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What Was Scott Wolter's "Templar" Coin?

3/26/2013

98 Comments

 
A few weeks ago on America Unearthed Scott Wolter claimed to have discovered a “Templar” coin that featured Jesus emerging from the Talpiot Tomb, a sepulcher in Jerusalem where the Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici claimed in 2007 that he had found evidence (disputed by experts) that Jesus had been buried alongside his wife, Mary Magdalene. I am neither a medieval scholar nor a numismatist, so I had little to say about the coin the day after the episode aired. But when I learned  Simcha Jacobovici (summarized, with additional details, by James Tabor, who is more cautious) declared this television revelation to be the “smoking gun” proving that the Talpiot Tomb was known to the Templars, I knew something must be wrong.

Regular readers will recall that Wolter told me that he hoped his show would encourage “conversation” and “follow-up.” Since Wolter has raised no objection to fellow alternative historians following up on his coin claim, I thought I’d throw in my two cents, figuratively speaking.

Take a look at the coin (at left). It shows a bearded man wearing a helmet-like headdress, but Scott Wolter and Simcha Jacobovici all claim that this is in fact the pediment of the Talpiot Tomb (at right) because it features a triangle (the pediment) with an inscribed circle. Tabor is more cautious but suggests it represents a temple facade of some sort. Note the absence of additional circles seen at the corners of the triangle on the coin.

Picture
The longer you look, the less there is to see.
A big problem is that Scott Wolter did not talk to numismatists and simply asserted that this coin was minted by the Knights Templar. Well, I did consult with the numismatic literature, and I learned some things. The first thing that I discovered is that the Knights Templar were not recognized as sovereign and therefore did not have the power to mint coins.

The specific coin that Wolter identifies as Templar is actually clearly labeled “JOHANNES REX” (King John) and was minted by John of Brienne during the Frankish occupation of Damietta in 1219. John had been titular King of Jerusalem by marriage since 1210, but actual control of the city had been permanently lost to the Muslims by the treaty signed with Saladin in 1192. He would never have seen the alleged Jesus tomb when this coin was struck.

James Tabor claims that John’s headgear can’t be a crown because a later thirteenth century engraving shows him wearing an open crown. Even though this painting was done almost a century after the fact, Tabor calls it a “contemporary” illustration. But the image it depicts is entirely conventional; the image was not meant as realistic but rather as idealized. Medieval art does not depict things literally. That said, no observer recorded the actual look and shape of the crown of the Crusader state of Jerusalem.

Picture
Manuscript illustration from the late 1200s, nearly a century after the fact.
The first Latin king of Jerusalem in fact wore no crown because he considered it inappropriate to wear a golden tiara where Jesus had worn but thorns. His successors, however, were under no such compunction. The headgear we see John (or Jesus in his stead, following Byzantine coin conventions) wearing on the coin is almost certainly a Byzantine-style crown, which featured a conical or round gold helmet with long golden chains dripping down both sides, dangling over the ears. Such helmet-style crowns were common in the East, but differed from the open-style crowns of the West, the kind a Western-trained artist would have painted. As the former sponsors of the Crusader state, the Byzantines would have provided royal insignia to the Crusader kings, just as they did to their client kings throughout the East.

The Byzantines themselves were in exile at Nicaea, and the Crusaders in charge of Constantinople, but a comparison of John’s headgear to that of the contemporary Greek emperor at Nicaea, Theodore I Komnenos Laskaris, finds an almost perfect duplication of John’s tiara, complete with the prominent round center jewel and jeweled gold tassels dangling on either side of his bearded face. In fact, this crown had been depicted on Byzantine coins and murals for nearly five hundred years and was familiar to the Crusaders. The only difference is that the Byzantine imperial crown was rounder than John’s, possibly due to the heavy artistic stylization on John’s coin. It is perhaps no surprise that within a few years King John would become emperor-regent at Constantinople. 

Since this image of Theodore was made after our period, I am including also a picture of Alexius I Komnenos made by the Byzantines themselves in Middle Ages that shows the same crown. Alexius helped pave the way for the First Crusade, and his crown was probably the model used for any royal insignia provided to the new Crusader state. 

Picture
15th century illustration of Theodore I Laskaris
Picture
Medieval mosaic of Alexius I, Hagia Sophia. Note the prominent arch in the front of the crown.
The only connection between the John of Brienne and the Knights Templar is that the Templars (along with the Hospitallers) served under him during his 1210 trip to Acre. But even this was not his doing. Pope Innocent III paid for their services on the recommendation of King Philip Augustus of France and arranged for them to support the then-Count John of Brienne so he could go to Acre and marry the seventeen-year-old Queen Mary of Jerusalem—which is how he got to be King John in the first place. Dedicated to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and to ridding the Holy Land of Muslims, the Templars fought under King John to reclaim the Kingdom of Jerusalem. When King Philip Augustus’s French forces returned home from Acre, King John had no one left but the Templars and the Hospitallers, which prompted him eventually to return to Europe to seek more soldiers. Sadly, the queen died, prompting a succession crisis when John continued to call himself king while the Holy Roman Emperor insisted that the claim passed to him. What followed is beyond our scope except to say there was no room for a conspiracy here since the alleged conspirators were at each other’s throats. Eventually, the Habsburgs would inherit the claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem and thus the Templar-Tomb secret, but if they were in the on the conspiracy, they had a funny way of showing it: As Catholic sovereigns, they promoted anti-Masonic conspiracy theories.


Bonus: Wolter also claimed in the same episode that Christopher Columbus “married into” the Sinclair family and thus the Holy Bloodline of Jesus. I wondered where that came from, too, so I checked and it’s all over the Holy Bloodline literature. I even saw one book that claimed Columbus’s father-in-law was a Sinclair! Well, as it happens, this is a lie, too. I looked into it, and this is the “connection” between Columbus and the Sinclairs:

Columbus’s wife, Filipa Moniz Perestrelo, had a brother who married the aunt of Tistao vaz Teixeira, the first husband of Catarina vas de Lordelo, whose second husband was the grandson of Henry Sinclair. Even Maury Povich and Jerry Springer wouldn’t see a close family connection there, especially not with the “connection” formed by assuming continuity after a terminated marriage. Caratrina’s choice of a second husband doesn’t retroactively Sinclair-ize her late first husband’s family, no longer her legal relatives, much less their relatives by marriage. Sorry, but this bird just doesn’t fly.

98 Comments
B L
3/26/2013 06:37:29 am

The thing about truth?...It doesn't make you feel slimy after you are exposed to it. Watching American Unearthed always made me feel like I was aiding and abetting a used car salesman just by watching. Thanks for the truth-bath, Jason!

Reply
jerri link
5/12/2013 12:47:31 am

If there"s only 1 thing I know ,scotts ABSOLUTELY right about it"s that the winner of ?battles and the 1s still alive write down their version of history as it was !!! BUT in truth it,s different,templars hisory ending was what ohh yeah they sailed off to the ends of the earth never to be heard from again lol .WRONG I have a sword dated 1359, wirth the name of a city in america on it, 13 ships came together, hmm to make a new home for themselves maybe?it has the hooked X;s on it to, and much more, listen to scott he;s smart smarter then historians who took words for granted that THEY were taught,and didnt look for any themselves

Reply
Rev C H Baldwin
2/10/2015 07:44:15 pm

I do follow most of the subjects that this programs episodes entail. But when it comes to the basis of his believe of the Knights Templar leads more towards the scandal of convincing the uninformed or to bolster his believe in the belief of the lie of the linage of Jesus and Mary and his off springs, the secret of Roman Catholicism. Jesus did have a long linage of births of children that are spiritual births not physical. Thus taking away of Jrsus's perfection and His vow of marriage to an earthly lady who I believe He loved but knew His mission. This thought of degrading Jesus came from a group called the Gnostics and their books who did not pass the test to be included in the 66 books of the bible. I won't go into all the test but a few were: if they who wrote their book was necessary to have been true and not contrary to what was already written. The writer needed to live in that generation and been in Jesus's presence or those who walked close to Jesus. Gnosticism was known as a mystic form of Christianity. Mysticism is known on the Bible as being wrong and rooted in Satanic ritual. It's like naming mankind as God and we become men who became Gods. Paganism, AntiChristian. The relics of Jesus that Gnosticism lifts up is not Bible!!! There is nothing Magical about Gods relics. The Ark of The Covenant was a Throne of God! On earth but God is not on the earth. He's God over and above. When He led the Jews in the wilderness and in the Temple, in Spirit would consume the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb. Jesus became that lamb. But this throne was not set up on! But was a show of power to Judge. Mankind was to be judged but by Christ being that Passover lamb took Gods penalty and He made away for mankind to rectify sin and make it to heaven! Jesus will someday on earth sit on this throne but not today. But through Gnosticism we see the TRUTH perverted with intellect??? The church in history today is recognized as Roman Catholicism. But in history this is not factual. At the council of Nicea Constatine took Roman Mysticism and married it with Christianity. Paganism! There was a true church but it ran from persecution. Throughout Paganism from Babylon, Egyptian, Greek to Roman Mythology was this counter religion but Constatine blends the two together and today we celebrate holidays of Easter and Christmad! This is where the artifacts were given mystic powers! We find a Religion that martyred many True Christians. The pagan religions of the great empires prior to Constatine who copied their religion of 3 gods not of one God! The thre were that of the man, mother, and child. Easily mirroring Gnosticism! But any Jew can tell you that There is One God! Most Christians believe in one god! But it seems even though Bible believing churches, such as most Evangelicals, Pentecostals and Apostolics represent the majority of Christianity by their life as moral, ethical, bible believing with a dedication of living their life with a relationship! This is contrary to the ritualistic churches that are labeled by all secular powered as the Church? But it's not!!! Many who wear this title don't experience any relationship but call out their label that I'm a .......!!!! But those who are Christian are far more! The knights Templar you are right about the symbolism in America, their relationship with masons but also the Knights of Columbus and the Jesuits. The lady liberty, the rise of the new World Order! There was an element of some true believers in the Catholic Church but it's powers that control are similar to the Saducees of the Hebrews of Jesus Day. Secular politicians who used religion to bring about and to lift their own position. Those knights were raiders of the riches of Jerusalem and the Jewish people. They took this stolen wealth and became the banking system of Europe. These banks that later became the central banks of Europe and today our Federal Reserve. They had nobles, royalty killed that did not follow their lead. They lenses money to nations that because of inability to payback this debt these Knights Templar held and controlled national policy much as America is under attack today by those power elite and their control over money! The Love of money is the root of all evil. Those who love it not just because of what it buys but of what power over others that it has to control. It's funny all the effort and time and money too that's placed into finding out about things that have a different story that was not truth. But the Bible is "Truth" and Jesus said He is the Truth. Yet why go all around this subject but never ever notice the elephant of truth in the room. People go out of their way to disprove the Bible, Jesus and true Christianity but if you want the Truth you don't need to look any further to the center of the room and this very large answer that's been their for years! All the answers of all stories but to circumvent truth and accept sime of these far fetched lies to make their point and to make God w

Reply
Matt Mc
3/26/2013 06:46:40 am

While I find American Unearthed aggravating I still enjoy watching it, I cannot say the same about Simcha Jacobovici Naked Archeologist, that show was just painful as was his theories. I love how he would simply solve all the mysteries of the bible in 30 minutes. Plus the padding of B-movie footage was even more painful (and I love B Movies).

Reply
William Dashiell Hammett
3/26/2013 07:08:56 am

Jason,
First, I again want to thank you for your work. Too many people take entertainmnet as truth. We can hope that perhaps Scott W's program will interest people who will the seek out the actual truth (or at least more scientifically based theories).
However, I would like you to answer directly concerning the basic premis of the show, that there is a lot more to American history than what we've been tought in schools.
If you've already done this, as a newcomer to your site I'll admit you probably already have, if you could just link me to you opinion I will thank you.
William

Reply
Cathleen Anderson
3/26/2013 07:35:05 am

That comment about history not being complete or what we get in history books is probably the only thing Wolters actually has right.

They don't cover anything that isn't European inspired, so that leaves out quite a bit. There is lots of diversity among the native cultures all over the Americas.

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William Dashiell Hammett
3/26/2013 11:20:16 pm

I agree completely in that the only thing Wolters actually has right is that our history is incomplete. It probably always will be too, unfortunately.

I further agree that American Unearthed has been very Euro-centric. Perhaps next season he'll do a bit about the Chinese in California or something.

Matt Mc
3/26/2013 07:41:30 am

I would agree that there is a lot of history of the Americas that need to be discovered. From potential early explorers (Polynesians, ect.) to Native Cultures. I think that people should be encourage to look beyond the western viewpoint when looking at that history.

I however think that shows like America Unearthed to more of a disservice to opening peoples minds to the rich history that is in both continents. I promotes a very skewed Eurocentric history that is full of conspiracies and deception. It also (as pointed out by Jason and other here) completely ignores the aboriginal and indigenous people and their achievements and history.

History that is taught in schools can be wrong of course. At least there however students are given a forum to ask and question what they are being taught. In programs like America Unearthed they are not given the chance to ask questions, they are told deceptive half truths to down right fabrications and then showed that the few people who do question them (Like the Roanoke episode) are wrong and crazy. This is propaganda not a program mad to stimulate thought.

So you must ask which is better mediocre sometimes outdated history that many public schools teach, which at least gives the students some forum and chance to ask questions. Or a propaganda style show that serves only to forward a limited theory that is full of conspiracies which ultimately serves to sell more copies of the host books (and future books) in which no one is allowed to question and when someone does question on the show the host says they are an idiot.

These shows do not promote history or promote further exploration, They serve only one purpose to sell add space and future (or current) book sales



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William Dashiell Hammett
3/26/2013 11:44:27 pm

Matt MC - I agree with you and from your response I think I may have been misunderstood.

Let me give an example of my thinking. When Dan Brown's books became huge a lot of people took the "history" in them as (pardon the pun) gospel. However, a small percentage of people actually looked further into the actual history of Jesus, the Holy Grail, etc..., learned a great deal and discovered that what they had been taught was not the full story. This, I think, is a good thing.

Further, I hope that schools are providing a forum for students to question and explore. However, I don't think that is uniformly the case. I remember vividly being ridiculed for questioning how George Washington could have been the first president when he wasn't elected until 1798 but the country was established in 1776. Obviously, Washington was the first president of the office we are familiar with, but my young brain didn't understand that intricacy and didn't understand how you could have a country without a president. No one bothered to explain to me about the Articles of Confederation. I didn't receive any formal instruction on this part of American History until the 200th Celebration of the Constitution forced the educational system to explain it. By which point, I had already done my own research into the matter.

I concur with your opinion that American Unearthed is only providing half truths (at best) that support a predetermined opinion of the host and/or producers. It is entertainment and I only watch it for enjoyment and the “what if” conjecture it provides. It is overwhelmingly Euro centric and does completely ignore other cultures. However, asking if accepted history is accurate is a valuable exercise.

William.

Matt Mc
3/27/2013 01:42:12 am

William,

Thanks for the clarification, we really do agree.

I think anything that encourages people to probe deeper into looking into history is a good thing. In the case of DaVinci Code it did spurn a lot of interest into the subject. What worried me is that I fear most people turned to books like Holy Blood/Holy Grail and the numerous documentaires that aired both after the book and then the movie where made. While some of the docs where balanced separating truth from fiction some just went heavily into the fiction.

There is a fine line when it comes to alternate history. I was very happy when I discovered Jason's blog simply because it works he provides a very good resource to look into the truths behind these claims. He also does what most alt. historians do not and provides links and resources to further your own exploration, which in my opinion is something most Alt. Historians do not do. And a added plus is Jason is a huge Lovecraft fan!

I myself am interested in why people cling to these claims made by these Alt historians, be they ancient alien theorist, grail hunters, ect.. I find it a very interesting study in both how people can be easily swayed and a great study on modern folklore. Folklore is interesting in the age of the internet and more global communications. It has gone from local based tales to one that travel the whole world. DaVinci code is a great example of something that has in my opinion become modern day folklore. Just like the continually growing Masonic conspiracy.

That all said, for the people willing to go beyond just watching the docs or reading popular books, I do believe that these shows do encourage people to explore and learn, and hopefully understand how and why history is recorded and interpreted (both good and bad).

It is a shame that there are few places like this blog, we need more of them. I would love to see more places like this for cryptozoology, a great interest of mine because it deals heavily with folklore.

Varika
3/26/2013 05:52:32 pm

Of course there's a lot more to American history than we've been taught in schools. Schools give a broad overview of history, more of a survey than anything. And there are some AWFUL historical misrepresentations made from a very early age.

Some examples are:

1. "The Pilgrims invented Thanksgiving and we've had it every year since, with turkey as the main dish!" when they weren't even "the Pilgrims," they were "the Puritans," and not even, like ALL the Puritans in Europe, and Thanksgiving has a FAR more complicated history than "La~ it's always been the same since 1652."

2. "The Winter at Valley Forge Was The Worst That Ever Happened," which is in fact something more or less MADE UP for a children's book in the 1940s. There were hardships at Valley Forge, but the winter was not nearly as bad as modern people make out, and not nearly as many soldiers were lost at Valley Forge as claimed. This one particularly irks me, as the following year's wintering, at Morristown, WAS that bad, and the vast majority of people don't seem to even know there was more than one wintering-over during the American Revolution.

3. "The oldest settlement in America was Jamestown!" Even allowing for the first SUCCESSFUL colonization, St. Augustine, FL predates Jamestown by 42 years.

....there are a LOT more that I could go into, but this isn't my blog, it's Mr. Calavito's, so I won't. However, at least these three can be conclusively disproven, and really quite easily. (I did a group paper whose purpose was primary vs. secondary sources on Valley Forge, and we included material from Poor Richard's Almanac, George Washington's letters to the Continental Congress, and local diaries. If anyone wants a resource list, I THINK I can still find the paper on my backup drive.) Scott Walter isn't going after ANY of the ones that can actually be PROVEN to be wrong, he's only gone after crackpot theories that often don't even have a nodding acquaintance with logic, much less evidence.

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Byron DeLear
3/26/2013 06:26:27 pm

Varika--I'd like to peruse your Valley Forge paper. I'm a student of Revolutionary War era histories, and was fortunate to stumble across this minor discovery, which I've shared with Chris Randolph and Jason, of who coined the name of our nation. Last summer it was published by NBC News, C.S. Monitor and several other venues.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48693538

William Dashiell Hammett
3/27/2013 12:02:12 am

Varika,

Thanks for the agreement (I think ). And I would like to respond to your points.

1 – That whole myth of the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving hits personally to me. I remember coming home from Elementary school and telling the story to my family only to have my, older, sister then crush my illusions with the truth.

2 – I think a lot of the focus on Valley Forge is due not only to the belief in the harsh winter but also because it was a “turning point” for the Army. von Stuben having introduce standardized training, organization and tactics transformed the Army into a modern fighting force. The Continental army did lose approximately a quarter of its fighting strength to disease and starvation at Valley Forge, so it was a brutal winter. I know meteorologically the winter of 1780 was worse, but I don’t have casualty figures for that encampment easily available.

3 – I was always taught that Jamestown was the first successful English colony. However, I will grant you your point. Most history is taught in a way that American History doesn’t start until Jamestown.

As far as my opinion of Scott Wolter and American Unearthed, I’ll point to my previous response to Matt.

Byron DeLear – the blog comments won’t let me respond to you directly, but I enjoyed your article. Thank you.

And thank you, Jason, for providing us this “forum” for discussion. I hope I’m not coming across incorrectly as I agree with your points contrary to the pseudo-science we are being inundated with. I was just hoping to get your prospective on teaching people to question accepted historical “truths”.

William.

Jason Colavito link
3/27/2013 01:25:22 am

You're welcome, William. Obviously there are stories that are not true, and how could anyone argue against exposing those falsehoods? One of the issues is that what is taught in primary and secondary school isn't "history" per se but a rather catch-all "social studies" that combines history, sociology, civics, etc. In that context, the sorts of national myths you and Varika mentioned are part of the "story of America" which isn't exactly history. At the university level, history is taught in a more complex manner.

Should schools teach facts rather than myths? Sure. But at the moment we can't manage to get schools to agree to teach science instead of religion, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Steve
3/19/2015 12:16:58 pm

As far as St Augustine being the oldest settlement, that's even up for debate. Some archiologists think its not anymore.

CFC
3/26/2013 07:46:31 am

Matt Mc - I was just about to post and then read your comments. I have nothing more to add. You've said it all.

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Matt Mc
3/26/2013 08:03:42 am

Thanks -

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Aaron Adair link
3/26/2013 10:47:19 am

What is upsetting to me is that James Tabor is a professional, and he has done some really good scholarship. He has some more unusual ideas, but that's true of most everyone in Jesus studies these days. But now he's believing things he saw on TV by a complete non-expert? Oi...

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James Tabor link
3/26/2013 12:01:15 pm

I would suggest you take a look at what I wrote if interested. I never have said anything about this or any other coin being a "smoking gun" for the Talpiot tomb. I have simply blogged about what Wolter and others are saying. My own take on both coins that I noted is that they likely have some kind of "temple" imagery behind the head of the figure, which is the best and most likely explanation for the Talpiot tomb facade. Whether they are connected is speculative and beyond anything in which I claim expertise.

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Jason Colavito link
3/26/2013 12:16:01 pm

My apologies for condensing too much. I will amend the sentence to specify that Simcha and not you made the smoking gun claim.

However, you did originate the claim that it could not be a crown based on the medieval painting, which as far as I can tell was made 100 years after the fact.

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James Tabor link
3/26/2013 12:44:05 pm

Thanks Jason. I don't think it is a crown but what do I know? I said clearly in that post that I find any kind of Templar, Holy Blood, Holy Grail material extremely speculative. I try to stay in first century but when the Talpiot tomb is covered on national TV I try to keep up with things on my blog. On the first century analysis of the Talpiot tombs--as there are two not one, I have published my views in a carefully documented fashion in the book, The Jesus Disovery, as you perhaps know, plus summaries in various blog posts, e.g. http://jamestabor.com/2013/01/09/what-you-have-likely-heard-about-the-talpiot-jesus-tomb-the-top-20-fictions/

Jason Colavito link
3/26/2013 12:48:52 pm

I appreciate your comments, and I'm always happy to correct my blog when I make a mistake.

Jaroslav Folda wrote in "Crusader Art in the Holy Land" 2005 that it was a "Byzantine-style crown," and pointed to additional examples of Crusader coins with the same crown. I think you'll find this material helpful.

CFC
3/26/2013 12:18:56 pm

Where might we find a scientific paper on the topic or is it all speculation?

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Jason Colavito link
3/26/2013 12:26:07 pm

Sure: Here's a link to a discussion in "Crusader Art in the Holy Land," which supports my view that it is a Byzantine-style crown: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xifq5OE7174C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=John+of+Brienne+coinage&source=bl&ots=boNl_ra74u&sig=PtrXbKVwNRoADCQuEdX4RfjW3xs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ei5SUdm1EMvD4AP72IGACA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=John%20of%20Brienne%20coinage&f=false

The problem I have with the idea that it's a man standing before a temple is that it's missing the whole top of the head. That's why I feel it's a crown.

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Byron DeLear
3/26/2013 07:00:22 pm

The Laskaris story and dynasty is fascinating -- if memory serves, the wandering, misdirected army of the Fourth Crusade sacked Constantinople and the Byzantines retreated to Nicaea where Theodoros consolidated power and became the Emperor of Nicaea. The Christian on Christian violence between East and West solidified the schism --- it was really just politics being played by Venice merchants that opportunistically directed the smaller than promised crusader army toward Constantinople. The Crusaders didn't have the money to go to Egypt or wherever they were headed to fight the Saracens.

Regarding the Hospitallers and Templars--- the excavations of the Hospitaller fortress and citadel at Akko are amazing – just enter “Hospitaller Akko” in google images to take a look. In 1210, when John of Brienne was in Akko there were about 81 years left for the crusaders in the Middle East, with Akko (Acre) being the last to fall.

Jason, regarding the Talpiot Tomb, I’d be interested to know how the odds were arrived at -- how the chances of finding that collection of Jesus family names in one tomb was 1 in 175. (if I remember correctly)

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Jason Colavito link
3/27/2013 01:12:15 am

I do not know how the odds were calculated; I can't find them even in the alternative literature. If you look at the Talpiot Tomb's Wikipedia page there is a very long, dull discussion of statistics related to the tomb, and there the credulous believers put the odds at as much as 1 million to 1 in favor of it being Christ's tomb. Skeptics, of course, have very different figures. I think, frankly, they pulled the 175:1 number out of the air by multiplying out a bunch of assumptions about the frequency of names.

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Jerry Lutgen link
3/27/2013 05:17:57 pm

Yes, you are right skeptics provide very different odds than I presented on the program. It is correct that this is due largely to the fact that caculating these odds is very dependent on a long series of important historical and and less so on some statistical assumptions. Unfortunately, the program was not nearly long enough for me to go into a detailed list of the assumptions used to compute the odds that I presented.

It was not so nice of you to suggest that these numbers were pulled out of the air, especially when you confess that you do not know how the odds were calculated.

The result I gave comes from a peer reviewed article in the Annals of Applied Statistics, March 2008 by professor Andrey Feuerverger. In his article he shows that using a novel statistical approach and given a reasonable set of historical assumptions that the odds that this tomb should be associated with the family tomb of Jesus vary from a low of 167 to 1 to a high of 1675 to 1. I have confirmed these calculations. During the show I had intended to quote the most conservative end of the range of his results, but my memory was slightly faulty and I stated the odds to be 175 to 1. So, I was slightly off, but these results were hardly pulled out of the air.

For a discussion about the impact of various historical assumptions please see my article "The Talpiot Tomb: What are the Odds? at http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/tomb357926.shtml

Jason Colavito link
3/27/2013 11:31:26 pm

You're right that it wasn't very nice of me. But on the other hand it also isn't very nice for the show you appeared on to (a) lie about the "Templar" coin, (b) imply a 2,000-year conspiracy that doesn't exist, (c) claim to have special access to "truth," and (d) refuse to engage with the substantive criticism that the Talpiot Tomb has nothing to do with the Biblical figures.

Feuerverger's statistic relies on some very troubling assumptions that are little better than hot air, frankly, since they cannot be proved to have a basis in demonstrable fact.

Jerry Lutgen link
3/28/2013 04:35:34 am

In your expert opinion which assumptions are "hot air"?

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Jason Colavito link
3/28/2013 06:20:50 am

I am not an expert in either Biblical history or mathematics and would never pretend to be. But there are troubling assumptions. For example, the analysis assumes Mary Magdalene is Jesus' wife, which cannot be proved. The analysis next assumes that the 1,000 tombs of the period found in Jerusalem are all the tombs that existed and that Jesus' family had one of those 1,000. There is no evidence that the Nazareth family had a Jerusalem tomb. In short, Feuerverger's statistics work only by accepting a certain narrative about Christ that cannot be independently verified.

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Jerry Lutgen link
3/28/2013 09:30:19 am

What independently verified set of assumptions would you make?

BTW, your three statements of fact are wrong.

1. The analysis assumes that it would "surprising" to find a name associated with Mary Magdalene in a randomly drawn sample of names. It does not assume that the Jesus son of Joseph was married to the Mariamene in this tomb. Now I would agree it is a pretty short leap of logic to conclude that if Mary Magdalene was in the tomb that she would have been married to Jesus or perhaps some other family member.

2. The estimate for the number of tombs actually comes from another historian/statistician. While it certainly is an estimate based on a chain of historical assumptions, this part of the calculation has not been widely disputed. Even if the estimate were off by a factor of 2 or 3, it would not signfincantly change the meaning of the statistical result.

3. Yes, there are those that suggest that Jesus would have been buried in Nazareth, but to make a long story short that simply is not likely. We know that Jesus had a signficant connection with the Jerusalem area during his life (think Bethany and Bethlehem). We also know that James the brother of Jesus became the head of the Judeo-Christians after the death of Jeus and that this took place in Jerusralem. These facts are not in dispute by anybody that I know of.

So, it does not appear to me that these assumptions are the source of the "hot air" that you detect.

Jason Colavito link
3/28/2013 09:47:54 am

That's sort of my point, Jerry; you can't make assumptions and then claim that the resulting statistics are more than the sum of the inputs. I'll spot you point 2 because I don't know enough about the archaeology of the region to have anything useful to say about the number of tombs. I'm also not sure I follow the argument of how you feel a poor family from Nazareth would have afforded this tomb.

Why is it surprising to find the name Mariamene? Variants on Mary are among the most common female names in the period, and further there is no documentary evidence that Mary Magdalene was named Mariamene (Greek) rather than another variant. This is another assumption.

I take it you disagree with Amos Kloner, Randy Ingermanson, and Jay Cost?

Christopher Randolph
4/1/2013 07:40:03 am

"There is no evidence that the Nazareth family had a Jerusalem tomb."

There's even pretty shaky evidence that there was any Nazareth in the 1st century!

Gunn Sinclair
3/28/2013 05:24:33 pm

This isn't meant to be in any particular order here, but may I just add that millions of people across earth believe that Jesus did not remain "buried." It's odd to hear speculation about fragments of Jesus' bones in a box, when one believes his body was transfigured and received up into Heaven.

After Jesus came back to life, He appeared to His disciples, showing them the scars where the soldiers had pounded nails through His hands and feet.

Jesus ate with His disciples to prove to them that He really was alive. He appeared to His disciples over a forty-day period and spoke with them about the Kingdom of God.

On one occasion, Jesus appeared to more than five hundred of His disciples at the same time. (1 Cor. 15:6): "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brothers at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep." - American KJV

Do eye-witnesses count?

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Jerry Lutgen link
3/28/2013 10:42:50 am

We are not going to get anywhere arguing this point by point in a blog, so I am going to stop.

Yes, I disagree with Amos Kloner for more reasons than we could ever hope to discuss here.

I am very familiar with the work of Randy Ingermanson. He has written a very nice paper on this subject and I recommend it to your readers. To make a very long story short, I disagree with some of the historical assumptions he makes in his paper.

You know , I don't get upset when someone disagrees with me. I do get upset when someone implies that the results I present are pulled out of the air or were just hot air. Come to think of it, Randy Ingermanson is a good role model for how to handle disageement. This might be another reason to study his work.

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Jason Colavito link
3/28/2013 10:53:35 am

I'm sorry if I offended you. A difficulty I have encountered in reviewing America Unearthed is that the producers have chopped the material into such small, disconnected sound bytes that it is impossible to treat the assertions as fully developed ideas. Joe Rose, for example, spoke out about how his ideas were edited to make him say things he never meant.

In my reviews of the program I tried to distinguish the cartoon version of stories presented on the show from their more developed counterparts, and I've tried to distinguish as much as is possible between the characters the show concocted out of real people and the individuals behind them. Unfortunately, the real people and their TV counterparts share bodies and names.

The character they made of you on the show sounded like he was spouting random assertions absent facts. I know that you have more developed and nuanced ideas, but your character did not.

You can, I trust, see how this is a challenge in trying to review claims made on a TV show, especially one that provides no supporting material to back up its assertions.

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str
3/29/2013 09:27:37 pm

Great post!

I only was wondering what you meant by "As Catholic sovereigns, they [the Habsburgs] promoted anti-Masonic conspiracy theories."

Until the 18th century - that is for most of the Habsburg's reign in Germany/Austria and for all of their reign in Spain - Masons did not exist. When they existed, Emperor Francis I, a Habsburg by marriage, was himself a mason and his sons were at least sympathizers, despite anti-masonic rulings by the Pope. This basically only leaves the 19th century for any promotion of "anti-Masonic conspiracy theories."

On another note, not liking the masons or being opposed to the French revolution is not akin to holding, let alone promoting, conspiracy theories.

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Jason Colavito link
3/29/2013 11:36:11 pm

You are quite right that the Habsburg relationship to Masonry was more complicated that I knew. Francis II (HRE, later Francis I of Austria) was anti-Masonic after the French Revolution and was convinced the Masons were part of a Revolutionary anti-monarchical conspiracy, which is what I was thinking of, though he and his predecessors supported Masonry earlier. Franz Joseph banned Masonry and gave imperial permission for the work of anti-Masonic writers in Austria, but weirdly offered no such restrictions in Hungary after the Compromise of 1867.

Thanks again for pointing out this is more complex than I first indicated.

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Roy7
4/4/2013 01:48:42 pm

The carving on the tomb is pretty basic but it's clearly a Greek or Roman style temple facade. Specifically, it's a facade of the Jerusalem Temple. It's the same kind of imagery you'll see on a Torah Shrine. These Shrines were used to hold the Scroll Chest in Synagogues. And central to their deisgn is an arched or angled roof along with a circle or half circle right under it. What is known as the chevron and circle are the pediment and what is traditionally called a conch shell. Here are some examples of it:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/images/Torah%20niche%20lintel.jpg
http://dkiel.com/GreeceTurkey/Sardis/P1060525.jpg
http://www.crescentcityjewishnews.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Aron_Hakodesh.jpg

Talpiot Tomb just like these other symbolic representations has the roof and conch shell centered directly over the "door" or entrance. One could look at the Beit Shearim Burial Caves or Zechariah’s Tomb as the eventual progression of this practice.

Using Temple symbology was a reminder of God's covenant to his people. It was an powerful way to express one belief in the Messiah and with his return will be the construction of a new Temple. It's precisely why Simon bar Kokhba had coins minted with the Temple on them to encourage revolt.

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Jason Colavito link
4/4/2013 02:08:26 pm

Shhhh! You'll just encourage Wolter to think he's discovered DOZENS of Jesus tombs!

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Suzanne Olsson link
10/9/2013 03:56:15 pm

Oh Dear. I may be in error jumping in to this conversation because I too am an 'alternate theorist'...everything from ancient aliens-religion connections to lost tombs and Jesus surviving crucifixion. That being clarified, when I saw the picture of the Talpiot tomb for the first time, I recognized it as a 'tamga'..I researched and found several families identified with minor variations of that symbol. Each family had its own symbol They remained intact for centuries, enabling historians and genealogists to follow the families moves and migrations..I was especially interested in the 1st century coins from Gandhara and the Kushan eras...the family tamgas were placed on dishes and cups, tools, weapons, tents, carpeting and textiles... I will also add this about the Talpiot tomb being the tomb of Jesus...it could be, but not for any of the reasons proposed...I wrote about this in my book by the way, and immediately contacted Simcha and Tabor, but neither seemed interested...both were deeply entrenched in supporting their theories, and I respect that.. However, history shows that the bones of loved ones were often dug up, moved when families moved, divided when families separated...the bones of Jesus could have been divided and moved to several locations.. There is precedence for this historically. Well, I wont say more.. I just wanted to make these suggestions for inquiring minds..Peace and blessings...and interesting blog by the way! :-)

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Pacal
12/1/2013 11:46:42 am

Jason, reading this I thought you were far too kind to Jerry Lutgen, who is engaged in what amounts to statistical, pulling it out of his ass nonsense. After all what are the odds that the Jesus described in the Gospels, who lived practically all of his life in Galilee. was the son of a at best middle class family, the accounts of whose life do not mention marriage or any children, and the accounts of his death say he was buried in another mans tomb and whose alleged body disappeared was in fact buried in the so-called Jesus family tomb? You have to reject much of the Gospel's account of Jesus to accept that notion. also the letters of Paul.

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Jason Colavito link
12/1/2013 11:52:20 am

Almost every fringe theory involves rejecting large swaths of evidence and cherry picking only the parts that fit the fringe idea. I agree that if the "Jesus family tomb" is really just that, then the New Testament is wrong, and if the New Testament is wrong, then there wasn't any reason to go looking for the tomb in the first place!

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Beautiful bob Henry
9/15/2014 03:31:34 pm

Don Colavito,
Splendid reasoning. the first cherry picking was according, to my studies, done by Constantine and his mother, after which they strung the collection of books known as the New Testament, together. I miss the old days of one faith, one baptism and one Lord, Jesus .... The Christ, Amen.

Vernon sisco
1/29/2016 07:07:47 pm

I noticed that the monument that is carved in reverse of the Nicolas Poulsen painting is interesting. Why, the staffs that the shepherds AR holding in the paint come straight down. But in the carving the two staffs meet at the bottom creating a V. Just food for thought. As he mentioned earlier the V is a symbol for woman. ????

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Ron link
3/11/2016 06:36:26 am

Your stretching beyond facts.

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Ron
3/11/2016 06:48:17 am

I totally agree with James Tabor... The coin is a smoking gun... What does the icon mean? I believe this is related to the Egyptian sun/solar disc. In the movie Lost tomb of Jesus they notice a cross or rosette on a ossuary... This same insignia is found in ancient art works.
There's a new energy discovery called dark matter producing dark energy or Antihydrogen fusion or Relativistic Perturbation Mantle ... This energy although called dark is not always unseen . The holy grail maybe light... The king of light!
Rpmantle.com

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Anthony G
6/25/2022 02:27:03 pm

This figure has shown up a few times in works of Cartography. A person wearing a Conical Hat with Circle. Most notably on the Sebastian Cabot Map. Not exactly sure whom this is supposed to represent, however, we have some ideas.

Interesting comments section. Too bad it's clogged with Spam. Thank you for the informational resource!

Reply

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