or 'Britain' when you say 'England', at least after 1707.

Reply
Jason Colavito link
5/13/2013 11:29:27 pm

Yes, you're right. Apologies.

Reply
Roberto
11/3/2013 04:23:32 pm

Hey all of you there, this land belongs native americans and most of the south to Mexico period! We were here before, nothing to be discovered or claimed as their land (Welsh or any other anglo civilization). Yes, there ware ethnic cleansing and not asimalation of culture as some of you claim, that is totally sick. So, get over putos invaders!

Reply
Jeff Lewin
8/11/2014 03:01:56 am

The legal implications are intriguing, however, legal principles do not file litigation against each other, plaintiffs, defendants, and attorneys wrangle out such issues before judges. At this stage, I am unsure whether there are any judges who would accept such information as a basis for a suit asserting territorial claims of Native American tribes.

Reply
earl Williams
8/14/2014 04:53:48 pm

here is a log book at Yale University by Christopher Columbus that states he was sailing into the waters of Madoc of Wales who came before him!

Reply
JaredMithrandir link
9/24/2015 03:59:54 am

Many believe it was actually a Madoc of 56 AD is came to America

Reply
JaredMithrandir link
4/5/2016 05:33:00 am

I meant 560

Reply
Barddas Badass
8/18/2020 10:24:45 am

Who are these "many", and what evidence do they give as to why they believe this?


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