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Graham Hancock: Indonesian Site May Be Part of Atlantis

1/29/2014

24 Comments

 
Yesterday the Huffington Post released one of its periodic excursions into ancient astronauts. Ex-New York Post gossip editor, current Playboy writer, and bestselling novelist Paula Froelich visited the National Museum of Art in Iraq. What did she take away from her trip? Aliens.

_
But what bothers me is that Froelich is now a travel writer who won a medal from the travel writers’ professional organization, yet to judge from this piece her approach to other cultures is apparently to divorce them from context and interpret them through the lens of her own media-created ideas.

This goofiness pales beside the claims coming out of Indonesia for a lost super-civilization, which I learned from an article by Martin Clemens has become Graham Hancock’s new “evidence” for a lost civilization on the order of Atlantis. In a recent piece Hancock reported on the claims coming from the Indonesian government that the site of Gunung Padang, a megalithic construction atop a hill on the island of Java, dates back to the Ice Age.

The visible megaliths atop the hill sit above organic material radiocarbon dated to 1500-500 BCE, a bit older than the consensus Western time frame for the site of 500-1500 CE but younger than the Indonesian government estimate of 2500 BCE. However, Indonesian government geologist Danny Natawidjaja says that his team’s work in 2011 drilled into the hill and found rocks, organic material, and possible cement that had radiocarbon dates back to 22,000 BCE. The dated organic samples were not associated with artifacts and therefore are dependent on the hypothesis that the entire hill is an artificial construction.

Natawidjaja claims that archaeologists rejected his findings and are close-minded and unscientific compared to geologists.  “I've already got myself into a lot of hot water with this,” he told Hancock. “My case is a solid one, based on good scientific evidence, but it's not an easy one. I'm up against deeply entrenched beliefs.” Natawidjaja has yet to provide evidence that the material extracted from within the hill was placed their artificially or was ever a single, exceedingly ancient construction—as opposed to a “tell,” a large mound created by thousands of years of successive occupation. His evidence is a geophysical survey using ground-penetrating radar, which he says shows in clear detail each stone of a massive, artificial pyramid.

He did not provide these images and instead asserted that they showed a pyramid built in a style comparable to “the pyramids of Egypt.”

As I reported almost exactly a year ago in evaluating Frank Joseph’s claims for the same site, these claims are highly suspect for several reasons. First, Western archaeologists believe that the site is not a pyramid but a natural volcanic mound and that its architecture ties to similar sites built between 500 and 1500 CE (a statue found at the site was inscribed with a date of 1341 CE, though this only indicates it was still in use in that year). Second, the radiocarbon tests were on organic material from within the hill not associated with any artifacts or megaliths. Third, the Indonesian government official ultimately overseeing the investigation is a known believer in fringe theories about Ice Age civilizations, and Indonesia has been actively working to discount Chinese claims to greater antiquity by promoting Indonesia as an older font of civilization.

Even non-Western Indonesian archaeologists such as Ali Akbar of the University of Indonesia cautioned that radar images and a core sample are not enough to prove an artificial construction. Natawidjaja told Hancock, in a roundabout way, that he agrees and plans to dig into the hill this year if the government permits it. Local archaeologists are currently lobbying the government to protect the site from further disturbance, but Natawidjaja sees this as efforts to suppress his work. Natawidjaja is apparently the Indonesian Scott Wolter, but with more power. He claims that archaeologists are in a conspiracy against him to protect their dogma about the site’s age.

Natawidjaja told Hancock that he believes (but of course) that Plato preserved evidence of this pre-Ice Age civilization in his description of Atlantis, whose alleged demise around 9500 BCE Hancock calls an “uncanny coincidence” when compared to the end of the Younger Dryas around 9500 BCE, which melted the glaciers of the Ice Age. Natawidjaja says he is certain an advanced civilization existed in the Ice Age, and Hancock speculates that the Gunung Padang “pyramid” could contain the Hall of Records of Atlantis, a concept that exists only in the psychic readings of Edgar Cayce and other channeled fringe literature. (Funny, it used to be under the Sphinx when Hancock last went looking for it, in Messages of the Sphinx/Keeper of Genesis [1997]).

But what I find fascinating is Hancock’s subtle announcement about his plans for his “sequel” to Fingerprints of the Gods (actually, the fourth or fifth in the series). If Fingerprints was a none-too-subtle rewriting of Ignatius Donnelly’s Atlantis: The Antediluvian World (1882), his sequel will be an apparently close paraphrase of Donnelly’s Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel (1883). Donnelly, in that book, proposed that a comet had hit the earth around 11,000 BCE, destroying an advanced civilization, and remembered only dimly in legend as the cause of fires, poison gases, and the Great Flood: “the so-called Glacial Age really represents a collision of the earth with one of these wandering luminaries of space.”

Compare that to Hancock:
Since 2007, however, masses of scientific evidence have come to light that have identified the smoking gun for me in the form of a comet that broke into multiple fragments now known to have hit the earth 12,980 years ago. The impacts (some on the North American ice cap, some elsewhere) caused floods and tidal waves and threw a vast cloud of dust into the upper atmosphere that enshrouded the entire earth for more than a thousand years, preventing the sun's rays from reaching the surface, and setting off the Younger Dryas deep freeze. (emphasis in original)

And where did Donnelly place his comet strike? Oh, right: The North American ice cap.

As for geology, well the so-called Younger Dryas Boundary Event is still controversial, and the evidence for a comet strike being the main cause of the end of the Younger Dryas is not nearly as conclusive as Hancock asserts. It may have happened that way, or it might not. Currently, critics seem to have the upper hand in pointing to serious problems with the hypothesis. (I could link individually to criticisms, but Wikipedia, for all its faults, has a good list in its references.) Hancock wants us to believe that Gunung Padang and Göbekli Tepe in Turkey are remnants of this Ice Age civilization, despite the challenges of explaining how Göbekli Tepe could be part of what we think of as urban “civilization” in a culture that lacked agriculture or permanent settlements.

Bonus trivia: Edmond Halley, of comet fame, proposed the idea first, in 1694, in arguing that a comet caused the Great Flood and destroyed antediluvian civilization.
24 Comments
Tara Jordan link
1/29/2014 07:28:02 am

Paula is a friend of mine :(

Reply
Irna link
1/29/2014 07:40:28 am

Radiocarbon dating: it seems to be here the same problem as with the Bosnian "pyramids"! When you make a radiocarbon datation of various organic elements *without any archaeological context*, you cannot know what you're dating exactly, and cannot draw any archaeological conclusion... That's how Osmanagic in Bosnia obtained a dozen dates from 3000 BCE to 34000 BCE for his "pyramid", none of which has any significance...

Reply
Shane Sullivan
1/29/2014 07:43:05 am

Oh, Mr. Hancock, you silly goose; Atlantis was in that Atlantic, nowhere near Indonesia.

Gunung Padang is clearly a remnant of Mu.

Reply
Shane Sullivan
1/29/2014 05:22:48 pm

Argh.

THE Atlantic.

Reply
BP
1/30/2014 02:46:48 am

It's a suburb of Atlantis.

The Other J.
1/30/2014 03:03:05 am

The Justified Ancients of Mu have a response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnlbUz7XOtk

Reply
Mario Duran
2/9/2014 07:36:46 pm

I like this one better...
http://youtu.be/RPjggN-KByI

Only Me
1/29/2014 08:07:55 am

I suppose the continuing existence of the Atlantis/Mu/One World Origin hypotheses is due to the inherent mystery of site like Gunung Padang and Gobekli Tepe. What would possess the builders to make them, and in the case of Gobekli Tepe, bury it before abandoning it, unlike similar sites? I think it was stated here before that when the door is left open, all manner of speculation abounds.

Also, how does one correlate the radiocarbon date with the estimated age of a megalithic structure, without going to far back or forward? The core samples have disparate ranges, so how is one chosen over the others?

Reply
A. J. West link
1/29/2014 08:11:02 am

I've only heard of this site in brief, so I don't know very much about it at all. But: megalithic architecture (i.e., things made of big rocks) is known from eastern Indonesia, especially Flores, and from western Indonesia too - Nias is probably most famous for using large rocks in buildings and ritual sites. I'd wager that it's associated in some way with speakers of Malayo-Polynesian languages, although it's hard to tell. If that's the case, then I would say that 1500 BCE is not especially early, as it is likely that Java was inhabited by speakers of Nuclear Malayo-Polynesian by that time. The statue isn't so convincing, you're right.

That's just speculation, though. I don't have much of a clue. But certainly the pre-Neolithic, pre-Malayo-Polynesian inhabitants of island Southeast Asia don't seem to have built anything permanent, and while recent archaeological studies do show that pre-Malayo-Polynesian island Southeast Asia was a more complex place than was once thought, and was the origin of several common SE Asian domesticates, it probably wasn't a place where large public building projects were commonplace.

Also, Hancock's claim is, as ever, bizarre.

Reply
Danny Natawidjaja
1/29/2014 11:47:46 am

Here in Indonesia people say that Scott Wolter is the American Danny Natawidjaja!

Reply
Gunn
1/29/2014 12:25:57 pm

Apparently, the up-coming Four Blood Moons will be caused by comet/s, not by eclipses.

The Other J., I once awakened, very startled, back in 1979 or so, by seeing the image of a comet fast approaching from the northeast (living in MI at the time) and suddenly bursting everything around me into a quiet whiteness--essentially white blank nothingness. Pretty weird. I'm telling you about this because you're a dreamer, too, sometimes struggling for just the right word.

Reply
Unamerica Earthed
1/29/2014 04:08:39 pm

Calling Mr. Wolter...time for another vacation with that camera crew...Destination Gunung Padang...it's gonna remind you of some Templar/Mason/Bloodline site in the US...

Reply
The Other J.
1/30/2014 03:31:49 am

One of the interesting angles of the Indonesian story is how archaeology is being recruited for political purposes -- in this case creating an argument for greater antiquity in the face of Chinese hegemony in the region.

That could be a category of its own on this blog, "Politicized Archaeology," where archaeological conclusions are reached for or even manufactured in support of political claims. Andrew Jackson, EVD, Barry Fell and New Zealand's first inhabitants, Natawidjaja and Indonesia, etc. -- there's probably a dissertation to be written on the politicization of fringe archaeology.

Reply
RLewis
1/30/2014 03:36:03 am

It may be more difficult to find fringe ideas that have not been politicized.

Reply
The Other J.
1/30/2014 03:57:14 am

True, broadly, but maybe I should be more clear: I mean ideas that are being directly recruited for material political results either by governmental authorities who by people who use the ideas to appeal to governmental authorities for political results.

I don't think anyone is claiming Nomans Island actually belongs to Norway, but Barry Fell and John Ansell are using the "whites were in New Zealand first" ideas to directly challenge Maori rights established in the Treaty of Waitangi, and Jackson supported U.S. expansion over Indian territories with fringe archaeology. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of -- moves with measurable political results.

An Over-Educated Grunt
1/30/2014 03:44:55 am

I remember reading "Fingerprints" back in the '90s, in high school, and finding it incredibly dull. My daily reading at the time was Bramley, my first swing through Erich von Däniken, and Baigent, Lincoln, and Leigh. Frankly I'm amazed that Graham Hancock is around still, or for that matter he was around to begin with. Of all the crazy fringe claims I read in that period, Hancock's were generally the best-supported (note that I don't say "well-supported"), but perhaps as a result, the least believable. I've never found him a particularly talented story-teller, and in that absence, I wound up looking closer at the evidence, which was not terribly convincing... to a high-school student who was willing to give Baigent & Co. a hearing. That he's still trying to peddle the same story twenty years later, with what feels like recycled evidence, is sad.

One thing I'd like to ask some of these people is: Who benefits? Who benefits from hiding pre-Columbian contact? Who benefits from suppressing history of an ancient civilization? Who benefits from ANY of these supposed academic conspiracies? Certainly not academic archaeologists; as I've said before, you make a big find, and your biggest problem will be keeping it yours. "Victory knows a thousand fathers," and so forth.

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Shane Sullivan
1/30/2014 06:38:15 am

Good question. I recall hearing certain recent fringe authors say that pre-Columbian white contact would be hidden in order to maintain the U.S. government's claim to the country, but as The Other J. pointed out, "white people were here first" can easily be used to *legitimize* such claims.

Hitler tried to do it all over the world.

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The Other J.
1/30/2014 06:05:50 pm

Well, for one, the fringe industry benefits from pushing claims of suppressed pre-Colombian and prehistoric pan-global European contact. Lack of proof is evidence for the cover-up, and what many fringe theorists push as much as their ideas about history are paranoid socio-political theories which also cannot be easily proved; one feeds the other.

This was just shown with Childress and the Grand Canyon - Arizona Gazette story, where Childress pointed to the lack of any supporting documentation about Kincaid and Jordan even existing as evidence of the cover-up, not evidence that perhaps Kincaid and Jordan were made up for a sensational story in an era of sensational made-up newspaper stories.

And the paranoia is a lot sexier than archaeology -- that's the emotional hook that tickles the lizard brain, and inconsistent cracks in the historical theories themselves are often paved over with paranoid mortar. As long as such theorists can consistently point back at the "establishment" as standing in their way, the ideas themselves can shift and adapt to criticisms by changing their positions or premises (like Childress again first denouncing ancient astronauts and now being a talking head on AA).

The end result is a tidy little cottage industry of books, docudramas and speaking appearances that must be lucrative enough to keep these people in the game for decade after decade, tripping all over the globe for research, such as it is. As long as they can appeal to an antagonistic establishment whenever their claims are challenged, they can continue to push the cover-up angle, and that's the emotional hook what gets people through the door. Ever since the 1960's, when some very real conspiracies took place, the Western appetite for conspiratorial narratives has increased in proportion with the entertainment media that could tap into a legitimate sense of fear and just affirm that the audience is right to be afraid, but never fully explain what there is to be afraid of -- because you wouldn't want to dry up your marketing well. That would be telling.

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An Over-Educated Grunt
1/31/2014 01:20:21 am

So we should be afraid of... men. TOP men.

And yes, I can see who benefits from crying conspiracy - I just don't see who benefits from the supposed conspiracy. The fringe industry isn't Woodward and Bernstein, because Watergate was demonstrable, and whatever hoohah David Icke, for instance, is selling today really isn't. It's terribly frustrating, because even if, say, in controlled conditions, you killed Queen Elizabeth II, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama, then conducted an autopsy to prove that they were not reptilians from the eighth dimension, the response is that they were body doubles and you are a tool of the conspiracy. There's no reasoning with it. Once you buy in, you HAVE to buy in, because otherwise, you have to admit that you've spent however long believing in absolute nonsense.

The Other J.
1/31/2014 06:52:21 am

That's just it -- I'm not sure there HAS to be anyone in the narrative of the conspiracy proper who actually benefits. In most conspiracy theories I've heard, the 'cui bono' is left up to nameless, faceless massive entities, like "government" or "military" or "academia" or "the church," who are apparently trying to retain "power" in the face of "the truth." In other words, you'd never actually be able to pin it down like Woodward and Bernstein did following the money. If you named specific beneficiaries, then you could follow up on that and prove the conspiracy true or false -- and conspiracy theories/theorists aren't in the business of putting themselves out of business.

I suspect a large part of why there's no real identifiable beneficiary within the actual conspiracy is related what you said at the end of your comment -- once you've bought in, you can't admit that you've spent so long believing in something that might not be true, so the "truth" is constantly pushed beyond a non-reachable horizon. Which is why if you did the autopsy on Obama or the Queen looking for the reptilian, the believers would say the bodies had been switched.

I'm thinking back to a book I read comprised of articles from the journal Episteme, called 'Conspiracy Theories: The Philosophical Debate.' It's been a while, so my memory may be selective, but after the Kennedy assassinations and all the resultant hand-washing and finger-pointing, conspiracy theories really started to mushroom up in pop culture and mass media. In both Kennedy cases, the 'cui bono' was never identified, at least no to everyone's satisfaction. There were problems with the official explanations all the way down the line, and even if the official stories were technically correct or accepted (single shooter crazed on communism, RFK's support for Israel putting Sirhan Sirhan over the edge), there were enough issues with the investigations to give the public pause and ask how they knew they were getting the right story. That's not necessarily a bad sort of skepticism to have. But the knock-on effect was, for instance, a spate of conspiracy books and films in the 1970's (many of which were fantastic) that re-affirmed the excessive believer's right to be afraid of large, faceless entities running things like governments behind the scenes. Jason would know more about this than me, but I think it was in the 1980's when a shift occurred from semi-official agencies behind the scenes to aliens and even scarier occult groups -- which resulted in Chris Carter's work 'The X-Files' and 'Millennium,' which in turn fueled a new wave of conspiracy theories that took the pop culture as hidden documentary.

It's as if pop culture capitalizes on a fear based in some reality, and once that fear is affirmed in mass media, some people see that as evidence that their suspicions are sound without the need for more evidence. Conspiracy theorists like Jordan Maxwell are known for talking about how Hollywood is 'telling us something,' and that leads to the 'evidence in plain site' line of argument -- so Maxwell and others in that mode see films as telling those with eyes to see and ears to hear the secrets of world power. It seems like an a priori/a posteriori confusion; instead of seeing pop culture as reflecting a narrative thread in the broader culture, they see it as predicting and determining that narrative thread. Then you just get into mirrors-facing-mirrors territory, which is where I think we're at now.

In a way, the whole thing reminds me of the mimetic virus model: A conspiracy theory as a linguistic virus that spreads culturally without the burden of sufficient evidence, the main purpose of which is to sustain itself. Once you start getting into specifics of who benefits in the conspiracy narrative as presented, you offer a way to inoculate the audience against the conspiracy by possibly showing how the beneficiary couldn't possibly benefit (although excessive believers wouldn't accept it). Hence the constant making-vague (vagueing?) of the beneficiary and continually pushing who that beneficiary is over the horizon.

(Sorry this was so long -- didn't expect to write this much. It's a topic I'm pretty interested in.)

J.A. Dickey
1/31/2014 05:46:25 pm

i admit there is a link up between
the cheap schlocky B+W sci-fi flics
of the 1950s and Cold War tensions.
this then fueled a paranoia in real life.

Reply
tm
8/11/2015 08:06:50 pm

Though it's no defense of Graham Hancock, from the few times I've seen Dr. Hawass on TV, I've had the impression it wouldn't take much effort to pick a fight with him.

Reply
john smith
5/3/2017 10:29:35 am

comet comfirmed !

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Feya
11/13/2017 12:55:04 am

well, this is an interesting article. i always believe that sundaland is a lost civilization of Lemuria. based on the geographic structure, culture, and may i remind you during the Ice Age, Sundalan (Indonesia) is a centre of world civilization. and i will not surprised if some of them are fairly advanced.

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